So my 240v 50amp NEMA 6-50 receptacle for my welder and kiln has to be GFCI protected?

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Комментарии : 533

@garageworker 3 года назад

Wow, thank you for answering my question. Your channel is truly an asset to RU-vid. Thanks again.

@SparkyChannel 3 года назад

I'm so glad you liked it. Answering questions is really a challenge sometimes but I learn a lot that way!

@colorado-boycreations6011 2 года назад

@@SparkyChannel great video, but that nema 6-50 has no place to land the grounded conductor. What do you do with the neutral?

@snap-off5383 2 года назад

@@colorado-boycreations6011 you connect the neutral pigtail of the GFCI to the neutral bus in the panel (to power the GFCI electronics) and leave the neutral output of the GFCI open. just connect the two hot leg output terminals to each hot leg. It will still trip if all the current leaving on one hot leg isn't returning on the other.

@TheModelmaker123 3 года назад

I can't believe this clip got a (one) thumbs down! Geez, Do they have any idea the time and effort required to bring quality, free educational material? Thanks Sparky

@SparkyChannel 3 года назад

Thanks so much!

@IceBergGeo 3 года назад

Even the good videos have 1-3% of thumbs down...

@benjaminkline4855 3 года назад

Plot twist the fan on the welder is 120 volt which makes the neutral a conductor. A 4 prong plug with a separate ground must be used.

@seephor 3 года назад

I don't think a well designed welder will use the ground as a conductor in any circumstance. If it requires 120 as well as 240 then the required receptacle should be as such.

@ericfraser7543 3 года назад

@Fred Wills I also was scratching my head after watching this video... GFCI Breakers require a neutral wire, current never flows on the ground wire unless there is a short. Unless you have a welder with a four prong outlet, I don't believe you can GFCI protect it or for that matter even plug it into a GFCI protected outlet.

@CantKillMe 3 года назад

there no way a welder can run on one of them I have tryed it and it pops them all the time

@philiphorner31 3 года назад

So no more welding. We don't work in Josef Stolin's America.

@wim0104 3 года назад

@@philiphorner31 ffs. just by a modern welder.

@CantKillMe 3 года назад

@@wim0104 I am a fab welder I run welders all the time and like my pops said if it not brock dont replace them they cost to much to thaw them out the door and get new ones

@WOLF-tw7nx 3 года назад

Lwrongo been doing it for decades

@89Ayten 2 года назад

I have a 6-50 receptacle in my garage without a gfci breaker. Breakin' the law every day.

@greg778123 2 года назад

love last year’s price of that gfci breaker

@farmerjim-fat-man-do 3 года назад

Haven’t seen the 2020 code book yet but I heard there have been some stupid changes that sounds like is being driven by equipment manufacturers instead of safety and common sense. I would think there has to be exceptions for garage receptacles for dedicated equipment. A welder is going to trip a GFCI especially an archaic stick welder. A large air compressor will likely trip a GFCI, I know my 30 year 50 amp old compressor would.

@KevinCoop1 3 года назад

Unfortunately there were no exceptions that apply to them.

@tikigodsrule2317 3 года назад

Yep there fix is well go out and buy new appliances.

@benchociej2435 2 года назад

By definition that means your appliance is dangerous

@rogerf3622 3 года назад

I’m all for safety but consider that not all local codes follow everything in the national code. Check your local code.

@SparkyChannel 3 года назад

True, thanks!

@spencerjoplin2885 3 года назад

Where can I buy a 251V receptacle?

@Nick-bh1fy 3 года назад

Home Depot or any home improvement store

@jfbeam 3 года назад

Not in-stock, btw. (NEMA 7's) I can _order_ them from anywhere.

@HBSuccess 3 года назад

😂 good one.

@MY-bw2nb 3 года назад

Read the whole thing section 2 says if your floor is at grade or below grade for garages which have potential for flooding if your floor is above grade it is NOT necessary. Which means at or below grade is considered a damp location which is same rule for bathroom and outdoor outlets. You even showed the code and the paragraphs below but you did not read the entirety of paragraphs before interpreting the code ⚠️⚠️⚠️⚠️‼

@JNaimoli 3 года назад

The text relating to “below grade level” applies to accessory buildings. Read 210.8(A)(1) again. it says Garages And not Garages Or.... which means garages are required.

@brentoconnor6127 3 года назад

@Comrade Vlad exactly. A and B that have the expressed condition. They expressed condition applies to both subjects of the sentence. Unfortunately, building inspectors don’t seem to be English majors, and don’t read the code that way.

@benchociej2435 2 года назад

@Comrade Vlad gfcis won't trip on the primary side of a transformer if the secondary side leaks

@benchociej2435 2 года назад

@@brentoconnor6127 it's vague, is the problem. they should have put "garages" on their own line for clarity if that's what they meant

@mothman-jz8ug 3 года назад

GFCI on a welder is a GREAT idea. This could generate a large chunk of revenue for equipment manufacturers. The companies should cough up the cash get AFCI's for welder receptacles in the next edition. THAT should be fun.

@RaggedsEdge 3 года назад

More and more it does seem like code is changing for the sake of the manufacturer over the safety of the end user.

@SparkyChannel 3 года назад

I do understand. Thanks! ⚡

@greg778123 2 года назад

Then comes the 3rd edition combo gfci/afci 😄

@greg778123 2 года назад

The best protection that would suit a welder receptacle would be a isolation transformer it would Isolate the AC system from the welding transformer another time but it would be pricey now days

@KevinCoop1 3 года назад

Sparky, It would have been nice if you had explained that this new 2020 NEC requirement is not for existing installations that were inspected and approved prior to the adoption by the Authority Having Jurisdiction.

@SparkyChannel 3 года назад

Correct, thanks!

@normferguson2769 3 года назад

Sometimes that means that if you installed it with a permit and got inspected you would be grandfathered. If you installed it 2 months ago with no inspection sticker then the inspector could make you install the GFCI.

@KevinCoop1 3 года назад

@@normferguson2769 Correct. But the 2020 NEC would have to be accepted and adopted by the AHJ. You would also see if they made an ordinance to exempt that rule. Generally they do not. It could be your state, county, or city based on where you live.

@ajbrant3296 3 года назад

Also the municipality where you are working MAY have other rules in place that are more stringent than the NEC. And yes the NEW CODE is not automatically adopted. I have worked in areas where the code being worked to is a few code cycles older

@marcw1867 2 года назад

If there is no neutral it is a 240 volt circuit. If it is for a welder then it is not a personnel device like a grinder or drill. Also the outlet might be on a safety switch and for a dedicated purpose on a single circuit.

@FixthisCD 2 года назад

well neutral and ground are the same potential, so there is 120v difference there. Either way I am never gfci protecting a welder ;)

@benchociej2435 2 года назад

the purpose of the receptacle doesn't matter for 210.8

@mothman-jz8ug 5 месяцев назад

Of course it "needs" GFCI! The manufacturers are counting on that money: Why do you think they make payoffs to NFPA to get this stuff included in code? I'm just waiting for breakers with WiFi connection to send notifications to smartphones is included. Don't laugh - I think we will eventually see something like this required.

@ZiggyTheHamster 3 года назад

There are some exceptions, mostly following the rule of thumb of if the appliance is expected to be unplugged more than a few times. EVSEs typically do not require GFCIs (they also are themselves GFCIs), and seems like some types of garage heaters don't require it. I'd guess a kiln or welder would require it since they're likely not nearly permanently plugged in. I think if you hard-wired them that you wouldn't need to GFCI protect them. Though I don't think either appliance would have issues if GFCI protected. An EVSE might, since it's also a GFCI, but if you're using a quality modern GFCI breaker, I don't think you'll get nuisance trips like you might with GFCIs from the 80s.

@SparkyChannel 3 года назад

Thanks Keith!

@DuffyHomoHabilis 3 года назад

Great discussion all around. But, there is another "solution" : put your welder's receptacle in a "habitable space." So build some walls around it, put in a light and a Barcolounger next to it, and now it's no longer "not intended as habitable rooms and limited to storage areas..." The welder can be a side table! And all you need are REALLY long (and thick) welding cables. Ok, this is ridiculous sarcasm, and I know it opens up a can of worms to meet codes for "habitable space," not only for the NEC, but for all the other codes as well. Just thinking outside the box and having a little fun! 😁

@jfbeam 3 года назад

A(1) through A(11) is basically the entire house. As I said upon seeing the title... if it's in a garage, laundry room, or outside, "YES"... for a _residence_ -- luckily, my welder stays at an industrial location.

@a..d5518 2 года назад

😂

@jack_brooks 3 года назад

So this would mean that you would have to run your welder in your living room if you wanted to avoid paying 4x as much for a breaker. I'm going to have to move my couch.

@SparkyChannel 3 года назад

LOL! Good one!

