/ fandommusings Even if I wasn't wholly uninterested in Kylo Ren as a character, his entire "arc" fails to do any of the actual things I need to see in a redemption arc to buy it. CC available.
I swear, it's as if Abrams and Johnson watched ATLA and then said to themselves: "People like Zuko? Ok, we'll make our own Zuko! With Blackjack and hookers! What do we need? A scar, a pale face, and sudden outbursts of rage? Sold!" It's utter incompetence, as far as I can tell.
Darth Vader also had reason to turn to dark side to save his one true love! Where as Kylo was a privileged white boy who wants to be most powerfuly killer in galaxy like jeeez and than we reward him wtf
Every dark sider before him was much more menacing than Kylo Ren. I think the problem is that Kylo Ren is more so character fanfic material than he is an antagonist like the others. Your not suppose to find Darth Maul or Vader or even Dooku as attractive and you can fix them by kissing them, because Vader, Maul, and Dooku were not written that way, they were written to be old decrepit antagonist that were a threat to the heros, and have beaten said heros before.
i genuinely get sad over the sequel trilogy sometimes man. There was so much potential to make it great and I remember being so excited when TFA came out, but it all when straight down the toilet. Instead I got to see the empty shells of characters I had loved before and shallow and uninteresting new characters with minimal development :(
this reminds me of what pop culture detective talked about in the end of his latest video--writers will often have "reformed" villains sacrifice themselves at the very end to forego an actual redemption arc while rebranding the villain a "hero".
@@blissclair9743 Indeed. And the whole "he did it because he loved Lily" thing made Snape look even worse. Now he's some creepy stalker, that couldn't get over someone , who had gotten over him long ago.
I actually did really like Kylo Ren in TLJ, but I didn’t want him redeemed. I love redemption arcs but it didn’t feel like it would fit with him. His character arc seemed to be about being given opportunities to repent and change his ways only for him to constantly shun them. 9 should’ve had Kylo Ren as the main villain. Or if they wanted Palpatine back, they should’ve had Rey and Ren work together in an “enemy of my enemy” way against Palpatine because they both have their own separate reasons to oppose him.
That's one reason the redemption failed. TLJ made a point to kill Snoke (the one person who was supposedly forcing Ben into that path), giving Kylo the perfect oportunity to return to the light, but instead he rejected it and double down. I think that was the point of no return and why no redemption would have felt earned. Kylo went from being a sorta victim to becoming the big bad by CHOICE. I guess that's why they brought Palpy back, because they didn't know how to redeem Kylo without having an Emperor figure to shift the blame towards and make the Big Bad, but why couldn't Kylo be the big bad?
After the very clear arcs of The Last Jedi, this was so disappointing. The problem with Kylo is that they didn't establish his motivation. He's just a sad boi mad at his family. If he has no motivation, he can't have a redemption.
Very much agreed. Like, as janky as the prequels are, at least Anakin's motivations are made pretty clear. I'm STILL not sure why Kylo went to the darkside at all.
The problem with Kylo is that he should have never been promoted to being Rey's co-star. He worked best as the villain in his Vader type role. In no way did Vader get more screen time + development than Han/Luke/Leia
@@markuscriticus8278, but what, specifically, was his reason for going dark? I understand why he turned away from Luke and his family, but why did that send him to the Sith, an organization he had presumably had no intereraction with previously? He doesn't care about the First Order's cause one bit. He's just there because they're the binary opposite of the Jedi and the rebellion.
@@markuscriticus8278 that's why he hates Luke. Why does he murder his own father, and entire villages, and become supreme leader of a fascist organization that destroyed 5 planets?
You know what should have happened at some point in this Trilogy...Finn saving a bunch of kids who were kidnapped by the First Order. Why did they make an interesting character and then do nothing with him? Why did they do this to my boi. Also, why didn't they let him make out with Poe. It was the kiss we all wanted.
Hardly. For a LOT of us, Finn and Poe were the Sony Crockett+ Ricardo Tubbs of Star Wars. That is, what they had was a Bromance. Now Finn and Rey had the makings to be one hell of a couple. The flirting between those two in TFA, the director practically saying that Rey fell for Finn, the way she was willing to die with him, I'd give JJ the credit and say he made one hell of a romance. But for some reason, people would rather ignore all of that, and focus on the 5 minutes he spent with Poe.
@@dustinmaxwell259 I actually like the idea of Fin and Rey getting together.....but Rey was....number one thing they really should've done was make her the illegitimate daughter of Luke Skywalker then have someone train her and I mean like how Luke himself was trained....why the Heck didn't they just have Luke stay alive and train her? He or Hans could've also trained Fin and Rey and let them as a new generation fight And only step in what things got way too bad. And to me Fin should've been the main character he had good qualities and a good set up to BE the main character....it's disappointing that we could've got something better then what it turned into.
