Thank you 🙏 i was Baptized in October 2020. Left August 2022. Still remain Faithful to my Faith in Jesus Christ 🙏❤️ Going to a different Church. Happier and More Peaceful than Ever ❤❤❤❤
I was a member of this church from 1993-2003. The Henry Kriete letter was proof I wasn’t insane for all the abuses I had witnessed and suffered. People’s mental health meant nothing to leadership who felt their agenda was more important than getting an education, decent work, etc. I have PTSD because of this group and I have not been able to step into a church since and probably never will. But church is not a building and never was. There are ways to stay to God that don’t include destroying your health and breaking people’s spirit psychologically. I understand how you feel still loyal to some of them, but I do not and will not.
I followed your sermons a little when you were at the Columbus Church. I often prayed that you’d turn away from Kip McKean and their practices. I rejoice that I see a heart of grace in you now as opposed to the previous man you were. Continue my brother to study God’s grace and see that His salvation is by His grace alone and not by anything we do. This truth will help you my friend.
I was a member for 11 years. Took 7 years for me to sort myself out. I have turned back to God again, but after I left, I really didn't like Christianity. Now when I look at the scriptures 'wolves in sheep's clothing'....it makes sense, that there certainly are wolves out there, longing to control us, no shame in hounding us for money, going to all meetings etc. They are not following Jesus at all. This time, I don't listen to man, but I 'enter through the sheep pen' (ie go to God on my knees directly). 'My sheep know my voice, and the voice of a stranger they will not follow'. It's a much more joyful, peaceful path for me in my walk with the Lord now. Oh and I follow the Holy Spirit's guidance too, not man. Such a relief. PS. Pls don't take the microchip when it comes out. This is the Mark of the Beast in Revelations. Probably something not taught in these churches, who will end up deceived.
Thank you for sharing. I got baptised last month - January 14th. And had so many questions to do with the extent of measures we had to go through daily/weekly! It’s so insane to me how we are called to love one another yet everything about that church seemed like it was to isolate ourselves from everyone including our family!! I got told to leave my job because it didn’t aligned with the times of church service and even to contribute so much despite them knowing I just gotten a job after been jobless for a month. I was told that I idolised my job because I chose to go to the training for work rather than attending the midweek service. After telling them I’ve chosen to go out and find God on my own and have my own convictions about my walk with God they condemned me and said In choosing to side with the devil and be part of the darkness again - fallen away. My last straw was being told from the church leader herself that I’m “a very sinful person” despite me just telling her my stresses and coming to the realisation that I have emotional trauma etc.
The Lord exposes their wicked fruit every day, praise the Lord that you were able to leave that cult before they indoctrinated you further. The longer you stay, the hardee it is to leave, from my personal experience. Jesus saves, not an organization that idolizes works and power structures.
I was in the church for a short time as well, and got baptized with the ICC South Gate Chicago branch. They told me that if I could not go to their Friday night devotionals, that I should quit my job and my “mentor” asked me if I was devoted to my relationship with God. I tried to come up with ways to meet with fellow disciples at my house before I went to work, but he turned it back into saying I should just ask for Fridays off again and if it doesn’t happen I should quit. I spend almost every night now trying to learn more about god, my path, and who I can actually trust to help and mentor me in my relationship with God. I trust with my heart that I’m on the right path with God, and the more I seek him the more I will come to realize. God bless you!
Thank you for courageously standing up for the truth! When the Scriptures are properly taught and applied, there is always division - and you’ve struck a nerve where the rules of men concerning giving money to the church contradicted the Word. Keep it up!
We were told how much to give. Any delay resulted in a visit to our home. Felt like a shakedown. Members who “obeyed” regarding giving, were instructed to go on stage and sign a poster board so people could see the obedience. Pharisee!
My heart breaks when I am listening to you. Truth is mor important than unconditional loyalty. Thank you for your courage and love to share the word with us. (I am a disciple since '98 in Germany )
Leaving the ICC or ICOC doesn't mean leaving God. 26 years ago when I informed my roommates that I was leaving, one of them said to me, "You know you are leaving God, right"? I told him that I didn't believe that anymore. And I was right.
