Sonic Sign Oddities 

Thanks for watching everybody. This video has been out for quite a while now, but i wanted to address a few repeat comments that i've replied to already, but may not have been seen by many, so i figured i'd pin it here. The main one is regarding the non-random conclusion at 10:16 . At the time i didn't think this would be such a sticking point, so i didn't expand much on it. This video is already going way more in depth to one specific topic than it has any right to, so i felt a full tangent on how randomness is determined on a computer would be overkill and people would lose interest. Let's start with the wording. Looking at it now i would reword that sentence at 10:19 to avoid confusion, but unfortunately that's not possible with a video that's already published. So let me at least explain the thought behind it. "No matter how many times i reloaded, the results were exactly the same." The most important word here is 'reloaded'. Keep in mind the script comes first, so i'll start there. 'Reload' or 'Load' can refer to loading a save file (as shown, i'll get to that.) or can refer to loading the game itself. (load as in start, not like a loading screen). I've used emulators for a very long time, and it is not uncommon for them to have 'Load Game' or 'Load File' as the drop-down option for starting a rom. With this being an emulator within Origins Plus, it just felt natural to say 'reloaded' instead of restart or retried or anything else. So now we get to the accompanying video. It does indeed show me continuously reloading a save file. That was intentional, but wasn't meant to express that that was the extent of the things i tried. That time between the previous sentence and the following sentence is just over ten seconds, meaning i had only that amount of time to visually express what i am saying in the script. When editing videos like these, there's a balance i try to maintain. Show as much info as possible in the little time given without making it messy. I could have instead did a multiple video split screen with any and all attempts at disproving the wiki's notion that the sign spin is random, but that would be very messy, and wouldn't really add much to the point i was making. Remember, the statement i made was that no matter what i tried (barring the actual changes discussed shortly after) the results were exactly the same. Meaning that visually all you would see is the sign spinning to Robotnik. Sure, i could have shown footage of me doing every action i tried in attempt at changing that sign, but how would that look? It would be multiple split screen videos of very sped up footage of doing mundane actions that only result in an Eggman face grinning back at us. Again, that would not help anything. So i figured the best way to visually express this was with a simple video of me reloading the save file and showing the same result. This footage was "staged" as in it was recorded specifically for that section of the video, as opposed to normal gameplay footage of a natural run of the game. It was recorded November 2nd, just days before the video's release. Footage of any actual testing would have been recorded much earlier before the script was even written. The actual results are dated October 19th. So moving on. What is randomness? Many comments stated that there is no true random in a computer. That is true. But it is also true for the natural world too. We all agree that throwing a dice, flipping a coin, or spinning a wheel all give a random result. In reality it is not random at all. It is all physics. The starting state of the object used, the force in which it is thrown/flipped/spun, the type of surface it lands on/amount of friction in the wheel, etc. The point is we see it as random because our minds are not capable of tracking and analyzing all those variables. The computer is capable of that, so random has to be defined by an action. Later in the video you can see the Sonic Blast sign spin that i conclude is random because in this example it doesn't matter what your ring count or life count or anything else is at. You can load the same exact file and get different results crossing that sign, as opposed to the Sonic 1 section. This is because that random value is determined by frames. That clearly isn't the case for Sonic 1, or any of the other games that are not Blast. Besides frames, there are other ways this random value could be determined. But as explained, none of the other game signs are actually random. Still, i had to try many things to get to that conclusion. Seeds are not a novel concept. I'm no expert in computers obviously, but the idea of randomness inside a computer program is a pretty basic one. My introduction to it was Visual Basic (i mean, who even uses that anymore? (I'm joking, know it's still used in some applications (Why must i cover my every track? (IDK, let's carry on)))). So i assure you that when doing my testing, this was not something that was