It’s so refreshing to hear someone talk about the difference between subcultures and looks/aesthetics. I’ve been thinking about it since seeing a post recommending “dark academia hobbies.” It felt a bit bleak, like the reverse of subcultures where people with common interests/thinking converge on a look. It makes me a bit sad since aesthetics have less of a basis for a community to form, I think, because the commonality is more shallow. I’m goth and the music-based aspect means I have something in common with other goths beyond our clothing and makeup preferences. Anyway, great video that touches on a lot that goes beyond the fashion world.
that actually is messed up how people are doing things like giving hobbies to the looks, absolutely wild how the hell did we get here and yeah it bugs me a lot too that’s why i talked about it this much, im glad this resonated with you 🙂↕️✊🏾
great video!! as someone who's been a part of the goth and punk scenes for a while this is also something i've noticed big time on social media. people who have never listened to, for example, a sisters of mercy or black flag song in their life or even just MET someone from the subcultures in person now think they know what it means to be part of that group because they saw a "__core" video on tiktok or some amazon search engine optimized item name lmao. it's like a big game of telephone. now does this really affect me? no not really lol. people can wear whatever they want and it's not like i'm gonna see them at concerts or whatever cus they really have no idea where their aesthetic came from. but it is very amusing to see people called goth or emo for just simply wearing a black shirt or whatever also thanks for the subtitles appreciate you for that!
Right, like the whole point of subcultures is being lost due to the soul of it being neglected, ppl don’t care but they don’t have to you know. Basically the bar is in hell
16:30 btw Visual Kei isn’t really revolved around music it is revolved around the look. There is no one sound to Vkei. Visual Kei came from Visually Shocking, so it is based on having very unconventional flashy looks. There are Vkei bands/artists that are pop, goth, punk, metal, traditional, electronic, etc. But the reason why they are considered Vkei is how they present themselves. But personally? I would refer to that type of archive curated getup as Oniikei Gyaruo style or “Older brother guy” style.
I think a sub culture is not bastardised if someone is using it just because they like the looks but they RESPECT it. Like know where it came from, why people from different subcultures are associated with the clothes etc instead of going "it ain't that deep bro it's just clothes" like ffs it ain't "just clothes" for these people
right i agree, that’s why i loved Kidill’s take on skate subculture because you can tell it means a lot to him. Marc Jacobs’ take felt flat empty and tone deaf in my opinion
@@Dolcejeanz marc Jacobs was tasked to make a sellable product which he made based on the trends of that time without proper analysis of the culture surrounding it
I feel that when it comes to clothing designed for specific purpose fashion has always gotten involved. We see this mostly with military influenced collections. I feel fashion should take influence from functional designs but not peoples lifestyles. We see fashion taking influence from people lifestyles all the time in trends such as athletic shoes and jerseys. A great way to develop your own style like skaters and workers is just to buy the most functional pieces for you. Designers however profit off of trends of course so they will make clothes inspired by lifestyles instead of practical designs. Loved the video.
a lot of the brands that create practical/utility based clothing just get grouped into either workwear or gorpcore tbh, but there’s barely any in between between functional clothes and clothes with pure visual appeal, unless it’s like a sweater or something intrinsically designed to keep one warm. And yeah the good looking stuff just sells way more so it’s a no brainer for these brands
I was a raver in the 90s midwest (Massive mag or Drop Bass, anyone?). I loved fashion and had a subscription to both Sassy and Vogue. I still have my Sassy issue with Kurt & Courtney on the cover, as well as my Vogue issue with the Marc Jacobs feature with Kristen McMenamy and Nadja Auermann.
the bastardization of punk culture is the one that gets me. ppl wearing punk clothes and rock punk aesthetics while not being political is so weird to me. without the politics, there would be no punk. i live in bushwick so this is unfortunately an everyday occurrence. poseurs, just galavanting around uninterrupted, smh makes me sick
I met one girl that identified as a Christian conservative but wore a punk aesthetic I shit you not. Makes me sad bc zoomers have never experienced true subculture so they thinks it’s just an outfit
amazing content, the bastardizarion of culture makes me feel gross labeling myself as a punk, a sentiment many people actually in the DIY mysic scene share, especially when balenciaga rips up some clothes, puts some lighter caps on it and sells it for 1500$ as avante grade #punk fashion. glad you could explain this in such an intelligent, succinct manner.
