Subgenre Wars 5 - Crust Vs Anarcho Punk 

Thanks Mid, that means a lot.

Yeah, I think that the clear missing piece of my little ramble is that crust sprung out of the Anarcho scene. That's pretty clear, I just had this sort of dichotomy framework in mind for the video, as I did with the previous ones from this series. I probably should have spent a little time discussing that, but hell, why not have someone that was a key player in the scene lay it all out in the comments instead? Haha. Thanks for all of the band personnel details too. I know that I probably read a bunch of that in several Ian Glasper books, but I clearly didn't recall any of it while shooting this. It's always cool to check out "family trees" of how different bands overlapped, shared members, etc. I'm going to check out this cover now, and look for Bait stuff online. Cheers!

Thanks! Yeah, it can't be understated just how important Discharge was to almost everything loud from 1980 onwards.

I knew that last edit was a good idea. That band was far too important to leave out of the conversation.

I've definitely heard Skitsystem, Disfear and and Driller Killer referred to as both crust and d-beat.

@GroundZeroSalem Awesome, so I'm cool then. Love this channel Pat, always choc full of info.

Thanks for taking the time to comment, Nate. I agree, the last few Tragedy records kind of lost the magic of the first 3 LPs, and the "Can We Call This Life?" 7" (my personal favorite), but it's a pretty high standard to uphold. It is true, there's a certain thing about Crass and Conflict that feels like a barrier to entry, but I still dig a handful of tunes. I just took a gander at your channel. It looks super interesting, subbed.

Thanks as always Johnny!

@@GroundZeroSalem I NEED TO PICK UP THAT SUBHUMANS BOOK, I KEEP FORGETTING ABOUT IT. DEFINITELY ONE OF THE BEST PUNK BANDS EVER.

Thanks!

Yes... yes it is... also check out his label/distro!

All great stuffs.

There should be links to just about everything. Enjoy!

@@GroundZeroSalem much appreciated as always. Been watching since 2017. By far my favorite music collector channel. Been put on to so much great stuff.

@noheroes8626 Thanks for your long time support.

Yeah, I think during the pre broad and era, a lot what certain labels meant was regional. Where was this taking place?

Ontario, Quebec - in Canada, though I remember people getting excited for a show from some New York Crust bands. The show was outdoors, under an underpass and all I remember was how serious (hardcore, even) everyone seemed. I think Leftover Crack played, but that might have been another time. I wasn't even thinking of recorded bands though, just the local scene using 'Crust' to define bands who were dedicated street kids.@@GroundZeroSalem

Yeah man. Time Flies..but Aeroplanes crash.

Thank YOU for being my muse.

Anytime!!!

No Security also definitely ruled. Yeah, gotta mention Conflict. I saw them once in Boston, and their set was mostly really hard dub Reggae. It really threw everyone for a loop. Haha.

@@GroundZeroSalem I bet that was awesome. Reggae with the punky attitude and vocals is so good. Culture shock are the masters at that. So good. Onwards and Upwards!

Thanks, I'm glad you enjoyed it!

Oh man, Crass, The Chisel and The Stranglers? That's a gig.

Sub humans,UK Subs,To Robbinson and Sham 69 are on the first night. Crass are on after Anti nowere league on the friday. Discharge are also there.

Glad you liked it!

Ooh, good call on the Amorphis comparison. Yeah, Amebix was a huge influence on Winter. LFD is my favorite Colohan band, but the Swarm is a close second, with Ruination coming in third.

@@GroundZeroSalem “God’s Little Acre” on Parasitic Skies is a sick track, I won’t argue there. But the LFD set tacked on the end (of the CD) is the main attraction for me. Their live fury can barely be contained. Chris’s agitation during the set is classic- no wonder it translated so well to record. I listened to that Kings Of Punk pod with Mike. Good stuff! I’ll use Mike’s metaphor and say I didn’t have too many horses in the race, but Expression Of Pain and DA’s Ulterior are HUGE. I’ve never heard anyone else list Ulterior as their favorite DA- so I was pretty amped. Like FETO on poppers to me.

@@ajh229 Duude, I haven't listened to Discordance Axis since the early 00s. I need to fix that.

Unfortunately, with every audio clip uploaded, there is a chance of a copyright claim and demonatization. I make a negligible amount of money on this channel, but even partial demonitization means that my videos get a lot less push. Since I put a fair amount of effort into these, I want as many people to see them as possible. I've used audio clips before and been shocked about how the smallest and most DIY bands have copywrited music, probably through streaming services. This is why include links to most of what I talk about in the description of every video. I'm even cautious about the intros that I use, and do a quick "test upload" to make sure nothing will get flagged.

