This is so tiring. One video someone says this, other videos are saying SELL INFORMATION and other videos people are making a ton of money from their courses. It's all about this. Build your audience and be genuine. Take whatever path YOU WANT. You can be successful at any path you choose if you put in the work. People will always buy from people they like.
Agreed - I am part of a community of 400 coaches / consultants and info-product sellers that are all doing 7 / 8 / 9 figures... why say that it doesn't work? That is a play taken from page 1 of the traditional scarcity info-marketing tactic handbook. There are people running successful 7/8/9 figure businesses in pretty much every vertical / niche / biz model out there.
The point is that information alone does not work as well as it used to. The better or easier option (especially for starters) is to sell a service maybe with some info packed in. The idea is that you can reach your first income/revenue goals much faster by selling less at a higher price VS low ticket info. Once this machine is working and you understand your audience, THEN you can add in info products / workshops or whatever to the mix. It’s also easier to add these products after doing some DFY cause with DFY you quickly learn and understand your clients needs and that gives you the knowledge and IP you need to create great info products. These products can then be used to attract new people into your audience as free or paid leads magnets and potentially also make you a good amount of money over time. (This can be done from the start together with DFY, your chance of creating a good product is just lower) But starting with info products alone to build wealth or whatever your goal might be would probably be harder and take longer for 99% of people.
100% reason why you should not have RU-vid to find mentors on RU-vid, I've been selling info-products since 2002. You can't force 100% or even 20% of people to implement everything you've taught in your product. This guy is failing at it and putting his fears on US. 😅😂 All of what he touched on in this video is in all of my funnels. Front-End product + DFY Upsell + Video Course Upsell + DWY Upsell / SaaS Upsell. etc
I took an online course in 2021. The course creator made you finish the course by holding you accountable and giving you something at the end of the course for completing it. The course content lasted only 21 days, but if you did all the assignments, you got to keep the course content. Most people finished it and then signed up for his second course. His course was successful and a lot of his students were successful but if they were struggling, he came up with free and paid ways to help the strugglers - extra free course, coaching, mastermind groups, etc.
That only works with certain kinds of people... for those of use who know that no one has any control over us... so what if you don't complete the course. Unless he was giving out a sack of money... who cares?
My business mentor said people buy two things: 1. A Solution 2. A Result When I wrote business plans for clients, I made sure it was for the right reasons and the right audience. I think there's a tendency for entrepreneurs to forget that their Driving Force is to solve the problems in the market. They only want "the bag". Yet, they forget that solving the problem leads to "the bag".
fantastic someone else with a mind for 'business' I thought I was the only one lol whoohoo :)ps, they also spend too much time and money looking at 'value' when value has no wealth value is simply an idea and ideas have no price tag thus any value is simply intrinsic and conjecture spending time on value costs $$$$$$$$$ lot's and lot's of $$$$$$$
so, you assume that if i tell you i found a way to suspend plasma you'll buy in to it? nope you're just going to say 'bollocks' but, why? it's 'new' information lol there is nothing like it so, there for I wouldn't succeed if that's how you think lol XD Is it repetition of info or is it 'new' info that sells and succeeds? maybe you should rethink on this :)
@@Ultimate-Gamer1983 Obviously, he's talking about something that people would find value in and would want to buy. A scientist finding a way of suspending plasma is either: A) a researcher publishing it for science's sake or B) a researcher hired and paid well by a company which requires a way to suspend plasma. If I try to sell a fish to a vegetarian, it doesn't really work now does it? It doesn't mean that the fish market is dead and nobody eats fish anymore, if I have something valuable there will be people willing to give me value in exchange for it.