overlooked. That line in the video was ten seconds, but the whole testing process took HOURS. The first file of my Sonic 1 testing was at 2:58PM. The last in that test was 4:18PM. That means i spent over an hour reloading and replaying the first level of the Game Gear Sonic 1 attempting anything and everything to get a sign icon other than Robotnik. That's just the Sonic 1 test, which is the most relevant right now. But just for the record, the last file recorded on October 19th for these tests across all the 8bit games in Origins plus is at 11:40PM. The times across all 51 files recorded in that day are pretty consistent, save for a two hour break i took during the Sonic Chaos testing. I'm telling you all this to reiterate that nothing was overlooked. I didn't go into this project expecting to spend a whole day on the sign results, but here we are (or there we were, cause it is in the past now). Anyway, what is it that i tried then? So i did start with a continuous save file reload just before the sign like what was shown. I did other attempts with different ring counts, or different time counts. I tried soft resets by using the 'Title Screen' option. I tried hard resets by exiting out of the game then going back in. I tried it while getting the checkpoint monitor, i tried it without getting it. I tried taking damage, i tried it without damage. I even tried taking out all enemies, hoping maybe a score difference could have some effect. And i tried the different life counts as explained in the video. So why wasn't any of this featured in the video? Well keep in mind the main point of the video is the sign results. Initially i wasn't even concerned with how we obtained those results. I just wanted to show off each sign variation in each game, and explain what bonus it gives you. And when 2 different sources told me that the signs were random, i figured it would be a pretty easy task. It wasn't, and i was confused as to how they came to that result when it simply wasn't the case. So i briefly mention that in the video, but then resume with the regularly scheduled programming. It was never the point of the video, but it was pretty fundamental in the process of how we get the signs, and thus each of the bonuses, so it was at least worth a mention. I also go on to explain what actually does cause the signs to change, so i figured that was sufficient. I mean, how could the sign results be randomized, when doing specific actions are the only way to change it? So why does this matter to me? I'd be lying if i said it wasn't irritating. But that is because i know the amount of time, attention, and energy that goes into these videos, and in particular this one with all the tedious testing i had done. I hope the work i put into all my videos is apparent. I pride myself in how detailed i can be. In fact, i kinda can't help it. I go to great lengths to ensure everything i present is correct. That is through testing like explained here, or in research, like with the walkthrough by WWalker that lead me down the right path. All of this doesn't mean there couldn't be anything that slips through and ends up being incorrect, it happens sometimes. The problem i have here is that i'm fully confident in what i'm presenting, and the comments in question are only insinuating that maybe i could be wrong based on how i worded that one sentence. I'm all for being called out if i truly am wrong. These may just be silly little Sonic videos, but the truth is the truth, and it should be what is presented and discussed. If i'm wrong about something, explain why that is, and then present the true conclusion. That is not what these comments are doing though. Anybody is free to spend hours of their life retrying level 1 of Sonic 1 GG attempting to prove the sign spin is in fact random as mentioned in the wiki's. If you get different results than me, then i'm all ears. But please, only call me out once you have evidence that contradicts what i am saying, instead of a semester 1 Intro To Computer Programming explanation of how RNG works. That may sound angry, i truly don't mean for it to. But i've seen the same comments over and over and it's a little bit frustrating to me personally. I don't hold anything against the people who have commented, i recognize it's best to cover all bases. And in all cases things were cleared up with a short reply explaining more of my process for determining my results. It's just once something is addressed it should be final. But i know that's not how RU-vid works. Obviously i don't expect everyone to read all 329 comments before writing one of their own. And i want to reiterate i'm not holding anything against these individuals. And i can't re-edit the video without taking it down. So hopefully a long drawn out explanation of that small section could clear things up for anyone who was interested. At the very least it makes my compulsion to reply to each of them a little less imperative. [Continued in replies]