I absolutely agree with you. And do you want to know what’s the worst part? That wasn’t even Han’s ghost. That’s just Kylo’s mind. That’s right, it’s not his father’s ghost forgiving him, he is forgiving HIMSELF for all the shit he has done.
Hey you know who they could have used that would have made sense? ANAKIN FREAKING SKYWALKER! How the hell do you make Kylo's whole motivation revolve around Vader but not have Anakin appear anywhere in the plot. Why not have Anakin appear as a force ghost and tell his nephew that he has a choice between the dark and light.
I actually don't mind his vision being completely internal. A lot of his character is spent trying to prove himself to other people, telling himself that he's enough is a pretty good arc. Unfortunately it was done in a pretty mediocre movie that didn't care about the characters.
What's up with redemption arcs redeeming irredeemable villains and act like that's a normal thing? Make them a) less... genocidal if you want to play that card. Or b) just don't redeem them. Or c) construct your universe in a way that redemption doesn't matter in the first place (gritty and morally grey, usually).
Yeah, maybe I am misremembering, but Kylo was...part of the first order? Pretty high in the ranks? Like, second....in command until he became supreme leader? And absolutely helped in their reign of terror. And the movie really made it seem like he did kill the younglings. If it was meant to be an accident, the film did a poor job of explaining that.
Oh, I forgot something: It would also work if we assume that Ben Solo and Kylo Ren are actually different entities, basically two seperate characters in the same body. OT and PT were kind of going for this with Anakin. Unfortunately that wouldn't work for Kylo either as we never actually saw Ben Solo and therefore never experienced the massive shift in personality.
It was a bad redemption arc and a bad movie in general, they absolutely undid everything from the last movie just to fellate butthurt fanboys and that is a bad motivation. I have to say I 100% agree with your last suggestion absolutely yes let's do that.
Kylo killed a bunch of people and tortured/emotionally manipulated Rey, but it's cool because he felt bad when his mom died, so all is forgiven 🙄 #sarcasm
To be fair, she was acting as if she hated Kylo for the first half of TROS. Then, it's like she did a complete 180 in the 2nd half.It make me believe what Doomcock said about those Disney execs changing JJ's film, in order to pander to Reylos. He said that Kylo fell over the side and was never seen again, in the original version.
All redemption arcs in general involve the villain being forgiven because it was the actions of abuse that caused them to be what they are. At least Zuko knew that he deserved to be ashamed (despite the reason he search for the Avatar was because of Ozai) and took responsibility for his actions.
God the force awakens and the rise of Skywalker just influence each other to be the worst thing in the star wars franchise. I completely forgot that Kylo literally blew up like 5 planets which is billions of people just dead and no one seems to give a shit.
Star wars has had good redemption arcs look at Ventress she was taken away from her family to serve someone else to save her family. Then was taken by the Jedi after the discovered her immense power. After her masyer was killed she won't to dooko who then abandoned her when she needed help. She tried to asasinate him and failed. She saw her sisters get massacered and surivived. In the end she becomes a bounty Hunter helping those who were her enemies in the past ie: Ahsoka. Ventress learen to live her life for herself and for no one else That is a good redemption arc. One that is well done and they pays attention the every detail, even the mini ones.
He killed his dad & his direct actions caused the deaths of (by Force exhaustion) Luke & Leia. Now I'm supposed to be happy with his last minute redemption? I'd rather kiss a Jawa.