@@TheSeanjohn2012 of course others will 'buy in to' set info as, 'one mans knowledge is another man's success', or potential success providing they take that info and put it to practical working use.. but, you lost me in the 'fish market' where was the vegan sat again!? anyway... my point was this 'research and practical experimentation is key it's ok putting out info but, unless that info has solid foundation said info will always fail. hence, no value. like the 'plasma' it becomes intrinsic-conjecture. :)
@@TheSeanjohn2012 just to clarify, 'value' is intrinsic even when in a state of success and any value held by either party is simple conjecture by default. think less on what you see value in and more on what actually works by experimentation and practical work.. but, even then any value held by either side is still intrinsic in nature. :) Ps, intrinsic-conjecture=discounted value='guesstimation= not what it should be or what you thought it was or would be.. take a house or a car for example: you pay xxx only to realise 10yrs later it's valued at xx this is because what 'you' value is worth 0 ie 'intrinsic' and what 'they' value is 'discounted agains't you ie 'conjecture' now last time I checked 0+0=you guessed it > 0 LOL now for you to sell this house or car you need to offer it at a discount to get some value out of it discount being intrinsic.. and conjecture being less that what you assume it to be.. you see both intrinsic value and conjective value simply can not work in tandem because they nullify each other 0+0=0 ;D you get 225k for the house and they resell it at 275k simply because 'your' value was worth less than their value. and the onbly way to make the sale is via conjective-intrinsic-discounted-revaluation these are actual words lol XD
True. As soon as he started talking I was thinking "The real problem was all the info pushers who were doing the EXACT same thing". Video after video after video are people offering a little bit of common sense knowledge then trying to sell their BS course at the end of the video. I got so sick of seeing that, I just stopped searching for videos on the information I wanted to learn. Might as well hit up google.
I sell the same information in course format and in challenge format with coaching and community included. The challenge outsells the course 10 to 1 at almost 2x the price. And I get great testimonials from the challenge, while the course students are silent. I assumed they were finishing but weren't reaching out to me. But now I think they likely aren't finishing. Thanks for these stats.
@@teenageapocalypseusa5368 You give people a goal... like "wake up early for 30 days" then give people a community (group chat, Discord, FB group, etc.) that everyone joins to keep each other accountable. From there, people interact with everyone else doing the challenge, including the hosts/coaches, and shares their progress, accomplishments, setbacks... you can throw in little bonuses, do little live events, have weekly check-ins, and just keep people engaged with the program. When it's a group effort, and you know others are directly in the challenge with you, people are more likely to finish, compared to a course where... a solo individual can just fall off, and never finish.
The main principles of what to stop selling and what to start selling instead, according to the video, are: Stop selling: 1. Information/Online courses alone Start selling: 1. Implementation 2. Accountability 3. Community The main points mentioned in the order they appear are: 1. People are not buying online courses like they used to, and completion rates are abysmal (5-15%). 2. Information alone is no longer valuable because there is too much free information available. 3. What is scarce and valuable today is time, so sell implementation instead of just information. 4. Three ways to sell implementation: a. Do it for them (service-based business) b. Do it with them (coaching/consulting with accountability) c. Do it with others (community/cohorts for accountability) 5. Convert the convenience, not just the information. 6. Understand the differentiation between what you offer and free information. 7. Proof is priceless (use case studies and transformations). 8. If starting out, use the "1-1-1 strategy" to get proof and results. For more details WATCH THE VIDEO UNDERSTANDING IS IMPORTANT FOR THESE MAIN POINTS
Love this, Pat! The reason there is "too much information" is that it is ubiquitous since the internet. Community built around the topic that enables them to support a movement is what allows that information to be implemented! The connection and collaboration of a community is the value, and is what lifts all members up. Such great info! Thanks for sharing.
I love it when leaders or influencers tell people not to do something anymore. It's good for the one who is still doing it. It´s not about the product type it´s the place where to sell. And on top, you offer (and sell) the DFY. Thanks.
A main reason courses are not selling is because there are so many terrible courses, not because information is free. People are wising up. Every time someone buys a course that is garbage, they are less likely to buy another one. I would say only 10% or courses are any good, if that.
@@AugustDavinDeepson The majority of ads and products being sold today is mostly trash or impulse buying bait. Most of the good course I found were buried deep in bad course. Reason for this is because of marketing. People who do research like myself have to filter through multiple sources that are on the top search results because writers figured out how to market their product for clicks vs people who made something good but don't know how to compete with top page writers. It's why there been an increase of google searches that end with reddit in them.
I've bought really good course which I eventually finish but it takes a while for me to do so. I'm just tired of reading learning and not implementing. I thi k he's making a good point here.
The speaker, Pat Flynn, suggests three ways that creators can sell implementation instead of information: Do it for them: This means providing a service where you do the work for the customer. For example, if you teach people how to build websites, you could offer a service where you build websites for them. Do it with them: This means coaching or consulting with customers to help them achieve their goals. For example, if you teach people how to lose weight, you could offer coaching services to help them create a weight loss plan and stick to it. Do it with others: This means creating a community or cohort where people can learn from each other and hold each other accountable. For example, if you teach people how to start a business, you could create a community forum where people can ask questions and share tips. Flynn believes that these methods are more effective than selling information because they provide more value to the customer. Customers are more likely to succeed if they have someone to help them implement what they learn.
