Maurice, every single thing you come up with maxes out the Cool-O-Meter. Those folding arms are just brilliant. I think this mid-size model is a good idea. Even without the folding arms, the faster speeds would make this a great choice for fibers like cotton, silk, linen, etc., as well as for lace weight yarn. In those cases, the smaller bobbins aren't an issue. I can see spinners who already own an EEW 6.1 acquiring this model as a second wheel. (Because, obviously.). And it sounds perfect for beginning or casual spinners who don't need a full-featured wheel like the 6.1, but would like a wheel that's an upgrade from the Nano. As for the base: I'd love to have the option of buying the deeper, "snap-on" box as an accessory. I don't think you have to include it as part of the basic wheel package. Even better would be if we could buy multiple stacking boxes, a battery could go in one, then a second one could store the electric cord, foot pedal, etc. Maybe there could even be a deeper box size that could an assembled bobbin with yarn-in-progress (!). Then everything could sit all nice and compactly on a shelf, ready to just drop into a bag for travel, or to keep everything tidy and protected in between spinning sessions. Oh dear, I am now obsessed by this idea of the fully self-contained spinning wheel... 😎💕
This would have pretty much all the features of the EEW 6 except possibly less expensive sliding hooks and maybe a less expensive spindle, but I'm still working out those details. Other than size it will be much closer to the EEW 6 than the EEW Nano.
I like the foldable portability and a 4 oz + bobbin would be fantastic. I love my nanos and ply on my EEW 6.0 but think I would really use the foldable wheel with the 4 oz bobbins. You never disappoint Maurice, thank you for all your great ideas and putting those ideas into action.
First let me say that you are brilliant. I have a 6.0 machine and love it. It seems to me that the folding eSpinner would be limited to a very specific customer base. It is my experience (as limited as it is) that most spinners are not looking for speed. I use my eSpinner when traveling or visiting family. I still use my other 2 vintage wheels frequently. For myself and my spinning friends spinning is more about relaxing and enjoying the journey.
Sign me up! We rv a lot and this would be awesome for travel. Also like the idea of mid size bobbin with strong motor so could do cotton hopeful without being fiddly.
Coming from a Nano for portability reasons, I think 4 oz bobbins are a perfect step up! Especially paired with a stronger motor. I also really like the idea of the arms folding all the way inside like that-less of a chance for something to break.
So now I'll have to buy ANOTHER spinner! ❤ I would love this for cotton or any fine yarn. I would buy it with or without the battery cover. I usually set the battery to the side of the spinner anyway.
I love the idea of a foldable EEW. Would make it the natural traveller's E-spinner. I also agree that 4oz is a great size for bobbins. I've experimented with plying huge 3ply skeins with my Jumbo flyer for my Lendrum, but you end up having to cut the skein when you go to ball wind anyway. Big capacity is nice, but if there's something that limits the end ball size, you can sort of lose the benefit of the high capacity bobbin. This wheel has such a nice form factor when the maiden's are tucked in. My pie-in-the-sky dream would be a kind of complete case (or maybe just the 3d files for one) which allows the wheel, the flyer, 2-3 bobbins, and the battery bottom to all fit into something the size of a small shoebox. On other channels I've seen people print little gameboy hinge cases and line it with foam, so I wonder if there would be a chance to make a custom-case available through files.
Heck yeah!!! I love this! You come up with the COOLEST ideas! I love being able to see the progression from idea to finished product. Thank you for all that you do for the fiber community!
Nice! I’d still be very interested in having a case designed to hold all of he main components in a form factor that’s easily stackable. I love the folding mechanism.
Really like the idea of a faster spinner to spin for lace and sock yarn. Right now I like the flat bottom, with a port to attach a portable battery. If you have the files available for the larger bottom that would carry a battery that would give people the option. Great job on coming up with new designs.
I really like this! It would be great if there was a way to somehow stick a bobbin to the closed base so that one could travel maybe with some yarn already on the bobbin without having to dismantle it (I realise it would raise the profile, but maybe it could be done in such a way that it fits with the flier). Though maybe it isn't possible. Personally while the RPM counter would be a nice add on, I would prefer e.g. more resistant material (e.g. in the nano the yarn wears off the flier, while in the 6 that can't happen as it is metal). Thanks for sharing!
