Stage6 Torque Control MKII Clutch Unboxing, Adjustment How-To & Results : TPR 86cc Build : Part 41 

Thanks!

Thank you!

Lick balls chopper!

Thanks!

There are some of us over here building scoots with parts from Europe and have been for years. It's just a small enthusiast group here compared to what seems like a large portion of younger people starting out hopping up scooters over there in the past. The most common stuff that I tend to see are Chinese 4Ts, then modified Ruckus' and lately Groms, and some Zumas and 2Ts. I really only see other scoots when I go to the beach though. People really don't ride small scoots in the country around me. Some people seem amazed if you ride one 10 miles somewhere, like they didn't even know that was possible and you had to have a Harley to go that far.

@@49ccscoot It's died down quite a lot over here. The biggest meet we have (Scooter-Weekend) had 8k visitors in 2011, now it's gone down to 800 in 2019. The forums are completely dead as well. When I got into scooters in 2013 you could really see the community start to die down, back then seeing one modified scooter a day was relatively normal, in 2003-2008 they were everywhere, now you see one every few weeks. I attribute that to two reasons: 1. After changes in 2014 other driver's licenses are more attractive. With 15 you can get a license that lets you go 25kph (15.5mph), the slowest (common) speed limit is 30kph. With 16 you can get one that lets you go 45kph (28mph) on a scooter, the next highest (common) speed limit over 30kph is 50. Or you can get one that lets you drive anything up to 125cc and 15hp, which tops out at around 120kph(74.5mph), and the 45kph scooters. Note that 50cc-base scooters that are faster than 45kph are illegal. So it barely makes any sense to get a scooter license when you can go way faster legally on a 125. 2. The police is incredibly strict now. They will pull you over very frequently. If you're found riding a illegally modified scooter you will most likely have to pay a fine (can be substituted by community service) and they can ban you from getting another drivers license for basically an indefinite amount of time, if they do you have to pass a psychological test that's very much rigged against you and quite expensive.

@@KacKLaPPeN23 I've heard from others about how strict it is over there. The psychiatric evaluation sounds odd; as if you'd have to be crazy to modify a scooter and ride faster than 30MPH. I think the only thing that saves us from strict regulations here is the lack of interest. Not a large percentage of the population rides scooters. I saw a report about motorcycle sales and even motorcycles below 450cc were down 60% in sales over a 10 year period, while larger bike sales increased. I think the only places that scooters are very common are cities and beach tourist towns. In the beach towns, at least around here, it's all about rentals which are often stock Chinese 4Ts so they may have wild riders but they aren't worrying anyone with their speed and power. In the cities, they're used a lot because they make sense for commuting on city streets, not so much because of licensing requirements or modifying.

Doesn't sound like a good time. Thanks for the info.

Sounds like fun. I saw that you asked if I tried a Hit clutch, but it looks like the comment is gone now. I tried that first. I did not like it at all. My modified stock clutch outperformed it. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-zSYt2T7z-Mw.html ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-VRHt1gib8vI.html

Go for it. I'm still happy with it after many many launches.

@@49ccscoot awesome. 🤙🏾

True, same here.

I never used them in mine and used the hard springs nearly maxxed and it would engage at around 11,500. The tranny started shifting at 13k and then over-revv to 15k. It didn't take much tuning so I may have gotten lucky on that build. We'll see how it goes on the next one.

I don't think I have a video about it. I do have some info here though : 49ccscoot.proboards.com/thread/359/lightening-stock-clutch

Right. I was going for grabbing harder. Less weight could let it slip more, which may or may not be good.

I avoided clutches for years. I always felt that there were no huge gains to be had if you were capable of lightening and balancing a stock clutch and changing springs. I still don't think they make sense if you have a budget to stick to on most builds, but once you start hunting for every tenth of a second or increase power quite a bit, they make sense.

You do not have to match the colors of clutch and contra springs. Select each one based on how they perform at their tasks.

I think it was by Kombat, but I can't even find it now. Something like 1000RPM, a little larger than standard to fit the OR.

I have this here in germany. But i cant find it any more. It was very good. not to soft, not to strong. Thank you for your fast answer

1.6mm white, 1.8mm orange, 2.0mm red.