Hi. You have quite the story and I am amazed how you work through all this. I left the ICOC back in 1996. I joined in 1993. I originally visited the Rhode Island ICOC when I was teen after my sister joined and left Catholicsm. She was in college at the time and encountered their college ministry. She was baptized and married in the Church. I was 16 at the time. I left for the Air Force after high school and at my 1st duty assignment I met the Diskipples at the Greatland Christian Church, as the local mainline CoC wouldn't let them call it the CoC. Anchorage, AK. Yes, I went from Rhode Island a tiny state, to another contintent. The abuse started not too long after and I gave up my military career, joined the campus ministry and went hungry and into debt for the Kingdom. I managed to earn my degree and live on Ramen. They told me to go into debt to eat instead of helping me. I was eventually "marked" as a trouble maker for questioning anything. That was evil. I eventually graduated, barely, due to depression, and packed up everything I had to go home to Rhode Island. The Church there was just as abusive. I thought it would be better as my sister and I talked through many of the abusive issues I experienced. She didn't say the things local leasership told me. I really thought it would be different and leadership would be also. I quit about 5 months after I came home. I did not remain faithful, it destroyed what little fsith I had left and I put faith as far away as I could. I still live in the R.I. area and haven't been in a church since, except for funerals. It took me decades to even pick my bible up again and my current friends who "call themselves Christians" have a difficult time understanding me and how messed up my life was and how I haven't really recovered. It's an open wound to me. May you serve according to the measure of faith given you. God bless.
Thank you for sharing this. Money is a big driving factor that pushed me away, I had to do things that caused my anxiety to rise and not have money for my basic needs like rent or food not cool ICC
You speak the truth. Matthew 7:15- "Beware of false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves." Another synonym for "ravenous" is "insatiable," which is defined by "IMPOSSIBLE to satisfy." Narcissistic leaders will NEVER have enough of anything and will NEVER be satisfied. Whatever they get is NEVER enough; they want more money, more recognition, more numbers. All to satisfy their own personal greed and fragile egos, which MUST be constantly served, OR ELSE...Sadly, it's mostly the young people who are bullied and manipulated because they haven't had the life experience yet, to understand and recognize religious charlatans. A hard way to learn but BEWARE the wolves....by their fruits, they WILL be known. Don't be bullied and give nothing out of "compulsion," which is defined by force or coercion (2 Corinthians 9:7). Literally THOUSANDS of believers woke up and realized that they had been duped and spiritually abused for decades by a system...and the rest is history. Wake up....and don't repeat our same mistakes. Do you not yet recognize the pattern???
Coltin, I appreciate you taking the time to explain your stance and to not leave it to others to fill in the blanks and answer the questions. In general I would say that we all would like to believe that we are drinking from a pure stream. After all, we would not hold our convictions if we did not believe them to be true. In the ICC / ICOC we have all been challenged from the beginning to be a Berean of Noble character (Acts 17:10-12). What is the proper course of action if we believe something that we are being taught is not true? How do we have a healthy discourse on matters of opinion or the scriptures? A lesson was preached in Boston in the early 90’s in which was roughly said - “If anyone would show us through the scriptures that what we believed or we were doing wasn’t true or right we would stop right there and change! That is such a lie.” Over my 35 years as a disciple I have found this to be true, change is tough. Lastly, One teacher said that “Sometimes we believe we are thinking, but all we are doing is rearranging our prejudices”. Through all of this I hope everyone has the courage to stop and truly listen and consider an honest discussion. I will be praying for you and Mandy, and that through all of this you may have a Happy New Year.
Thank you Paul. I have always said, “if we are doing something wrong you can show from the scriptures, I will change it”. I thought this was the entire churches stance. When there was no changing it, I resigned and walked away. I still believe this doctrine: the Bible is the Standard. No matter what it costs, no matter the pain, we must let Jesus be Lord. Amazing how God comforts you at times of pain inflicted by friends.
Very well done. Left ICOC in 2007, got restored in 2015 and am struggling with a lot of what you speak of here with the current leadership where I live with my church which is in the ICOC. The cowardice and inability for leadership to speak out against wrongs of the Church and "cover" for Church leaders is very disheartening and discouraging. Not sure what I'm going to do yet, not quite ready to quit, but getting close...very sad. A woke church is a broken church. A church of cowards is NOT God's church.
New subbie here, I was baptized in the ICC in 09/2011 and left 11/2016. I don’t regret it. I also agree with why you made the decision to stand up for the truth. I’m sorry you and your family got marked. Sadly not surprised. I’ll pray God continues to guide you. Best of luck!