this is SOO UDERRATED i loved the thoughts on this video and i really think everyone should reflect on subcultures and OVERALL collectives in this way!! thank you so much for making my thoughts be seen 💋
Fashion companies often use a "trickle-up" approach to design. They tap into "virtual nostalgia" derived from cultural products, targeting people who haven't experienced a certain era or cultural product (such as a certain type of music). In today's world, where people often feel lonely and are constantly exposed to content, individuals look for identities. They might be dissatisfied with who they are or haven't discovered their true selves yet. Many people believe that changing their appearance, especially their clothing, can change their identity. However, this only gives a temporary and false sense of belonging, and this "manufactured" identity only lasts until something else catches their attention. Brands know this, and then they capitalize on it.
Hence why so many young brands, especially on instagram, target punk or street style or skating as a marketing/brand point because those are the easiest visual cues young people grew up understanding as cool, but a lot of new gens grew up on the internet so they never participated in these cultures, and like you said they can only feel connected through these clothes but not lived experiences. I agree!!!
In a post-modern capitalist society, where the hyperreal surpasses the real, and where capital is always looking for what it can commercialize next, the loss of true sub-culture is a sad but inevitable fact. When certain aesthetics that once rigidly occupied a place within a certain sub-group - be they clothes, music, even holy objects - are deterritorialized from their original context and sold to a mass market, it reduces those sub-groups to mere aesthetics. Just something you can buy and try on, and then drop and forget as soon as the next trend cycle begins. And with our digital lives rapidly subsuming our real ones, it's not a surprise that subcultural fashion has become completely disconnected from any sense of place or community, as it's now widely accessible to all. "Costumes instead of uniforms" indeed.
this is so well said!! totally right that capitalism has killed subcultures because it’s simply in the name, big companies “capitalising” on the passion of humanity…i’m not sure how many things will ever be sacred again
loved the video! subculture research is one of my special interests - so i‘d like to add some context :) technically, „posers“ have always been present in different scenes, even though the nature of their actions has changed significantly - for instance, in early (-ish) days of punk, it was middle class kids emulating what they deemed a „marginalized lifestyle“, both class and race wise, rather than mode of dress. a good read regarding this would be L.A.'s "White Minority": Punk and the Contradictions of Self-Marginalization by Daniel Traber (DOI:10.1353/CUL.2001.0040)
Great video !!! I really like how chill it is too Honestly the thing that appeals to me most about any subculture is the community aspect of it,, kind of sad to see the meanings behind the looks get more shallow :( I wonder how people will express their mindsets or hardships in society now if there's less of a focus on fashion..?
I know alt subcultures have suffered from this a lot, I do also find it funny how the clothing styles nowadays have gotten so mixed up, I remember until a few years ago that baggy clothes meant you were some guy who was locked up for too long, probably into hood sh and gangster rap, now you get bling shirts, with baggy pants and goth boots with painted nails, the music tastes are also all mixed up now, I remember how goths and other subcultures called us names and thought rap was trash lol, there's no real set identity behind them nowadays, with only some people keeping the true spirit of those subcultures alive and still offering a space to find likeminded people. I still haven't suffered from this too much thankfully, chicano culture is popular but still hasn't reached that mainstream appeal yet (although maybe with its rise in popularity in asia it will probably start popping up sooner or later too, just like baggy clothes or certain styles that came back after asian countries started popularizing them)
yeah a lot of the silhouettes like baggy pants and tops got associated heavy with multiple different styles like baggy ripped with rap, black baggy with some hardware on them with goth/emo/rave, scene etc. So that’s why many people just go for big clothes then follow the easy color coding, accessorise a bit and BOOM complete. And unfortunately i think every culture will get exploited at some point so until that day brace yourself🫠🖤
Love the vid ❤ but you definitely gotta look into the Gyaru subculture. There’s a lot of history and culture there if you look into it. It’s more than an aesthetic like coquette, it’s a lifestyle, spirit, and has a history (a subversion similar to punk in a lot of ways) gyarus have. Would love to hear your thoughts 💗
@@Dolcejeanz 'Gyaru' doesn't have a look or aesthetic associated with it. When it gets turned into a set of tropes or is fetishized for video game and anime character designs its tends to look wrong because no actual teenage Gyaru is likely to be wearing something popular 5-10 years ago. Gyaru basically only exist in the tension between the conformist and consumerist sides of Japanese society. A lot of Gyaru behaviour is just normal middle class teenage girl behavior in other highly consumerist societies. Though a lot of gyaru fashion is foreign influenced and there are similar stigmatised groups in English speaking countries (like Valley Girls in California or Essex Girls in England). Tanned skin (tied to a rebellion against colourism in east asian beauty standards) was more connected to Ganguro which is sometimes seen as a subculture within gyaru, but it isn't unique to it.