It is still working very well for me so I've had no reason to modify it. Knurling could have positives and negatives. Maybe more grip, which could be good or bad for performance... but also perhaps more quickly wearing the clutch shoes.

I always recommend getting a couple of sets of springs and trying them to find out what works best with each setup. One of my stock clutches worked better with 1,000RPM and a replacement worked better with 2,000RPM so it's tough to say for sure.

I've got 2 clutch/bell setups now and haven't had any trouble with them. If you do indeed have too much space and it's not just an aggressive setting, lack of shoe mass or other factor causing slip then I would think you should notice uneven contact on the pads. They would likely be using less of the surface of the pads, primarily showing contact on the pad farthest from the pivot point.

No se puede pero si tienes alguna duda escríbela, un saludo

I bought the OR kit secondhand. Not sure what the original kit was for. I think it's the same rear pulley for any of the horizontal Minarelli scoots. Same splines for the bell on the Chinese driveshaft as the Yamaha.

The lighter components are more responsive. That can be good and bad.

Thanks. My goal is to not bore the folks that know this stuff too bad, while hopefully helping people that can use a bit of instruction. I'm often detail oriented, so when I do sort of how-tos, I try to be thorough because I know that I have questioned small details that others never covered when I've needed to look things up.

It's a 41mm socket. Huge. The OR comes with a 34mm IIRC, but the threads were a bit worn so I swapped to this one from a stock clutch. If you're asking about the actual thread dimensions, I've never checked that. Not something you're gonna pick up at a hardware store.

@@49ccscoot 41mm that's massive. Thanks

I have been told that Malossi Delta springs will work. I have not tried them.

I can't tell you about the GET motors, but I can say that I don't recall hearing many negative reviews of this clutch on anything that it's made for. I like it so much more than any clutch I've used. Good luck with a more specific answer.

I don't recall seeing any, but if you get in touch they may be able to help.

A clutch like the S6 is more tunable and you can see that I did improve my acceleration with it. My stock clutch is lightened (being sure to keep equal weight on each shoe) and uses heavier springs. It worked well. The S6 installed pretty easily and weight of the shoes and springs are easily changed, plus it allows fine adjustment of spring tension. The whole purpose for any of them is how well they can get you off of the line. If you aren't very competitive with your times, you can probably mod a stock clutch to work with stiffer springs. Hopefully the racing clutches are less prone to warping like stock clutches though.

I don't believe they make these for large scoots, but there are aftermarket clutches for many larger scoots.

It should help the clutch grab a bit more, reducing slip; so maybe.

Most obvious tip IMO is to see if you need that stiff spring. It may be that a softer spring with lighter rollers works well and is less hassle.

The CVT is spinning the rear pulley and clutch quickly. Clutch RPM isn't really engine RPM. It's rear pulley RPM. So the clutch doesn't want to disengage till you're going slow because the it's spinning fast when you're moving. Maybe shimming the variator will help, but that can change the rest of the tune.

@@49ccscoot I think my pulley is hitting the bell and holding it.

Do you happen to have the part number on the belt that you recommend so I can look it up? Thanks.

@@49ccscoot U248.040.2

@@Ben-os9nq Thank you, but it's too short for my CVT. It's 785 length. I'm currently using 815 and stock was 788.

@@49ccscoot ahh shit my bad, wrong one. here's the one i meant www.rrd-preparation.com/en/belts-piaggio-50cc/17630-belt-polini-racing-evolution-kevlar-scooter-piaggio-gilera-vespa.html

@@Ben-os9nq Thank you. That thing is wide. ~3mm more than the 6111108 Malossi.

YT removed PM functions long ago. I answer PMs on the forum or there's a contact page on my site.

@@49ccscoot it was in reference to getting a spacer like you made for your rear pulley. My sliding half touches my malossi delta clutch. and wont let my pulley fully open as well.

@@artistsunitedfront Contact info is on my site. Get in touch that way or in a PM on the forum. You could leave your email here if you want, but I prefer not to post that sort of thing directly here.