Also, in the 1993 prototype of Sonic 3, whenever you play as Tails and reach the goal plate, it will always be Blue Knuckles.

“He even steals Tails’ name” *Knuckles commits identity theft & succeeds*

Just a quick detail: the yellow parts of Eggman's shirt are actually a small cape. If you look at his back you can see it between his shoulders and it's more clear on his 3D models that it's actually a separate article.

It's pretty clear what happened with the Sonic 3 sign in Origins. They just programmed that first flip of the sign to be the current character. It should have STARTED with the current character and looped from there, but they messed something up there.

In Sonic Triple Trouble, there is actually an unused Fang sign hidden within the game’s files. It is unknown as to what it will give you.

I’ve always liked these as the end-level goals. Its a fun way to represent Sonic taking the world back from Eggman. Its fun when those kind of things tie into the themes of a game.

In Sonic & The Black Knight, some levels end with a sign. Sometimes Sonic runs through it just like in the classics, and sometimes he stops in front of it. I didn't figure out what determines which action Sonic will take.

The forward facing Sonic sign is way creepier than any Sonic.exe creepypasta. Something about it just feels so wrong.

Fun fact: If you separate the pixels in a checkerboard pattern in the signpost inbetween sprites in the 16-bit games, depending on which order you do, you'll clearly see Sonic or Robotnik!

Fun Fact: The Blue-Knuckles Sign can be seen in the original game. By doing a lot of complicated steps using Debug mode, you can play as this Blue Knuckles who has all of Knuckles's abilities but Sonic's pathing (meaning you'll die if you try to take Knuckles's path) If you manage to complete an act as this version of Knuckles, the game will tell you “Tails” has passed Act _. For more information, check out A+Start's videos on Sonic 3&K. It’s honestly insane.

After some testing, I've confirmed the requirements for the Tails sign in Sonic 2 (SMS/GG). You must finish the Act with 77 rings, AND the same number of lives you started the Act with. Dying or getting an extra life will not disqualify you, as long as you get the life count back to where it was before you finish.

I used to pause every frame to see the weird signs back when I was a kid this is so cool to see a video made about this

Great video! I noticed something that perhaps you missed - in Sonic Triple Trouble there's a couple of frame window right as the sign settles on the player card, where Dr Eggman's foot (or bottom right quadrant of this image card) is still visible over the player card on the sign.

Man, Cybershell's voice is pretty different in this video. Anyway when's the Sonic Signs Bonus video coming out?

I hope you like minute details about Sonic signs!

I feel like if this information on how the signs worked was known back in the day we would have gotten a Fleetway character out of it, in the same vein as Extra Life.

Did you know that the angled signs when transitioning from Robotnik to Sonic in Sonic 1, have been used for Sonic 2 and 3, most likely cause they didn’t want to redraw those frames so they simply recolored those frames with the S2 and S3 palettes (They used the proto CD sign for CD’s signpost)

Plot twist: Hydrocity Zone's water actually has a distinct temperature; So, the palette oddities shown at 8:08 is really just Knuckles training to become the first thermochromatic echidna. Of course, not unlike the legendary innovation of Color-Changing Hot Wheels.

10-20 minute video essay about random aspects of Sonic so mundane you never think about them are my genre of youtube video mostly because it always surprises me that there's actually enough content to fill up all 10-20 minutes

I really appreciate you being so thorough. It makes it more intriguing to watch and satisfies the curiosity. There's nothing more annoying than that one gnawing question the video never answers!

Blue Knuckles is in fact due to how pallettes were handled. Playable Knuckles uses the same pallette as Sonic and just replaces his blues with reds. This lead to a funny thing when they both had to be on screen. According to Sonic 3 Unlocked, the HUD and enemies shared the same pallette. So they got around having Knuckles on screen for cutscenes by using the enemy pallete. But because the HUD was always on screen, they sacrificed the green of Playable Knuckles for the HUD's yellow. And because Cutscene Knuckles had a separate pallette, they didn't update it to be less pink.

