Hey man, thanks for these videos. They really helped me a lot. I’m getting ready to four link my 78 Chevy Dooley right now and these are amazing videos.
I have to say before watching these I was so scared to touch a 4 link because I never understood them, I was just gonna throw some caltracs on my leafs and call her a day, but after watching this series I’m getting so hyped at the possibilities I could do with my 84 S10. Thanks for making all these man
There’s something to be said about the simplicity of Caltracs. Sometimes I wonder if life would be better not having to deal with leaky air springs, sticking valves and failing switches. I can’t wait to see what you create! 🙌
@@GarageFab haha well that’s exactly it, I wasn’t exactly sold on if I wanted to go bags just because you sacrifice a lot of performance with it and I want my truck to be a street truck once it’s all done, but my buddy with bags on his s10 told me about 4 links and I watched your series and now I see I can have the best of both worlds if I wanted it. And best part is that I could even do the 4 link with coilovers and then later down the road make the jump into bags. Definitely a lot of possibilities while I figure out a plan for what I’m doing to my truck🤘
Truth! That would be a fun creative challenge to maybe create some sort of interchangable mounting system where you can remove coil overs and install bags, and then back again. 🤔
Not yet. I’m starting up on front suspension shortly and will get into IRS during the next project. You might be waiting a little while though unfortunately.
Hi, thanks for share your Knowledge, i have a question how i know the length of the link bars? i have a M.M and i want to do the same thing but whit coilovers.
Hello is it possible to contact you by email so i can show you my problem love your videos and sure do understand all what you say but i got a el camino 1982 on bags and want to du the triangulaire one but not sure were i can hook up for the triangle
It depends on what you’re using the vehicle for. A torque arm would perform better than a 4 link on a drag strip. On an Autocross course? I predict it could be set up to perform just as well if not better. On a bagged vehicle? I wouldn’t recommend it.
One of the most underrated content creators and fabricators!! This series has been super helpful on my journey to update the suspension on my 77 Datsun 620. Can’t wait for more info! So glad I found your channel. 🤘🤘🤘
i bought it, it looks like it'll make an excellent project! conversion is gonna be a loooong ways in the future, i gotta get it running and driving first!
A video on single suicide hinges or really them in general ? I have a crown vic that I want to make a single wide hinge as I can't lose any wheel well room. Seen lifted (donks is what people who lift such vehicles call them which funny enough is not a donk anyway) crown vics with them because well they don't utilize the wheel well and I'm laying out. Thanks for the in depth learning videos and entertainment.
Interesting you ask… I’ve been kicking around the idea of making a few episodes on projects I’ve done in the past. One of them was rear suicide doors on a bagged Lexus LS430. You can check out the project on Instagram @GarageFab if you haven’t already. I have footage from the entire build but I filmed it before I knew anything about filming. It’s on a crappy camera, with bad lighting and worse audio. I considered a narration over the old video. I’ll start working on it! Thank you, Brother! 🙏
@@GarageFab you featured it on this video that's why I made a comment. I have a parts car that i was going to try to figure something similar to what you had shown. I will certainly go take a look at it on ig. Understandable about the camera, the unique factor outweighs the terrible footage 😂 all caught up on your videos, now I need a truck to build 😂
Absolutely! There’s no sense in bending a bar just to bend a bar. It’s ridiculously easy to bend a bar once the bend has already been started so it needs to be more stout, which usually equates to heavier. So the reason for bending in the first place needs to be of greater importance than the side effects a bent bar creates. I’m concerned I didn’t use the word “bend” enough in that reply.
I imagine! I’d think the basics pretty much cross over but the things I stress as “important” like the parallel 4 link is definitely air suspension only. I hope to eventually explain the basics it well enough that people can figure stuff out on their own.
@garagefab so I’ve been watching this over and over and I thinking of doing a 4 link on the hardbody. Would it be okay if only one link was bent to go around the fuel tank? Also, they would both need to be same length as the bottoms to keep pinion angle the same? So would it be better to design the tops then make the bottoms be the same size, as I have more room on the bottom to make them longer or shorter..