When I started seeing direct ads from some of the "big names" in course creation, it was clear that wave was over. AND after taking courses in the past and finding most are b.s. or a regurgitation of b.s., I was over it. I feel like so many people don't know what to teach, so they take a course and then start selling a course on the same topic. sigh.
Absolutely agree! 💡 Shifting focus from just providing information to offering implementation solutions adds tangible value to your audience's lives, making your business indispensable in today's overloaded world of information.
In the start of 2023, I intended to publish a course and sell it. I've been freelancing for almost two years by then. But for some reason, I could never record the videos for my courses. Later that year, I made a change. I started hiring people to get some of the work done. When I started doing that, the growth was almost immediate. I was able to grow my team, revenue, and this year, I officially started my own company helping early-stage startup founders 10x their marketing results with half the budget using freelancers in the Philippines and leveraging AI workflows. And for me, selling execution is a lot more fun. This video confirmed my decision! So happy that I followed my gut. Glad that there are videos like this that are looking at the hard facts and pivoting.
That's exactly what Im trying to do as well. Selling value by saving businesses time and let them focus on growing. Are you a apart of any groups? Maybe we can connect since we're doing the same thing. I already have funding and domain bought btw, and a first' sandbox' client
I’ve been selling online courses since 2020 and have definitely seen exactly what you’re talking about however we also provide mentorship and community which is why we are still in the game 🎉
Retention in MOOCs and online courses has been studied for a while. There are many reasons people don't complete them. Anyone trying to create and sell online courses should have experience and/or training in adult education principles. The industry is shifting because people are sick of trying to learn something from someone who might not know how to teach. I highly suggest the book, "The Adult Learner" by Malcolm Knowles for anyone wanting to develop a successful online course / education-based business.
We can't control the macro but what opportunity does this create for us? It allows us to get ahead, pivot and be proactive to find new ways to offer support, and it can force us to innovate.
Not exactly, but we're clearly moving away from automated income from information only. Creating a software to solve a solution, for example, is far from time for dollars.
This is 100% accurate! I've noticed this also. Trying to sell just Info is not cutting it anymore. I've been thinking of different ways to pivot and this is great info. Thanks Pat!
I’ve listen to pat for years around his beginning. It was amazing I learned so much. I see that time is no longer the same so it’s really nice to have pat give his opinions to the new changes in the world.
Thanks so much Pat! I've been trying to figure out how to get started with the experiences I've had in my life (I'm 45, lol) and I couldn't see a way to package and monetize what I know that hasn't been already put online. But you've given me a knew way to look at it. Now I'm reinvigorated to take another look at all of this!
You nailed it! I've been doing this since 2009 via a JVP (bona fide joint venture partner with executed agreements) program/platform and it's something literally no other person/provider/company in the space does (and I've done it across multiple industries). Excellent job, Pat. Zero filler. All pure gold. 💪
Pat, I needed to hear this from you. You're one of the first digital entrepreneurs I've followed who's has massive success with info marketing/courses. I've been meaning to do courses again and again, but the landscape really has changed. Perhaps at best, I'd consider doing micro offers between $9-27 for larger audiencese, but community power is the way to go. You've also reinvigorated my perspective on service--even passive income goes dry. Thank you for the wisdom!
I so dislike when people say "that won't work" "that's not gonna happen", when so many people are clearly still doing it. Why not just present your POV without pushing absolute statements?
I agree that selling useful services will do very well. The problem is that to sell services it requires the providers time, 1:1 in proportion to the service rendered, as opposed to selling knowledge (or other digital products) which can be done once and sold multiple times. I think that is what a majority of people are trying to do by starting a youtube channel or selling courses/ebooks. Still, it was a great video and provided some food for thought! Just making any content doesn't work anymore, it has to be information that is not out there yet and that solves a specific problem.
