Even with the character assassination of Stannis by the showrunners, they still couldn’t help but make him go out like an absolute boss. Facing down impossible odds like a goddamn man.
@@darkwolf4434 It was out of character to go beg money for the Iron Bank and bring his family to the battlefield. Also, in the books he learns he needs allies and manage to go from 1,500 soldiers to 6,000, most of them Northman wanting vengeance for the Red Wedding, but in the show they simply forget about it
Literally ruined all the plot line. His death left a thin way to choose the way the plot will surprise people. Its obvious Bolton wasnt a main character, but quite an interesting one. But it was obvious he will fall in the end. They still could have the great battle of the basterds only with Stanis along side with Jon. But yet they threw it to the trash while the book isnt going to do so.
I see it as how fans would write the show. This show was meant to keep you guessing on who would win or die. Not to appease people who love characters to the end.
Even though Stannis lost the battle and his life, he did have a small, far-reaching victory over the Boltons when Sansa escaped while Ramsay was fighting and as a result, reunited with Jon, united the North against them, and took back Winterfell.
That makes me think back to when Stannis told Davos "We do not choice our destiny, but we must all do our duty, no? Big or small". In the end, Stannis made his contribution, even if it was not as grand as he had hoped. Aside from helping Sansa to escape, he also provided ships for Jon to rescue thousands of wildlings at Hardhome. And of course he brought Jon and Melisandre together so that she could revive Jon after he died.
Kinda sad to see a great character from the books be reduced to such a pitifull role in the show, though the acting was excelent, the writing was horrible. D&D ruined him on purpose, because they couldn't understand someone as dutifull as Stannis.
The contrast between the two armies at the beginning is real telling. Stannis' army is cold, hungry, tired, and demoralized while the Bolton's army is rested, energetic, has hot food and spirits are high.
Yeah, reminds me of my own country's history which is Sweden. Our king Charles XII had won the majority of battles while being outnumbered. Then the harshest winter within the ice age at that time hit. Then the russians used scorched earth tactics. So Charles decided to lay siege to the city of Poltava in todays Ukraine where unbeknown to him was where Peter the great had gathered the majority of his force where the deciding battle of the war happened. Sweden lost.
Not much different than the US Revolutionary War and specifically the Battle of Trenton. The US troops had just faced multiple defeats and embarrassments, were cold and they needed a victory. They won that one.
I love the face he makes when he draws his sword and marches forward. It’s like he didn’t even see the army as a defeat, but more like an inconvenience. And he still just walked on. What an absolute legend!
Yea I don’t think you’re that good at reading facial queues. He accepted his fate but he was going to go down fighting anyways. Plus he was severely outnumbered and outflanked with cavalry, if youve ever played a strategy game you know your infantry is done for
@@jamesl3877 I understood that he was completely outnumbered. I just appreciated his kind of "oh well, fuck it" demeanor about it. My point still stands: Stannis is a legend (although very flawed)
Much is said about how much of a legend Stannins is, who burned his daughter to be a King. But little is said of the men who accompanied him, many abandoned their homes and faithfully followed their Lord, saw him do barbarities, and still they followed him, even outnumbered, on the ice, they continued to follow him. Stannins would gain the North if he won, maybe he would be King in the long run, these soldiers would gain very little, maybe nothing but the same position they originally held. Honorable men.
@@greggo1131No cause the writing is disgustingly bad. I defeated your uncle Victarion and his Iron Fleet off Fair Isle, the first time your father crowned himself. I held Storm's End against the power of the Reach for a year, and took Dragonstone from the Targaryens. I smashed Mance Rayder at the Wall, though he had twenty times my numbers. Tell me, turncloak, what battles has the Bastard of Bolton ever won that I should fear him?" Stannis could never be done by Ramsay .
I hate this scene. It's amazing how he forms up his men so quickly but they forced Stannis to be in a bad situation for no reason. They made him beg for money too which is not like his character at all >:(
@@ericzamora3449 During the Northern campaign which as opposite to the show sees Stannis army grow in numbers from the original 1500 southern knights he saved wall with, to 6000 men as northern houses join him. Before he fights Boltons, Iron Bank comes to him and offers him 20,000 mercenaries as long as he makes the Lannisters pay. Meanwhile in the show Stannis begs for mere 5000 mercenaries and then gets abandoned. Oh he also burns his daughter which he left at the wall in the books to keep her safe. Thanks D&D
That legend killed his brother to get his armies, burned alive a bunch of people, led all of his man to a massacre, burned his daughter to death, and drove his wife to suicide. This man didn’t go down as a legend, he went down as a fool who sacrificed everything for witch pussy.