@MindKontrolleProject 3 года назад

I love a good bonfire 🔥

@boriskarloff598 3 года назад

The wife's gonna be pissed when I get grinding dust all over the white rug.

@KevinCoop1 3 года назад

That would work but, the smoke detectors will get very annoying!

@jasoncanmore5838 3 года назад

Hey Bill, any info about 2020 code requirements for outdoor main disconnects ( Fireman's Switch)?

@sylvesterstewart868 3 года назад

You've tripped the diversity breaker with the term "fireman" ( 112 different "genders" as of 2020.)

@jamess1787 3 года назад

@@sylvesterstewart868 what about 2021?

@sylvesterstewart868 3 года назад

@@jamess1787 Probably 200 by now they need their own code book.

@rogerhodges7656 2 года назад

Does this mean that chargers for Electric Vehicles need ground failt protection?

@bmoulas 2 года назад

I installed all of my EVSE's with direct wiring to avoid figuring this out. I have 3, one is a Chargepoint Home 50 and it's supplied by a 70A breaker, I wanted to future proof as much as I could. A also have an Emporia and a JuiceBox 40. The Emporia and JuiceBox are with 50A breakers, but again all 3 are direct wired, no NEMA outlets.

@WahooNo2 3 месяца назад

I put mine on a 60 amp GFCI spa box and I use the outlet to charge my car and also split the power to two 20 amp outlets for power tools etc.

@seanalexander2847 3 года назад

How does arc fault and ground fault protection play in to a subpanel feeder lines (100 amp or more subpanel)? In other words, do the feeder lines need to be protected in the main or subpanel when all of the subpanel circuits will be appropriately protected?

@TheSidneySmith 3 года назад

the biggest problem with all of these GFCI protected circuits is equipment that CAN NOT run on a GFCI circuit. One such example is a mini split AC unit. Many of these use an inverter and the moment the inverter kicks on, the GFCI trips. Found that out after setting one up for quick switching to generator on an inside/outside wall power set up.

@jfbeam 3 года назад

Hard wired connections don't have to be protected. Simple enough to fix. (or do you regularly intend to move that unit around?)

@SparkyChannel 3 года назад

Thanks, great information!

@TheSidneySmith 3 года назад

@@jfbeam it has to be able to plug into house voltage and generator voltage independently. It's for hurricane back up in case of multiple days of power outage. Unit is hard mounted, power wire is a 120v plug in. There's also outlets inside to supply for plug in lights and extensions to refrigerators to keep foods safe within the power envelop of the generator.

@jfbeam 3 года назад

@@TheSidneySmith See also: protected load panel.

@markc2643 3 года назад

Another example is a 5W Fluorescent lamp with a series ballast in a microscope. I've seen several GFCI's in the same circuit pop when turning the power switch OFF. Why they put a GFCI outlet at each station in a branch, I have no idea.

@CC-jv3wm 3 года назад

We can still hardly get single pole gf/af breakers let alone a 50 amp two pole gf.... What am I supposed to do? Not hook anything up? People still gotta get shit done. Were gonna have so much breaker replacement work I might throw up.

@SparkyChannel 3 года назад

I understand.

@markchidester6239 3 года назад

How about something that is hard wired in a garage? An example is a heater mounted up high on a wall having a dedicated circuit and wired directly to the heater with no receptical.

@SparkyChannel 3 года назад

The code is only for receptacles in this case.

@HBSuccess 3 года назад

Nope don’t need GFCI (yet...lol give it time)

@KY4TRK 3 года назад

Code Wise. If not new construction does this even apply ❓ If before code dating of said item in question ❓

@spelunkerd 3 года назад

Noobie here. If the welder uses an arm of the input to run some of their electronics for 120V use, there must be an imbalance of current between the two input arms. Some of the neutral current will cancel because it is opposite phase, so it won't be as simple as comparing input to neutral wire output like a normal GFCI. Is the GFCI at the breaker smart enough to recognize that and not cause nuisance tripping?

@albeit65 3 года назад

DISCLAIMER- ONLY FOR DISCUSSION. So, if a separate part of the device required another leg, I think you would have to run a 120/240 circuit such as in a dryer or range.

@jack_brooks 3 года назад

I wondered the same thing, so I looked up the Siemen's GFCI (SIE_SS_GFCI.pdf) wiring diagram and it states "NOTE: Load neutral does not have to be connected.". It shows in the diagram that it doesn't connect anything in the breaker. The breaker only appears to look at the two hot lines which would make sense, because otherwise you would have the problem you were describing.

@MY-bw2nb 3 года назад

You don't need to worry about that or try to overthink it. Your welder does not need any additional wiring you just plug in your 240v 50 a plug into outlet the machine is already wired to get 120 volts off 1 leg the electronics power draw is negligible and will not cause an imbalance. That would mean you couldn't make coffee and use your stove at the same time because you might upset the balance stove are pretty much the same as welders still a double pole 240 volt breaker they just have a neutral along with ground but they still get the power from the same 2 legs . 240 volt appliances or equipment balance loads better than 120 volt appliances or equipment because there is potential to a bunch of appliances plugged in to same leg of panel even if they are on separate breakers if you look at a breaker panel if you were too only need 120 volts for every thing you own the panels are designed in a way the legs are staggered if you have a row of 120 volt breakers breakers 13579 is on one leg breakers 2468 is on other leg so now if you were to say run breaker 13579 all in the kitchen and breakers 2468 in the bedroom this would cause an unbalanced load because all the kitchen appliances have high demand whereas the bedroom would use low demand like tv bedside lights alarm clock this is why breakers are organized by load demand and 240 volt breakers use 2 breaker slots 1 for each leg so no don't worry about imbalance in your welder.

@MY-bw2nb 3 года назад

Go back and watch this guy's vid at 4.25 it states that gfci is only required in garage that the floor is at or below grade which means damp location like bathroom and outdoor outlets if your garage floor is above grade gfci breakers not required because this is considered a dry location

@spelunkerd 3 года назад

@@jb9072 Excellent response, thank you.

@clayaustin9339 3 года назад

#2? That appears to apply to garages if their floor is below grade? Otherwise,. it would read 2) Garages, and 3) accessory buildings if ? yada yada yada., I'm not sure who to call now that I'm curious. One other thing,...it has been known for decades that running a welder on a gfci protected circuit is never reliable by nature. I'm not sure how the idiots at the NEC could think it would be reliable (or do they think nobody in america has a welder in their garage). I think they've (the welding people, not the NEC people) been trying to find a solution for that one ever since the 80s. Please correct me if I'm wrong, I'm wrong a lot and every time I am, I learn something.

@steveurbach3093 3 года назад

Try on a AFCI. :) This year many of my fellow Holiday Lighters were tripping their AFCI by blinking their show lights very rapidly during their shows. Overkill like this leads to folk disabling ALL safety related equipment (GFCI trips in heavy rains are a pain as it is, but at least it WAS a real fault)

@richardcranium5839 3 года назад

thank the people with the mindset that changing your own oil in your driveway is an eyesore and want you to be fined. "thats a residence not an industrial site" lol

@jfbeam 3 года назад

@@richardcranium5839 "It's an environmental hazard!" (I suppose they think I'm just pouring it down the storm drain, or a toilet.) But yes, HOA's despise people doing anything but parking in their driveway. (and sometimes, even that.)

@SparkyChannel 3 года назад

@@jfbeam I heard of a case where a guy had a truck that was too big for his garage so he parked it in the driveway and is HOA fined him for that!

@jfbeam 3 года назад

@@SparkyChannel Oh, mine would like to complain about my van (Nissan NV2500), but they know I have better lawyers. They've complained about it being parked in "overflow" parking -- which is by covenant for "guests", but everyone, include the board, parks there. _constantly, and continuously_ (I may keep parking it here, even after buying a bigger shop. Current shop floods, so I'm not leaving my new van there.)

@GuyFromJupiter 2 года назад

Would a welder not cause a ton of nuisance trips on a GFCI breaker? It only takes a 5mA current differential to trip a GFCI circuit, so running up to 50A through a circuit that is likely to have a direct connection to the ground seems like a bad use case for GFCI protection.

@andrewt9204 2 года назад

It didn't for me, although mine is only 120v, but I assume that doesn't matter. It did however keep tripping an AFCI breaker that I had to use one time. I'm guessing the inverter or the huge amount of electrical noise tripped arc detection. If your welder's ground electrode has a better connection to the work piece than the ground, it shouldn't be an issue for GFCI. Which is a good thing, bad grounding on your workpiece will make for bad or inconsistent welds.

@SixTwoHemi Год назад

Exactly

@Gallardo6669 3 года назад

My neighbors with old pool installation don't give a S**t about gfci, even with telling them the risks as a professional...

@SparkyChannel 3 года назад

Wow!