Mr. Pat Flynn, this is DEFINITELY the most important VIDEO to watch in 2024. Many people will SCOFF or PLAY DEFENSE on what was REVEALED here, but TRUST ME, I heard you LOUD AND CLEAR. Thank you for pulling back the CURTAIN, revealing what is necessary to SUCCEED, and then providing the Algorithms and Strategies for Successful TRANSFORMATION. You got DOWN with this Video - You Hear Me - You GOT DOWN....
Pat, I couldn't agree more and I've been trying to sell implementation over information for ages now. The trouble is people don't think they need help with implementation. They think if they just keep consuming all the free information, they'll eventually implement it and get the results they want. How do you convince someone that they'll probably still be stuck in the same place years from now if they don't get help with implementation?
Great to hear someone confront the truth about selling information. Gaining attention is key. Pitch yourself as a KPI: key person of influence. If they know you, like and trust you they are likely to choose you.
Hi Pat, you showed a graph of "change in revenue" to support your argument that selling online courses was no longer working. However, the graph went down to +0.6% change in revenue, meaning that your revenue was still growing. So essentially you were still making more or less the same amount of revenue as you were during the pandemic. I would interpret that to mean that online courses are still a very attractive revenue model. BR, Christoph
i can honestly say that a had a flat tire on the road and the small information pamphlet that came with the vehicle on how to change the tire was invaluable and empowered me to do answer the call the life had required of me in that moment. maybe the information you are providing isn't as valuable as it once was and the market is letting you know, either way i've subscribed
As an educator, we often hear students say, "Why am I learning this? I'll never use it." Stop selling information and sell implementation. Makes sense to this educator.
I have been selling tutoring services since before the pandemic. Clearly, it is complex to scale, yet it commands a higher price and has a higher completion rate.
It comes down to the target quality of your email list as not all email list quality are created equally regardless of quantity. Ultimately, it's the relationship with your list and how you brand yourself. What value do they use from what you have and the reputation generated from it.
Is there an information implementation industry? Not only personal service with super-rich people, altho the accelerator idea is semi-okay, can be done, there are many other ways, including those people doing it themselves with particular tools|methods.
Back in the day, rock stars first made their money mostly from live events, and records used to be a way of promoting themselves. By the 1970s, it was the other way around. Bands toured to promote their latest albums. By the time Napster came around and people could get music for free, the music industry was up in arms... When the music industry realized it was basically a losing battle, they went back to making most of their money through live events again. Only this time, they charge much higher ticket prices and make tons selling merchandise at concerts. Seems like a similar business model.
00:00 🚫 Selling information doesn't work anymore. 00:53 📉 People aren't buying online courses like they used to. 01:20 ⏳ Abysmal completion rates for online courses (5-15% industrywide). 02:19 💡 Why information no longer holds value: oversaturation. 03:01 🛠 Start selling implementation instead of information. 03:38 🔄 Three effective ways to implement: do it for them, do it with them, do it with others. 07:28 🌐 Community-based learning is more effective than standalone courses. 09:28 🛒 Convert convenience, not just information. 10:36 🎯 Differentiate your offer from free information available online. 11:22 🏆 Proof is priceless: use case studies and real-life results to support your claims.
So many courses sell the transformation and fail to share HOW to actually step by step get there. They up sell the course gap, that they sold you on buying the first one. If you dont buy the next level, your failure is because you didn't buy the upsell. If you call them out in their "community", they ban you (and dont refund you since its past the small refund window)
Nah, not exactly. Think about how you can be sure your students can implement - or what you can do to ensure they get results. Info alone is a tough thing right now unless it’s truly unique and can’t be found anywhere else.
You know with all the hoopla around AI, loneliness and isolation issues, people are yearning for human to human contact and connection. Human to human contact and connection will be at a premium. This is the future ....
@vanessa_simmons That's like saying, Well, Apple already built the personal computer and iPhone, so you can tell Samsung, Dell, etc. There's no more need for smartphones or PCs....
I learned programming, 2d art tools, 3d art tools, video editing, etc all online for free and like in dial-up days. I honestly never understood why these 'courses' worked for people at all over the following 20 years. Same useless junk as selling pdf's most of the time. Anyway I support this message
I think this is definitely accurate - I am seeing as my competitors in the music space are trying to sell courses and not having much success - but we are still doing pretty good. I think a big reason is because we leverage a community element with weekly calls and focus quite a bit on that implementation piece - but I think we can also do better and find more ways to improve. Also, Pat - met you in the hallway at the Think Media conference in Vegas I think 2 years ago and was awesome being able to chat and meet you. Thanks for all you do.