Love it! Foldable design makes it really portable... like the idea of flexibility for attaching a battery to match the portable design. And the speed over the nano2 sounds ideal!
Basically you're talking about the e-spinner equivalent of the Lendrum Lace Flyer. Great idea for particular projects. I love the folding capability. I especially love the idea of a screen showing RPM--now I want that for my 6.0!
My question is, would it show the actual rpm, or would it show the rpm the motor is attempting to provide but is unable to because of energy lost to distribution and brake friction?
I have the eel 6. I also have a Hansen mini spinner. I love having the small battery in my eel. I love the ease of switching bobbins in my Hansen. I would love my current Eel 6 to have the fold down bobbin change feature. I wouldn't care for the new one without room for battery. It may be perfect for someone who doesn't have a current larger size eel. Thanks for always striving to improve.
I like that the 4oz bobbin lives at the half way point to the EEW 6. I own the original nano and use it mostly for travel and to wind bobbins for plying on my EEW 6. A 4 oz travel spinner with the power of the EEW 6 would meet a great mid point between the two. Since I end up using my power bank to charge other devices as well when I'm on the road I don't think it's too important to include battery storage. Maybe think about easy ways to mount the bottom plate to different battery or storage containers and think about an internal routing for the cable connection. Maybe allowing the base plate to become the lid of a larger storage box that holds the battery pedal and cables when inserted upside down (this could also be a aftermarket add on if the design of the base plate allows it)
I love the idea of folding design. I agree with another user - having the 4oz bobbin is great for the intended purpose, but would also be great to be able to use the existing 8oz bobbins that we might have from our 6s. I think having a middle price point between the two current options is fantastic. I'm really excited about this. SO grateful for you and your contribution to the craft. Without the eew Nano, I would have never gotten into spinning.
Definitely. Yes! Build it. If you ship along a battery base with the initial purchase, it'll give a location to ship & store those collapsed bobbins. It would be smart to design the use of all 3 bobbins on one spinner. 2oz, 4oz, and 6oz. Makes a much more versatile spinner Also, two clamp locations! Keep designing!
I love the idea of a folding design. While I see your need for a smaller bobbin when creating fine yarn if it were possible to have the ability too also use larger bobbins for when you want bulky yarn it could make this a more versatile machine. Overall though I love your thought process always taking the creative and mechanical into consideration. You are a wonderful asset to the spinning community and hope with your help we can keep this treasured art form going.
Hey Maurice! This is a wonderful idea. I think that since it’s meant to be super portable (take & use anywhere) it really needs to accommodate a battery with cover so it can truly be used anywhere. Thanks for your wonderful fiber art tools!👍🥰
Initially, I wasn't sure what the point was to have a foldable e-spinner. The originals are small and compact and easy to transport as they are. so didn't see the need for a foldable design. However, after seeing it, I can see the benefit for some people. If you are flying and need to save space - perfect idea. Suggestions/ideas 1st - make the flyer "attachable" either with clips or magnets or a separate box that is a part of the design. Easier to keep track of. 2nd I like the extra box bottom for the weight. Won't slide around when spinning. Even when I use wall power, I still keep my batter attached for weight. 3rd 4 oz bobbins are pretty small, but then so is the e-spinner. That said, a spinner would need multiple bobbins so a storage system for the bobbins would be great too. Maybe stackable? Flyer, spinner and bobbins in separate boxes, but stackable. 5th the RPM counter would help in dialing in a certain speed when you put it away and pick it back up. Thank you for always thinking "outside the box" and coming up with new and improved ideas!!
Love the foldable design and the mid size bobbin. I personally don't think I'd use the RPM screen and I'm impartial to the bottom design. Love your inventions! And yes please on the foot pedal!
I'm loving this! The RPM display would really help when spinning multiple bobbins of the same fiber for a single project because it will give you a clear data point in tracking how each bobbin was spun in order to get a more consistent yarn. If there is a way that it could also measure yardage that would be flipping amazing, but I have no idea how that would work. I love that it would be collapsible because it would be even easier to travel with on those days I have to take the bus to my LYS for the monthly spin-in.
I love this design, I would absolutely purchase this, ESPECIALLY if it had a display for speed. I personally would prefer the flatter bottom, and could see it being a helpful extra to keep the larger bottom and battery as an additional piece, seems like it would make it easier for travel to be able to separate, while still keeping a bottom on it to protect the components. I don't know if this is something that would be easy to incorporate, but I very often lament that I don't have a way to rewind my bobbins on my Nano, (I've even looked at designing my own flyer-less mount to allow the motor to drive just the bobbin,) but if there was a way to consider that function in the design of this machine, that would be an instant purchase from me.