Weird, I always assumed as a kid that they weren't actually changing anything about the sign, and that their side was just on the side that's off-screen. But clearly, for there to be more than 2 images on it, there has to be some changing display system on it. Either that, or it's a non-Euclidean object that can flip more sides than it has in the physical plane, which would be both absurdly funny and slightly unsettling.

7:32 As for Blue Tails the Echidna, I believe Kit from IDW is based off of that with how his ears are flopped downwards, him being a fox, and him being a glitch.

It’s like a Cybershell video, just with less swearing and distain towards SEGA. Good vid lol.

never would have guessed goal posts were this complex! thats very interesting!

The thing with randomness in video games and savestates is that the savestate often captures the underlying prng state, resulting in the same outcome. Savestates are not a reliable way of examining randomness.

In Sonic: Triple Trouble you can also get the ruby sign by having just one ring & one life at the end of the stage.

8:37 *sonic knows what you did.*

did not expect to be as fascinated by this as I was. I just put this on for noise whilst eating but I was ENGROSSED

So glad to see this! I got the blue knuckles sign once wayyy back in the day. This was before the internet so I didn't have any way to share it or see if it was something anyone else had seen. I forgot about it until I saw this thumbnail, so thank you for bringing a small part of my childhood back to me!

you know how have we never gotten a spinning sign fake out before imagine going through a really hard level passing that sign and expecting it to land on sonic but it lands on an even meaner looking eggman picture and the levels not over yet

I love learning about odd little details like these, great video!

I've been playing Sonic since I was 4 years old, researched everything I could from Sonic Retro in my 15 years of being part of the Sonic community and I never knew about some of these oddities until I watched your video lol. I even have a few split disassemblies of the 8-bit games and never really studied the signpost logic. :V You've got a new subscriber! :D

For Triple Trouble there is at least one unused goal sign which was of Fang/Nack. Source: The Cutting Room Floor site

Huge props for putting so much research especially into the 8-Bit Games!

Blue Knuckles is a really intresting glitch character, going right along with Ashura, Wechnia, Redhot, Glitch LBZ Tails, and Glitch LBZ Sonic

i dont know why this got recommended to me but its great cause this is the exact nerdy content i like

That was very informative and interesting information that I might never need but still fascinating none-the-less, especially the red Sonic part

This is a SIGN of good videos and new subscribers

2:16 Fun fact: In America, they gave Eggman Black eyes, considering how S2 and S3&K were American releases, that means he isn't wearing Glasses

Sonic was really red and hot on those appearances.

Never thought much of these before. Interesting video topic.

About the colours on the sign, it represents the complementary colours which is basically opposite on the colour wheel. For example, yellow is a primary colour because you don’t mix anything to get it, as for purple, it is a secondary colour because you have to mix red and blue which are the other two primary colours meaning the only primary colour you don’t mix to get purple is yellow which is why they are opposite (unrelated but if you mix all 3 primary colours or mix 2 secondary colours or more, you will get brown). Now let’s take a look at the sign colours: Sonic who is blue, sign colour is orange in Sonic 2, Sonic 3 and Sonic and Knuckles (Blue and Orange are complimentary colours. The only sign colour that doesn’t use orange for Sonic is in Sonic 1 but it still uses yellow and yellow is a warm colour whereas blue is a cold colour. What that means is basically if you were to give a colour a temperature based on what it looks like, we would think of blue like the cold ocean or yellow like the blazing hot sun. So they still compliment each other fairly well.) Tails who is orange has a blue sign colour (Already mentioned but blue and orange are complimentary colours) Knuckles who is red has a green sign colour and start of zone card (Not sure why only Knuckles gets the special treatment of getting a different start of zone card colour but it is so refreshing seeing it be green for once instead of blue. Red and green are complimentary colours as well.) Amy who is pink has a teal sign colour (Originally, pink was just a tint of red and still is but people think it is it’s own separate colour which I guess is fair, if people like it that much then it can be it’s own colour. But anyway, pink being a tint of red makes it share a complimentary colour, that being green, or is it? Just like pink, teal is also a tint but it is of green instead. Some people think teal more closely resembles blue however blue is used to make green anyway so even if it is just a blueish green, that would still be like 75% green, 25% blue). Sorry for making this comment so long, I’ll end it now.