The problem is that people LIE to get you to buy. They sell you the dream, and then the course sells you a giant gap in information. Like they sell you how to make a recipe and then when it gets to seasoning, they say "buy our proprietary seasoning" to get the flavor.
Emphasizing quick, impactful delivery and authentic interaction can revolutionize product success in consumer technology, guiding strategic development and improving user retention.
4 месяца назад
I wrote a book on how I got my Green Card in less than six months, and wanted to create a course on it. Yesterday I saw a couple of videos on Skool, which is a platform to build a community for your course, as I understood. Is this a solution Pat Flynn was talking about, or does he have his own platform, or teaches us to create our own?
Yes, something like Skool helps bring community and accountability (and a bit of gamification) into the goal-getting process for people learning stuff from creators. I personally use Circle.so for the same process which I like better but Skool is an option too.
Hi Pat - super helpful video and as someone that has been in SPI and taken the community building course this is a very helpful reminder. Question, any suggestions on how we can make CBCs more passive or less manual? Especially if giving custom feedback to students on docs or a mock interview are part of the current live curriculum?
@@faizansheikh6010 I haven't sold any. I am not getting traffic either. It is like I am way off in the woods, and the traffic going by on the main road. It is as if I am hidden.
Thanks Pat! I agree and now feel more confident then ever to move forward with my business 😃For me its 2 and 3, I didn't want to start a course which is very time consuming only to hear crickets, love your videos, your the best!
I agree 100% with Pat, I've pivoted and went differently about selling online by following people like Elon Musk and Grant Cardone I focus on UIUX , Saas, and went back to Real Estate and a Solid Network Marketing company and mixed it all into a Social Community! Lets Go!
As someone who buys a lot of course.. Just because, I've also been thinking about this. I don't complete and sometimes I wish I could just get someone to just do it for me. Initially I thought I was using it as an excuse not to start but it was a legit concern. I agree that implementation is the way to go. Now I just need to figure this out for my relationship knowledge set and experience.
It's same concept coaching also is information and the thing is about course completion percentage it's same since long time the issue with online course is very long so many chapters if the course is short and consize it will be better
grifters will always find a new way to grift. The reality is once a grifter is selling a course, that market is already saturated. There's already all the information you need for any subject for free. Don't give any of these people a penny as they are all full of BS
Pat was/is the most transparent marketer of all time. And someone rewarded him with a hacking of his website. What did Pat do? Shared how to protect your website and the details of the ordeal. Legend.
Hi Pat! This video was so helpful - thank you! I completely agree - this message is invaluable for me as I'm creating my health coaching program. Just curious, I love the way you did the rectangular talk bubble as you shared your screen - can you share what app or software you used for that?
Courses were easy to sell for $1000-$1500. Now you can still sell for $100-$500 but add in affiliate offers and paid memberships to get recurring income. Drop Servicing is better tho cause you can resell services.
I work at an automation company for a specific segment (event promoters) we give away a lot of information that used to be gated or paid and make money when we give people their time back via automations. I think this could be more hands-on via Zapier and other tools, like automation agencies. Doesn’t have to be fully fledged software like us.
I am building something similar myself but for another segment. I first thought about selling an automation template for people to use. The challenge is that the person/company will have to then pay for the individual services that my template will automate. As of this week, I am leaning towards just providing the automation for them. Working on how to build the front end for this service and pricing.
I think what people are most annoyed with is 12 minute videos that could be said in 3 minutes. This is why TikTok is doing the best out of all platforms. People don't want to sit down and waste their time on something that could have been said in a fraction of the time.
It's clearly growing though in your graph Pat @1:14! The SPIKE was caused by a pandemic- an unusual event so of course, it's wrong to compare now to that anomoly. I'll watch the video but again clearly there is growth STILL....AND I THINK YOU ARE GONNA SAY community...which is key and LIVE SUPPORT.
There is growth but it’s slowed down considerably compared to prior years, including before the pandemic when information alone was valuable and not so easily accessible. We want to get ahead of the game and especially with AI now doing a lot of these info based things for us now, we have to think ahead.