I really like the idea of an easily folding espinner with fast speeds for spinning fine yarns. Please keep designing. I like the flat bottom with the option to print a battery case. The addition of a speed readout would also be helpful.
I really like the way the maidens fold into the base and the orifice swivels; this would definitely make it less fussy to change bobbins than on the Nano. The larger, battery-containing base (or cord/plug-holding base) would be more useful and elegant, IMO, than the flat base. (Admittedly, the spinner would probably be kept in a box or tote with other accouterments, so this might not make that much of a difference.) Although the RPM screen might be cool to see, I think it would be more decorative than practical, and I personally would rather have spinner at a lower cost than one with that particular bell/whistle. A graceful way to clamp the spinner to a table (such as a slot or hole for inserting an L-clamp) might be handy, although the larger size of this spinner might make it less likely to be pulled along or over than the Nano.
YES! Foldable is brilliant. Especially for those who travel for fiber events by plane. I love the look of the ends of the EEW 6 bobbins and how they break down. I'm in! Thanks for your brilliance, Maurice.
Very interesting concept; not sure if I would buy. I'd need to think of the use case for me in relation to my EEW 6.0 and treadle wheel, since I don't tend to spin fine yarn very much, though I like the earlier comment about this perhaps being a good option to spinning cotton and other short-staple cellulosic fibers. The battery setup would be really important to me. I wouldn't mind a smaller, lower-capacity battery that needs recharging more frequently, if that's easier to accommodate. That would be lighter, too.
I love the foldable idea. I think a strap to hold the battery is a better idea with the flat bottom. That allows people to decide on what works for them. It would great if there was a way to snap the flyer on top. Then that would allow us to keep all the part of the wheel together when traveling with it. Some kind of portal bobbin carrier would be cool. If I am going to pack this and go I would like all of it in one handy carrying device.
That is neat! It would be nice if there was an intentional spot to put the flier for transit. Either a spot it could clip into on the top or maybe magnets and some little straps. An internal spot for the orifice hook to stay safe at would be neat too (maybe on the bottom plate somehow?).
I think 4 ounces is more than enough bobbin to work with on most of my projects. I like the idea of a folding EEW, and if I didn't already have an EEW6, I would definitely consider it. On the flip side, I would still need extra bobbins, and as such, these are quite bulky and carrying them assembled would defeat the purpose of a folding wheel for me. If I were to buy a folding wheel, it would be for travelling purposes, not for storing medium to long term. For this reason, it would make sense only if I could flat pack the bobbins with yarn on it. This may not make sense, but when travelling, sometimes you just have to put away your project even if it is not completed. Or maybe at this point, a more simple quill type wheel would be a simpler, more portable design.
The bobbins can flat pack, but not with yarn on them. My phlosophy is it's better to solve some parts of the problem than none of them. But I agree that full bobbins will still take up significant amounts of space compared to this eSpinner.
Yes! Portability is the best, and this is so space-saving for travel and storage. The more powerful motor would be great, as I find my Nano to be underpowered even with the motor upgrade. I would really appreciate an integrated battery, as it adds enough weight to stabilize the wheel, and saves counter space. Is there any way to make the battery connection more integrated so you don't have cords running all over? I added a little toggle switch, but would much prefer a small foot pedal, which is especially handy when plying. I'm neutral on the speed-readout, not sure how valuable it would actually be. Good luck!
I think the ease of changing out bobbins is something you should push forward into all your designs (and who doesn't like nice snappy magnetic closures!). I ROUTINELY take mine camping, but I don't think being able to fold it flat would help, as I'm usually already working on a project with half full bobbins, etc. May i suggest a DC (cigarette lighter) connection? It would be more energy efficient on battery packs :D
I travel a lot and a foldable wheel would be fantastic. The faster speed when spinning cotton would be great. I also like the idea of some form of brackets or straps that can be attached to secure a battery under the wheel would be awesome. I currently transport my mini in a sewing accessories basket. So something that would fit a container like that or possibly a 3D printed case to hold the wheel and accessories . Seriously looking forward to more information as you move ahead on this project.