Fun fact: Aaron Ehasz intended for Azula to have a redemption arc, one that's longer and far more complicated then Zuko's, she had not bottomed in season 3, she had further to go but the moment she truly does reach the bottom, she finds Zuko, despite it all, her brother Zuko, puts everything he learns from Iroh to the test, passes them down to Azula, sticking by her and believing in her. He says that's how she had gotten out and changed with the faith and love of some one he had hurt just like how he had changed by the faith and love of some one HE had hurt. Why I think this can work is because Azula and Zuko are actually VERY similar. Yes they are siblings and are descendants of Avatar Roku and Fire lord Sozin but there's a lot more to it then that. Both had one parent on there side and began to learn from them as a result but where distant by the other and they both questioned on if that distant parent even cares about them (Zuko finally knows the answer but Azula still remains wondering) By "The Search", Zuko realizes that the way he treats his father and sister makes him no different from them and works to better himself in this area, particularly with Azula. In addition; both him and his sister love to be the deadpan snarker albeit slightly differently (he's got a dry wit while she is much more snarkier.) both of them are intelligent, agile, and strategic; capable of fighting long periods and are amazingly quick thinkers...in addition to having very poor social skills and both having an inferiority superiority complex a mile long. Azula is a young girl who wanted to be loved by her mother and trust in her friends and family and is heavily mentally dependent on Ozai. Zuko was emotionally dependent on Ursa and Iroh and desired for Ozai to care about him. Azula was reluctant in giving Zuko a chance to help her but he would find that understandable for Zuko himself spat at Iroh's face multiple times, rejected team Avatar's assistance more then once, played a part in the fall in ba sing se and the avatar and keep in mind he chose to follow Azula in the latter. no one coerced him. In ba sing se, she literally defied Ozai's orders to capture him and gave him a chance to join her, she told him to be careful when speaking to Iroh even though SHE KNOWS it's considered treason, she also expressed concern about his rage on himself. She keeps hallucinating about Ursa repeatedly telling her she loves her and that's what caused her to deteriorate, heavily implying that's what she wanted to hear. The context of the hallucinations combined with how badly she takes betrayal such as Mai and Ty Lee's, and when she thought Zuko was angry with her at the beach could heavily imply that despite her tough exterior, Azula may be harboring some massive guilt and remorse about how she acted in the past but tries to prove desperately that her atrocities are justified just because Ozai approves them. She lately has turned to fancy herself as a sort of adviser to Zuko; by which she means to turn Zuko into a ruler that will rule with Fear. Zuko easily brushes off her attempts. While she is still working towards negative ends, we can however see that her "rule through fear" mentality is more of years of damage and teaching through her father and was under the belief that fear was the only to gain companionship, trust and approval but doesn't know fear does the exact opposite and for what it's worth, Azula has regained some degree of sanity and has even begun to care for her half-sister. She's not going to be what she was when we first saw her and she's certainly not all there in the head yet, but for now she's improving herself. Azula claims that Ursa thought she was a monster but literally everyone, even her own delusions tell her she's wrong and Ursa does love Azula, which made me question: Where does the whole "monster" thing come from? and that led to the conclusion that it was Ozai who came up with a lie about Ursa hating her (along with some other nonsense like trust being for fools and fears is the reliable way) and Azula not knowing it's all a lie, she believes him. What I'd give to see Zuko show Azula the truth about Ozai's lies, both easy way and hard way (and Ozai, chains her up holds her captive and leaves her to die in the jail cell that used to hold him). This reveal and Ozai's betrayal would utterly destroy her. the truth would turn her world upside down, tear asunder to her illusions, send the sanctity of her own ignorance crashing down around her and all of her greatest and worst fears would have come to life. She may even call to Zuk for help for he's the one who believed in her and told her the truth despite it all but began to lose hope of anyone coming for her. But then Zuko manages to rescue her, puts everything he learned from Iroh to the test and reminds her of the promise he made to Azula before that he'd never abandon her. Traumatized by Ozai's betrayal and taking Zuko's promise to heart, she lets out all her bottled up emotions, desperately clings on to him and repeatedly apologizes for all the wrong she's done. Zuko empathetically sooths her as much as he needs too and gently brings her back home.
JUST discovered this video and I'm so glad I ended up here. Your visuals are cracking me up, and your commentary is spot-on! Also, Finn is better than Kyle Ron. In like, every conceivable way. I'd be interested in knowing why he was shoved aside, but I have this feeling that the answer is racism. One last thing: Kylo Ren doesn't just do bad things! That is an unfair assessment! He also does things badly. XD
I am so glad too! Yes like do you really think they would let the black guy end up with the white girl? It's super sad but it's the truth they would rather have a white mass murder get the girl and attention while the black guy is used for comedy relief
You give me hope. I hate everyone on twitter thinks that Ben deserved better. He is awful and not compelling. Opinions on Kylo Ren/Ben Solo is my new litmus test
they tried to darth vader, sacerfice for him. The only issue, is that we see darth vader slowly become softer to his son, and to people in general. Then finally, he screams nooooo, and lifts the emprorer up and tosses him, while being electrucuted to death! Then the last thing he does is instead of being selfish, he knowly asks for his life support to be cut just to see his son and tell him that he was right: There was a little bit of good in him, we know he made peace with the jedi he killed; as he is seen smilely proudly as a ghost, along side his former brethern. What a fantastic end to his arc!