00:02 Selling information is no longer viable 01:33 Focus on providing valuable content instead of just selling information 03:10 Stop selling information, start selling implementation 04:46 Offer coaching or consulting for accountability and success in online courses 06:28 Stop selling info, start selling implementation 07:56 Community-driven learning is more impactful than just selling information. 09:25 Convert convenience, not information 11:06 Differentiate your coaching by highlighting unique value and offering proof.
I am part of a community of 400 coaches / consultants and info-product sellers that are all doing 7 / 8 / 9 figures... why say that it doesn't work? That is a play taken from page 1 of the traditional scarcity info-marketing tactic handbook. There are people running successful 7/8/9 figure businesses in pretty much every vertical / niche / biz model out there.
If you're starting from scratch, do you really think selling an info-product is going to work without any implementation opportunities? With no audience and no list - selling info isn't going to work, and especially without one proving themselves first. Your community, Yamuna, I'm sure, is made up of superstars who have a lot of authority built up over the years, who sell high-end coaching programs that actually do get results, and for those who cannot afford the coaching and consultations - info as a lower-tiered offer is great. However, those completion rates continue to get lower and lower, and I would argue against anyone who tells me that long term, information alone will win out. Most people here on RU-vid are NOT the ones who have built a ton of authority and trust over time. They do not have crazy brand loyalty and can launch anything, and it's that majority who needs to know that because the top-tier people can sell courses, it doesn't mean it's a viable option for everyone coming in new. That's a false assumption and often leads many people to disappointment because their info-product didn't sell, when they haven't even tried to actually serve their audience to get results in the first place.
@@patflynn I disagree with the above. We hit our first $100K months with 400 followers on IG and 0 subs on RU-vid and have many clients doing the same. Direct response marketing with paid traffic, cold outreach, warm outreach, referrals, etc all do not depend on an audience or "crazy brand loyalty" and all work. The belief that you cannot have a 7/8/9 figure company without brand / big audience seems to be more of a belief that YOU have rather than an absolute reality in the marketplace. But I would not tell people that they should believe what you believe, because it is simply not true - it is just your opinion.
@@patflynn You have a belief that is incorrect and misleading. We reached 100K/mo with 400 followers on IG and 0 subscribers. My business is not unique in this way - there are 1000s of businesses WITHOUT "a ton of authority and trust over time" and "crazy loyal brands" who have mastered cold traffic, cold outreach, direct response marketing, warm outreach, referrals, affiliates, etc and so many other ways to get leads and make sales other than traffic from organic followings. We have 600 clients who sell info-products priced $700-20,000 growing 6/7/8 figure companies without big followings. Just title this as "my experience / my opinion on info-products" rather than spreading false beliefs is all I am saying.
It feels like either courses intentionally leave out key critical information or just don't give you enough information to really accomplish the dream that they are telling you and selling you. The other common thing I see is they pump out 10 hours a week of podcasts and interviews and live streams and tell you to consume all the information and that the information is just in the material you have that listen to yet either way they blame you for not succeeding and not completing it. This second method where they pump out hundreds of hours of content explains their blatant disrespect for the viewer's time. I had a thousand dollar course that I'd purchased and it was about video production and the author was saying how video quality doesn't matter as much as the information and to prove his point he wasn't going to edit out flubs or mistakes and was going to not care about the quality of the video as long as the "content was good"/ 😅😅
People might worry, trading “time for money”. This business can still be passive if you perfected making a team that either manages your community well, does consulting and even does the service that you do. To make this business model passive, you need to act as a founder and give your employees a part of the business equity.
Not necessarily - I see a lot of creator led businesses that have zero employees and definitely do not share equity, but still automate their processes to remove the time required, or hire the right people (even contractors) to remove that work from the creators plate as well.
This is valuable for me just starting on my entrepreneurial journey. I’ve been leaning more towards building communities and interactive courses to help people get through to the results they wish they had. Thanks for sharing! How do you do your presentations where you’re in the phone and you have the info on the left?
Selling trt definitely still working and if the buyers did not complete their course then that’s 100% their issue and they have to work on themselves and take initiative as this is a serious character flaw that could kill the whole business they’re trying to start in the cradle if not solved immediately. if you can’t even complete the course that You have paid for then we’re having a serious problem here !!! Not the service provider problem, like saying we are selling good food but the buyer is having eating disorder or can’t be bothered opening the food package and Bering some forks so we must start hand feeding them, community of course have time and place but the presentation theory is flawed.