If it's going to be folding for storage & transport, then a battery holder adds to that portability! 🤩 I don't personally need a screen, but having an attached cover for the battery would be fabulous, because it's a pain to spread everything out
The folding itself is definitely nice for bobbin changing. However I'd like to see the folding travel aspect carried further with at least a spot for the flyer so that it won't get damaged.
I also love this design prototype concept. I only have a nano 2 currently and have been waiting for the 6.1 but might reconsider depending on price point. I would buy this one if it's price point fits somewhere between the nano 2 and the 6.1. I would also like to see this design incorporate the larger bobbins if possible as well as the 4 oz size for flexibility. As someone who travels not necessarily to Antarctica but just even to a neighboring town the concept of a much more foldable design fits my bill. I currently have a WWII 50 cal ammo case that my nano2 lives in when I travel but would really like the option of a cloth bag instead. I've found the airport security people get really nervous when I stroll up to them with my ammo case. Stan
Looks perfect for me. I agree with the size of the bobbin. If the flyer gets too big there could be too much vibration and distortion at high speeds. I am always scared of my nano and 6 getting damaged during travel. Folding up nicely would be great. Also, I would just travel with the one then. I personally don’t need a readout. In my case yarn consistency is in my hands and rhythm. Going by a number does not take into account the organic aspects of spinning. But others might need it.
Love the idea and small design. Not as important for me as I do not travel a lot and I have a great case I use for mine but I could see the appeal for some people.
I love this! I do like to spin with a battery pack and I like the weight and height the battery gives the espinner, so the ability to have or get a base that holds the pattern and still allows folding the maidens would be important to me. I would also love to be able to use my nano bobbins on this spinner. The RPM display would be amazing so we can keep the speed the same even as the bobbin gets heavier.
So... I am not a spinner (yet!), so this might be a silly suggestion... Any chance of incorporating a couple of Lazy Kate spindle arms (correct term?) onto the casing somehow? They could fold out in a similar manner. Make use of the solid, stable base while plying. I would definitely be keen to buy something like this unit, as a good compact compromise (for storage and travel) between the Nano and 6.x - incorporating the better quality brushless motor and components afforded by the slightly larger size and design budget. Living in Australia (or any country other than the US I guess), the relative cost of freight makes it worthwhile to invest a little more in the machine - especially if that equates to a reduction in freight due to cubic weight. Definitely also love being "involved" in the design and production process! Love your work!
Thanks for the suggestion, but I think incorporating a Lazy Kate would just create too many parts to keep track of on the case and would result in something bigger. I already have a lazy kate (and found from experience you want a large heavy base) that works well so I'll probably just keep these seperate.
Love this design! I'm always looking for wheels that are easy to change bobbins on. Pulling off and reseating the drive band is really hard on my hands.
I would love to have the battery pack case since I use my 6 on battery all the time. If the base is the same size as the 6 (looks smaller), could you make the bases interchangeable?
The base is smaller. I actually had to increase the side some to get the same Tallent Cell battery to fit, but I've done that because I know many will want it. However, the bottom of this is just a little bigger than the size of the 6000 mAh tallentcell. I don't want to increase the size of this to be the same as the EEW 6.0. I am going to investigate a strap system on the bottom to hold the battery and see how that works. After I get that done, I'll probably let people vote on what type of bottom they'd prefer, but I will make sure all the options are available as 3D printed parts. I just need to pick one to include with the eSpinner by default.
That's a great idea! Then if you're traveling, you don't have the worry about the maidens or flyer getting broken in the suit case, because we all know that airport staff probably aren't gentle with the luggage. Cheers!
I think this folding form factor makes sense, especially for fine yarn spinners. I’m a fan! Keep the flat bottom, esp as power bricks improve in capacity. I love the built in 4-numeral RPM counter, but wish it could be a yarn counter! I don’t suppose that’s possible? But the RPMs are def a big win! Hope it makes the cut!! I suggest as much as you can make each component snap in nicely so there’s no sliding around and all the magnets really stay nice and snug will really make this a quality product. I believe that’s key to this products success imho. Definitely see how this doesn’t make sense for bulky yarns bc of bobbin size (except for maybe a quick art yarn demo at a festival?) but the compact size and foldable form factor should make it a BFF for fair & festival use! I can really see this taking off, Maurice. Looking forward to future iterations!