your three basic points for character redemption guide is really good from a writing standpoint. i do think that it could have led to a more interesting character development of kyle -i read so much about how these emovies are about redemptions, but like.... no? vaders redemption arc has always been shitty, especially considering the things people dont talk about -like how he ended up torturing his own daughter, how he supposedly wanted evil power to rescue those he loved -but all the while very clearly being more interested in the idea of controlling others, not helping or supporting others, and well, how he was an accomplice to the evil empire and aid to the destruction of fricking Alderaan. where her daughter was raised and lived. i dont think Leia would have ever forgiven Vader if she had been in Luke's place. kyle's a very interesting idea as a character since he reflects those teenagers who are tempted to see "the true reality" and end up believing whatever shit radicalizes them to the far right. an arc that parallels real efforts made by ex alt-right members to get out of that toxic environment would have been timely and deeply empathetic. but no. i think my biggest issue is in part the fact that kyle is in his 30s. his relationship with Rey, whos in like early 20s, always shook me the wrong way but more importantly, kyles actions cannot be blamed on inexperience or lack of understanding of how the world works, like rey can sometimes be. hes a grown-ass adult who doesnt have anything that allows us the viewers to think "oh this is redemption material right here". he is completely allied with the first order, his reason for being evil ws always shaky (did he distrust the jedi before luke tried to kill him? why did he kill all of his classmates and not luke? what the hell are the knights of ren??), and his mopey expressions are empty gestures of meaningless "conflict" if he does nothing to rectify his actions. on the other hand, the "redemption" if you can call it that way, of Finn is also sort of empty, but it does reflect (somewhat) real things that some people go through. children being kidnapped and their identity erased is something close to my country, and the concept of child soldiers is also something that i thought was interesting considering john boyega has acted as a boy turned child soldier in the adaptation of "half of a yellow sun", about the nigerian civil war. if we had had something closer to reality, of how child soldiers escape their environments and manage their traumas and the fear of being recaptured, that would have been amazing. real parallels to real wars. all in all, finn's redemption was always going to be more understandable because he was forced into a life of evil. kyle chose a life of evil because he thought he would look cool dressed up like his racist grandpa.
I would argue that neither Kylo nor Vader achieved meaningful redemption. That they did in fact demonstrate something more meaningful, the ability to change despise the depths of ones investment in a given ideology. Yes the films, especially RotJ try hard to sell it as a redemption with Vader recieving compassion and forgiveness from his son and apparently the blessing of the force to appear as a force ghost. But despite that I dont think redemption is actually the important factor here, I like your parallels with real life issues. It takes strength of will to separate your self from something you have been indoctrinated into. Particularly if you have done more than think and speak that ideology, if you have acted out an evil ideology up to and including taking lives you may well be beyond redemption in any meaningful way but it's possible for you to change despite that. This last movie I think exists in a more nuanced fictional world, where light and dark are not analogous to good and evil as they were in the original trilogy. In that case I think we can discard the judgement value of redemption and simply say he overcame whatever was compelling his actions and changed course likely knowing that no great reward awaited him on the other side. And I think that's more meaningful today, where a great many people seem to be deeply invested in things that are taking us to places we never intended.
I don't mind Vader much because I didn't see his sacrifice as an actual redemption. He didn't do what he did because "Oh what have I done? I gotta save the galaxy", he only cared about saving his son and he did. Also it's hard for me to call Finn's thing a redemption when he never even got to do anything bad. He abandoned the First Order during his first mission, didn't he? There's nothing to atone for.
i was iffy about whether or not this new star wars was going to be worth watching. like really iffy. so thanks for saving me the trouble, i think i learned all i really needed to from this video.
Rian rolled with what J.J.'s story, but J.J. didn't roll with what Rian's story (after encouraging him to do whatever he wanted.) Like seriously: TFA redoes ESB: darth vader type character working for emperor type character via hologram tries to get luke skywalker type character to defect in a lightsaber duel TLJ (having no choice but to be a sequel to that) redoes ROTJ: vader type and luke type are in a throne room with emperor type, vader type kills emperor type to save luke type -BUT- this time vader type survives and accomplishes vaders original goal - to become emperor himself. (fulfilling kylo ren's promise to finish what vader started to his helmet in TFA) TROS (has been given this original setup): nahhhhh lets just do ROTJ for the third time right after the last time with a copy of the original conclusion by pulling actual palpatine out of our assholes, that way we can pander to insane reylos and prequel fans TROS is so unbelievable creatively bankrupt I can't believe it. I pray the ridiculous social media mobbing these past two years doesn't interfere with rian getting his trilogy. rian's a proven storyteller with a better track record than anyone else who's worked on star wars, even GL, or those GoT clowns.