Woah under 1,000 subs? You got one more, im a big fashion fan and this is a really well thought out video. I have always been a part of the punk scene where im from, as a kid it felt like the only place to go. Its always been the community first and the “look” always had practical aspects - you can dance hard, you can repair your clothes, you dont worry about your boots getting dirty. I loved the look bc as a queer youth, it was very androgynous and customizable. Its sometimes frustrating when these tiktok kids forget that you might want to wear something for more than 15 seconds (and frustrating when fashion designers rip off poor ppl haha)
I think it’s so cool that you were active the scene back when it was so genuine and new and i can’ only imagine your frustration seeing the wrongful revision of your youth in real time😅
I think what happened is that everyone saw Vivienne Westwood's success and thought "I want that" but hers was organic. She started as trash, she rose up to high fashion. Not the other way around. And you're completely wrong about Gyaru, there's people ON THIS PLATFORM explaining this stuff. Come on, pal...do better research. If you're not in it, make sure you double check before you just say stuff. It's embarrassing.
yeah that’s my bad, i have been hearing a lot of requests to actually do a better deeper more insightful dive into gyaru so i will be looking into that more for a future video…
I focused on grunge first because there’s a direct collection showing the broader problem on a concentrated level. Punk would be extremely difficult to pin down, navigate and then expound on😅
you cannot buy cool.Unyet Capitalism manages to eat everything it touches When I was a biker I wore motorbike clothing for purely practical reasons but it also represented a subculture.
Packers jersey so is funny to me, I saw a girl wearing one in Warsaw and I know she has no idea how hated they are 😂 I'll give you a pass tho it is a cool color
good shit man!! i recommend when u get yr hands on some funds to put towards yr channel, a decent studio microphone would do you good. Very enjoyable video and it'd be even better if we can hear yr voice in a quality as high as the rest of the content :)
Yeah honestly i do really need to upgrade but im not sure what really good one i could get for like $150 that would work with my iphone that i use to record :p
Odd story: i once had a short lived but intense fascination with k-pop (i was undergoing a drug trial-it did weird things to my concentration). One of the things i found semi-interesting is how they use aesthetics as throwaway tools. It’s like the final boss of fast fashion meets couture: every era needs its new aesthetic. So you’ll have 19 year old pretty boys wearing bdsm harnesses over white shirts on stage in a puritanical culture where even the mention of relationships is taboo, and the whole thing feels like it’s happening in bizarro world. Meanwhile, when I stepped outside, it was into the neighbourhood i grew up in, which we’ve now been priced out of, which was once the lesbian neighbourhood during the 80s through the early 2000s. Even though the actual lesbians had been priced out and moved on long ago people were still dressing gay. It was that inflection point in the mid 2010s where you couldn’t tell who was actually gay anymore because the fashion had started to bleed into the mainstream. And i remember thinking-in 20, 30 years, this is what kpop idols will be wearing. No bras, grungy pencil skirts and leopard print tops and chunky shoes, belly fat showing and all that jazz. It’ll be “prettied” up probably, for the tv, but that’s how culture groes. Those who have nothing create it, and those who have everything profit off of it.