@cmh2111 2 года назад

Ill bet they have pool lights as well.

@Progrocker70 3 года назад

$80 not cheap for a GFCI breaker. Perhaps the kiln manufacturers could just put the GFCI in the plug like they do with hair dryers and room air conditioners now.

@thomasmarable6818 2 года назад

They can put a gfci in the plug but still have to have gfci on the outlet per code. The code does not cover whats being plugged in. I hard wired my welder into a disconnect, no gfci required

@dukeraul624 2 года назад

I’ll be hardwiring my electric dryers and ovens

@SparkyChannel 2 года назад

Excellent.

@gravytraining4362 3 года назад

I just got nabbed on this one a couple months ago. Plug in electric car charger. I didn't know but the inspector did! I paid $125 for that exact Siemens breaker from Viking Electric and it cost me about an hour of my time. Live and lean. I'm enjoying your videos. Thanks for the effort. 20+ year master

@gravytraining4362 3 года назад

Another work around would be to hardwire your stuff if that's an option.

@SparkyChannel 3 года назад

Thanks! Yes, those GFCI breakers aren't cheap!

@SparkyChannel 3 года назад

@@gravytraining4362 Excellent!

@jamminwrenches860 2 года назад

I really hate the high failure rates of GFCI breakers. Seems like some last a few months, others a few years but way sooner than they should they go bad and trip the fault protection even with nothing attached. 15 bucks for a regular breaker and almost 200 for GFCI that only lasts a year or two at most. I have had a few still going fine but the majority fail.

@court2379 2 года назад

And what you find is the GFCI goes in for the inspection, and comes out for the real world. Or so I hear...

@willschultz5452 2 года назад

@@court2379 Yes, Exactly what happens. My customers want that done all the time they buy the GFCI's and arc fault breakers and after the inspection they go back to the store 😂. They say I'm not spending thousands of dollars on breakers when I can spend $100

@willschultz5452 2 года назад

The one place I was working on they required GFCI and arc fault breakers. I put them in and after inspection the customer got all standard breakers and took the others back and got a refund. He said I'm not spending a $1000 on circuit breakers!🙄

@Aepek 3 года назад

Like that you do show the code, and code books for us to get if want to. Not easy to “interpret” codes sometimes, have always said.....it’s like they write them the way they do on purpose to confuse ppl😂; BUT, over the years they have gotten better with explaining and adding examples. Cheers✌🏻

@SparkyChannel 3 года назад

Yes, I think that showing the code and discussing it is the only way to go. The reality is that different inspectors will interpret these codes in different ways sometimes and these discussions such as you see in these comment sections will prepare us for the same discussions we might have with inspectors. Thanks!

@ajbrant3296 3 года назад

I think they are written that way so that it looks good on legal paperwork. Just my opinion. Also remember that the NEC is the MINIMUM needed

@court2379 3 года назад

So 240V is two phase 120V right... Now it doesn't apply. All I can say is, why don't we fix more non-existent problems to quadruple the cost of the equipment.

@jamesreizner2673 3 года назад

No, it's single phase.

@court2379 3 года назад

@@jamesreizner2673 It's really not. I don't know why we call it it single though... The phases are 180° apart.

@MrMindlink 3 года назад

As James Reizner indicated... 240V is single phase, 120V is split phase (2 @ 1/2 of 240V Single phase), also referred to as single-phase three-wire. This is probably a moot point if the intent is to save money and not buy the expensive breaker, as "M Y" points out below, the code indicates that if your garage is above grade, this breaker is not required.

@benchociej2435 2 года назад

@@court2379 all 180* two phase signals are one phase signals

@court2379 2 года назад

@@benchociej2435 Well I guess we should call 208V single phase 3 wire then. It doesn't matter if you are putting a load across phases. You still have separate phases supplied making this wire count convention stupid, instead of calling it what it really is.

@blake4844 3 года назад

A welder doesn't use a reference to neutral. So that expensive breaker isn't protecting personnel from anything beyond a standard breaker would IMO

@qball3835 3 года назад

Sure it protects personnel. 240 doesn't use neutral in normal usage, its not just a welder thing. The breaker is still going to detect an imbalance between the split phase and will trip if it out of balance between 4-6 mA.

@blake4844 3 года назад

@@qball3835thanks, i wasn't thinking about imbalance.

@jfbeam 3 года назад

Sure it will. "What goes out must come back" is the same for hot-hot as a hot-neutral. My only question is why that breaker appears to have a neutral leg. (I assume that's for some oddball case, like a system with dual 120v power supplies???)

@qball3835 3 года назад

@@jfbeam No, as of the 2020 NEC it will be the norm for most all breakers now. It is an AFCI breaker. While I don't believe in normal usage the pigtail would be used, I could see maybe some scenarios that if there is a fault (GFI or Arc) current may need to flow back through the panel neutral.

@kc9scott 3 года назад

@@jfbeam For the breaker pictured, my guess is the 3 output screws include a neutral so that, if needed, you could wire it to a receptacle that has a neutral.

@pointedspider 3 года назад

I love the break downs! Otherwise it would be like this!!! Tonight on Dateline: a young woman, murdered inside her own house.... Was it her boyfriend..... Yes it was!!!

@SparkyChannel 3 года назад

LOL! Good one! I know exactly what you mean. I love that these videos cause discussion. I don't even mind people saying I'm wrong as long as they give a good argument. :)

@rrknl5187 3 года назад

@@SparkyChannel That's how we learn!!

@SparkyChannel 3 года назад

@@rrknl5187 Exactly!

@javiergiraldez1647 3 года назад

By 2020 code, yes if is in your garage, shed, or separated structure. Also Dryer and Range/Oven

@SparkyChannel 3 года назад

Thanks!

@thefritzy81 3 года назад

Separated structure. No. That isn't a location in 210.8. Dryer. Yes. Laundry area listed in 210.8. Oven. Maybe. If the oven receptacle is within 6' of the sink. Yes. >6' no.

@gottfriedschuss5999 2 года назад

I'm late to the game, but... Another great video! I have a couple of comments about some comments for this video. For the sparkies who may read this, I apologize in advance for telling you things that you already know. To be precise, the North American residential electrical system is called '120/240 split phase', sometimes also known as an 'Edison three wire' system. By definition, it is single phase. There is an exception to "By definition..." and that is 3-phase high leg delta (AKA wild leg, orange leg, 120/240V 3-phase, etc. depending on the local vernacular); this is beyond the scope of this comment, and is _almost_ never found in a residence. Note, the voltages are _120_ and _240_ and not 125 not 115 not 110 nor 220 nor 230. 115 and 230 V are the correct ratings for loads, as there is a presumptive voltage drop between the source and the load. 125 and 250 volts is the correct _rating_ for devices (e.g., receptacles) for 120 volt and 240 volt branch circuits, respectively. Further, notice that 120/240 split phase does _not_ use the phrase, '2-phase'. Split phase is decidedly _not_ 2-phase! For the record, 2-phase systems do exist. I believe there are still some 2-phase systems in downtown Philadelphia (if you know for sure, please correct my geography). The two phases in a 2-phase system are 90º out of phase (to be more precise, one phase leads the other by 90º). The two legs of a split phase system are 180º apart. I don't believe any electricity providers still _generate_ 2-phase electricity (again, if you know for sure, please correct me). By generate, I mean with a prime mover turning a generator. Utilities do provide 2-phase power to existing customers. They do this through the use of a Scott-Tee transformer arrangement (or, rarely, with a motor generator); both cases start with 3-phase electricity. As to why North America doesn't use higher voltage and 3-phase for residential service, this is the result of a common situation. In the USA, Edison started his distribution as 120/240V _DC_ . AC won the current wars, because it could be 'shipped' further by stepping up the voltage with transformers, which couldn't be done with DC. The US stayed with the 120/240 systems, because it was more cost-effective to keep the existing infrastructure, and the momentum was in that direction. (This is a much abbreviated description, check the WWW for more details, in particular, check 'Kathy Loves Physics' on RU-vid). When a country or region is the first to develop or deploy a new service, be it electricity, phone, internet, etc., it is often the case that other countries/regions will take advantage of lessons learned, new developments, etc. and may have a better version of that service. Too frequently, in the US, tax laws inhibit taking advantage of newer/better technologies. I offer the phone system in the USA as an example. For local service, it is decidedly a copper wire based system for local transport of terrestrial calls. Each of the local exchange companies, LECs, have tens of billions of dollars of sunk assets in this copper plant. US tax code prevents the LECs from taking a tax write off for this asset. Instead, they have to depreciate the copper plant over a long period of time. Thus, it is cost prohibitive, in many cases, for the LECs to abandon the copper plant and instead provide fiber to the home. Be well & Best regards, Gottfried

@court2379 2 года назад

I would guess any "2-phase" system would be 120 degrees apart, not 90. As they would be two legs of a three phase system. I don't know why they just wouldn't center tap the transformer though and get proper 180 deg two phase. I have to say the terminology on this is just idiotic. Redefine that old method of non 180deg phases and call the power used across the country what is actually is. 120V 2 phase. Instead we have to go around stating how many wires we are using. The behavior/terminology also tends to make people not understand what is really happening.