This last facial expression is from a man who sacrified and lost everything for nothing, and now accepting his fate, the fate he created himself, and he just understood it at the last minute. I always pictured that his last memories is the face of his daughter, when he "smile".
You gotta respect the men that followed stannis for so long, from the siege of storms end during roberts rebellion to crushing the Greyjoy fleet during Balons rebellion, to the battle of the blackwater, to defeating a massive wildling army trying to invade the seven kingdoms, you can see some cut and run during this scene but the core surrounding stannis that were loyal to the end must have been some of the best men in Westeros despite having no cavalry I feel like they gave the boltons a licking here, and may have paved the way for Jon to beat them later.
“I defeated your uncle Victarion and his Iron Fleet off Fair Isle, the first time your father crowned himself. I held Storm's End against the power of the Reach for a year, and took Dragonstone from the Targaryens. I smashed Mance Rayder at the Wall, though he had twenty times my numbers. Tell me, turncloak, what battles has the Bastard of Bolton ever won that I should fear him?" Clearly poor writing here.
Stannis was the actual one true king. Like, facts-wise. By right, the Iron Throne was his. It was his all along. What a sad ending for a sad character.
Absolutely he also didn't have a desire to sit on it. He did it because it was his duty and he did whatever he could to remove the injustice of the lannisters stealing the throne.
He was the second son. The right is only his if the king makes him his heir since he had a son . . . And Geoffrey had a younger brother. So, sadly for stanis, he never had a claim.
@@ant3352 The problem is that Joffrey wasn't actually Robert's son. That's why Ned wrote rightful heir instead of Joffrey when Robert said his son would be his heir.
@@ant3352actually Joffery* and Tommen had no claim to the throne, by the ACTUAL right of the land he was the one with the true claim at this point(we didn't know Jon was a targ yet)
@@llllk-fz6xw yeah but winter was never ever a factor in the show after this. Stannis and his men got fucked by a blizzard, but no other plotline got affected by anything similar
Stannis could have also had his army bolstered by some freefolk, mountain clansmen, the Flint’s, Umber’s, Glover’s, Manderly’s, Dustin’s, and other northern houses. Too bad the writers removed all that…. that which was in the book they claimed to be adapting :/
Stannis didn't tremble before a large army, he accepted death and drew his sword. His men also got inspired and followed him. He leads from the front no matter the cause.
When the scots fought against England. A very similar event happened. When the large number of English Calvary charged, the scots would prop up spikes in a upward angle to impale the horses. Causing an English regroup, however they still win I think. Stannis never really got to show off his true military leadership skills in the show.
There's one major problem with this battle most of this 'cavalry' would be mounted infantry, near useless in battle on horse, especially against veteran spear men, no matter how tired or hungry, who should already know through scouts and the fact that you can see Winterfell from 2km away that there is like 7 thousand horsemen forming, which would take like an hour or two.
That's a really good point actually. I hadn't thought of that there's practically no heavy cavalry north of the neck by this point. Unfortunately the showrunners don't understand or care how these things work, as evidenced by their portrayals of the Dothraki.
you would be amazed to find out how many battles were lost in history because there were no scouts. It was always the same fault: Generals/Kings who underestimated their enemy. Look after Hannibal, he marched threw the roman empire using ambushes and traps like a genius. Another good example is the byzantine empire, their kings often lost cause they did not use enough scouts.
@@KjichaDaNijerd “I defeated your uncle Victarion and his Iron Fleet off Fair Isle, the first time your father crowned himself. I held Storm's End against the power of the Reach for a year, and took Dragonstone from the Targaryens. I smashed Mance Rayder at the Wall, though he had twenty times my numbers. Tell me, turncloak, what battles has the Bastard of Bolton ever won that I should fear him?" Somehow I don’t think our one true king is one to forget about scouts.
Despite all his flaws, failures and mistakes, Stannis Baratheon was not a coward. He knew this was the end of his story and faced his demise it without fear. That i can respect in a character like this.
Going off.the numbers from the show... The Bolton's sent 8000 men to mot calen, and after this battle they only have 5000 at winter fell...and the majority are infantry.for the battle of the bastards...implying that stannis the Mannis, whilst out numberd and surrounded...took out about 3000 Bolton's.....damn.