That's not what I read. It's also not what Mike Zeroh and other youtubbers said. According to them, and Daisy, JJ left an outline for Rian to follow. But Rian tossed it, along with most of JJ's ideas+ characters out the window, because Rian wanted to do his own thing. So Rian began the fight by completely trashing what JJ set up in TFA. Why would JJ respect what Rian did? Rian either forgot or did not care that he was doing the 2nd installment of the trilogy. It's as if he tried to wrap it all up with TLJ. Almost as if he was deliberately trying to sabotage episode 9. He killed Snoke, which wouldn't have been bad if not for Rian's other blunders. Rian made Hux look like Curly from the 3 Stooges . He set Kylo up to be some "misunderstood Bad boy/Antihero " He wasted Luke Rey became an official Mary Sue, because Rian didn't think she needed to be trained. And it wasn't enough for Rian to rip off ESB. No he had to rip off ROTJ as well. And he even failed at copy/pasting films. He also managed to film one of the worst choreographed fights in cinematic history. I swear some of those Red guards spent more time fighting shadows than they did with the people right in front of them.
@@Sam-gs2wq I have a sense of humor alright. But it's not satisfied with Rian's 3rd grader type of humor, which is barely above fart jokes. And I'm self aware enough to know that Rian single handedly wrecked the trilogy.
*nervously waves* hiiiii I’m not here to try to make you like Kylo or reylo, but if it makes you feel any better, most of us in that fandom hate his arc in TROS. Like the general consensus is that he should have had...basically Zuko’s arc. Like...a common theory was that Hux would lead a coup and kick him out in like act 1? And he would spend most of the movie with the main cast? And work through the shit that he did to them and their friends and loved ones? And then it just...didn’t happen... Otherwise, yep, 100% agree. Rey should have had a better arc dealing with her darkness, Finn should have led a stormtrooper rebellion, I had been banking on that since TLJ and I’m still furious that they didn’t follow through. Rose should have been in TROS, and it should have been gay.
I wanted Kylo to die conflicted and without redemption, that is much more tragic than making him good out of nowhere, killing him off and acting like we're supposed to feel sad about it. Though I do wish these kinds of comparisons used more than just Zuko's redemption. Not saying that wasn't good and that you didn't make good points, but one thing is comparing movies and another is comparing a show with hours and hours of plot and content. Doesn't seem fair.
Im very in agreement. Not a good redemption arc. I think half the problem is that they didn't really plan anything other than "this movie's for Mark, this one's for Carrie", so like. They don't know what the fuck theyre doing the whole time. The other half is the time, they could not in a couple of movies do what ATLA could. Also they're kind of shitty at writing? The screenplay writer was the same from justice league, so like. Not the Worst movie but some bad pacing. The lack of desire for these mostly white men to focus on anyone else really just .. limited this movie. It makes it uninteresting in a lot of ways. Having said all that, and knowing (for sure!) That Kylo's writing Sucked, I'm not against him getting a redemption arc at all. I think star wars always sorta tried to strive for redemption as an ideal. But frankly, even Vader's isn't... A Zuko™ Idk, I'm a slut for redemption arcs, love a good one, love a bad one, but can admit when one is literally just shit. Fanfic authors could, have, and will, carry the redemption arc+ giving Finn Anything + giving Rose anything + having Rey be her own person better. The only thing that makes me hesitant to go looking is I am not a reylo shipper so... Hard to be in the space where you're cool w having a Kylo Redemption but don't want to have him make out w Rey in this fandom
The huge problem with Kylo Ren is that he wasn't designed to be redeemed. J.J. Abrams himself described Kylo as the anti-Vader. A character who starts out conflicted about the light and dark who decides to fully commit himself to the Dark Side. Rian Johnson then toys around with Kylo possibly being redeemed, but that's a red herring cause what he's really toying with is Rey joining the bad boy. Now non of this was executed well, especially since it's hard to believe Rey, the non-character fan insert she is would ever join Kylo, but Rian Johnson does reaffirm Kylo Ren's commitment to the Dark Side by refusing to join Rey and save the Resistance. It's often been said Rian Johnson had full creative control, but I have my doubts mainly because the third act makes a thematic U-Turn and it's really weird. If you look at the behind the scenes a lot of scenes were originally shot differently. The scene where Luke and Leia talk in the shot they highlight for the behind the scenes documentary it's much more somber and emotional and instead they lighten up the mood of the scene in the actual movie. Darth'd who has a really keen eye and thinks he figured the reason for the famous disappearing knife during the throne room battle. In that scene Rey was supposed to be severely wounded. He even points out in behind the scenes footage of Rey's outfit looking more worn in certain places than in the movie. For some reason Disney changed this. I think Disney made changes to the movie cause I think Rian Johnson's original ending was much darker. I wouldn't be surprised if Rey was originally set to join Kylo at the end. In respect to TROS I think Disney was in panic mode after Solo flopped and Alan Horne was constantly giving J.J. Abrams notes. One rumor suggests he was even perusing reddit for fan sentiments. I think what happened is that Disney heard every fan complaint and tried to satisfy everyone and we'll satisfied no one. The Y-Wings and Rey training are a sign of this and a rather tone def response to the original complaints. It's also possible redeeming Kylo came out of this as well along with a lot of other things like Kylo and Rey kissing to throw a bone to Reylo's.