@gottfriedschuss5999 2 года назад

@@court2379 With respect, your guess is wrong. These old 2-phase systems that still operate in downtown Philadelphia, PA and, I believe, downtown Hartford, CT operate 90 degrees out of phase, not 120 degrees as you 'guess'. This is a fact and as such is not subject to guessing nor debate. See, for example, Wikipedia, "Two-Phase Electric Power". With a Scott Tee transformer, one can derive 2-phase electric power from 3-phase, that has a 90º phase separation, due to the clever vector addition imposed by this transformer arrangement. The idea behind polyphase electrical systems is to 'smooth out' the peaks and valleys of single phase electric power. As a result, a 2-phase system delivers sqrt(2) times as much power as the equivalent single-phase system. Similarly, a 3-phase system delivers sqrt(3) times as much power as the equivalent single-phase system. A 120/240 split-phase system is _not_ a polyphase system and as such does not have a multiplicative gain, because the two legs, the so-called hot legs (not phases), are 180º out of phase. Also, split-phase, in this context, means that a single phase is 'split' by the grounded center tap, which creates the neutral. The number of wires _is_ critically important. For example, I could have a 3-wire, corner-grounded, 240 volt, 3-phase service, which is decidedly different from a 4-wire, 120/240 volt, high-leg delta service, which is completely different from a 4-wire, 120/208 volt, wye service. I would argue that the nomenclature for North American electrical service is precisely clear: 1. Nearly all residences are served by 120/240 volt, split phase, _single-phase_ services. There are exceptions, but let's stay out of the weeds here. I repeat, 120/240 volt, split phase is not polyphase; it is single phase. 2. 3-phase services vary by voltage (e.g. 120/240, 240, 120/208, 240/480, 480, 277/480, 600, etc.) and configuration (star/wye or delta), grounding (corner, center tap, or star ground), and number of wires (three or four) 3. 2-phase systems are rare, but they do exist. These systems are decidedly in the weeds. I only bring them up to contrast with split-phase single phase, which is not 2-phase. Be well & Best regards, Gottfried

@court2379 2 года назад

I will have to look at where they are tapping that 90deg phase out. That is odd.

@gilbertonino5703 3 года назад

Sometimes there is a car crash outside in the street, often actually... How do I keep my apparatuses safe and keep them safe from the electric error?

@pattognozzi 3 года назад

Hi Bill, I’ve got a code question. I’ve found conflicting information which has me confused so I wanted to ask you. Regarding a 240 circuit- can a second receptacle be added to an existing 240 circuit? Example- a 30 amp circuit supplies an electric dryer in a laundry room. Can an additional 30 amp receptacle be added to the garage using that dryer circuit?

@AsHellBored 3 года назад

Laundry room circuits can branch but can't leave the laundry room. So, in directly, no is the answer.

@pattognozzi 3 года назад

@@AsHellBored Thanks!

@cmh2111 2 года назад

@@AsHellBored Sounds like somebody want to add a second 30 amp receptacle down stream so they can back feed a generator.

@zerosparky9510 3 года назад

The customer goes screaming. Oh well. Exactly show code. If they don't like it. Say sorry and leave. Yes going to be hard. But if something did happen. You will be in big trouble.

@SparkyChannel 3 года назад

Thanks Roger!

@mojunk19 3 года назад

And make sure that you get the right GFCI breaker. There’s a 120 - 240 2 pole breaker and there’s a 240 2 pole breaker. The difference is that one has neutral capability and the other is for 240 only. Sounds confusing but it the difference in if you’re going to need a neutral or not.

@1768ify 3 года назад

I don’t think that there is a neutral for NEMA 6, only for NEMA 14. Correct me if I am wrong, and thank you for pointing out the difference.

@mojunk19 3 года назад

@@1768ify it’s not a code issue. But if you are going to need a neutral for your equipment like if it has a lite or pump or any accessories that uses 120 volts the 240 volt breaker is not what I would buy. If you take a meter on a 240 gfic breaker from one leg to ground it will trip that breaker.

@SparkyChannel 3 года назад

@@1768ify Mike, you're correct.

@randydunbar1901 3 года назад

Your Interpretaion is Spot On

@ibrahimddh93 3 года назад

Bob can you please help....I have an AC mini split for my attached garage. It says 15amp. The AC disconnect will be on the backside (outside) brick wall. Can I use 30amp double breaker, 10ga romex? Do I have to use pipe through the brick (2ft through the wall)? I see everyone on RU-vid using 30amp for mini splits. My county uses 2014 code.

@chanceltw 3 года назад

Your mini-split compressor should have two amp ratings - MCA and MOP. Minimum Circuit Ampacity will determine the gauge of wire you use, and Maximum Overcurrent Protection will determine the breaker rating. There are exceptions in the code for HVAC equipment that allow you to size the breaker to the equipment and not the wire.

@ibrahimddh93 3 года назад

@@chanceltw the MCA is 15.0A and the Max Fuse says 15.0A. I'm not seeing MOP on the lable.

@ibrahimddh93 3 года назад

@@chanceltw do I use 15amp two pole and 14ga wire? Just seems small

@Nidkidful 3 года назад

@@ibrahimddh93 use the bigger wire, but put a 15a breaker on it. And do put conduit through the wall. That way, if you have a larger load later, such as a larger unit, you don't have to repull the wire.

@ibrahimddh93 3 года назад

@@Nidkidful ok thanks. I orginally purchased 10/3 wire for it.

@Genesislights 2 года назад

these receptacles has no neutral wire, so no neutral goes in the GFCI breaker then, only 2 hots.

@brentoconnor6127 3 года назад

The code you showed specifically says garages that have a floor at or below grade level. Therefore, the grade level near the garage matters.

@SparkyChannel 3 года назад

You're not the only one that feels that way. You might check out my video: Does a Garage Need GFCI if the Floor is Above Grade?: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-ON9LmYEONFc.html

@snap-off5383 2 года назад

No, it specifically said "garages AND ALSO accessory buildings with floors at or below grade" That's grouped like this: [garages] AND ALSO [accessory buildings with floors at or below grade] not like this: [garages & accessory buildings with floors at or below grade]

@brentoconnor6127 2 года назад

@@snap-off5383 That's not how English works. The code is worded very poorly if that is what they meant.

@brentoconnor6127 2 года назад

@@snap-off5383 if they intended garages in all grade configurations to be included, then garages would be a separate line instead of being included with accessory bldgs in line B of the paragraph.

@snap-off5383 2 года назад

@@brentoconnor6127 "If my aunt had nads, she'd be my uncle." "Garages and also" is crystal clear.

@StewCal65 3 года назад

So this is new for 2020?

@SparkyChannel 3 года назад

Yes, the shaded areas at 2:47 are new for 2020.

@HEmustincrease.Imustdecrease 3 года назад

I haven’t read down further on the comments. So, this may have been mentioned. But, this GFCI protection is also required in A/C condensers and electric water heaters. These units don’t have a neutral to connect to in the units. However, the pigtail on the breaker still need to land on the neutral bar. This is so that the mechanism inside the breaker will still trip with an imbalance.

@MikeSully01 3 года назад

I don't have a code book in front of me, but I thought this only applied to receptacles, not hardwired equipment.

@JoseGarcia-hq2ef 3 года назад

A/C condensers and water heaters are hard wired not cord and plug connected so GFCI is not applicable in these circumstances

@thefritzy81 3 года назад

@@JoseGarcia-hq2efall outdoor outlets are required to be gfci not just receptacles. A/C requires gfci protection.

@JoseGarcia-hq2ef 3 года назад

@@thefritzy81 send me the NEC code article on GFCI for central air units

@thefritzy81 3 года назад

@@JoseGarcia-hq2ef 210.8(f)

@playnationtoday 3 года назад

Also remember, If the load (welder, kiln) is “hardwired” (if that’s allowed by the manufacturer) it doesn’t need to be GFCI protected, based on 2020.

@playnationtoday 3 года назад

The GFCI requirements in 210.8A are for receptacles only!

@billywhitener6202 3 года назад

So does it need to be (4) wire or or how does it work with out a neutral to connect to the breaker

@l.george7517 3 года назад

Billy, Neutral not needed, but available if appliance needs it.

@billywhitener6202 3 года назад

@@l.george7517 the 240 welder receptacle requires only (3)3 wires So the GFCI breaker requires a neutral/ for it to be correct or not ?

@thefritzy81 3 года назад

@@billywhitener6202 a gfci does not need a neutral load to provide protection.