They were marked? That’s a badge of honor. I’m struggling with envy. Wait! Envy is a sin. Sorry, those old tapes are still running in my head 20 years later.
Isso mesmo irmão, continue firme , Deus vai usar muito sua vida e sua decisão corajosa de ir contra um sistema que achávamos que havia acabado mais na verdade ainda está aí bem profundo em muitos corações. Deus vai mostrar pra muitos e ajudá-los a serem corajosos também. Estamos aqui no mesmo barco e toma e mesma decisão. Acredito em tudo que vc falou somos filhos amados do Pai e não é uma instituição religiosa que vai tirar isso de nós. Porque que nós chamou foi Cristo.
Stumbled upon your videos while browsing other videos on what's going on with the ICC and ICOC movements these days. Currently, I am a ministry leader at an independent Church of Christ that was formally associated with the ICOC. We no longer are. I've been around since 1984 so I have seen (and experienced) quite a few things over the years. Honestly, I was hoping to see evidence these movement are "getting it" and that these types of stories are a thing of the past, but unfortunately that is so not the case. To be fair, some ministries are but it appears to be business as usual in many other ministries. I am deeply grieved to hear that these abuses are still happening, decades after the wake-up call we all received through the Kriete Letter. I am grieved by the deep wounds being left in the hearts of those that simply want to serve God wholeheartedly and genuinely, but end up getting hurt and exploited. I both admire and applaud your courage to take a stand for Christ and to protect the integrity of his church at some very painful costs. Prayerfully, more leaders will have the courage to follow your example, and even to be willing to be put out of the "synagogues" of these movements in standing up for biblical integrity. The truth must continue to be told until we become the body of Christ God called us to be. I have much love and respect for my brethern in these movements and beyond.
Thank you for this brother 🙏. I just recently left the church 2 months ago ill be 2yrs spiritually in may and the toughest thing for me is unpacking false Doctrine. Idk how the holy spirit can lead me when there's conflicting beliefs going on in my mind.
You have so much integrity and you are handling this with God’s grace. Thanking God for you brother. I’ve been feeling the same way and been trying to do research but usually I only run into people who have left the church and their faith. (Not discrediting their experience or reason for making that choice but) I’ve been trying to find someone who has been in the word and it able to stand for the truth and call out where there is lies and harmful teachings. Thanks for using your voice to ultimately share the word of God.
I love the good things about this movement and I can see there are so many believers trapped because they have built true connections and fellowship and they have come to know Jesus in a system that is man made. I pray for them because I am in contact with them and I am addressing all of my issues to see if I can partner with them in mission. I can see this would have to be a move of God. I am hoping to find anyone that are really sold out to join me in mission starting from Ghana. I was hoping this would of been a good partnership but I can see that the genuine believers that have left for truth could be the very people im looking for connect with me if you are a missionary that have left but still looking for true connections with someone ready to embark of missions in Africa. Thank you so much for your insight
Thank you for taking a stand Colton. I was in the IE Region. I had seen you around in "Superregionals" but never had a chance to meet you. While I was there I spoke up on things that I saw were wrong. I right away noticed some of the people I was around had the same concerns but were afraid too speak up. Easy to say I wasn't the most popular guy. I wasnt a yes man and it seemed like thats what they wanted out of me when it came to this topic. There needs to be more sermons like these. Thanks again.
Aside from money, there were many other reasons why my family stopped attending. It was tough. I had planned on returning when new leadership was implemented. But what really struck deep and painfully was the rejection and abandonment. People I loved and still love no longer speak with us. My young daughter with autism yearns for playdates and companionship of my former discipler's children and the other little ones she had called her brothers and sisters. Why reject children? We still serve the Lord, but we just don't attend services from this organization. I miss the fellowship and that family feeling. But I don't miss being looked down on and being an outcast because I had questions about scriptures vs. their practices. And the fact I don't wear dresses because I am self conscious of my physical appearance. I don't miss the accusations and assumptions. I don't miss the text messages about my weight loss plan. I love every single member of the church I attended. The problem is not them. The issue is when I had questions I was suddenly discarded as is demanded by this particular organization.