Folding design looks really cool! But I love my battery, and how it keeps the spinner stable. I literally never use it with the plug anymore. I’m not sure I’d want to use the folding one if the battery became a clunky add-on.
Sorry my input is so late but I'm here to say that I love this idea but I have one reservation. I'm worried that it will have the same rattling/loud noise problem that the early bamboo eel wheels had. I still have one and use it. It's loudness is due to the way the back folds down. I found I can minimize the noise by bracing the back with clamps and a small piece of thin wood. It looks like there are magnets in this design and I'm hoping they will be strong enough to keep this wheel from making a lot of noise. Just wanted to throw my 2 cents in there. Hopefully you've already thought about this and resolved the issue! Thanks for letting us be a part of your design process. I'm really interested in this one. I primarily use a nano, but I'd be down for a bigger version of it. I don't often spin away from home, but folding down flat is never a bad thing.
🤯Once again you've come up with a design that will revitalize spinning for a larger audience. I am absolutely looking forward to purchasing this design once you finish it. I won't offer my beta testing services since traditional wheels with treadles turned me right off due to an exacerbation of knee pain. This and your other products would make spinning possible for me due to the combination of motors with a price that is reasonable for my budget. Thank you so much for sharing your talents with the fiber community and the world.👏👏👏👏
First, a personal thanks for all your innovations! I have several of your inventions. I do like the new size spinner and have a couple of thoughts for you. Your design for folding and keeping all parts within the plastic box is not only easy for transporting for us mobile spinners but more importantly, it would protect all components. With that said, how about a robust carrying case to carry any of your espinners? It's called "peace of mind" when traveling either by RV, plane, or car that's packed to the limit. One other idea, could this new 4 oz size bobbin be compatible with the EEL 6 so those of us with the 6 can interchange the bobbins. I would imagine that the bobbin would have to be the same length to be interchangeable but shorter in width/height of the sides to make it more portable and easier to fit inside the box for storage. One wheel could be for traveling and the other set up for home use. What an ingenious idea to make the wheel fit inside itself for protection while traveling! Thanks for asking for feedback! You are the BEST!
I design the whole spinning wheel around the bobbin size so if I were to design it so the EEW 6 bobbins worked then I would just use those bobbins. The point of making this work with 4 oz bobbins is it lets me make the base, maidens, and flyer smaller. This also lets me spin the flyer at higher speeds. I might someday update the EEW 6 to have some of these ideas (I probalby will), but the point of this design is it's smaller than the EEW 6.
I love this new machine especially the bigger bobbin- question will the new bobbin fit on the bigger machine? And what will hold the arms up ? Magnets would maybe help with the vibration
I can't really build in a battery. It makes shipping too difficult. I do have a plan to use RC batteries for the EEW Pro so people can add one of those and then have it charged. However, that adds a lot of cost and is not something that is practical for this price. Maybe someday I'll figure out a cheaper way to do that, but for now I think that sort of feature has to stay with the EEW Pro (which I am still working on, but is running into a lot of delays).
Brilliant! Even with the other pieces not folding in, a simple carry bag go out it all into is all you need. Love this!! Can’t wait to see the next update!
I love this idea. Will it have a metal orifice like the 6? I would much prefer that, and I love the in between size on the bobbins as well. As for the digital display, it would be a very nice feature to have, but not a "deal breaker". I do prefer the idea of the flat bottom, with the battery/storage compartment available as an added option/downloadable file.
Yes, I would buy this in a heartbeat! I travel frequently and often have to leave my wheels at home. This would be a great addition to my stable of wheels For more versatility while traveling, the bottom that could have a battery strapped on would be better.
Could there be a way for bobbins and the flyer to snap on the base or a storage case that snaps on the bottom like how sewing machines have little flip downs? Could be smaller for broken down bobbins but it'd be nice to store an assembled bobbin or two for works in progress. With it being foldable, battery seems necessity like you can do with the nano!
Honestly, if I were to use it, I would be using it with a battery pack. This means the flatter bottom isn't as useful for me. I like the idea of being able to spin a finer ply, so faster is nice. But I'm not sure I like having a smaller bobbin, since I tend to put 6-8 ozs on my EEW6 fliers. All that said, the idea of a foldable espinner sounds fun. I'm just not sure I travel often enough to desire that over my EEW6 wheel.
