new totes are reusable, your maths applies to a 1 time purchase. additional maths to consider, is extra trips, for every 4 baskets you will be hauling a 5th now, it might be only a few mins, but its time and by your math time is indeed money. though loose stacking certainly is the way to go here.
What a coincidence that youtube recommends me a video of someone from the states using "Made In Finland" product lol. Does it have many plastic parts, or do they still make everything here either from metal or wood? :D
I believe your labor vs. tote calc is off on the dollars because you will use the totes again and again for the original $400 You will have to stack again and again and again at a cost of 11 hours each time you stack the wood (based on the 50 tote example). So, for the first time you use the totes, $36.36/hour is the result, but the value of the tote increases each time you don't stack in it after that, so over time that tote will come down significantly in "hourly price" TBH - never understood why you were stacking in the totes to begin with. Loose piling with the totes is probably the most efficient drying you will get. Lots of small piles held a little bit off the ground- way to go! And as you noted, they are just going to get dumped into a trailer for delivery anyway. Love the channel Good luck!
Right. If one supposes the lifetime of a tote is 15 years, (15 seasons) - the annual cost of the 8 totes is $26.66. So then at 11 hours of labor, you'd be at $2.42/hr for stacking.
I came here to say this too. One time fixed cost - or at least until the things break and they are durable. Also he can churn out a lot more totes so if demand is ever higher than his output capacity with stacking, he's coming ahead there too. Not to mention the savings on your back!
Also don’t cut out the side of future totes. They will hold a little more and not drop wood out when transporting as easily. (Plus another time saver not having to cut totes.😂)
It would be interesting to do a moisture comparison. If you stack one and loose fill one to see if the loose fill one would dry faster because it has better air flow. If it does dry faster, that also lessens the turn around time providing that you have the sales for it. That's my 2 cents. 🧐
@@SimonWoodburyForget Where you got that idea? More end grain surface area visible for to sun to shine? Maybe that is the case but if you make it 3 rows stacked middle one gets barely any sunlight. When loose filled sun gets to center as well. Also turbulent airflow tends to pick up more moisture and heat from the surface than laminar flow of air. I do have time to stack but not enough energy to do so. Only ones that i stack are 1meter long ones witch two stacks can be put into one EUR pallet with its added 3 board strips and after drying those are cut into 30/70 peaces for our fireplace sizes. From what i have seen both are about fast to dry so i would not bother for stacking for next winters firewood. Only for extended storage.
Loose fill and stacking ratio is dependant on the container properties and the log size. In perfect model you would have no walls - a very large pile is close enough and in this case the ratio is about 0.7 to 1. In the tote packing the stacked way it appears to leave big gaps in the sides. This really depends on the log length. For drying purposes in the tote the loose way could be better but it is well known that in a large loose pile it dries slower and there is risk of mould developing in the inside.
The economics on not stacking are even better because the totes aren’t single use. They last for years… thus you save the time annually and don’t incur the cost annually. 😎. Nice operation! I like that swinging conveyor. Now you just need a second tractor so you never need to unhook the PTO 😆.
Use the digger to move the full totes out of the way and replace with empty ones. At the end of the day unhook PTO and move the totes to the drying area. Do it once and no extra tractor required.
One thing you failed to mention is that if you're stacking you have to keep stopping cutting logs and go over to the tote and stacking then repeat vs. Just being able to keep cutting logs.
More firewood goes through the processor in a year, and that in turn lowers the depreciation cost per cord. Lowering your costs allows you to produce more with the same overall labor cost. But as you increase the supply, more of your time will go to marketing and delivery.
In Finland we have formulae between stacked and a thrown pile. 1m3 of thrown wood is 0.6 m3 stacked wood. And 1m3 of stacked wood equals 1.67 throw pile. Japa is a good machine! I have one from 2013. Made in Finland!
Adam, I like the way you show us as you learn rather than figuring it out and then presenting the result. Makes for more interesting videos and is more inspirational. Thanks!
I like the way you analyze things. As a businessman, it is wise to be this way, but our time is out most previous commodity. We have a finite supply of that so anything done in processing wood that saves time makes sense usually, in my opinion.
Two suggestions. 1. If you’re sticking with the no stack method then you don’t necessarily need to cut the opening in the totes if you’re just going to empty them into your trailer for delivery. Without the opening they should be able to fit a little more wood into them. 2. Instead of cutting the lids like shallow trays you could make them deeper to hold more sawdust and wood chips and just recess them into the ground a little.