This is the kind of content RU-vid needs.

Keep in mind that computers can't really do random. When you load a savestate like that, it'll have the same random seed, and if you press the same buttons on the same frames, it'll give you the same random outcome. To really test randomness, you'll want to wait random times or use random inputs - so for example wiggling around for three seconds - to give the random seed some inputs to change from.

8:37 “dam bro that was honestly hilarious I fact You should start running I MIGHT LAUGH A LOT HARDER”

It seems like the origin sign character order is Player character Tails Knuckles Amy(plus) Robotnik Which is why you only see sonic when you play as him. It also explains why they flash in the order that they do

i like how in sonic two the background color of the sign represents the other character, it’s a nice touch

The less detail in Eggman's mustache in Sonic 2 is due to the palette lacking the darkest shade of red in order to accomodate for Tails' orange colors

this feels like a cybershell vid

That Super Sonic sign bugged me to know end back in the day had me hoping beyond hope that Super Sonic was in the game as I didn't have a Genesis back then.

The colour alterations from S1 to 2 Is due to changing Sonic and Robotnik's colour Palette. Sonic, Tails, Eggman and some enemies use the same Palette. This carries over to the sign posts. They even removed the dark red colour used to shade robotnik's stache.

Cybershell is kicking himself rn

I just found this channel, you've gained a subscriber

Blue knuckles is like, an accidental character

"This is likely due to some palette limitation" From my understanding, both player characters share the same palette (aka Sonics also has tails colors in there and vice versa) so when deciding that KTE wasn't going to be playable in Sonic 3 alone, they probably forgot to remove it for when he isn't there. This is also where the weirdly colored backgrounds come from.

Petition to call Blue Knuckles, BUCKLES

This channel is one video off from becoming a successor to cybershell and I mean that in the sincerest possible way. Only thing missing is having the subtle sarcasm turned up to 11.

Sonic 2 8 bit, You can the ring sign by having a multiple of 10 rings. If you have 90 rings, you will get an extra life. This is from Clement play through of the game.

I LOVE THE MUSIC IN THE INTRO

It seems like maybe the weirdness with tails and knuckles' signs in 3 could be because of their sign replacing sonic's in the cycle, but they forgot to switch the second copy of their sign to sonic's in exchange.

Therapist: Blue Knuckles doesn't exist and can't hurt you Blue Knuckles:

Only this man can make a 16 minute video on sonic sign posts

8:00 the chain of effects of this cheat is interesting

8:38 "you think you're safe" ahhh look

Another oddity is Mystic Cave Zone Act 1. The signpost is partially submerged in the floor. It doesn't impact gameplay in anyway. But some people with an eye for detail (like me) can't unsee it ......

I love how manic Robotnik looks on some of those old signs.

I like the metal plate detail on the back of the sign. I always used to think they somehow had more than one side inspide of being 2D but this makes me wonder if they were more similar to flat screens or electronic images

I like to think that blue Knuckles is a imposter with a identity crisis not knowing who he really is

as a kid the blue knuckles was always the biggest mystery to me and then it was locked away in my brain until now

Ah yes... Ronic and Bluckles.

Here's another oddity about the goal sign in Sonic Triple Trouble: In Tidal Plant act 2, the red parts of the sign are green when underwater. Like the Flicky picture for instance. It's backdrop is green. That doesn't look so bad, right? An as for the Knuckles image, the background's still light blue, but his face is dark green. That seems a little scary for some people, don't you think?