Hey Dina! Yeah that would be the perfect use for a wonky link. Because a bent link behaves the same way as a straight one, it doesn’t matter if you only have one bent link or three. You’re correct about the equal length upper and lower links, but when we talk about bent or angled bars, I like to instead focus on the distance between the front and rear link bar tabs. (Same thing, just worded differently.) That’s important though because a bar that curves around a fuel tank would technically be “longer” even though the link bar tabs are the same distance apart. Perhaps another way of picturing it, is creating your suspension with all straight links with the tank removed, and then simply rebuilding the one link near your tank to fit the tabs that you already installed. Hopefully that didn’t make it even more confusing. 😆
@GarageFab definitely not in your later videos, and definitely not as bad as other channels. It wasn't really a critique, just letting you know that I like the way you tee up your next video and your series. I hear shorts are key nowadays. but I think I found your channel because I watch a lot of makers, and I've been looking into upgrading my 05 colorado and wrangler suspension.
Who the f*** asked you what you liked? How dare you try to dictate how this man runs his channel? You're just one sub. Don't let it go to your head. Tune in, STFU n learn. You're welcome.
hi, I'm building a Suzuki samurai with Nissan patrol axles VW golf TDI 1.9 engine with a Toyota land cruiser transmission I want to build a 4-link suspension but got too much information and am now confused any plans or advice on the length of tubes positioning of brackets ect would be much appreciated.
Ah! You caught my attention with your Frankenstein build. Those are my favorite. My first truck ended up having factory doors and that’s pretty much it. Everything was either modified or replaced with another cars parts. Let me know specifically what you need, Burhan, and I’ll do my best to help guide you through it. What type of suspension will you be using? Coil overs?
@@GarageFab Hi thank you for the reply. I don't know where to start should I install the engine with a transmission first then center the axles and then start on the 4-link build. should my link tubing be the same length? about suspension I’m thinking coil overs but don’t know what length. just guide me what is the best for my set up wheels and tires are 85 cm if I’m not mistaking about 34 inch. I wish I can send you some photos of the project.
If you’ve got an Instagram, you absolutely can send me photos @GarageFab. Or, if you’d rather, shoot me an email to GarageFab702@gmail.com You don’t need to do Suspension builds in any particular order. Front first, back first, motor, no motor, doesn’t matter. With the exception of the pinion angle. You will need to have an engine and transmission installed so you know what angle to set your differential to.
This is a fantastic series. My suspension systems all revolve around Rock Crawlers with 40" + tire size and huge travel. The basics are all the same. Rules of geometry don't change. Thank you I am learning a lot.
I can only imagine how much science goes into rock crawling. I think this is the reason I won’t be going much farther beyond the “Basics.” However I’ve got some plans for a crawler type build on the channel in the future. Maybe a Rock Faller might be a more accurate term. Hope to see you then! Cheers
Great explanation, well done! All too often though I see bent links, steering arms and chassis tubes that are bent for no other reason than some assumed aesthetic in the overall design and that don't add anything to structural rigidity which, after all, is the main aim of any stressed structure. Another of my pet hates is offset connections when a minor re-design would see a direct load path to a mounting point.
That is true, especially on the show grounds. Like “Look what I can do!” Could you clarify your last point though? What do you mean by ‘offset connections’? It sounds interesting. It makes me wonder if it relates to the video I’m producing this very moment. I want my upper link bars to be set as wide as possible but the air spring and its mount will be in the way. So I’m curving the upper link bars around it. I COULD relocate the air springs and I could also move the links inwards but I don’t want to sacrifice any axle stability in fear of having a varying thrust angle and I don’t want to change my existing ride quality by moving the air springs. And so links shall be bent! Thank you, Grant!