This analysis couldn’t be more accurate. This was extremely therapeutic to watch because I agree with everything you mentioned. I’ll never understand why people are attracted to Kylo Ren. I honestly think Rogue One is a FAR superior film to the sequel trilogy films, but that’s just my opinion.
Oh the director actively CHOSE to ignore, he was even saying something along the lines of you can just 'give in' to what PC audience wants. 👀 Like....Ok Boomer
I think the only evidence that rey would turn to the dark side is how quick she is to anger/be violent. Her face literally contorts often because she can’t seem to control her emotions; which would be a worse reason than Kylo’s turn to the dark.
Definitely agree with many points including that Finn and Poe deserved more attention BUT....apparently there is a 3-hour cut that JJ Abrams made originally. He and seemingly the actors operated on the assumption that something closer to that was what would ship to theatres. The prevailing rumor, thanks to recent actor responses including Oscar Isaac just blatantly talking shit (as he should), is that Disney severely altered whatever cut JJ Abrams submitted. Kylo Ren/Ben Solo doesn't even have any spoken lines in that last like 20 minutes of the film which does seem odd. Finn is relegated to just screaming "Rey!" a bunch. It was supposed to be confirmed that the other woman from the stormtrooper program who was taken as a kid was Lando's daughter. Rose was also supposed to have a bigger role. And the fallen Jedi scene was supposed to have force ghosts -- not just voices. *shrug* Still didn't care about Kylo Ren's "redemption". He didn't need one. Let him be bad, who cares? The "true" Skywalker line can die off and I don't even mind the whole "Rey Skywalker" name claiming at the end of episode 9. It fits the working motif of "found family" the new trilogy has between Finn and Rey. I'm also very curious what JJ Abrams had in mind BEFORE Last Jedi (thanks Rian Johnson) and even before Carrie Fisher passed away.
I feel like Kylo getting redeemed was bound to happen. Like, if he had died when Rey stabbed him on the Death Star ruins, that would have been disappointing. But the way that they tried to redeem him was bad and you hit the nail on the head as to why. Also, him imagining seeing his father and talking to him to explain to the audience that he wants to change? Weak writing. But good on Harrison Ford for collecting his paycheck. TRoS was an insult to all of the interesting bits from TLJ, to the characters with unused potential and to just good writing in general.
I agree on most of your points, but the suggestion that Kylo Ren should have been the one spying on the faction that he is literally the dictator of sounds pretty ridiculous. Other than that, I agree with your video 100%, great video, please do more!
One thing I don't get is the whole "They make a point about Stormtroopers being people and then go around killing them" like, what can they realistically do? It's a war, they can't just talk the soldiers into not killing them and joining their side, you have to fight. But yes, I wanted to see Finn railing up Stormtroopers like in the leaked Trevorrow script, I just don't mind the characters killing troopers in the battlefield because it's WAR.
If Rian Johnsson were have left Kylo to be a villain, so Kylo Ren would be "decent" but because Rian Johnsson didn't follow the previous movie everything feels so lazzy written and improvise around his character, even his "romance" with Rey felt so out of character from her part, why Rey started to feel sorry for Kylo Ren? When their first interaction of both it was him trying to kidnapped her and almost killed one of her friends, for not mention the way Kylo killed Han Solo in front of her. If Rey had met previous Kylo, well ,it had made sense that she wanted to save him. But here is the thing, Rey doesn't know Kylo, all she knew about him is the fact that he's the son of Leia and Han and he was one of the responsaible that Luke's academy fallen. Out of this, there's nothing.. I don't understand people who claims that Kylo Ren is the only "good character" in this trilogy when the character is contradictory, lazzy written along with a bad redemption.
The Mandarin twist from Iron Man 3 would've worked better with Kylo. The First Order are using Starkiller base as a way to keep planets hostage and executes people if the New Republic does not meet their demands. And Kylo is the face of the organization. Then they finally get to Kylo and it turns out Snoke wanted to use Kylo's face and charisma to spark an all out war with the New Republic because Snoke things Leia is doing a terrible job at running the galaxy. Kylo regrets being used by Snoke and his redemption arc starts at E8. I feel like the new movies are as badly written as they are is because Disney is trying to avoid politics due how much hate the prequels got even though it made sense for the prequels to have them.