Not cutting the totes also allows you to stack them. My firewood guy does this despite having plenty of space available. According to him the upper ones dry much better because they catch more wind.
Stacking is fine if you have nothing better to do and of course a much smaller volume. Working with wood is a lot of work anyways. It's mostly about looks comparing stacked vs piled freely.
My thought Adam, If you are going to drop the wood in loose, I would not cut out part of the basket. I would cut that piece out to the bottom and find a way to hinge it so you could let it open as a gate when you dump into the trailer.
Wow all you part timers on youtube over complicate stuff. You all create too much work for yourselves. At 60 I am a one man show and hell i do around 100 chords a season and that does not include supplying stores, with my saw and processor on the front of my bobcat. Hell i can split over the truck bed or the dump trailer.
Amazing set up, in the UK some suppliers use dumpy 1ton bags, the only difference is ours are kiln dried logs, not seasoned logs. Suggestion for the sawdust, compressed will make burnable log bricks. But the kit to do that could be expensive, the other alternative is animal bedding, ie horses, cows, chickens etc. Good luck, lovely setup you have.
Adam, you could easily make another section for your log deck and save having to cut them in half. I made one that is 10' wide for my buddy's Blackscreek processor and it was pretty easy. I think your next consideration is a skid mounted stand alone power pack for the processor. Either direct drive or could even convert it to full hydraulic drive. Much easier than having to switch your tractor around. FYI, I use conveyors off my processor and pile the splits in tall piles. I'm in a windy location so never have mold issues. I hand load onto a conveyor which dumps into my dump trailer or flat bed. This means clean splits and very little bark to the client. Totes are expensive here now and too much handling for me.
You seem to have a good system going! I produce hundreds of cords a season with a mini excavator just like Adam has there, I physically only touch my wood one time! Logs come from crane services, huge oaks, maples, and ash trees mainly (24”-50” typically), buck them up and chuck rounds into a huge pile, hydraulic splitter for the mini, breaks them into 25-50lbs pieces, then the hands take the splits through the wood splitters and that’s it…load trailer with the bucket and thumb off the massive pile and down the road it goes…massive firewood piles make the money not little baskets full…haha!
Nice to hear that there are still neighbors that are trust worthy helping themselves and leaving payments unattended . Where i live in they will take the money box and firewood away free .
As a numbers guy, I really appreciate your analyses of cost and effort in the things you do. Also love the timber frame firewood stand. It's a gorgeous structure, and your mom's painting is beautiful.
I would love a video on your thoughts of covering the totes vs not. I use totes to store my firewood but keep them covered by using the IBC bladder cut in half then using thick zip ties to hold them in place - gives me about 8” of additional storage as well. The bladder caps keep most of the rain/snow off them all year round. I bring wood into the house directly from the totes, and not having the caps would mean I would be bringing in wet wood. Do your customers have an issue with receiving wood delivery that has been sitting out in the rain and snow all year?
One thing to consider when calculating cost/expense ratio and your hourly rate of stacking vs the cost of the totes. Your calculations are accurate if the totes were only used one time. Every time you refill those totes that hourly rate gets cut in half.
One thing you didn't mention was that stacked an IBC tote holds 1 face cord exactly. Unstacked you're going to have to guess more as taking out .83 of a face cord each tote is going to be a bit tougher to calculate.....just a thought!
@@HometownAcres Fair enough...I guess once customers got used to that it would def work! I know most of my customers want a specific amount of wood as they know how much they use/go through. Hope it works out for you as it is a real time saver!
Recommendation - try marketing your wood shavings/sawdust at pet stores and farm supply stores. This works well for bedding for rabbits, gerbils and chickens. I filled coffee cans and put in some diesel and sold as fire starter too.
I make firewood for my own use. We have been heating with wood for over 40 years now. I've never had so much wood on hand that I didn't want to keep just in case. So when I watch the guys that sell it stacking it all neatly, I think I'm glad I don't have to do that! I've been using old trailers (anything that will roll, with or without tires that hold air) hay wagons and IBC tote cages for years now to save labor. I don't have to measure other than to say I've got so many trailers, wagons and bins full. I have no idea how many cords of wood I burn in a winter. I don't even care as long as the wood lasts longer than the winter. Since going to this method we save about 80% of the work of firewood. No way I would stack a tote if I didn't have to! I have a half dozen or so trailers, 3 hay wagons and over 50 totes currently. I'm happy if they are all full in the fall and last for heating the house, shop and cooking maple syrup. I burn only dead and down wood so the dry time is much less. I see more wasted firewood on RU-vid! A little rot will dry out and burn fine. But now I'm just ranting!