I’m interested in the folding wheel. The 4 oz bobbin is fine with me as I don’t spin bulky yarn. I like the idea of the rpm count window, as I find it a difficult to determine the exact speed with the dial on the EEW6 - I.e. is it set at 1.75 or 1.78 or something in between? I typically just plug into the wall but I always have the battery in place in the bottom case. I think the flat bottom is fine, with the ability to strap or clip the battery onto the base.
I like the "idea" of that, very cool. Cudos, you've outdone yourself again. Are the magnets strong enough to keep everything in place while you spin without becoming unstable or excessively noisy or will there be some sort of added measure to secure the sides in place? I have a nano and a 6 so I'm not likely to buy another just for that sort of convenience but I'm sure others would. Plus, it's nice to have a price point between the two and there will be folks that don't own an e-spinnsers yet that would like to purchase one. I spin for fun and by feel so I tend to like simple, no frills things because bells and whistles tend to open the door for more potential glitches. I have small batteries so I also have no need for a big box like that. Again, I'm sure others will want it or as an add on. I prefer the flat bottom. I know others like to be precise with their spinning but I have no use for a screen to see my rpm's. I'm sure I'm not in the majority of what someone wants/requires from their e-spinner lol.
I really wish this was available to put over the top of a sewing machine motor... As neat as the design for putting the battery in a compartment on the bottom to weight the machine, part of what I didn't like about that is having the flyer/orifice really high. That's one of the several big reasons I sold my EEW6 and switched to a Daedalus Sparrow. I sold the sparrow and got a Starling V3FP and Falcon V2FP, both of which sit higher and have the unattractive large clunky form factor controller with poor-usability-low-accessibility-placement-of-buttons/switches/plug, no-flat-pack bobbins, MUCH higher costs, long waiting periods, but the very low noise, VERY high speeds, and MUCH better low-tension-silent-brake make it a far better fit. I'm planning to come back if or when a comparable EEW (withOUT autowind to mess around with takeup and flyer arm speed max/noise). If this was close to the Nano in size, close to the Starling in near-zero tension, RPMs, and very low noise at 80%+ of max RPM (easily handling a 0.4mm kevlar brake band for 2500+ RPM for 3-6 hours at a stretch on a near-daily basis and bearings needed cleaning & repacking no more often than every 5K-10K hours of use) then I would probably get one. But I wouldn't want a battery compartment. Instead, I'd want room inside to attach auto tire balancing weights and a 3-5mm high durability closed cell foam pad adhered to the entire bottom surface to keep the unit from "traveling" across smooth doctor's office waiting room side tables. For my use case, high vibration/friction noise and lack of high-rpm have been the biggest pain points for the EEW as my daily super-lacd spinning hours have continued as years progress. I absolutely love that everything folds down into a single unit. If the flyer hooks could be rotated to be used to lock the flyer down onto the top surface of the unit without increasing flyer hook weight or causing the flyer to snag on things when I stick it into a pouch to carry everything in a large coat or purse pocket, then it would absolutely satisfy my high passion for uber-compact "EDC" high-function spinning tools.
@@DreamingRobotsBlog I was thinking about a hole (or three?) at the back into which the flyer could be inserted. Or maybe have the bottom a little bit taller?
That will get figured out during testing, but based on the current heat of the motor I don't think it will be a problem. There will be some natural venting when I add a few other features, but I can add more if needed.
I like this idea. And I can see me buying this wheel, too. I'm all for making things more portable and neater (as far as storage is considered). Love the idea of the mid sized bobbins, too. Will they fit the 6 as well?
That is certainly an option. It will be interesting to see what most people prefer. As I mentioned in the video, if I release thise I'd release both bottoms as 3D printable files, but I will only include one injection molded bottom with it.
I guess there is a market for a more portable option like this for people who go to events and bring their spinning with them. That's not me, but I know they're out there. And I think they would want the battery power first and foremost, as the option that ships with it. But in general this is so similar to the other products you offer, I don't really see the point of this one, if you are looking to purchase a primary spinner. I'm guessing this would mostly be purchased as a secondary spinner, for the purposes of travel. And, since travel is (usually) a small percentage of a person's time, this becomes a superfluous non-essential product that a person could live without. So I guess if I were you, I'd wonder how many people there are who'd be interested in that, and whether the potential sales would justify the R & D cost.