I've seen so many in all seriousness use "that was Kylo ren, not Ben Solo" and vice versa as an argument and like...The name thing just means "does evil shit" and "does good shit", they are the same fucking guy.
He is honestly well past the point of redemption considering what he did to entire planets of people just because the powers that be TALKED to the resistance. Like this kid ordered literal planetary genocides for no other reason than to scare people. Why the FUCK did they redeem him!? This kid is LITERALLY worse than Tarkin and more powerful than Vader in his prime!
I don't agree with every choice made in The Last Jedi--I fully acknowledge the flaws of the movie--but Rian Johnson's version of Star Wars is so much more compelling than the Star Wars seen in Rise of Skywalker. There's some actual ambition involved in Last Jedi and while it may not succeed at everything it attempts, there's something admirable about the fact that it tried. The Last Jedi seemed a natural continuation of Force Awakens. It's true that Force Awakens uses many of the same story-telling tropes as A New Hope, but I feel critics are being annoyingly simplistic when they say it's just a ripoff. Force Awakens doesn't have the daring of The Last Jedi, but some of the seeds of the later story are there. While Force Awakens doesn't do as much deconstruction as Last Jedi, there are some signs of it. First of all, it turns out between Return and Force that nothing worked out for our heroes. The Skywalker-Solo child fell to the Dark Side and Han and Luke fell to pieces. Leia did as well, if not quite as obvious as with Han and Luke. This event drove a stake through the heart of her marriage. In addition to all this, guess what, it turns out that the Empire has just shown up again, under a new name, so most of the hard-earned victories they had earned in the previous movies, are now in danger of being undone. And Leia winds up having to do all the work of salvaging all this, rather than getting to rest on her laurels because, see previous remarks about how Han and Luke fell to pieces. Force Awakens is like the first movie in a superhero trilogy where first you set up the hero and give us his backstory, while Last Jedi is more like the second movie of a superhero trilogy where the hero is really put to the test. Last Jedi leans even more on deconstruction tropes. Rather than go through the old Jedi/Sith, Dark Side/Light conflict, it seems to suggest that approach is entirely too limiting and simplistic, that the Jedi philosophy needs to undergo a version of the Reformation or the Vatican II. The Last Jedi seemed to want to build on The Force Awakens and further expand the universe. Whereas with The Rise, it feels like the creative parties involved, were scared of the new ideas or at least, so shaken by the backlash that Last Jedi received, that they hurriedly tried to undo some of its radical ideas and shrink the Star Wars universe down, turning it into something safer, more easily marketable, with less thinking involved. Of course, in trying to please everyone, Rise ultimately pleased no one, because that's usually how these things work. I much prefer Rian Johnson's version, but it still would have been nice if they could have worked things out with JJ Abrams, so the trilogy would tell a more coherent story, even if it might be a bit more cliched.
Kylo Ren deserved a redemption arc, but not in that way. I think it would be in somewhat of an action scene, not some random ass inspiring bullcrap. But Adam Driver plays the character well though.
Not that the movies aren't incoherent (and not that Jar Jar Abrams didn't bend over backward to please everyone against all logic) but... how much more LITERAL do you need you 'arc' to be? Ben was manipulated by Palpatine (posing as 'every voice in his head', including Vader ), then his parents carted him off to Luke who tries to kill him in his sleep - Luke, the hero who saved the galaxy and now deems him unforgivable enough to attack him in his sleep. His motivation is that everyone treated him as a solved puzzle, an open box they just need to find something to do with. Rey is the only one to not write him off as if he's unredeemable like literally everyone else. That is what connects them more than the Force dyads. That's why it's Han he sees before 'switching sides'. It's not Leia, who believes in 'vision on losing her son' and thought Ben lost forever, it's not Luke who believes in 'vision of Ben being evil, it's Han Solo who knows nothing of the Force and simply loved his son to the bitter end. That - this unconditional love - is what makes Kylo change. It's the chance to have it, from Ray, that makes him change. It's her ADMITTING that she wanted him - real him, Ben Solo who comforted her after she faces that cave, not the Kylo Ren persona - which makes him turn TO HER because he believes that maybe he's is not beyond redemption like everybody in his life told him. He doesn't turn to 'Light side' or 'Jedi side', he turns to HER side, he betrays Palpatine because he targets HER and goes to save HER.
I'm not gonna watch further cause it's not worth it. Maybe don't try to dissect character you don't care about? Because it really doesn't seem to work, if you think 'I've been every voice in your head' still doesn't mean that Palpatine talked to Ben and manipulated him.