Beautiful, truly the correct interpretation of being fruitful. the ICC/ICOC conclusion that being fruitful is making more disciples is only arrived at when the scriptures are butchered into providing pretext. If we listen to the Holy Spirit and start to learn to say yes in working with him, great things await us. It is not about everyone trying to be an evangelist, although some will be called to this roll, after all how can a body be made of just 1 part - its not everyone's role to be the hand. A couple of favourite scripture of mine: Matthew 25:31-46 ending in: "“He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’" Hebrews 13:1-3 focusing on: "Do not forget to show hospitality to strangers, for by so doing some people have shown hospitality to angels without knowing it." Sadly ICOC/ICC leadership seemed fixated upon money and numbers and (at least in my branch) neglecting the poor even within our own church membership. Ever try to withhold part of your weekly tithe and instead give it to a brother or sister who was really struggling? Watch that go down like a lead balloon.
I wonder if anybody is interested in a zoom meeting on this topic/issue? There's no denying something is wrong if this amount of people have had this same experience. Has it crossed anyone's mind to confront Leadership with 2 or 20 witnesses of these experiences? I have to add...in love of course.
In the description of your channel you write „Since leaving God has shown me more scriptures that the ICC has twisted to meet an agenda“. And that is exactly the point: For these people it is not about God, it is not about Jesus, it is not about the Bible, it is not about loving your next. It is about their agenda they pretend it comes directly from God. I say this after 20 years of membership in an ICOC church and 12 years of friendship with a high ICC leader from LA. When I asked this leader to read the bible with my 15 year old son it came out, that this high leader was totally empty regarding own faith and own beliving. His only message to my son he always repeated: „Join our movement, join our movement, join our movement!“ This emptyness of real faith shocked me deeply and opened my eyes regarding the leaders of this movement.
I have been a member of this church in Lagos Nigeria and it is one of the most manipulative cults I know with the most dangerous doctrine and practices. This doctrine of salvation by baptism alone. That it is the one and only true church of God and everybody outside of it will end up in hell. The fact that they control your life and marriage under the umbrella of being their brother's keeper. The whole church system is just another invisible set of chains to hold down its captives
I recently joined this church and I had to write a sin list and after that I would be baptized, but something is holding me back from getting baptized because I know I am not ready. I want to build a relationship with God first before I get Baptized. They even told me that at some point I had to maybe quit my job to attend their activities. I am so confused because I want to be saved by Jesus but I am not ready to get baptized
@@NwaLioness Baptism is good for us all as children of God obeying the father's commands... But I won't advise you get in with this sect. Take that which is true.. which you have been taught and walk away. Seek a Bible believing church... Or at best... Devote your time to personal Bible study and get to know the lord and His word on a personal level.... I can always help you out if you need a brother
Thanks for sharing this Coltin I would go further with the foundation from the start. The problem with the ICC fellowship is the way the bible is taught what i mean is most sermons taught by ICC preachers are topical so the preacher can use the bible to forward his agenda and he can takes passages out of context to bring his or her point. I believe the best model is expository preaching which mean the teach goes through a whole book at a time with context and understanding. One of the best teacher for this he is now in Glory with the Lord is David Pawson which i had the pleasure of meeting he is really good with this model. He has a series called unlocking the bible it really good and you can find it on youtube.
The ICC lacks heavily in biblical exposition. David Pawson and John MacArthur are great expositors of the bible (granted you understand their denominational background and leanings). From what I see and hear, many teaching or preaching the Bible within the ICC heavily lean into eisigesis and lack proper exegesis. This probably is why they fall into the trap of proof texting most of their sermons... because they'd rather make a point than teach context. But context is always the great killer of heresy. And for the record - I am generalizing most of the ICC teachers. I do not know and have not seen them all teach. But the apple doesn't fall far from the tree and it's certainly within their culture.
I fought tooth and nail with the leaders of this church concerning the issue of salvation. They always twist the scriptures to their own gain and if you are without sound biblical knowledge.. what they show you may look very very true
The best thing about this church is that they teach and require members to study their Bible and challenge them to make it their standard for life. Because the Holy Spirit will make it intolerable to stay in this group. I left it 32 yrs ago and my college age son calls me up yesterday and is telling me he has a friend who’s been sucked into and wants to leave after only 3 weeks. Praise the Lord his friend won’t have to heal after years of emotional manipulation, coercion, and abuse. Almost every friend I had in the church has managed to leave. For some it took years, for others decades. I know some who are so wounded that they fear joining another group of believers. But many are strong, Jesus-loving, Bible-obeying Christians today. What is the leaving rate? 80-90% when you look at it over a long time, like a decade or 2?