You are welcome.

I don't think anyone is hotly contesting anything here, just more of a curious exploration over how genre's mutate over the decades.

@GroundZeroSalem not meant to say you were hottly contesting. Think you did a great job covering the subjects. I thoroughly enjoy your takes cheers dude and have a good weekend.

Always good to get positive feedback from an academic! Thanks Alan!

Yeah, I think that you can't really put the toothpaste back in the tube as far as what Crust is considered in a modern context. I completely think GISM were their own thing. There's some great Japanese crust (SDS, Life?, Asbestos, etc) but I think GISM are definitely in a league of their own.

Love Aus Rotten, but I think their sound is way more straightforward HC Punk like Crucifix. TBH, I don't really hear much of a classic Anarcho kind of influence in Dystopia, although I'm absolutely sure Dino and crew loved that stuff. Other than Rudimentary Peni, of course, they were definitely influenced by them.

Oh man, I wish. Logistically impossible, I'm afraid.

I've been hearing about Resistant Culture for a long time, I'll check them out.

@@GroundZeroSalem they bring in some native American influences into their music which makes them unique. I also feel like each song has its own identity, which is rare in extreme music

@@Gregbaltzer That's definitely true. I'm always looking for bands that can achieve that.

@@GroundZeroSalem check out the album All One Struggle then check out Welcome to Reality. Jesse Pintado and Pete Sandoval were both in the band at one point. I one ordered a Hoodie from their band camp and they sold out so they sent me an alternate design, a free shit, patches, and stickers. The vocalist messaged me and was a proper dude. Earned my eternal support

@@Gregbaltzer That's dope. I'll check em out. Sounds petty, but I was always turned off by their cover art. Just goes to show, don't judge a book, you know the rest.

Thanks for watching! It's so damn cool when people who were around for this stuff chime in, especially when it's to set me straight about certain things, haha. Now that mention it, I seem to remember photos of Concrete Sox and Ripcord wearing Metallica shirts. Maybe it was more of an American phenomenon, especially in NYC, people who were metalheads and then became skins shortly thereafter, and often didnt admit their mulletted past. There's a notorious story about Tommy Carrol from Straight Ahead heckling Kirk Hammett when he jumped on stage to rip a few solos with the Crumbsuckers. I was fortunate to catch Misery and Extinction of Mankind when they toured on that split in Boston. Killer art! I want to say that I saw Extinction of Mankind in the UK at the Nottingham punx picnic too, buuuut my memories are a bit hazy there. Thanks for stopping by!

@@GroundZeroSalem Yes, that was a great tour - awesome you got to see them in Boston. I saw them in Denver on that same tour. Nottingham was a real stronghold - I lived there with people from Concrete Sox and Substandard back in the late 80s. Their punx picnics were always great fun. I was also good mates with Extreme Noise Terror.

Oh, I definitely will at some point. I love a lot of Japanese HC, but I'm not super knowledgeable about it.

Gun to my head to pick one, The Massacre might be my favorite Exploited record. It's just Vicious. Horror Epics would be my other choice, just for their unique take on post-punk on a few tracks. I do like DB4D, but the kinda muddy production puts it just notch below the others. Thanks for commenting! Love Wattie & Co!

@@GroundZeroSalem yessir.. I have to totally agree ... Horror has such a different thing going on, it and Troops of Tomorrow has a distinguished sound .. and then the massacre, a brutal attack for sure, has that heavy repetitive grind goin on? .. Naturally, their later stuff is just very tight and up front.

I love the British pronunciation of "Secretary"

Oh man, I love G-Anx. I talked about them a few updates back. I dig Counterblast too. There was a crusty / drunk punk divide in the States too, but it was more between super street punker kids that were into bands like the Unseen and the Casualties, who also loved all of that classic UK82 stuff, and a lot of dirty train hopper / squatter types (or at least people that were trying to ape that style) that were into stuff like Dystopia and Filth. I'm painting with very broad strokes here though, it's a massive country and things were pretty different with varying subcultures from state to state. The whole kinda "Disrocker" type of thing didn't really seem to gel until the very late 90s / early 00s when you'd start seeing the shoelace headbands and Scandinavian and Japanese HC worship as much. Fittingly enough, it seemed like a lot of people from the Street Punk and Crusty camps got funnelled into that when it started blowing up. At least where I was living. I was always kind of fuzzy on the whole Mängel thing. I've heard it referencing a lot of early Swedish HC like Mob 47, but in modern terms it seems like it means a lot of heavier, metallic bands like Svaveldioxid. Curious to hear your thoughts on that subgenre. Thanks!