We all love the Mannis, but i have to give props to his men. Abandoned their lands and holdings in the south after a crushing defeat to fight wildlings, then ironborn, then cunty northerners and potentially (later on) reanimated corpses once the REAL war began- all on the word of a fire-demon worshiping witch and ironclad loyalty to the last Baratheon. Fucking legendary, these stormlanders.
Stannis made some really bad decisions, and he paid for them. This scene was a great last stand for him though. He knew it would end in his defeat, but he still drew his sword and matched as the first one into battle. What a badass
@@vonmehlau9284 It wasn't just the Boltons, it was the Karstarks and Umbers and they greatly outnumbered Stannis who had just marched his men at winter and having half of his already outnumbered force leaving.
My guess is that Stannis might win at Winterfell and that Shireen is burned to resurrect Jon Snow (we don't know by who or the circumstances, just that "It happened"). The showrunners didn't want Stannis to take Winterfell since then he'd be the only character in the show to ever do anything (defeat Renly, attempt to take King's Landing, defeat Mance, defeat Bolton, etc.). They also didn't want Jon's resurrection to be tainted by a child sacrifice.
Aegon gonna beat Dany to the punch overthrowing cersi and taking the iron throne and she'll be looked at as a foreign invader when she finally hits westeros.
Stannis was a badass boss and he has one of the strongest armies on GOT. it is just they lost on the battle with the lannister that is why he outnumber with his army. The dedication of this man is been exceeded to the point that he can offered up his only child's life in exchange for a chance at power.
I think that Brienne is just a dumb characater believing in nobeltiy and loyalty and doesn't want to break her oath, if she gave Stannis a chance he have done alot in the last seasons, he doesn't have anhything to lose anymore since that the red witch burned his daughter alive in front of him as a sacrifice,and then his wife strangled herself to death after seing her daughter dies in front her without doing nothing after she was traiting her very badly; he would have made many good choices if he had joined the council of Deanerys after his lost against the Boltons and spare her so much effort and stopping her from listenning to those dumb ideas that Tyrion gave so his family would survive .Stannis should have survived in the show and he should traited like in the books and i think he should have not listenned to that witch in the first place.
Support from the northern houses to Stannis relies on Davos being able to find Rickon, though. The north will always follow a Stark. Btw, I wonder what GRRM will do with Jon in WoW (I am almost positive he will be resurrected). Possibly he will come across Lady Stoneheart?
The only solace i get here is that Stannis and his force fucked up atleast half of Ramsey's force as we can see the force available for Ramsey at battle of the basterds was at least half of what it is here in this battle
if there is one thing that i love about stannis. is that he is more honorable then his brothers...robert is a dick, renly is a coward, but stannis never runs from a fight
Stannis and his army is alive, which includes: 3,500 northmen (Glovers, Mormonts and mountain clans 1,400 southron knights and men-at-arms 400 Umber green boys in the vanguard Total: about 5,300 men 456 Karstark men, disloyal, it is unknown whether or not they will fight for Stannis after Arnolf Karstark's treachery is discovered Roose Bolton had send : 2000 Frey men, including 500 knights 300 Manderly men, apparently 100/200 knights/men-at-arms Total: about 2300 men. Stannis army is sitting beside a frozen lake with a sort of watch tower. He is waiting and eager to lure Roose Boltons Vanguard to charge at his army who are mostly Footmen. During the charge the Manderly's will backstab the frey's and aid Stannis. It will be Stannis First Victory to WInterfell
How did Stannis manage to get to the woods while his been surrounded by all sides and was leading the vanguard? I mean his army would've been slaughtred in a few minutes. No chance for survival
I think it’s mentioned by Roose Bolton that Ramsey’s decision to call for a charge was foolish as they could have not wasted men and stayed in the castle to defend against a siege, meaning Stannis like in Blackwater made a significant impact on Ramsey’s forces also showing the lack of long term planning Ramsey has as he just throws the full blunt of his men without thinking of better strategies
"We all know what my brother would do. Robert would galop up to the gates of Winterfell alone, break them with his warhammer, and ride through the rubble to slay Roose Bolton with his left hand and the bastard with his right. I am not Robert. But we will march, and we will free Winterfell... or die in the atempt"- Stannis Baratheon might still win this battle in the books.