I wouldn't go as far as to commend them for aspiring their members to study and challenge them. On the contrary, they have 1 script that they use to indoctrinate. and if you really decided to challenge their doctrine, they put you a "struggling list." The Scripture is clear. We study to show ourselves approved before God and test ALL Spirits. not blindly follow a cult leaders' private interpretation of scripture in order to maintain membership in an organization filled with a bunch of Yes-men. upon leaving the organization, I've been more Bible literate. and actually know MORE about theology and how to build on and be secured about my salvation/relationship with God. once you realize that their entire motive is to keep people do profit them financially, it becomes very evident that its nothing more than multi level marketing whilst taking God's name for sake of "evagelism", they're prostituting the very name of God.
I left the church like 3m ago it was very hard to be honest been part of it for so many years! Also trying to learn more accurate my biggest thing Is being “born again” is it after baptism which is what I tend to lean but John 1:13 says it is not by human decision
I remember you and your wife back in the day. You always seemed like nice people caught up in unfortunate circumstances (the movement). Glad you two got out of it and are thinking for yourselves. In Him - an old time brother in Christ
Thank you for making it public (on youtube) as you left the ICC. That will help a lot of people. You're in the same category as Robert Hach from the Boston/Crossroads era and Henry Kriete from ICOC, in my opinion. I hope that wasn't too confusing. Either way both men challenged KMcK. New subscriber...I was baptized at Crossroads COC before the Discipleship Movement was Reconstructed by Kip in Boston and left during that time. Obviously this was before the ICC but not very different from the ICOC before HK Letter. Anyway, good to hear you are leaving, hope it goes well for you. It takes a lot of courage to do what you're doing but God gave us a spirit of boldness. We know there is life in Christ beyond the ICC and the ICOC for that matter. If someone is still in those churches that's up to them, abide in Christ and know our commitment is to Jesus Christ and not to a man, a movement, or to a church. We have freedom in Christ in context of Galatians 5. Anyway I left more than a few decades ago, baptized while in high school and left when in the college ministry. For me I went to an Independent Christian Church and after being back in Gainesville I bounced around some until I found Calvary Chapel. I can safely so no group of churches or denomination (or even a non-denom. denomination) has it all together. What matters are we free to spend TIME in fellowship with Christ and be led by the Holy Spirit. Too much interference by over lording discipleship is not keeping in step with the Holy Spirit. For anyone reading let the Holy Spirit lead you which doesn't mean isolation but not having so many controlling people giving you "advice" over every detail of your life that you can't even think for yourself. IDK what everyone's story is, obviously, but I know mine and how I learned to simply abide in Christ. Before making my exit I was glued to these scriptures for almost 2 years. They were my place of refuge and I did not care if Crossroads/Discipleship Movement or the mainline COC agreed with my understanding or not. Keep in mind the COC did not even believe the INDWELLING of the Holy Spirit (most didn't) in the early days of the Restoration Movement. Think of the baggage, the leaven, that is associated with thinking that way. And yes Crossroads believed in the indwelling of the Holy Spirit for all Christians but they had that leaven seeped into them. Gal 5:25 "If we live by the Spirit, let us also KEEP IN STEP with the Spirit." I Jn 2:24-27 "Let what you heard from the beginning abide in you. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, then you too will abide in the Son and in the Father. And this is the promise that he made to us[e]-eternal life. I write these things to you about those who are trying to deceive you. But the ANOINTING that you received from him abides in you, and you have no need that anyone should teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about everything, and is true, and is no lie-just as it has taught you, abide in him." And finally ALL of 1st Corinthians 2. There were many scriptures but these are the basics. Now these scriptures helped me, for someone else there's others that is obvious. But knowing I can be taught by the Holy Spirit and not a man made system meant everything to me...and I saw it as man made. Jesus did not die for us to put us in bondage to a false religious system. Much respect to Rohn family for leaving I know it's not an easy thing to do especially for someone in leadership.