According to your measurements a stacked tote will hold 20% more not 16.7%. If the loose tote is 48" and the stacked tote is 40" you need 20% more wood to fill the stacked tote. 40x1.2=48. If you are crunching all these numbers you'll have to consider the extra time it takes for fill the 10 totes, move the 10 totes to the drying area and the time it takes to dump the 10 totes into your trailer. You may have to buy the extra 10 totes but that is a one time shot. If you have loose totes how do you know how much you are giving the customer? If they are to stack it once you deliver it and they are short I bet they're never buying from you again.
Agreed. While loose to stacked = 48" to 40" = 40/48 ie a 16% decrease, calculating stacked to loose = 48/40 ie a 20% increase. So you would need 10 additional totes.
Good math Adam. I think I'm sold. I can get my totes for free, so that helps a lot. With this process will you still cut one side out? Or leave them as is.
Hey, thanks for the great video and analysis. Question: Why is the wood on 4:38 not covered? I saw a lot of guys here in germany who does it like this, also after days of raining. Is there any special reason for this? regards from germany Julius
It's hard to cover large quantities of firewood, especially in totes. Plus people have tested it and found that it doesn't slow down the dry time, in fact, my understanding is that especially if you have it stored in an area with lots of wind and sun, it might dry faster without a cover. I suppose if you are stacking in the woods and shade, it probably should be covered.
Using the loose=48" and stacked = 40", you would have to multiply stacked by 1.2, not 1.167. 1 lose tote = .83333 stacked totes (40/48), 1 Stacked tote = 1.2 lose totes (48/40). Another way to look at it is you lose 8" per stacked tote, so 8" * 50 = 400" and each tote can hold 40", so that's an extra 10 totes
I did a similar experiment myself with my firewood. Roughly a 20% space saving by stacking and because I have loads of IBCs so stacking for me is in no way worth the extra hassle and labour. I'm very fortunate though as I get my IBCs for free
Like his style, grabbing it by the smooth end of the handle. Put some webbing on the front of those totes. Simple Velcro closer. The only place it must look good, is at customer delivery. Working at my dad's woodyard was the best part-time job I ever had. We turned one-hundred cords a season. We had location for retail pick-ups and made weekend deliveries. the
This will never work around where I live. That wood will be gone including the stand and whatever money there probably wasn’t anyway. It wouldn’t last a day 😂!! In a perfect world this sounds amazing though.. ❤
You could easily make bricks out of all that sawdust. The poly bins from the inc's would make good mixing tubs. Alternately could run it through a pelletizer to crank out bags of pellets.
I wouldn't split a lot of that. For me 16 inch long by 8 inch is ideal. With some small stuff to fill in the edges. Nice operation though. Best Wishes from Montana! M.H.
When I am buying firewood I will never but from a company that just loosely dumps in its firewood. The reason is because I am getting taken for a ride because that said company is changing me for a cord of firewood but I am not getting a cord. I will only buy from a place that properly stacks its firewood because I am getting a proper cord of wood
As an Albertan this whole setup doesn't make sense to me. All my logs have been sitting in a pile for several years drying before I get to them so there is no need to store the wood after its been cut. Its all delivered for free by oilfield companies at no cost to me. I have my firewood processor on a raised platform so the conveyor empties straight into the dump trailer. I scoop up a load of logs with the loader, cut off the big stumps and skinny ends, then set them on the log deck so set up is efficient. The dump trailer holds 3.5 cords of wood and takes about an hour to fill and two hours to deliver, so I can do roughly 3-4 deliveries per day. Each dump trailer load sells for $700, and fuel costs are low so its almost all profit. I get the same repeat customers ordering multiple loads of firewood every year. The only critique I would have for my setup is its not in a building or pole shed so snow and weather is an issue. Seeing a firewood business on a small scale like this seems really inefficient.
well, if you fit in 16% less wood, and gain the labor costs from not manually stacking them, are you charging less for the loose baskets? or you charging the same for the less wood and labor?