You know, here is a thought- maybe making this Star Wars series where the protagonists are a woman and two men of color, and deciding that the white villain's story should take center stage, that the woman's arc should center totally around saving him, and totally sidelining the men of color was a...poor narrative choice. A boring narrative choice, especially since Kylo's motivations were also not super well written.
@@fandommusings5302 Great, now I'm not ever sure if you watched any movie sober, cause you sound like the dudebors who complained that Phasma's suit doesn't show boobs. A girl role model inspiring a man so much he falls in love with her? Surely he shackles the poor heroine and robs her of the much more powerful narrative! In their entire 'romance' it's Kylo who notices Rey being so good something draws him in, it's Kylo figuring out what he'd have to do for Rey to ever accept him (he literally offered her knowledge when she asked and then a galaxy - and notice she was okay with Kylo being gentle and confined in him when he was honest, but refused his outlandish demands to side with him) and Kylo who does all the changing of himself. Wile Rey simply exists as a genuinely good person and doesn't bend to Kylo's demands. That's all she does. Everything is Kylo himself. Oh, I'm sorry, SHE kisses HIM first, that's on her. ;) So it's actually Kylo Ren who's entire act revolves around scoring a girl, but when men are turned into cliche it's fine, right? I guess the bad white man don't deserve no woman role model.
@@spiderlily723 A woman who's narrative purpose focuses on bringing a man back to the light? A woman who "simply exists" to inspire a man to change. mmmhmm.
@@fandommusings5302 Oh, right. I forgot a woman can only inspire other women because if she dares inspire other sex is automatically oppressive. Guess Rey never saved BB8, never went on to find Luke, never joined the Resistance, never went to save Chewie, never trained as Jedi, never grappled with her abandonment... all she did without Kylo being a factor outside of them both existing as sides in the galactic war. I'm not sure if your truly this extremist or just trying too hard since it's popular on Yt now or something...
Kylo Ren gave me predator vibes a 40 year old man all of a sudden trying to seduce a 20 year old ewww. Kylo is a privilege white boy who gets the girls attention while the black good man fin gets cuxked with all his dialogue being Rey! While she could care less about him more about chasing her low life bad boy.
Isn’t Kylo Ren in his 20s? Anyways yeah it’s sad how Finn gets cucked for a dude that literally tried to kill her. Kylo Ren is written to be the toxic killer ex that the girl can save with a kiss and hormones. The movies sideline Finn including the hinted potential romance between Rey and Finn even tho they stilled teased it till the end of the new series even tho he gets cucked by a predatory murderous asshole who at most, just maybe looks cute to her. And I doubt he had a bad childhood either. He was born from a princess, from royalty, and I doubt leia and han would neglect him.
I have to admit I like Kylo Ren / Ben Solo. For the record, he was not responsible for the obliteration of the Hosnian Prime system, General Hux was. And I was certain Kylo / Ben would be redeemed. But you're right, it was poorly done. The whole Episode IX was some kind of "that's cool, it's Star-Wars-y and the fans like it". It was neither coherent nor emotionally moving or whatever. It was totally disrespectful towards Episode VIII. Had they just picked up where that episode left, I think it could have been a pretty good movie, and also a pretty good trilogy. Instead, it was a total waste. :-(
LOL. Vegeta's redemption is hilarious because there's no real point when he joins the good guys. He drifts from "enemy" to "enemy of the BIGGER enemy" to "living in Bulma's garage"
I liked the video at first, then I saw Avatar and switched it back to its rightful place. Ps If you hate Avatar just as me skip to 4:53, Fuck it goes back to it my eyes.
Before even watching this... yeah, ofcourse he's still a bad person. So was Anakin. It's a movie, people in real life who participate in mass genocide and child murder dont get "redeemed" by a single act. I can say with certainty that Kylos redemption was far more believable and meaningful than Vader, who was literally evil up til seconds before being dealt a deadly blow. For all we know his plan was to kill the emperor and again entice Luke to rule the galaxy with him. The only solid in universe evidence that he was redeemed at all is his force ghost, and I still call utter BS on that. If redemption is at all possible it is not possible as shown in that film.
i always feel like more people should know that there were like four drafts of ROTJs script made in the month of oct 1981 and only the last one had vader redemption. and gary kurtz left after having been like georges BFF throughout american graffiti, star wars, and empire strikes back, because he thought it was a bad film made to sell toys first and foremost they shoulda gone with the "throne room in magma chamber at the bottom of coruscant, vader tackles the emperor into lava and goes with him, and never comes back as a force ghost" version. we were robbed
![[Star Wars Spoilers] Kylo Ren's "Redemption Arc" sucked.](/img/logo.svg){kind=logo}