@isettech 3 года назад

Is there an exception for motorhome outlets? Most motorhome electrical panels have neutral and ground bonded, as normal for a dwelling service panel. As such, plugging these into a GFCI on a house will trip the breaker as the return current is now shared by the Ground and Neutral, tripping the GFCI in the home.

@JR-yl8qi 3 года назад

It shouldn't bonded in the coach, the bonding is supposed further back towards the meter or main breaker. The RV breaker is treated as a sub panel. Now your generator (if you have one) would be bonded. Just because most have them bonded doesn't mean it's right... I know of someone who had an electrical fire due to the bonding and an unbalanced load. Totally destroyed the coach and nearly burn down his and and neighbor's house.

@isettech 3 года назад

@@JR-yl8qi For me the solution is an Isolation Transformer. Generator and the coach panal are neutral bonded along with the generator. Shore power is similar to the star delta configuration of pole or pad utility transformers. Most RV's are bonded at the panel. This is very common.

@spookytowie7838 3 года назад

Plot twist. You will run a welder on a GFCI. It'll trip it the minute you pull the trigger. Same goes for an electric range aka stove. Even arc fault breakers trip on most all 240 appliances. I know this because I was a certified Master Electrician.

@SparkyChannel 3 года назад

Yes, a lot of people are complaining about this part of the code. We want safety but we also want practicality.

@spookytowie7838 3 года назад

@@SparkyChannel nothing worse than a call back on a brand new property all because of a code that we all know is b.s.. Common sense has gone out the window.

@lunchboxproductions1183 3 года назад

I'm a welder by trade and I've never had an issue running a welder from a GFCI recep, however have had nothing but problems with arc fault protected receps.

@allensandven0 3 года назад

Seems like the use of the word “personnel could be inferred as business or employee, if it was intended all wouldn’t they use occupants, way to convoluted

@cmh2111 2 года назад

Certified Master Electrician? Never heard of it. Master Electrician yes, but a Certified Master Electrician? What is it.

@charletonzimmerman4205 3 года назад

A way around this is put a ""NON-FUSED" Disconnect, With-in sight, of Welder, & "HARD WIRE" with a Piece, of "Greenfield flex-able " metal conduit", "Reverse engineering as a "PLUG & RECPT" serves as a "DISCONNECT".

@donruggles8937 3 года назад

You are absolutely correct the only trouble is in our area they are making us use strain relief which isn't a bad idea but if the unit came with a cord and plug you are now changing the UL listing on it and some inspectors are balking at that.

@charletonzimmerman4205 3 года назад

@@donruggles8937 Yes I can see there point, "COLLEGE BOYZ" But as a Master electrician, I've seen, Welder plugs burn -up, "OVERHEAT" As, cord is # 8, copper, & welder during duty cycle, over draws. I had a 70 amp, single phase welder, used a 100 amp disconnect. My point, most welders don't have "WHEELS" so that makes them "FIXED" in place. NOT PORTABLE.

@jgoddard0757 3 года назад

The interpretation that matters is your AHJ. After all, by code, that’s part of their job.

@SparkyChannel 3 года назад

You're 100% correct. But if it's important it's good to have a code book handy.

@jgoddard0757 3 года назад

Agreed. If I have any questions or code isn’t crystal clear I’ll talk with my AHJ and get his input beforehand. BTW I very much like this channel. Thanks for putting the time & effort to make it really good. :)

@SparkyChannel 3 года назад

@@jgoddard0757 Thanks Jim!

@SparkyChannel 3 года назад

The reality is that different inspectors and AHJ's will interpret these codes in different ways sometimes and these discussions such as you see in these comment sections will prepare us for the same discussions we might have with inspectors and AHJ's. (authority having jurisdiction)

@farmerjim-fat-man-do 3 года назад

Some AHJ have interesting interpretations of the code. Varies between inspectors in the same jurisdiction. Best to know who is coming for inspection and make it the way they like it.

@JohnSmith-lw2bm 3 года назад

If everything needs a arc fault or gfci on it, why do we even have regular breakers still??? I am surprised big government hasn’t mandated them away like the incandescent 60w light bulb.

@wim0104 3 года назад

give it 10 years? all breakers in western europe have an extra gfci-like device on them. but on the other hand it took 'em 50 years to mandate metal breaker panels...

@wim0104 3 года назад

we're still RMA'ing older AFCI's by the dozen...

@philiphorner31 3 года назад

Trump got rid of the 60w light bulb ban

@SuperVstech 3 года назад

Cause, if there is no PLUG/SOCKET, the GFCI is not required...

@Yarba 3 года назад

The National Electrical Code is created by and for insurance companies to mitigate loss, that's why everything has an Underwriters laboratories sticker or it isn't code legal. The only input big government has is to slow down the rate of progress.

@collkell 2 года назад

Not adopted in Oregon. Only applies to 15 or 20amp receptacle. The amendment didn't remove the less than 50amp verbage, which makes it a little confusing, however, that still applies because the receptacle is less than 50. Let me know if your interpretation of the Oregon amendment matches mine.

@gbinman 2 года назад

there are various jurisdictions that do not require the GFCI as described above. In most cases, there's no requirement to retrofit existing installations. However, whether enforced or not, the NEC does set the safety standards for the nation. Jurisdictions can add even stricter codes. In my garage the ceiling outlet is not GFCI protected as that wasn't required in 1991. It is now, but there's no requirement to retrofit.

@petestetson7477 2 года назад

I noticed on the video that the breaker has the white coil wire, but the welder outlet had 2 hots and a ground. Do you still take the white coil wire to the neutral bus or where does it terminate?

@sapreaper Год назад

Yes, always terminate the white to neutral buss.

3 года назад

hey, I have a different question, if I have a Europian 240V device, and i brought a regular EU extension cord, cut the plug, and replaced it with a NEMA 6-50P plug would my EU devices work?

@SparkyChannel 3 года назад

I really don't know. Perhaps another viewer can answer that.

@mikeclarke952 3 года назад

EU works at 50Hz, so an EU motor runs a bit faster at 60Hz here and will draw a little less current then normal (EU) so will have a little less torque here, but it will work. If it has electronics in it, then it has rectified DC power supply and they are rated for 50-60Hz, so you're good there too.

@peltiereric6497 Год назад

That GFCI stuff in the garage makes sense for the average home but it is extremely problematic for for certain types of machines that a lot of people have in their garage now. Over the last 10 years the amount of people who do metalworking and have machines like 2x72” grinders or milling machines that use VFD’s can’t have a GFCI anywhere in that circuit because the VFD will create feedback that will trip another GFCI outlet elsewhere in that Breakers Circuit even if the machine is plugged into a standard non GFCI outlet

@schlomoshekelstein908 6 месяцев назад

good to know. so eschew the GFCI i guess

@mikekiser7799 3 месяца назад

Some vfds have a setting for use with gfis. I’m currently running three KB vfds on gfci circuits with no problem. A bit more noise is the downside.

@mikeclarke3005 2 года назад

Sorry but many changes in the NEC lately are just crap, and bad policy whereas use to think of it about safety not just code, but now with all the BS, think has gotten more political than safety minded, has just gone way overboard. hoping most of my Local aJC does not adopt the newer versions anytime soon.

@cheddarcheese 2 года назад

The folks that write the code are the manufactures. Do the manufacture want to sell lower cost items or higher cost items?

@chrisjarvis4449 Месяц назад

ok so hard wire it with a serves disconnect

@willschultz5452 2 года назад

Just mount the receptacle in the livingroom and run a extension cord out to the garage to use the welder😂

@richardcranium5839 3 года назад

i think nec didnt consider a 240 2 wire +ground as compared to a 240 3 wire +ground. since the 3 wire used on some dryers and ranges internally split the legs into unbalanced circuits where as 2 wire circuits are almost aways balanced now days.

@SparkyChannel 3 года назад

Thanks Richard!

@jkbrown5496 3 года назад

The 240v 3 wire + Ground GFCI would have to sense current between the two hots as well as current on the neutral then sum them to see if there was an imbalance. Probably why it costs $80. I suppose you could wrap all three around the sense toroid and only generate a trip if there's an imbalance. I certainly wouldn't want to put an AFCI on an arc welder. I doubt their sensing algorithms are that good.

@timothydillon6421 3 года назад

@@jkbrown5496 what about a dryer that uses 240 heating element but 120 fan and 120 tumbler motor?

@johndespard3477 2 года назад

What size wire for a kiln that draws 48 amps? An old kiln site said to use a 60A breaker, and #6 wire. But an electrical engineer said that I should use a larger wire and maybe even a breaker?

@ttrbykir 2 года назад

60a breaker #4 gauge wire. Im not a professional in any way lol. You want the amps to be 80% of the rating of the circuit breaker. 48/60= .8 . Or you can calculate the rating needed by (Amps required)x 1.25=amps rating of circuit breaker. So for you 48x1.25=60.