I watched a sermon of the ICC which made one particular contributions talk. In part if the message, they said that If you had set yourself a contributions goal whichbyou were unable to meet that you need to repent and find a way to give. Speak to your discipler, let them look at your bank account to see what you can give. so many things are wrong with that! 1. The Bible says your left hand should know your right hand he's doing, so this is a contradiction of this scripture. 2 This ia an invasion of privacy and against, GDPR regulations. No discipler should have access to your personal finances. If you need advice, simply speak to someone who is good with their money to budget better. 3.The Bible also says that we must be cheerful givers. NO-one and I mean noone has the authority or right to tell you how much you should give. This has to be between you and God only. 4. The fact that the church feels THEY should determine what their congregation should give them rather than leaving it up to the individual is disgusting. 5. I even had a conversation with one of the leaders about this, and they tried to deflect by stating the passage the couple in the bible who lied about what they were donating after selling their house as a means to show members need to be sacrificial. This passage was about deceit no giving. Bottom line he was using scriptures to manipulate listeners. To do what the church is telling him rather than what God is actually telling him or her.
@@rohnfamilyadventure I can do but please allow me some time as I need to find the video again. I do believe it was sometime in 2020 or 2021 before the yearly conference
I used to live in London. I had a great friendship with many of the people in this video. I listened to the contribution message. Building a loyalty and dependence on a church rather than God. Did you catch that you are in sin and need to repent if you don’t come up with the Special Missions goal the ICC is asking for… such a twisting of scripture to meet an agenda. 2 Corinthians 9:7! Where are the prophets who will preach the whole Bible?
@rohnfamilyadventure exactly. Yes I did catch that he claimed they were in sin for not meeting the contribution. I also recognise that the special is something that the church instigated with as far as I'm aware has no scriptural basis, therefore how is it a sin and need to repent? That word 'Repent' was weaponized to 'Challenge' the church to fall in line with their polices.
I wonder how these water gospel preachers reconcile their beliefs with Paul's strong emphasis on 'justification by faith. How counter intuitive it is with gospel they are promoting. Are they not troubled when Paul warns that anyone teaching a different gospel from the one he is preaching is cursed and faces eternal condemnation? It's concerning how they deceive others by exploiting them, using the very word of God. Instead of pointing them to the Savior, they promote Jesus-plus theology, aiming to fully convince those who have already put their faith in Christ for salvation to embrace a different gospel. They plant seeds of doubt, directing individuals toward baptismal salvation and instilling confidence in it, rather than standing firm in God's saving grace-a promise He made to Abraham and to anyone who believes and puts their trust in Christ Jesus as the Holy Spirit works, revealing the Savior to them as they heard the good news, Sadly as Paul says, they severe Christ making Him so insufficient. How long will they delude themselves with the supposed restoration taught by their false teachers? Until when will they cover themselves with lies instead of coming to the very truth of the gospel of salvation, for which the Savior died to set people free? How many rebukes from their leaders and exposures from members enlightened by God of this false teaching do they need to truly change, as they promised? Until when will they grasp the very thing that Jesus wants for every believer: to be shaped by the Holy Spirit, grow in grace, and depend on Christ Jesus alone for salvation-not to be led captive by misguided analogies from their appointed disciplers, who are self-sufficient just to guard their false gospel? I have nothing but prayer for these people.
Let us not forget Jesus’s words in Mark 16 “ He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.” Or the clear application of this faith in Acts 2, with the 3,000 or Acts 8 with the Ethiopian.
I admire you for standing for the Truth but take note of the "whoever does not believe" is the one who is condemned. It does'nt say there the one who is not baptized is condemned. Water baptism is only a step of our obedience to Christ.
Jesus is powerful enough to save anyone who admit their need for a savior and put their faith in Him for forgivness and salvation. Baptismal salvation that was thought by ICOC has departed the very truth of God's saving grace. We are justified by faith alone, saved by grace alone and in Christ alone, so that all the glory will be to God and no one can boast. Remember what "Martin Luther" says: God has surely promised His grace to the humbled, that is, to those who mourn over and despair of themselves. But a man cannot be thoroughly humbled till he realizes that his salvation is utterly beyond his own powers, counsels, efforts, will and works, and depends, absolutely on the will, counsel, pleasure and works of Another - God alone. As long as he is persuaded that he can make even the smallest contribution to his salvation, he remains self-confident and does not utterly despair of himself, and so is not humbled before God."
Fortunately, your other sermons on the CAICC and other ICC various churches youtube pages are still up. I imagine they reacted out of fear in the name of "protecting the flock" from teachings that may run contrary to theirs. If so, that'd be too bad. I wonder if Paul or Barnabas were in the ICC and they had their sharp dispute there, if Kip & Co. would disfellowship and mark one or the other. 🤔
Hey brother, im still apart of “the church”. And I fellowship with anyone who belongs to christ :). Group bible studies, personal bible studies, fellowship, prayer etc. like Hebrews 10:24 I don’t give up meeting with “all” the believers (aka I don’t stiff arm anyone who belongs to Christ for fellowship).