@@GroundZeroSalem Oh yeah Counterblast are fucking great too! G-Anx had such a unique sound, more on the fastcore spectrum than say Amebix of course, but with the same gloom to them as the british bands...great to se them getting som love. Interesting to hear how things evolved in the states, I think the street punk thing is also something that never quite caught on here as it was mostly absorbed by d-beat/raw punk. Although there were a few bands in the 80s like the Bristles that were close to the UK82 bands. Yeah the "disrocker" thing coming into style in the states in the late 90s was my impression from overseas too, do you have any recollection of how that came to be? I assumed it was due to bands like Disclose touring the US, would be interesting to hear your perspective on it. I remember some great US bands like No Fucker coming out of that era. As for "mangel" here it's pretty much an all-encompassing word for any kind of fast, crushing hardcore, never really thought of it as a subgenre. Didn't even know the term had travelled outside of Scandinavia, haha. But I would say overall the d-beat sound ever since the 90s has taken a turn for the more metallic rather than pure hardcore as in the 80s.

@@carl6345 Yeah, that whole Disrocker thing just evolved out of "street punk" kind of fizzling at the end of the 90s and loads of kids discovering Japanese and Scandinavian HC via a few popular US bands touting their influence. 9 Shocks Terror was a big one (name taken from a Lip Cream song, covered the Stalin, etc) and Tragedy (proudly wore the influence of many Japanese and Scandinavian bands on their sleeves)....more and more Japanese bands started playing the States in the early 00s too, often playing huge festivals like Chaos in Tejas. I think a lot of people (myself included) were completely floored by Totallitar's performance at Pointless fest in Philly in O3. So yeah, probably a bunch of varying reasons, haha.

…and Ice

Haha. We did it folks.

They're both.

​@@GroundZeroSalem I think that they've had massive anti war flow. 'Indochina"and this pull ups! Another cup of tea about them was their vocalist's asian ethnicity if i'm not mistaken-was racing bike in circuss or something like that. You remaind me of them🎉

Thanks Hu, I am aware of that particular counter culture in the UK, the "Cruster Traveller" types...seems to date back to the era of the hippie days and Stonehenge festivals, no? Pretty interesting. That whole thing seems to be separate from the Irish travelers, as depicted in the Movie Snatch. We don't really have anything like that here. There are nomadic Hobo kids that originated out of "crust punk" that hop trains (oogles) that came out of the Americanization of the whole crust Punk thing, but they've earned a bad rep as willingly homeless violent drunks that often come from affluent backgrounds. This isn't always true, but the stereotype is definitely rooted in reality. That subculture has seemed to have really declined in the past 15 years or so. There are some hippie types that follow around the post Grateful Dead groups and Phish and the like around the country, but they're mostly normal people that take vacation time to go on these jaunts. And like drugs. Usually.

@@GroundZeroSalem That's right. If you goto Stonehenge, don't pay to go in. You take a trip down The Drove and you get the same view for free. You can also meet the van dwellers who have lived there for over 40 years. An incredible place and something I encourage, because if we don't use it, it will be taken from us. Fight the good fight innit. Yeah, it's slightly different and many people mix the cultures up. People thought The Ozrics where a hippie band, but in reality, they're a space rock band living as travellers. It's just convenient of being in a band on tour. I watch a lot of videos about Slabbers that seems like an very wild lifestyle. I can't say it's American specific, lots of people from lots of places there. As long as people are safe, free of fear and getting along, that's a good thing. I'm surprised more crust doesn't come from the slabs, seems a place for some insane metal music to be made, on drugs if you like, or not. In Wales, especially the cities on certain days, the people the city doesn't want visters to see are all moved to one area. It's messed up, our piss poor education, poverty and lack of support make these places quite desperate. It could so easily be sorted. Stay crusty everyone :-)

That's a really good way to break up the Anarcho bands, haha. Yeah, I've read almost all of the Glasper books at this point. I wish I could find a copy of Trapped in a Scene for a reasonable price. That mid to late 80s UKHC is my favorite stuff.

Can't say that I have, but I think stuff like that is cool. I was exposed to Ex-Cathedra and Striknien DC in the early 2ks when I was in England / Ireland and Scotland and I really enjoyed those groups.

MITB helped coin the term Poweviolence, and Spazz proudly claimed the title. Charles Bronson was a different story.