@johndespard3477 2 года назад

@@ttrbykir hey, thanks for the reply! Somehow I misread the plate on the kiln. It's actually draws 38A not 48. I called the manufacturer who couldn't tell me what awg to use, but did say that a 50a breaker is what the kiln was designed for. I ended up buying a 6/2 romex style cable. I think because the sub panel will be in a detached garage, I need gfci protection. So I was going to buy a gfci 50a breaker. I am a bit concerned about a Voltage drop, as the best place for the kiln is 50 feet (of wire) away from the panel. But I guess worse case scenario, I'll just have trouble getting up to higher temperatures.

@robertwikeljr-1522 11 месяцев назад

Ground fault no problem . What I don't understand is ground (or neutral) wire location is at top of "6-50" receptacle (or even 120 v outlets) if plug pulls away from outlet any contact hits ground before hot - WHY is plug cord always coming off side of neutral (ground 120 v) so cord must loop UP before going down to appliances. No one has been able to explain that to me, instructor just shrugged and said that is how they are made .

@johncreevy8966 3 года назад

What is the impact to installing said breaker for an outlet used for MIG, TIG and stick welders and a plasma cutter? Will the use of those machines by their nature of how they work trip the breaker and make the outlet useless?

@jacobbotden5641 3 года назад

Yes in many cases it will, large heaters like Kilms can have large leakage currents to ground and trip the breaker repeatedly. I see a good market for borrowed breakers that get changed out once the inspector leaves.

@southtowntn 3 года назад

A GFCI trips when current goes "missing" from the circuit. In the case with a 240v circuit, L1 and L2 current is unbalanced (not equal). With welders, the GFCI is on the primary side of the transformer in a welder and the arc is on the secondary side of the transformer. Only the primary side of the circuit is fault protected.

@benchociej2435 2 года назад

@@jacobbotden5641 If your welder is leaking to ground it's broken

@rogerf3622 2 года назад

Many devices that may be plugged into that outlet (car chargers, pressure washers, etc) already have GFCI built into them. Plugging a GFCI protected device into a GFCI receptacle will cause false triggering. That would be a nightmare for a car charger. Also note the subjective term “easily accessible”. If the plug can’t be easily reached like behind a dryer or high on a wall, GFCI is not required. Also note that local codes can vary greatly. You may find in your location that GFCI is not required.

@Krankie_V 2 года назад

It says the GFCI reset has to be accessible. In the case of a 240v circuit that's in the breaker panel not on the device itself.

@ewicky 2 года назад

"Plugging a GFCI protected device into a GFCI receptacle will cause false triggering" No, it won't. Literally millions of GFCI-protected hair dryers are plugged into already-GFCI protected bathroom receptacles every day with zero false tripping.

@rogerf3622 2 года назад

Probably a poor choice of words on my part. I should have said “connecting”. You are right @Erik Wickstrom, the mere act of plugging a 120v GFCI device into a GFCI protected device usually won’t cause a trigger. BUT having a GFCI connected to another GFCI will cause false triggering at some time. This is exactly why the instructions, for example on the Tesla wall connector, say explicitly don’t do it. Also NEC says don’t do it. The wall connector (what some call a charger) provides the GFCI protection by itself and you won’t waste $100+ on a GFCI breaker that is not needed and will cause you suffering in the future. @Krankie V I think this is what your are saying. A car connector (charger) has built-in GFCI and will either be auto-reset or reset by turning power off then on at the breaker. Some may have a side button to press.

@malteser0212 3 года назад

One of the reasons I Don't like the american electrical system. GFCI's are an expensive rarity over there. In germany a GFCI is standard and must be the first link in the electrics in your house or Shop. Also our "normal" plugs are 230V, our high power ones have three phases and put out an equivalent of 380V. And most houses got 380V power lines as our stoves are powered by these. Our system is safer, cheaper and better for high power system. I really hope one day america will change its system.

@SparkyChannel 3 года назад

OK, thanks.

@suzukichopper 3 года назад

One question, if you live in Germany, why do you care what the United States does with its code? Why do you have this "hope" that they'll change something that has absolutely zero impact on you?

@malteser0212 3 года назад

@@suzukichopper because it causes many unneccessary deaths mainly.

@jomerc 3 года назад

@@malteser0212 can you find these deaths?

@charletonzimmerman4205 2 года назад

@@jomerc Bath GFCI's, were added in , 1973, US National electric code, cause, Wifes, would toast, bread in their, husbands "BATH", Show me the , Toast since then?

@FlyGuy2000 2 года назад

The code only applies to a garage with a floor "at or below grade level". If the garage is on a slab two inches higher than the surrounding driveway, is it considered to be above grade level and exempt from the GFCI requirement?

@danrich6448 2 года назад

No. #2 says Garages (period) and also accessory buildings with floors at or blah blah blah.... It's 2 separate situations.

@dontbanmebrodontbanme5403 Год назад

Dan already answered your question, so I'll just add one more thing. Check your state to determine which year's code they follow. For example, where I live, we follow 2017's code, which doesn't require GFCI protection. In my case, I'm installing a NEMA 14-50 outlet for my car. From what I've read, EVSE equipment seems to have issues with GFCI breakers and lands up tripping it way too often. Just an fyi.

@ThatOldMan2112 9 месяцев назад

@@danrich6448 That's not how language works for codes and legal writings. The period you refer to is not there. Nor is a comma, which is what would usually separate individual items or phrases. They did mess the wording up a little by adding "also" in there. But because "garages" and "accessory buildings" are included in the same clause all wording in that clause applies to both. Had they worded it "...garages (,) and accessory buildings that have a floor..." then the garage would be separated from the wording about the floor level - but they did not, so it is not. However, I am doubting any inspector is going to consider a 4" slab which is laying on the ground but sticking 2" above it to actually be "above grade level", since it also sticks 2" below grade.

@dontbanmebrodontbanme5403 Год назад

So where I live, they're still using the 2017 code and I therefore don't need GFCI. I'm installing a NEMA 14-50 receptacle for my car. From what I've read, GFCI breakers seem to mess with cars charging and it keeps tripping the breaker. Finally, the EVSE equipment I've been looking at has GFCI protection built into it. Is this the reason why there are issues? GFCI breaker combined with EVSE that already has GFCI protection, causes tripping? I'm not sure. The most important thing is to find out what year's code your state is using to make sure you're up to code. It's easy enough to pop out a breaker and replace it with a GFCI version if your area updates its code.

@JimSpence 3 года назад

So basically to use my parents welding outlet, nema 6-30R to charge my Tesla using the power adapter with its 14-50P is not possible, even with an adapter/“dog bone” etc? Sorry if this has been covered in the almost 400 comments

@AsHellBored 3 года назад

Possible, but if and when your Tesla draws more than 30A, the breaker will pop. And swapping the breaker is a fire Hazzard

@Sparkeycarp 2 года назад

@@AsHellBored You can set the Tesla to not over draw the breaker.

@Sparkeycarp 2 года назад

I am an electrician certified by Tesla. I install Tesla chargers all the time. They do not have a terminal for a neutral wire.

@a..d5518 2 года назад

@@Sparkeycarp And don't the Tesla chargers have a built-in GFCI?

@snap-off5383 2 года назад

you need to pull or open the breaker, then open the outlet/receptacle and look at the gauge of the conductors, to see if they're capable of more amps if so you can change the breaker and outlet to a 14-50 The breaker, conductors, and outlet must be rated at the higher amp capacity, and will work together at that higher power level. If the wires are already maxed out at 30 amps, then you're relegated to replacing them or limiting the charger's draw.

@johnnoel3416 3 года назад

This is a big deal! Another application I could see is circuits run for electric cars! They use a 240v receptacle as well

@IceBergGeo 3 года назад

Not all have receptacles... Some are hard wired in. I'll have to refer to the code if those will still need GFCI protection, but it's in my truck, it's cold out and I'm on my way to bed.

@tikigodsrule2317 3 года назад

Its my understanding the Tesla charger for the car has a GFCI built in.

@johnnoel3416 3 года назад

@@tikigodsrule2317 I’m sure it does, but that still wouldn’t mean the outlet has gfci protection. That’s what the code is now requiring

@tikigodsrule2317 3 года назад

I should have added the charger is direct wired in this case. The output of the charger has an outlet which is protected by a GFCI in the charger.

@DomManInT1 3 года назад

But, not required in a business. My garage is a business.

@KevinCoop1 3 года назад

If your business is classified as a “Commercial Garage” by NEC and you are building a new building in an area that has adopted the 2020 NEC, then the 240 volt single phase receptacles in or on the building are required to be GFCI. NEC 511.12 references article 210.8. Respectfully, Kevin

@DomManInT1 3 года назад

@@KevinCoop1 Yeah. We know. You missed the joke. Some people rarely have real fun in life and enjoy it.