Thanks for this video. one thing i came to understand was that all churches have issues. Paul wrote all these books ( thessolonians, phillipians, ephesians etc) to correct, rebuke, teach, and train the church because there were problems. Some churches have salvation issue problems, while some have more minor disputes. I believe this is a minor dispute, that is often a result of a more major problem. I have seen the "increase your giving" and things like that out of gratitude and such but the bible is whole circle. IF disciples are following the Luke 21:4 and give not just calculated, or whats a little hardt or looks good but from the heart, it probably would not look like this. but the issue is we are all human and fall short. if leadership doesn't call increase to giving or no one watching contro, I doubt people will increase there giving or give at all. because just like the scripture says that you used 2 cornith 9-6 " God loves a cheerful giver." People would rather cheerfully "save" their money. Money has value in this world, and jesus preaches onit a lot because it is something that is needed. disipcles are the citizens of the kingdom. A kingdom doesn't stand "magically" it stands on the people. Not only that but if we follow the bible, and apply it to our lives then life will also go well not just on faith but taking those steps, waking early, being dillegent in school, ambition ( not selfish) , drive, all of proverbs teaches you how to become successful. The issue I think is people need to be command to work on their lives more, truly merging the "life & docrine" scripture, and things will balance out. From my observation, there are a lot of people thinking once saved I don't have to work hard in life, yes you are but now you are a citizen of the kingdom, what each person does/ give/ lives matters. taking it from a econ standpoint those in the upper tax bracket pay for the SSO, medicare for 1,000s at the bottom who can not afford. likewise we have disciples in the 3RD world who have nothing. we are broke here in the US, but we are top tax brack in the kingdom. its a lot to think about but love you my brother!! nobody can force you to do anything that is also something I learned. encourage people to do but don't force, the heart is a very delicate thing. ps I am nobody ,just a follower of christ maybe I seen you glc (my first time) but fight on!
I trust the Bible and the Holy Spirit to work in peoples hearts. Sacrifice comes from love. Did the poor widow in Luke 21 give everything she had because someone asked her to give more, or because someone was keeping track of her contribution? Or did she do it freely out of love and gratitude? I believe people will give to God on their own and do not need “necessities” and “pressure” to give (all definitions of compulsion). This might be a “minor issue” to some. But the problem we are seeing has costed hundreds of thousands to walk away from not only a church but Christ! Jesus says it’s better to have a mill stone tied to your neck than to cause one of the little ones to stumble. Sin must come, but woe to the one through whom it comes! Far be it from me to stay apart of a system that cause many to stumble in their walks with Christ.
I hope you know they didn’t give you salvation brother, JESUS did! And he makes no mistakes in where he placed you, and knowing him helps you to know truth and that place isn’t truth.
@@rohnfamilyadventure I agree, some are genuine, I was there too, but we cannot be afraid to call out false teaching and we most definitely cannot forget where our salvation comes from. Giving “man” the credit is part of the reason there can be such manipulation and corruption at the “top” . To God be the glory for everyone that seeks him truly and finds there way out of the place to worship Him in spirit and in truth. My personal experience was total cut off. But maybe if you were there longer that wouldn’t be feasible.
What about when the old testament talks about the different tribes? Wasn't that an old testament version of Central leadership? Genuine question. I'm not part of the church or anything
James, Coltin posted a whole lesson on that, the day after he posted this one. It's very Biblical and eye opening, and I'm sure it would help answer your question scripturally.
@@ef4854 they seem inseparable. how can anyone follow a "godly structure" set up by man --- when that man is not even "ordained" in the first place? secondly how would anyone even become "ordained" because of the doctrine of cessation? and 3rdly, how could anyone even measure that Kip was treated as Moses was treated? My stance is neutral. I just ask tough questions to see more perspectives..
I'm worried about how the entire process just condemns others and even condems the church. That's what scares me because if you condem someone then you too will be condemned
I was in the icoc for over 20 years. The biggest problem I have with them is that they preach a false gospel. If you are truly born again, you can’t loose your salvation. If you say you can loose your salvation, you are preaching a works based gospel. Which is a false gospel. The blood of Jesus saves us. Not your works or your baptism.