Another thought, the plant I work in throws away those totes and also a ton of wooden crates (think of a 4' pallet, but cubed). I've been looking for someone to take them away for free that has a use. We are nowhere near you, but now I'm going to call the closest firewood guy.
The number times you can use the tote has been covered. If you have a cheap source of totes, a number of your customers would appreciate a clean strong place to hold the wood and wouldn't mind buying totes at a reasonable mark-up.
why even use baskets ? Just gravel your storage spot fill your dump trailer and just dump onto the storage spot and make a big mound then when customers need it you just scoop with either your mini or skid steer. This would save even more hours cause you wouldnt have to disconnect the pto on your tractor
If I could I''d move to such a place, not only nice looking but where all people are so honest and respectful not to steal both the firewood and the money box within 4 hours
theres a firewood supplier that uses ibc totes and he takes the plastic cut in half diagonally (top left corner to bottom right) to make rain guards that sit on top. looks like a small pitched roof.
Just a suggestion from a retired banker to add 8” to your totes to allow loose stacking that would avoid having to re-stack the firewood. Possibly sacrificing a tote to be cut for 8” that are welded to the kept tote. Crunch the upfront expenses to future labor cost recovery. Thanks for sharing the journey
If Adam loses 8" stacked volume then he would have to add more than 8" to make up for it when thrown in. Totes are galvanized which makes them ugly to weld, simpler to just use additional totes.
For your slash and sawdust collectors, you might consider cutting the bladder-bottom walls a little higher on the back and sides to better capture the material and screwing the bottoms down to a wooden pallet to make them easier to move around after being loaded.
What a fantastic setup to begin with, and completely agree with going with the non-stacked approach based on your analysis, and especially given the amount of totes you already have in your operation. The time savings will be amazing as it compounds and totes re-used. I think I'd also put some sort of markers down on the ground where the three totes go so you don't have to even think about it when replacing them with empties.
Amazing setup Adam, it would be great to see if you could do a comparison/ retrospective video from where you were a few years back with the firewood vs today. As a long time watcher I’d be very interested!
Great idea I saw a video pop up from two years ago titled "final piece of the dream firewood making list" or something similar and I thought oh how things have changed.
If I ever get a conveyor I’ll be doing the same thing right off the splitter. I’m all about eliminating touches. I’d like to see a study on drying time for stacked vs. loose. Intuitively it seems loose would dry quicker but I’d love to see actual data.
He’s not much better off, he had half the baskets he has now…I’m calculating a 100/ basket, he’s making a extra 2500 for the season…and I never knew you actually paid for the baskets so…minus…them….he’s not making any money it seems…lol!
I doubt i'd ever be able to have a roadside firewood stand where i'm located , if i had a rock and a stick i'd have 2 different people steal the rock and the other the stick
Why not just use a tarp to catch the saw dust. It'll cover a larger area. I think you should be able to pull the tarp's corners to gather the saw dust to its center so you can shovel it to a trash can.
Also, just as others have pointed out that the 8 extra IBC totes are reused, thus amortizing their cost, the 11 hours of stacking time is also available repeatedly! So we’re talking about a huge opportunity cost of stacking. Each set of those 11 hours can be used for production further amortizing the extra cost of the totes. Assuming you have the demand for your product, this is a highly profitable virtuous circle. Good video!
I think you eventually have to move towards a wood pile and use use a loader to load the wood into a trailer or pickup. Stacking and moving totes takes too much time.
Don't forget to factor in that you only buy totes once. By not stacking the wood, you save the same amount each time you fill the totes. Of course, I am assuming your totes aren't being used just once.
I don't recall that you considered the opportunity cost associated with your stacking vs non-stacking analysis. When stacking, you're choosing to spend 13 minutes on stacking vs running the japa for an additional 13 minutes to increase your processing production. Also, I suspect that there would be a fatigue factor to consider when stacking; i.e. the longer you stack the more tired you will become. Ultimately, your 13 minutes to stack a tote will gradually increase. I would think that anything that minimizes the handling of wood in your production process would be beneficial so long as it doesn't negatively impact safety and product quality.