@dgpix4956 2 года назад

what about an EV circuit for a electric vehicle.

@Krankie_V 2 года назад

It's the same thing. A single phase 240 receptacle which is 120v hot to ground. It doesn't matter what equipment is used on the receptacle...

@dgpix4956 2 года назад

@@Krankie_V isn't it a dedicated circuit like a dryer or range or something.

@Krankie_V 2 года назад

@@dgpix4956 it's still a receptacle is it not? Or is the charger actually hardwired in and can't be unplugged? It might not make a difference either way anyway.

@dgpix4956 2 года назад

@@Krankie_V thanks

@andrewt9204 2 года назад

@@Krankie_V From reading the mike holt forum, someone quoted a line in there there that says installing per manufacturers instructions can supersede those requirements. I assume that probably only applies to UL/ETL listed equipment... Most wall mounted EVSE's already have ground fault protection and integrity checks built in. The one I have specifically states not to install a GFCI breaker. I did because the AHJ required me to. Kind of makes sense, you could unplug the EVSE and present a hazard. Especially with 240 plugs, they are sometimes difficult to unplug and you instinctively want to grasp the back side of the plug to get more grip, where you could easily touch the live prongs. All those 6-50/14-50/14-30 plugs should have some kind of handle on them. I have a 6-50 to 14-50 adapter that has a handle on it to pull the plug out, it's really nice. However, my EVSE ground integrity check trips the GFCI breaker as soon as it initiates. So after the inspection passed I replaced it with a normal breaker. My EVSE is UL listed. I skirted all the GFCI requirement anyway by eventually just hard-wiring the EVSE, which doesn't require a GFCI breaker.

@johnparton92 3 года назад

Not necessary at all. It's Overkill but you can legally do that.

@SparkyChannel 3 года назад

Thanks John!

@suzukichopper 3 года назад

Code means it's necessary.

@snap-off5383 2 года назад

@@suzukichopper . . . to pass inspection. Finished that for you. Ever notice how many of the GFCI breakers are opened at the store?

@suzukichopper 2 года назад

@@snap-off5383 Until you have a fire or someone gets electrocuted and killed. Just because there are open boxes at the store doesn't mean the code is wrong or there's a problem with the things. It just means there's maybe a lot of people playing with something they probably shouldn't. Oh also! If it wasn't necessary at all there wouldn't be a code for it. Ground rods are a good example of that. "Phhhttttt, they're just some copper in the earth, why do they need a code?". This is where I roll my eyes haha

@snap-off5383 2 года назад

@@suzukichopper Dude. "tamper proof outlets" are part of code. Literally "baby proofed outlets" we've only lived without them for decades, and now they're "necessary because they're code"? That's backward It should be code because its necessary, and baby-proofed outlets is OBVIOUSLY *NOT NECESSARY*. Some of the code actually is stupid. As soon as "code" was adopted companies started their campaigns to rig the boards and processes to get their equipment deemed "necessary".

@mandomonica Год назад

Thank you! I very much appreciate the way you use the code in your explanation.

@machintelligence 3 года назад

GFCI breakers come in all voltages and sizes. I encountered a 480 volt 600 amp three phase GFCI at a U-Haul center/storage facility. It tripped out when there was a ground fault in a 5 horse power air compressor motor located in the service bay. When a breaker that size trips it sounds like a shot. I couldn't at first see why a 30 amp fused load would cause the main breaker for the whole facility to trip until I read the rating plate and realized it was a GFCI.

@IceBergGeo 3 года назад

A lot of MCBs are ground fault protected. They aren't your typical 6mA though... They test for amps (between 10 and 100, and often more.)

@tedmcdonald3377 3 года назад

I think your interpretation is spot on and I like the fact that if we're not sure which way to interpret it, just go with the safest way. May be more costly, but only want to do it once!

@SparkyChannel 3 года назад

That's my philosophy. Realistically, the thing to do is pass your inspection and get on to the next job. :)

@scott_meyer 3 года назад

Should one check screw tightness on outlets on a regular basis? A few weeks ago I replaced a broken weather cover on an outside outlet. I checked the screws while I had the circuit deenergized. Each screw took about 1/8 th of a turn to snug up. So I decided to check all of the outlets in the garage GFI chain. GFI outlet was tight, 2nd one was ok, 3rd one was loose on the neutral side. I wonder how many other outlets in the house are that way? House was built in 2005.

@kenbrown2808 3 года назад

hard to say whether they loosened due to expansion and contraction of the conductor, or if they just weren't set properly. I've seen 50 year old connections still as tight as they day they were made up, and I've seen much younger connections that could be snugged up.

@scott_meyer 3 года назад

@@kenbrown2808 It's all copper. My assumption is they weren't fully tight at installation.

@kenbrown2808 3 года назад

@@scott_meyer copper is still ductile. it's nowhere near as bad as small gauge aluminum, but it can still compress in connectors.

@rupe53 3 года назад

@@kenbrown2808 ... I'm going with "not set properly" and I will tell you how I came to this conclusion. In my job as a generator tech one of my duties is to double check everything when starting a new unit. After almost 25 years I have gotten to know my electrical subcontractors and I also know who works alone versus who works as a team. 9 times out of 10 the wires are tight on one end but not the other, which tells me different guys have a different feel for what's tight, or it's in an odd corner and the guy used his left hand so not snug to the same level. IOW, same material, bought at the same time, installed at the same time, and used under the same conditions, what's left? Yeah, must be "limp wrist Larry" the electrician on a Friday afternoon.

@wim0104 3 года назад

12AWG is hard to screw down. we once found a whole neutral bar heated up because of somebodies badly trained apprentice. it did work good enough for 2 years, until the new dryer showed up. I'm in favor of torque drivers & heatmapping.

@ericfraser7543 3 года назад

You did not answer the basic problem, exactly wow do you wire a three prong outlet to a GFCI breaker? The GFCI breaker you showed requires a neutral, the plug would need to be a 4 prong outlet to work with a GFCI breaker. The plug you show has a ground and two hots. Welders only use the hot wires, or 240V, ground is for safety no current unless there is a short. You would need a neutral wire to get 120V.

@aaronlynch4397 3 года назад

I came here for this answer too

@ericfraser7543 3 года назад

@@aaronlynch4397 I am pretty sure you don't need the neutral to wire a GFCI two pole breaker and it will still work, I want to say I saw it in another video. Whether that will pop your gfci with a stick or arc welder that is the bigger question. I asked my building inspector if I was required to use GFCIs in my garage for welder circuits he said no... but I am not sure that is true everywhere he is new this year. I planned on leaving them as future circuits and not wiring them until later when needed, I don't want to spend $100 vs $10 for conventional.

@Sparkeycarp 2 года назад

@@ericfraser7543120volt GFCIs detect the imbalance of current between hot and neutral. How does it work for a 240volt without a neutral?

@ericfraser7543 2 года назад

@@Sparkeycarp Probably does the same thing at 240V between the two hots... They are double GFCI breakers. Consider how your house is wired a transformer at the pole steps down high voltage down to 240 Volts with a center tap making up the neutral making two 120VAC circuits 180 degrees out of phase from each other. The same current imbalance can be checked between the 240V lines if that is how GFCIs work. Circuitry could easily monitor a neutral if it were there also.

@TechnicalLee 2 года назад

You don't hook anything up to the neutral screw on a 240V outlet, it will still work just fine to protect the two legs.

@Jeff-Lawrence 3 года назад

Hi Bill from Sparky Channel Fantastic Topic Never considered the 240 volt gfci requirements. I have a couple of 240v receptacles in the basement, I’ll have to read that code to see what the requirements are... Every one of your videos gets me thinking. Side note, one of your past videos explained receptacle sizing on circuits according to amps. Wondering, can you use 12 gage wire on a 15 amp circuit as long as the breaker and outlet are sized properly? Or mix wire sizes such as 15 amp circuit breaker, 15 amp receptacle and light with 14 gage from breaker to receptacle but 12 gage to light as an example. Perhaps a video on conductor sizing? Always wondering here. In any case, fantastic video once again and so happy it was on more code. You’re a great teacher And oddly enough, we got sunshine today 🌞

@SparkyChannel 3 года назад

Thanks Jeff! I wrote that down on my list of videos to make. I did get flunked by an inspector once for adding onto a 15A circuit with 12/2 cable. He made me use 14/2 but that really doesn't he was correct. Interesting question, thanks! 🌞

@jackhembree2503 3 года назад

Bill, thanks for the video!! Thanks to those commenting about hardwired disconnects. When I installed a 20 amp ,250 volt circuit, it was a no brainier to use a two pole gfci breaker. Many of my shop or garage tools could have been hard wired; most have very large guage cords included. Portability and being able to get the welder outside is nice. Once again thanks for the help. Jack

@SparkyChannel 3 года назад

My pleasure Jack!