Hello. I don't understand what you mean by this sentence in your description. "With this decision to resign on December 14th, we placed the congregational Shepherds in charge of the church." Don't you feel the Shepherds, Elder should have already been in charge? Take care.
Great point. To shed light on this situation; leaders came into town two days after that midweek. They told the congregation that I “abandoned the sheep and left no one in charge”. They do not see Shepherds as leaders of the congregation but more like a “yes man” to their evangelists. Grateful to have learned more on this topic in my lesson “Evangelist, Shepherds, and Teachers, Oh my!” And I’m still learning.
Hey, I was watching this video and around 20:45 you talk about the church being started by people who believed each other was saved. I'm not exactly sure that's true. At the very beginning the initial members were called to be (re)baptized. It's been something like 28 years, but I remember evangelist Terry Folker reading the statement the ICOC made about the beginnings of the church and the initial meeting in the living room and naming everyone who was there and how everyone baptized each other (and Terry inserted his name there because it had been left out).
I appreciate you putting these videos out there to help people! The one thing I have a response to is at: 22:39 - "the most important thing is for you to get to heaven." I believe if you don't enjoy God here and now, how and why would you enjoy him in heaven? From the beginning of God's creation till now, I believe God created us for him (Rev4:11; Col1:16). We were made in his likeness (Gen1:27) and what he created he deemed "very good" (Gen1:31). And how amazing is our God to condescend to call his people his friends (Jn15:14-15). All this culminated with the fact that God's desire is for all creation to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth (1Ti2:4). God is true and anything he says is true. But to know this, one would first have to consider God over themselves, take an interest in God, and eventually care about him. To be a part of a church group "doing things" without really knowing who God is and all he's done and having a proper heart response to that... can someone really "get to heaven" (Mat 7:21-23) - how can one do Gods will without even being interested in Him? I don't know. But I personally lean into helping people know God and those interested will respond in trusting in God and those not, will not. Please don't think I'm trying to discredit anything you're saying. I just wanted to share a thought. I genuinely appreciate your sharing these videos and thank you for sharing your journey with us all!
Hello, just listen to your video right now. And you made a really great point about. Say hold 20 pounds extra giving. I want to make a comment in a minute but I haven't example where they said something of a similar vein and it absolutely shot me but also a pulled me that they would even suggest such a thing.
Roman's 6 enslaved to righeousness Paul was a central leader, put there by Jesus, after his resurrection. Saul actually heard from Jesus Acts 9, Gal 1 Jesus trained Paul. Also Malachi people were robbing God, not giving what should be given to God. People can feel under complusion,, like
is it really coming from the leader? 2 Cor. 8 the people gave beyond their ability, more than the leaders expectation. More then what leaders ask for. We see leaders having an expectation, referring to giving goal for giving. From Acts 2 on there were needs, and giving people gave, so there was no needy people amongst the disciples. Giving individually or giving as a church was to meet needs. Paul's example he worked for the Cor. Church not receiving anything from them. So there were people who would not give to the work of God. This did not stop a spiritual man, so receiving from other churches financial help, and physically working, to keep the work going to meet his companions needs, and his owe needs. He was a hard worker. This is what it takes to build God's kingdom. You need to honestly look at your Marking, Paul did not leave the Cor. Church because of their sin, but stayed with them, to work out the things that need to be worked out. Is their a scripture not correctly obeyed, then stay and build up the disciple, as Paul would do, and which would do. In of ourselves we are not perfect, but we are made perfect through the blood of Jesus. Don't pick a necessary fault, and run with it, do the righteous thing towards the fault, or disobedience of God's word. Many leaders in God's word had faults, it's mentioned in the Bible, and there is only one kingdom, and based on what you have been given, God has given you Salvation from Jesus, thru God's movement. Why mess that up if it is only about others not obeying the scriptures, on proper giving. Well the Cor. Church wasn't properly giving. Each person has a Bible, they can read and be taught by the Holy Spirit, and work on how to give, and know God has leaders who will have expectations. Also if a disciple doesn't have an ability to give, they can talk to the leaders about it. Based on that conversation things can be resolved, as disciples!😊
That church is a cult, thank the lord you left. That church nearly ruined my life. Absolutely nowhere does it say in the Bible that only sold out disciples go to heaven.