Actually, i want to add something cause i didn’t get it quite right: i think a lot of subculture fashion is about incorporating and accommodating for imperfections, or whatever the mainstream decides is an “imperfection:” so in the case of lesbian fashion it would be the belly fat, the saggy boobs and body hair. The amount of focus put on natural hair in the black power movement is another example i can think of off the top of my head. The raggediness of grunge, the functionality of work clothes, and the DIY aesthetic that goes with all of them because that’s the most fundamental thing about not having money: you get creative. But beyond necessity, all these elements aren’t just incorporated, they’re given extra emphasis as a political power stance. It’s to say “look, all of those things you’re ashamed of? I’m not. This is who I am.” And i think there’s a spectrum in fashion that goes, on the one hand, from the original expression of these elements in subcultures as born of necessity and pride, and then in couture settings they become fetishized: they’re divorced from their original context and the focus is put entirely on the symbol itself (the aesthetic), rather than what it is supposed to represent (defiance). And when it gets recycled even further into commercial fashion, it’s further purged of any association with whatever “imperfection” it was originally supposed to showcase. Kpop itself is so obsessed with the obliteration of imperfection through any kind of artificial means, so if the gay subculture fashion ever does end up on those stages, by then it will have been purged of any sign of saggy boob or belly fat. Because the whole point of capitalism is turning any kind of symbol of defiance into a commodity that can make money.
the Kpop thing is very interesting as someone who isn’t very well versed in that world. I remember a darkskin artist i believe that i saw on twitter around five or six years ago who made a corset out of two cut up new balance sneakers with, of course, the actual laces being used, and then i saw kpop stars doing it less than two years later. That women was trying to express herself with what she had of course and then like you said it got prettied up for television. it’s not as deep as the lesbian appropriation you spoke of but i saw something very similar. as for the high fashion appropriation i agree because as long as your taking any form of expression of a somewhat othered or shunned or “ugly” subset of a country’s population and putting it on a runway the feel will automatically be lost without question. Because whether or not a brand has plans to make clothes to be sold or actual art, as long as the clothing WILL be sold then that could never be as genuine as the people actually living it in the real world. The Kpop bastardisation seems like the final step towards really removing the feel, and i agree with your view as well.
@@Dolcejeanz Yeah because they use brass instead of stainless steal so it tarnishes really easily! I have the bear necklace that says best friends on it and it's tarnishing!
Finally, someone made a video on subcultures in fashion with new and interesting things to say!! I love how you included differing examples from high fashion, social media, etc. I'm gonna watch some more of your videos after this one :D On 17:30 - I absolutely agree. I've done research on the ways subcultures have begun, changed, "died" etc. When it becomes commercialised, often through the fast fashion industry, that subculture is toast. Suddenly people want to look like they're in the subculture, without actually listening to the music/politics/hobbies that created it in the first place. The subculture is "dead"- not actually gone, rather bastardised to the point that the community breaks apart. This has happened with punk, goth, all sorts of subcultures.
Please look more into gyaru, it definitely stands as a subculture on its own beyond the looks coquette is definitely a recent internet classified aesthetic
@@Dolcejeanz I watched this video on the phone and I really appreciate the take that you had on it but I really wonder where is the line drawn in artistic interpretation or references and bastardization?
I suppose it’s really subjective and case to case but for me it would be down to execution, visible sincerity and consideration along with a designer’s explanation as to what exactly they were trying to achieve, how accurate the clothes actually were, price point, etc
Say i wanted to do patch work denim for my brand as someone who has been in the hardcore punk scene and actively listen to the music and subscribe to the views and i make a pair of patch work denim as a type of starting point blueprint for thoes who love my brand but i encourage them to add their own patches and make it unique to them and let it tell their story am i still part of the issue?
from an ex fashion student and currently working in the fashion/ social media space, mad respect for ur video, knowledge and explanation of these ideas, cant agree enough with it all, especially the impact of SM- subcultures are so beautiful & important to be respected for why they were created & i loved ur inclusion of tasteful display of it in the fashion industry 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼 overall 10/10, keep creating man 🎉
i describe myself as punk and goth. bc these are music based, lifestyle based, and especially MORAL based. i dont dress this way most of the time. but still in the community, we are debating how one should dress to be in the community instead of the fact that there are tons of racist and homophobic punks... edit: if you want to see commodification of subculture in real time, look at the decline of FRUiTs magazine. it became less about dressing how you want to dressing and hanging around akihabara just to get a photo taken
I never really bothered to look at fruits too much because i didn’t want my style being TOO influenced by others, but i’ve heard this sentiment before for sure. And yeah i wanted to talk about the moral part a lot actually cuz it’s like if you ask “punk/goth” kids about politics and capitalism and establishments nowadays they’ll say they dgaf which is…bad lol. And yeah those racist and homophobia problems definitely also should be the priority
I'm 15 and fell into skating after being homeless. when u said we wore the clothes for the function you weren't lying, honestly I dress baggy now for the looks but when I was homeless I wore baggy for warmth and I could wear more layers under. Then I see people who dress like me with no understanding of why we dress this way. iykyk🤷♀️
yeah i don’t blame people for not knowing the origins of certain styles because they don’t really have to and they may have their own reasons as well, but i hope you’re doing better now for real, glad you enjoyed the vid bro🙌🏿🖤
This also happened to punk in the 80s thanks to designers like Vivienne Westwood and Pat McGrath, this is such an important topic I'm glad to see this video!