I never tried the Delta. I've used DrPulley HiT and some cheaper clutches before as well as modified stock. I tried the Torque Control and liked it so much that I didn't even get it with my RC1. I parted it out and picked up another Torque Control instead.

@@49ccscoot I'm thinking about Delta and Stage6 Torque Control. Do you recommend the S6 clutch? Does it have any advantages and disadvantages?

@@krystian9439 I can't tell you vs the Delta from any personal experience. I have had other people that have used the Delta and other clutches tell me that the S6 is the best they've used. For me, I like the adjustability that it provides and the ease of use. It delivers results. After using a HiT clutch that was an expensive piece and not being able to make it do what I needed, I was sold on the S6 and don't have any great desire to try others for now.

Just under 34mm OD. 28.2mm ID. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-dBDql9KbNTA.html

Would you have some for sale ? Need about 1 mm

@@fernandocasagrande7901 I replied to your email.

More RPM just lead to worse times so continuing should only make it worse. If I could get it to stop shifting before engagement, it may be different. Could also be that it would do better with less shoe mass and more slip.

The only way to know what's best is to try them. I don't mean this to sound rude, but that's why it's called tuning. One size does not fit all. This is why you see me testing.

@@49ccscoot thank you 😃

That's fine. They don't have to match. As long as each one works as you'd like.

@@49ccscoot Tnx sir i hope someday you make a video about best cvt tunning for yamaha nmax 155 godbless and more power

Start here : ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-rw5wybzfjwU.html It's a 2 part video all about liquid cooled conversion of a horizontal Minarelli (like a Jog basically). You don't need water cooled cases. Just the cylinder is water cooled.

4.875g sliders

@@49ccscoot thanks:)

You can use another bell as long as it is the same size. You are probably going to lose the ability to do all of the adjustments without removing the bell.

What do bell weights influence? acceleration, top speed or torque?@@49ccscoot

@@krystian9439 Generally, I think bell weight is gonna be a fine tuning thing. Heavier can kinda smooth things out, but you probably won't notice a big difference.

I never have found anything that does well for me with the Lectron. I can make it go WOT and idle, but pistons are flying off of shelves if I try to use part throttle. The 2-2 at 2.036" was the best performance I've had, but again part throttle is dangerous. A 2-3 at 2.054" helped with some of the throttle, but it's still way lean in the mid-throttle range. I have a 2-4, but haven't tried it. Going up to 3 to 6 series rods is just too much fuel for my setup.

Will stay on this post Ya noticed that too with mid throttle myself 2-2 was way to lean imo And I’m turning timing back too c if helps with heat I know it’s helped so much on low end for sure

@@burleighlewis9917 Retarding timing may help. I know mine runs fine with another carb, so I've been against the idea of backing down timing to fix a mixture issue.

Well update on lectron and rich is the answer imo 2.025 3-3 6m rod goes way better Very little choppy at low end Temps are good and plug looks good too 👍

Oh forgot power jet 3/4-7-8 turn

I rode for 6 hours in traffic one day just last weekend. Works for me.

I don't think so. I believe it can fit the GY6 50.

Erp. Derp. I mean less steep groove in the torqueconverter. When the engine pulls the belt, it pulls to twist the rrar pulley in the direction of the groove that closes it down to low gear. If too steep a groove is selected, then the centrifugal force in the rollers will overcome the twist force in the rear by the pull, and it will shift up in gear rather than down or steadying. I think.

The shifting CVT has been an issue for me forever basically. Probably 10 years ago, I spent a whole day swapping contra springs and weights to see if I could fix it on one of my 2Ts. I hit a wall. If I go heavier on the contra, then I have to go heavier on weights and vice versa. Whatever I do, it wants to act the same way, just with different weights and springs. I haven't spent tons of time on that sort of tuning since. Shimming has made the most difference, just getting that rear pulley to spin slower, but I can only go so far with a real riding setup before it has major effects everywhere. It's been awhile since I switched grooves in the torque driver, but the other set of grooves made the RPM spread wider.