Hell Yeah I can feel the coils in my brain tighten

Tails The Blue Echidna is the ultimate deep lore sonic character. Right up there with Danica Patrick.

hahaha 8:35 I love the forward-facing Tails sign!!

Sometimes when i spin the sign i can read the word "clear" in it

this feels like a scraped Cybershell video fr

Cool video I like random little stuff like this

Knuckles finally has the proper super colour I wish at least Amy had yellow Super, because she is a Hedgehog like shadow silver and sonic

RU-vid desperately wanted me to watch this.

This is the first time I've heard someone say it was a relief to play Sonic Blast.

You might like to know in the genesis version of S3&K you can get Blue knuckles legitimately if you use debug mode and glitch the game out by spawning a bunch of hyper boxes and proceeded to break all of them at once. This causes the game to softlock and when you press the debug button to return to the title screen you will either get Sonic & Knuckles without Sonic 3, or you will get S3&K to which you can go to the character selection menu and find him in the list as a 4th character. Blue Knuckles is basically Tails but before Tails was added to the game. The game basically had data for a 3rd character who takes the same route as Sonic but isn't Sonic. So just like the SMB minus worlds work. The game reads the data and ends taking the data that was present in the prototype of S3&SK which of course was Knuckles and Sonic. This results in a Knuckles that is blue, regarded as Sonic, and is suppose to take Sonic's route. However, he can also take the Knuckles route as he has the data of both characters. One could say that Blue knuckles truly is S&K 😆 He's tougher than the rest of them and just like Sonic, he likes to chuckle.

It took me years to find out that to get the Tails panel in 8 bit Sonic 2 you had to get 77 rungs- i was going crazy as I had only ever got it a couple of times in the past by accident. There is another requirement though- you need to finish the act with the same amount of lives as when you entered, so if you started the act with 3 lives, you need 3 at the end of the act to get Tails. It's a very strangely specific requirement.

6:55 yes blue knuckles is a pallet error, the pallet for the main game and knuckles pallet are in two different things. If you want to play as knuckles then the pallet for sonic would be replaced by knuckles.

The Sonic Facing Frontwards variation reminds me of the Sonic for hire episode where he shows up on movie theater screen and promptly blows up the theater. Now I know were Lowbrow got the Sonic face from lol

"But first, some signs"

3:54 The Green backdrop Knux reminds me of another interesting anomaly about the original Knux in Sonic 2- the white shield.

6:56 Fun fact: Sonic, Tails, playable Knuckles, and Robotnik all use the same palette, which is a modified version of the one used since Sonic 1. This is why Robotnik's cape and sign background changed from yellow to orange in Sonic 2, since Tails started to use those colors. The NPC Knuckles in Sonic 3 actually uses the enemy palette, which is why he looks slightly different from when he's being played as.

8:00 OMG ITS REDHOTSONIC!

The moment you said Red Sonic, I immediately thought of that one YTP of him saying "Kids, you are gay."

That Blue Knuckles sign always confused the hell out of me. Like sometimes he’d be blue and sometimes red. Weird stuff.

Now the chaos emeralds make more sense. Color is a liquid on Genesis

nice transition

4:32 I think the reason for this is because the game uses the first sign when on the ground. Like you see Amy, then Tails, then Knuckles, and back to Amy as the sign spins, because the sign that is shown on the ground, and the first sign from the spin, are connected to each other. So maybe if you replace Knuckles’ first sign with Sonic, it would land to the ground as Sonic. Since that’s what the sign is set to. Even though you are playing as Knuckles. And the reason for Genesis Sonic 2&K and 3&K showing Knuckles on the sign, along with Eggman and Tails who the latter has a new background color. Is because they replace Sonic’s code with Knuckles’.

thank you cybershell

god i love sonic signposts

I like how Robotnik gives a thumbs down to oppose sonic's thumbs up while (probably ?) saying "boo !"

8:49 awww look at tails’ sign

8:01 OMG redhotsonic has cleared the level!!