@awesomestorage451 2 года назад

i have a table saw with a 6 15 R plug and receptacle but i just moved to a new place and was wondering if i switch the plug end on the saw can use my saw with a already installed NEMA 6-50 receptacle? So basically can I use a 9 amp 220 v saw with 50 amp 220 v outlet

@Sparkeycarp 2 года назад

You need to protect your saw with a circuit breaker of the correct size. Being 15 amps.

@funnlivinit 2 года назад

@@Sparkeycarp Circuit breakers are designed to protect the wiring between the panel and the receptacle. Not the device that is plugged into it. The saw should have it's own breaker built into the motor to protect that. However, that leaves the wires in the cord and leading to the motor susceptible to overcurrent in the event of a short circuit within the machine. It is legal to use a circuit that is rated higher, but not always wise.

@andrewt9204 2 года назад

Like the other guys have said, it would be wise to put in a 15a breaker somewhere on that saw. It's likely that a dead short in the motor would trip the 50 amp breaker, but that's not something I would count on. However... plugging in your 20 watt cell phone charger into a regular wall outlet is analogous to this case. If something starts shorting inside the phone charger, it's probably going to start on fire before tripping the breaker.

@oshtoolman 3 года назад

Not being an electrician, I really appreciate the videos you do. I feel comfortable enough to do small things, like change out receptacles, install CGFI receptacles, wiring for lights etc. I can even wire in a new circuit from the box to a new area (like to my patio). But as soon as you start talking 240 volts, split phase etc etc., that's when I call my local licensed electrician. That stuff can kill you dead!!

@SparkyChannel 3 года назад

Excellent! That's my advice as well. You're a wise man! :)

@avoinc7707 3 года назад

i understand the need for gfis near a water source. don’t see the need for 60 amp garage receptacles to need it. i’ve seen many gfis nearly burn down structures. forcing them onto high amperage equipment is scary to me.

@KevinCoop1 3 года назад

The reason is because in garages and shops they have concrete or dirt floors. Both of which are grounded surfaces. So you are standing or kneeling on a grounded surface and being shocked possibility is very high.

@Eddy63 3 года назад

Good vid Wild Bill ... You sparked the interest of the commenters ... Very enjoyable reading ...

@SparkyChannel 3 года назад

Thanks Eddy! I'm learning things reading all the comments. Have a great day!

@gsftom Год назад

Learned what L6 and L14 are! Good stuff 🙂

@jamisongillespie3524 3 года назад

This has a lot of implications for EVSE, which already have internal GFCI protection or at least are supposed to

@SparkyChannel 3 года назад

For other viewers EVSE stands for Electric Vehicle Supply Equipment, commonly called a charging station or charging dock. I know that Tesla's wall and mobile connectors both have internal GFCI.

@philoso377 2 года назад

GFCI will not work on 240V NEMA 14-50 set up for clothes dryer machine, equipped with 120V motor.

@GuyFromJupiter 2 года назад

I don't see why it wouldn't as long as the neutral is attached to the breaker like it's supposed to be.

@philoso377 2 года назад

@@GuyFromJupiter if you have time do Google search how it works first.

@JamesBentivegna 2 года назад

@@philoso377 My new laundry room has GFCI on the 240V NEMA 14-50 and it works fine with the clothes dryer.. just had to remove the neutral jumper on the dryer.

@philoso377 2 года назад

@@JamesBentivegna if I understand your advice, we ran the appliance with neutral wire floating off the neutral pin of 14-50P. If so that trick works to avoid false triggering the GFCI circuit under no ground fault state, however we also violate the NEC code for operating equipment with neutral floating.

@216682978 2 года назад

@@philoso377 You did not read what @James Bentivegna actually wrote. Dryers, even brand new ones are capable of working on the older three-wire circuits. There is a neutral bonding jumper that bonds the neutral to the bare metal frame inside the machine which must be disconnected before using the dryer on a four-wire circuit as the parallel path allows enough return current leakage to ground to trip a GFCI breaker. Read the installation instructions included with your appliance. No one said anything about disconnecting any conductor in the plug at all.

@TheDannytre 3 года назад

Awesome introduction Bill, I love the whole GFCI/AFCI I breaker system. So if this outlet has to be GFCI protected then that means that the Oven and dryer plugs need to be GFCI protected as well or AFCI. I think at this point every last connection in the house is all going to be protected at the breaker system of some sort so that nothing gets overlooked and that is the best insurance policy that anybody can have.

@SparkyChannel 3 года назад

Thanks Danny!

@fredmauck6934 3 года назад

The locations listed in article 208 did not include habitable spaces. The article said Bathrooms, Outdoors and garages.

@608_rich 3 года назад

Thanks Bill...so that is for dwelling units...is the code different for industrial buildings or is the GFCI on these higher voltage circuits in those facilities now the same as for the dwelling units?

@thefritzy81 3 года назад

210.8(b)(8) would require gfci in your situation if the area is a garage.

@KevinCoop1 3 года назад

Commercial garages require them too.

@Juanalbertocruz1 2 года назад

Love your approach. Thanks!!!!

@robertcapetola3986 3 года назад

Bill, in a previous channel you made mention of a plastic tool invented by Warren Tarbell that was used to dress wires in the box. Can you tell me where to purchase this tool?

@SparkyChannel 3 года назад

VOLTCLAW-12 Nonconductive Electrical Wire Pliers: Amazon: amzn.to/3oaMNEp

@ronh9384 3 года назад

@@SparkyChannel Bill do you have the link to the video that used this tool? Thanks for your time. 😊 Ron

@adamcole370 2 года назад

Here is the answer. Look up the definition of "branch circuit" according to the NEC. You will then see that the entire circuit will equal 240 volts, and will not apply to the gfci code for this receptacle. No gfci needed for 240 volt branch circuits in a garage. 👍

@miles9922 2 года назад

He elaborated at 4:00. A 240V receptacle is supplied by two 120V branch circuits. You will need GFCI.

@envisionelectronics 2 года назад

Wonder why the licensed electrician that installed my EV charging circuit didn’t add GFCI protection. I use that charger in the rain.

@miles9922 2 года назад

@@envisionelectronics I think a lot of municipalities are still running on 2017 NEC, or added their own exceptions for 240V.

@mrosenblatt 2 года назад

@@envisionelectronics Probably because your AHJ might not be following 2020 NEC yet, or the electrician didn't pull a permit so he didn't care enough to go the expensive route for breakers.

@BrianFullerton 2 года назад

@@mrosenblatt Or he knows that things like welders and chargers are prone to (let's just say) "lots" of nuisance tripping and is looking to avoid a long series of call backs. Not that this is a good reason to delete safety features. But nuisance tripping on big loads with long transient time constants is not unusual. UPS systems are similarly "problematic" on GFCI.

@cobbles62 2 года назад

Hi sparky, I plug my RV into a 14-50R at home. That's a 6-50R with an added neutral. Following the code as you showed it should be ground fault protected. However... There seems to be an exception. I believe that since I basically make a connection to a sub-panel in the RV it does not need to be ground fault protected.

@MLFranklin 2 года назад

I think you would not need it if your RV were hardwired to your home. If there is a chance that anyone will unplug it and plug something else in, it still needs the GFCI protection.

@lakorai2 13 дней назад

RV specific outlets do not need GFCI protection because you are basically connecting to a sub panel and transfer switch in the RV. You SHOULD be using AFCI, GFCI and dual function breakers for circuits inside the RV however like it was a house.

@amealnet2495 2 года назад

I have a 10guage 12’ car jumper cables I want to use with two single pole 30amp breakers (one each side of box) to get 240volt will this work?

@mrosenblatt 2 года назад

Will it work? Yes. Will it be a hazard for a multitude of reasons? Also yes. Do not do this, please.

@Krankie_V 2 года назад

@@mrosenblatt the comment above can't be anything other than a joke I sure hope

@snap-off5383 2 года назад

Keyword: Receptacles. Just wire your EV / welder / kiln right into the box, then you can run it with no GFCI cutting your power over and over again. I hear arc-fault breakers and welders just don't work together.

@saulgoodman2018 3 года назад

When in doubt, just use a GFCI. It won't hurt.

@SparkyChannel 3 года назад

Sounds good!

@SassafrasSapling 3 года назад

I see at 4:48 that you have a chart of the different types of the daul phase outlets.

@SparkyChannel 3 года назад

Yes, I like to do things like that. Then if anyone wants to look at it they can just pause the video and check it out. I also like to show more of the code articles than I'm going to read in case a viewer would like to pause the vid and read on.

@KevinCoop1 3 года назад

They are 2 pole, not dual phase. They are all single phase.