@GroundZeroSalem I think-mk ultra,enemy soil, damad grief,13.dystopia-were/are all "different cuppas from the same brew". But it's personal opinion obviously.

I haven't listened to Bone Awl in ages. I liked a few of their records when they were around. Ildjarn and Akitsa I haven't really listened to much at all. It isn't exactly the same type of BM meets punk, but I like Iskra, Devil Master and Zorn.

Yeah, same. I don't care what your politics are, don't go threatening people with knives at a venue.

Partial points for at least showing up instead of just talking smack on Twix.

I certainly respect Amebix's influence from their heyday almost from over 35 years ago, but people change. If Dick Lucas, Jello Biafra, Dave Dictor, etc. released a new record openly inspired by, and referencing an extremely controversial author that questioned certain events that occurred during WW2, I don't think the situation would be any different in regards to the reception of that hypothetical record. Relapse is a huge label that has been openly progressive for decades. They released several compilations entitled "This Comp Kills Fascists"...I am not surprised that they reacted in the way that they did. When was the last time they released anything by AC? The Morbid Florist EP in 1993? Seth wasn't even full on Edgelord until the Earache era with all of the hyper offensive song titles and whatnot. That label has changed hands many times since then. Furthermore, I'm not a huge AC fan, but this is a fairly apples and oranges comparison. Completely nihilistic, offensive for the sake of being offensive AC song titles are pretty different from platforming Gerard Menuhin in a completely sincere manner.

@@GroundZeroSalem 👍🏻

The record isn’t hypothetical. It was released re-recorded to circumvent relapses lack of testicular fortitude. I also have the original mix given to me by a band member ( that ones better ) . Don’t believe everything you read. Ps a.c. Also put out a double cd of a lot of the early singles and splits . If that was a label with values wouldn’t they knowing what he turned into ban those as well ? Same thing really @@GroundZeroSalem

@johngilljr8149 Nope, not really. Not at all. Comparing the two is still a false equivalency. Don't believe everything I read? Are you saying that the Tau Cross record DIDN'T thank Gerard Menuhin, a well-known Holocaust Denier? Are you also suggesting the Rob didn't double down and defend said author a few weeks later? It certainly looks like that was the case. Was it a big psy-op? A big conspiracy? None of that ever happened? Because that was the reason he was dropped. I've noticed a few elder statesmen of the punk and the HC scene falling into far right conspiracy nonsense in the past decade or so. I don't know if it's the effects of drug abuse, trauma, early onset dementia or whatever else, but when someone pushes the same misinfo and agenda that Stormfront or Nick Fuentes would agree with, I don't see why anyone would be surprised with the results. Also, not that it matters, because as I already stated edgelord offensiveness isn't the same thing as platforming and defending a known holocaust denier, but it looks like that compilation that you are talking about was released by Relapse in 2011. It's all of their early noisecore stuff, most of which does not even appear to have song titles. There's a pretty good chance that a very different crew of people running the ship when The Tau Cross thing went down eight years later. Post 2016, especially after the Unite the Right rally, things really heated up and got increasingly more polarized here in the US, with a huge spike in far-right activity and public sentiment. I'm not surprised that one of the biggest metal labels, which is a business, decided to err on the side of caution. Or hey, maybe they just Googled Menuhin's name and decided that his idea's were repugnant and wanted nothing to do with a record with him on the thanks list. As far as I understand it, the record was yanked before it's release, so it's not as if they were bending to public outcry or something along those lines. Stig, the Baron's own brother, seemed pretty unhappy with these developments, stating that he wouldn't touch anything by the author with a shit covered stick, and that he was pretty disappointed in Rob. It does seem that they have been estranged for some time.

Well then I guess you don’t own any darkthrone (self proclaimed true Norwegian aryan black metal ) , bad brains ( well documented hatred for gays), exploited ,and Sex Pistols for wearing swastakas a lot . And don’t give me that fashion for the time bull. Just because the band rips people like you give them a pass . Pathetic @@GroundZeroSalem

Rudimentary Peni are pretty much undeniable. I would say the designation of the term "Subscene" is fairly accurate. However, I'd say that it's treated more like a Subgenre nowadays with bands since the 90s, replicating the marching band style beats and the wirey guitar tone from Crass and the like.

Whomp whomp.

A) What does that have to do with anything? B) So can every Subculture.

@GroundZeroSalem yeah you are right there a pricks in all picks

Thanks, glad you enjoyed it. I need more Instigators stuff. Killer band.