2 things about this that really got to me: 1. Quite a few of those horsemen were the sellsword deserters who took the horses from Stannis 2. Maybe half of his army started fleeing (morale failure) as it was going to be a total rout Bad way to go...
They have spears and long weapons like polearms and glaives and the like yet they ditched those to go to swords and short arms. Lower your Spears and long arms against cavalry and its an easy victory
That's a misconception popularized by Braveheart. Infantry are disadvantaged against cavalry no matter the weapon. Reasonably well trained horses are smart enough to dodge polearms on their own initiative, and all it takes is a missed thrust for a spearman to be wide open.
@@Conan_the_Based if multiple ranks of infantry with spears deploy against cavalry there's no possibility all of them will miss furthermore deploy archers behind the infantry to fire into the oncoming cavalry. Infantry always stand an advantaged chance if they remain in formation. Cavalry will be most effective against wavering infantry and light infantry not a solid block of trained disciplined infantry who will not break and run anytime soon
@@ferroangelusprimarchoftheII Yes and no. Even a perfect formation can be harried incessantly and broken. With Stannis' half-frozen army, forming a square wouldn't have bought them much more time against the ridiculous CGI horde that could assemble into textbook formation without any of his scouts even noticing. This whole confrontation was just bad writing all around.
@@Conan_the_Based Yeah that's true this scene is just terrible writing and yes I agree with you there, light cavalry and mounted archers were most adept at wearing down formations. I'll cite the Battle of Carrhae as my example here. In this scene however, the Bolton army is primarily made of heavy/shock cavalry and therefore not that adept at wearing down formations and instead breaking them with several charges and not what is shown in this show
@@ferroangelusprimarchoftheII Heavy cavalry is precisely why a spear wall wouldn't work here. Short spears alone can't form a dense wall simply because the men themselves standing shoulder-to-shoulder prevent it. Ancient warfare solid formations were achieved with heavy interlocking shields while the spears (and swords) were used for counterattack. Later warfare used longer pikes so multiple rows of men could feed the same spear wall. In this case, Stannis' men had neither large shields nor long pikes. They 'll simply be crushed under hoof, spears and square formation or no. Anyway, I came to split hairs and that's my hair-splitting quota for the day :)
in retrospect, the contrived and forced attempt at irony with sansa lighting the candle just as brienne of tarth leaves is BAD WRITING AND THEN THE REST OF THE SEASONS GOT WORSE AND WORSE DAMN YOU D&D DAMN YOU TO HECK
It's good writing in a way because it fits her character. Brienne of Tarth is supposed to be this larger than life figure, a woman knight challenging all traditions, but everything she does serves her own vainglory while she botches all of her knightly duties. She fails to protect Renly, Catelyn Stark, and Arya. Now she's shirking her pledge to Sansa as she pursues her personal vendetta against Stannis, 'in Renly's name' of course.
Kind of odd to think of it in retrospect, but Sansa knew Jon had no cavalry in the upcoming battle of bastards and knew she had to find a way to persuade the knights of the vale to come to the aid after watching the slaughter of Stannis by Bolton cavarly alone.
I love and hate Stannis, hate him for killing his brother, love him for loving his daughter, love him for helping John Snow and the Nightwatch, love him for attacking Kings landing, hat him for burning innocent people and his daughter
Love how brienne decides to go after stannis. For one, sansa refused her help. Two, catelyn promised not to hold her back from stannis. And of course she swore to avenge her king.
That TV Show totally ruined his character. Ramsey Bolton was a true bastard King of the north, he almost defeated John Snow too later in full battle. I love the way evil became alive with the actor who played him.
Ngl when I first watched this episode I was so happy to see him get slept. But thinking about it his story is very sad. Bro didn't get any recognition for holding Storm's End, succumbs to the Red Women's influence when she was wrong about him and then kills his daughter. Just to lose to the fucking Boltons.
the stormcrows (mercenary army) took all of the horses after stannis burnt his daughter. then half the men left. he basically lost 3500 men over a single night. he marched on winterfell with around 1200-1500 vs 5000.... most mounted, well fed. while his men were starving,tired and sick. stannis in the books was alot smarter/ formidable that show stannis.
this seems like something GRRM might do in the books. (the outcome is not revealed only that stannis is on the brink of defeat) everyone just assumes Stannis goose is cooked, but i have feeling this is going to be a moment when Stannis gets to show off his military prowess and overcome extreme odds...