Good analysis of your operation. I geek out on numbers also. I get totes for free, I have a slowish box store style splitter with no conveyor, so I stack directly into the tote as I split. I sell in small quantites- delivery only (usually about 1/2 tote) and I like the way stacked wood looks better :D
An idea, if you're interested, maybe capture your woodchips in five gallon buckets to sell to any gardening customers. Clean woodchips are also great for people with pets and livestock that use it for bedding. Curious, are you currently doing anything with the woodchips? Thanks for sharing your videos. :-)
first time seeing your channel, this is one of the best firewood operations i've seen, very jealous! It's awesome. it's clean, efficient, you've got some good equipment. The one thing that makes this operation though is access to plenty of straight dead logs of the right diameter, some like myself aren't so lucky.
Another figure to consider is that those totes are probably going to last you at least 4 or 5 years, so that has a huge impact on those calculations as well making not stacking a no brainer 😀
Adam, why not consider investing in an older, on the cheap, smaller tractor that has enough power to run your yapa pto so that it could stay hooked up all the time? So you can keep the other tractor free for other uses. Financially it could be beneficial.
Just stumbled across your channel. Few questions. Do you sell the stacked tote as a measured volume (1/4 cord)? if so you could fill in the side of the tote & add a 2x4 or something to the top of the tote to increase the loose volume height capacity to compensate & get back to the same volume. obviously bigger but the same weight. What do you calculate your processing time per hour for man & machines? (wood cost above that)? I made a video last year calculating loose vs/ stacked. I have a 1/2 cord basket I use & after re-stacking a few times I'm pretty confident where the loose vs stacked volume is & it saves a ton of time.
After watching you, Out Doors with the Morgans and Back 40 Firewood channels, I have always wondered why you stack the totes. Now you have answered my question and probably that of other watchers. Thanks. Stay safe.
@@savannahrei8674 The wood stacked up has channels the air can flow through when it's not stacked up the air cannot properly flow through the middle so you get a good amount of seasoning on the outside but the middle stays moist which then grows mold and I only say this from experience I have over 500 totes
hi there just a thought we both have sawmills just saw same long boards to increase the size of the totes , i have started doing it and it works well but you do loose some air flow , best to all john
If you had a shaker platform you would find the wood, would stack its self once inside the tote, it might also be a good idea to go by weight if you are not going to stack anymore to ensure your customers get a uniform amount of wood or you could measure the lengths of wood unless they are a set length either weight or length per tote.
Adam, it also might save a little time consumed during the modification process of the IBC totes. If you don't do the cutout it also might prevent the 1 stick from falling out although it might make dumping the totes more challenging.
Hmm, I can't help but ponder whether the additional air contact the firewood in the unstacked baskets has will decrease the drying time. If that is the case, it might decrease the needed storage capacity for the same throughput. Which would save some IBC toats. Could be an interesting experiment to make!
Love the idea. Especially when you figure how many times you will be dumping and filling the same tote. Another idea is to use an inexpensive dust collector to transfer saw dust directly into a trailer or a dedicated walled (1/4 plywood) tote.Harbor freight has a 1HP, 13 gallon unit for $169. Scrap the collection bag, run a 4” hose to collect from the saw outlet and another 4” hose to the collection bin and no more sawdust cleanup by hand.
Great video. Wishing I was doing the same system myself. Pretty sure you arranged the receiving bins into a semicircle to keep the same distance from the semicircle sway of the thrower though we didn't see it in the video. So when are you comin' out to Rancho Cucamonga, San Bernardino County, California, so we can buy your firewood here? 😁
Do you sell, the wood by container/tote or by the cord? Would you charge differently if it’s by stacked tote vs I un-stacked? Also, You know you can make campfire firestarters by combing saw dust, scrap Chaff, steel wool and wax.
Hi Adam, is the speed on the hydraulic motor of the conveyor adjustable? Might be useful if it turns out the conveyor throws them over the basket and you notice that after its been filled up already with some making it too heavy to move by hand. Keep up the good work!
What do you think about including an out take or two after your sign off? Wouldn't have to be every video you post, just now and then an out take or blooper or sneak peek at a later project....?
This was a great video for me at the right time. I'm just getting started in firewood and I've been debating how I want to store the wood for the next year (pallet rows, pallet bins, IBC's) so thank you for this...your math helped me to consider the differences.
Might try the idea of making a small basket or tray from the IBC tote liner. instead of just the lid, cut the liner off at the same height as the saw chip exhaust port; and if you could somehow hook a vacuum source to the tote liner, you could fill it even higher with chips; drawn in by the negative pressure.