@@49ccscoot i had a big question for years. Getting the answer was a bigger piece in the puzzle than i imagined. The question was: Since the cvt shifts smoothly as the speed rises, but the rpm is constant, hence the centeufugal force of the rollers is constant, What Force is changing linearly as the speed climbs, to allow for the cvt to linearly change gearing ? I didnt get an answer until two years ago when a danish tuner did some vasic explanations on the cvt and showed me how the torque converter grooves align with the direction the belt is accelerated! When the engine yanks the belt, it yanks the rear pulley through its groove to a low gear. And when closing the throttle it engine brakes slightly, the momentum of the bike pushing the rear wheel, pushing the clutch bell, in turn pushing the pulley the opposite way of the groove to open up for high gear. I got that this was the missing piece to my puzzle back then, but i couldnt fit it in my head. But one day it dawned on me. The balance relationship between 4 factors or more, change smoothly with the increasing vehicle speed, allowing the cvt to change smoothly. 1 the centrifugal force of the rollers 2 contra spring 3 angle of groove 4 power of engine in relation to resistance for vehicle to accelerate smoothly changes with speed, wind resistance etc. I still dont have it down in my head to the point where i can explain it in simple terms to a five year old. But il pretty confident the imbalance in your setup, namely the low part, is due to the rollers centrifugal force/contra spring balance is overwhelming the groove angle in the beginning. The lesser groove angle will require you to lighten the rollers, which will disturb the balance at higher speeds, requiring a slightly softer or shorter contraspring. I use a malossi torsion controller thibgie to adjust contraspring length(pretension) If i out it in one end, it precompresses about 2,5mm. But if i put it in the pulley side, it precomps about 4,5mm. Saves me money on buying contra springs

@@49ccscoot of course torsioncontroller isnt ideal. It increases the force required to the fully compress also, not only precompression. But it should illustrate the need for increasing your groove torque parameter, in order to tame that launch beltmovement. I would actually think a wider cvt range is desirable for street use. Allows peak power at wot, but low cruising rpm. Bigger range. That of course reduces precisiom when applying throttle out of a corner by reducing sensitivity. But it should be possible to get it to work well all across the spectrum. Its bot rocket science, but it aint simple stuff either thats for sure Edit its *not rocket science

@@49ccscoot the proportion of force directed through the torque driver groove i think needs to be increased, relative to the constant force of the rollers cebtrifugally pushing against the contrasprings rewistance in the beginning

The rear pulley is part of the Malossi La Furia Rossa over range CVT kit. It's not worth buying on it's own IMO, as the entire kit is a better deal and more effective. The bell and clutch are sold separately. You can check current prices on all of them from ScooterTuning.Ca. The Stage6 stuff has had a lot of stock issues pretty much anywhere that I looked since the pandemic started.

Make sure there's no bearing mismatch or pulley issue to blame first. If that looks good, see how the bell and clutch match up. If the bell is totally covering the clutch, you aren't likely to be able to machine much. If the clutch is visible and it appears that the bell is sitting outward too far, then maybe.

@@49ccscoot I'm running a 107mm ncy 3 adjustment torque driver "rear pulley" I've had a few clutches and bells now on a few scoots and haven't ran into this problem yet, till now. Like I know one day I'll upgrade to OR cvt but I don't want to get it machined and then it not work anymore when I finally upgrade. But I guess that's what spacers are for right? I was just trying to see if this was a common thing to have to do on a keeway 1e40qmb long case style motor.if I'm not mistaken the CVT cover needs to be on because 1 they aren't strong enough to ride around like that, and 2 the input shaft to the final drive gearbox needs the bearing in the cover causr theres only one bearing in the gearbox for that shaft. It will make the gears not mess correctly.

@@49ccscoot and yes the clutch is visible. About 2 mm showing

@@traviswilliams9455 You're correct that you should use the CVT cover to reinforce the case and to make use of the bearing for the primary drive shaft. You can see my experience with a clone engine in this video. Definitely a tight fit, but not preventing the cover from being installed. One thing about the cover is that there are variations. Some are deeper than others. My over range and likely clutch would be a problem with the smaller versions of the cover. The larger version allows more clearance, but in some cases doesn't let the shaft reach far enough into the bearing for proper support. Large covers were common on the youth ATVs with these engines, like the older Polaris 50-90cc ATVS. You may be able to make it work for this with machining now and then space it out if needed on later setups. A larger cover may give more clearance, but it won't solve the lack of threads for the bell nut so spacing adjustments are the only way to fix that.