Vivienne westwood especially, but i don’t think she was really a problem seeing how new the movement was, and she was also intertwined with real driving forces of the movement like dressing the sex pistols, and she actively shared the same sentiments as punks on the street🤔
I always love your videos but i disagree with Skateboarding being a subculture. It's a sport. There are lots of subcultures that love to skate but skating in it's self is'nt a subculture. Thats like saying basketball is a subculture because groups of people love to play in the parks all day and night even tho they never made it to the NBA.
Two things can be true, skateboarding operates on the olympic level just as much as me and my friends street skating because that’s where it started. And basketball isn’t really comparable as that’s a million times bigger than skating, and even so there’s definitely specific types of basketball groups out there that could probably be considered a subculture based off how they move. I feel like this is just an ahistorical thing to say completely erasing the origins of skateboarding, saying skating is a subculture is just crazy i’m sorry
great video, interesting topic and truly engaging delivery. i really liked the face you pulled after pronouncing the jp designer's name haha. hope your channel explodes
Totally agree. Also the copy and paste Pinterest aesthetics are sad not just because of consumerism and misunderstanding of subculture but also because it fundamentally goes against the self expression part of subculture. It’s all people who don’t fit in and go against social norms not to be quirky but because that’s who they are. You don’t need a to build a perfect idea of subculture but instead form your own and you’ll understand what you want and what you like. Most subcultures bleed into each other and especially in real life, most subculture spaces mix together because if their size and shared ideologies and it’s a chronically online take to separate them so much that it causes drama. We are all weird people usually in some form of marginalised community, why create all these divisions?
I didn’t think about the division aspect of it this much, but i believe it might be because of how humans naturally like to compartmentalise things, like having everything pinned down. But you’re so right, subcultures always bleed into each other
searching up about subcultures has giving me both headaches and clarity. im young so im still coming into stuff i like and why i like it. ive grown up on rock n roll music from guitar hero and whatever my uncle would put on the radio, and i went through like a punk and goth "phase" ( im still exploring it ) when i was in high school. but im just at the point where i like a lot of music and i like the style so im prob a poser i guess. p.s great video. very well made.
i think the poser label comes more from how pretentious and fraudulent you are about it, if you really do like it then you’re not faking anything at all🙂↕️🙂↕️Thank you!
Came from your comment in Fashion Roadman stream. Man, you are on point. One thing I think about is one time i wanted to buy a boot and i was trying to make my wardrobe more nightime oriented, all the boots I find only typing boots were daytime or very feminine. The punk idea came in my mind and i searched "punk boots" or "doc martens boots", but seeing the ornamented boots and searching using the term only made me feel artificial and fake. In the end I use the punk sensibility, because they used Doc boots because it was a cheap workwear from the time for the coal mines, so I needed a workwear boot which were agressive, so I entered a military/police equipment store and buy one. And it was the best thing, because the boots are comfortable, because they were created to withstand a day of work and they are incredibly cheap.
That nonsense I said was just another thought I had about people losing track of why the styles of each subculture exist. Using the example I gave, if I bought a pair of boots using the term "punk" in the search, it would be hypocritical, because the way punks dressed made sense for the era they were in, but by recontextualizing "punk" when buying the reason became more authentic
all of this is so real, i literally avoid so many clothes because im not pretentious enough to try and label myself as a part of one of these subcultures, i just try and achieve the same emotional expression in more personal choices rather than where some type of trophy piece meant to scream “hey look at me! i’m ____!” glad you commented😀🤞🏾
RU-vid's algorithm is doing the right thing by leading me to your channel! So glad this was recommended to me and proud to claim my "here before 50k subs" ticket :D