I've got a TaoTao 50, TMAX 500, moped with a 160cc, had a GY6. They don't do what the 2T does.

@@49ccscoot : I would go nuts if I had to scream around at 7,000 RPM and above. You must have a very calm demeanor. I mean, if we were best friends and I lived next door, I still would not ride with you under that screaming 2-stroke. If I had the choice, I would put you on a 250 to 500 thumper and probably something in a Honda. Something with real grunt 4-stroke power. I love a super torque 4-stroke growl because it does it all; slow, fast, and quiet when you take advantage of the low RPM grunt. Also, that 2-stroke is going to wear out fast running at that RPM. You'll need to hone the barrel and replace rings often. A strong thumper can last many years. I learned a lot from your clutch video though and really enjoyed seeing the different settings. Thank you for that. I ride a Tao Tao Bull 200 ATV. Really love the bike. I made a ton of videos on it, but have never loaded anything on RU-vid. I will though. I am going to have a Tao Bull 200 dedicated channel. That is why I found your clutch video; because I am looking to upgrade the stock variator and clutch. You made a very good presentation on the clutch. Even though you went for high RPM, it still showed me how to set it for my needs which is to have the clutch engage early at about 1500 RPM, so I can putt around and use my torque. I up-geared the Tao Bull for more top speed because I had enough torque to spare. That Bull 200 is a beast. It has serious power between 1500 and 5000 RPM. I only weigh 143lbs so giving up some low end for top speed was worth it and yet, it still climbs fine with the higher gearing. I wonder how you would feel about a 232cc big bore GY6 with power cam and large valves?

@@donkeyhole2782 It doesn't make sense for a street setup, but I'm the opposite and love high revs. If I ever see one that I can afford, I'd pick up an old CBR250RR from the days when they could rev out to 20,000RPM. My favorite things to listen to are formula one cars (before the low rev turbo era) and things like that. The big GY6 builds are nice, but many of them have had their share of reliability issues too.

No need for top 3. Just get this one IMO. I went out and got another for my next project. Malossi Delta clutch is popular as well and I'd expect it to be good. I would not buy a DrPulley HiT clutch again. I have videos of that and I was very disappointed in that clutch.

That's a tradeoff. So it may go quicker right off the line and then slower everywhere else.

Yes.

@@49ccscoot with what color did you get your best result ? for hard clutching ? sorry for my english im a german guy :)

@@ThinMintGirlScoutCookiez The Stage6 red or the purple springs both worked well for me. They could achieve similar results at different adjustment levels. More room to dial it back with the red springs. More room to increase RPM with the purple.

@@49ccscoot thank you so much for your quick answer Mate 🙃🙂

@@ThinMintGirlScoutCookiez Glad to help!

120/70-12 and 130/70-12

Oddly enough, I've never really used a flat slide. I've been putting serious thought into getting something bigger though and going that route.

GForceMX

Thanks​@@49ccscoot

Not sure of the brand, but when I picked out the powdercoat it was "fluorescent neon yellow". They are ridiculous in person.

I'd put a yasuni r or stage6 pro replica on there. The voca pipe is a beast from what i can tell. Works at high rpm and gives a ton of power. Maybe a yasuni c16 if you think 12hp at 10'750 rpm is too little.

Lifeisawheelie I have pro rep I was thinking to try this thank u 🙏

@@elizabethmcheffey8699 also a smaller carburetor i think could make it behave better. 30mm pwk is big for s6 racing mk2.

I agree with the idea to try a more mild exhaust. There's a big difference in my 86cc with the 10,500RPM Peace Pipe vs the 14,000RPM MHR. It's a much better rider with the comparatively mild exhaust. You also shouldn't need that huge carb when you swap to a lower rev pipe, so you may be able to use something different there if you want.

What's wrong with it?

@@49ccscoot TFC Lighter CNC clutch bell with extreme air vent in order to keep the clutch cooler and more grip.

50mm