This is exactly the knowledge I needed for my Suzuki carry 4-link build! There is a similar crossmember in the Carry chassis that holds links for the e-brake and a couple of other things, but I knew it would be in the way of the travel of the upper link of a hypothetical triangulated 4-link. By creating a bend in the link and increasing the size of the tubing, this can be circumvented. Thank you for providing this series, it has been the best way to learn about suspension concepts!
I’m happy you found it helpful AND I’m crazy excited to hear your knowledge will be used on something unique like the Carry! I’d love to see it when you’re done. I’ll be releasing a video in a couple weeks using this same theory. My Wife’s truck already has air spring mounts installed but they’ll get in the way of the upper link bars so the bars will need to curve around the bags. That video will show how to build the bars to be sure they’re the desired length. Cheers, Zach! 🍻
a constraint that comes with bending a link is that heim joints (rod ends) become forbidden. They are designed to only take compression and tension load, and a bent link would stress the threaded part in bending. So you probably need to get your effective lenght right first try because adjustability gets complicated.
@@GarageFab I think incorrectly using heim joints is an old traditional car trick, a bit like doing a donut on a car park :) There is an expression for it: REIB (Rod Ends in Bending). Their normal use is quite limited actually: straight rods, that's it. But their threads make them tempting for the fine tuning of geometry provided, so they are used everywhere, including highly forbidden A-arms etc.
Yes!! That is the use I was thinking. I also see them used on load-bearing link bars quite often. So I ponder; What are Heims made of that makes sideways force a no no, but a poly bar end of the same diameter is acceptable?
@@GarageFab it's "only" about cracks starting at the root of the threads when you bend or shear a threaded rod. So in the end it's easy to mentally check, but the conclusion is that heim joints are almost useless, because so many uses would bend or shear the threads (talking about shear stress, the actual failure happens with fatigue cracking over time). Threads should only be loaded in compression, extension, or double shear (in which case one sheared side is probably a smooth shaft anyways). That means other spherical bearings are fine, other ways of changing the length of a member are fine. But heim joints are so easy to use and adjust, in particular in the custom and racing worlds where the geometry is developped during the build, they are enticing, everything else is more complicated. Links are fine if they are just a straight rods with 2 heim joints (often one left threaded and the other right threaded, which makes length tuning a delight), heim joints in compression and tension can handle a huge load, they will probably catastrophically fail when the bar buckles, but there is no recovering from buckling anyways.
I gotta say I'm really hooked on your well explained vids and logic about these things. I have a few projects aswell that I can certainly your your tips on. Also I sold a bagged car to a friend while back, and it's something I'm kinda married to in a way so I'll definitely be tweaking it's issues and helping him with it till I die haha! But I do have some good food for thought on some geomentry topics if you get a chance to reply. It's a 95 Caprice former cop car but its straight up custom and has lots of unique stories. Biggest problem with the chassis is that I feel the fabrication was intent on laying frame and huge articulation. Not so much practical driving. Slowly trying to preserve the coolness of what they wanted there, but make it more proper for best driving characteristics
Thank you Steve! Your kind words are greatly appreciated. I’ll take all the motivation I can get. As for now, I’ve made it a priority to respond to every message I get. I imagine at some point it won’t be reasonable when I have a half-million viewers sending messages. (Wishful thinking 😂) As for the Caprice, hit me up on Instagram @GarageFab. Perhaps you can shoot me some photos so we can see what you’re working with. I’d be happy to help where I can. And food for thought? That’s something I’m always hungry for. 🍻
Just found your channel...as a guy about to do his first bag job with a triangulated 4-link to lay out my 94 Hardbody...thank you for sharing your knowledge.
Right on Brother! If you literally just subscribed, you can tell everyone when Garage Fab gets big that you were the 4000th subscriber. I wish I had a prize for you. 😂 Both the triangulated 4 link and Hardbody are excellent choices! I can’t wait to see it. If you ever have a question, don’t hesitate to ask! Good luck. I appreciate you. 🍻
@@GarageFab Hell yeah! The knowledge is the best prize, anyway. The biggest challenge on this truck may just be the front crossmember for the front upper link locations. I've been reading up some Max Fish's old postings about tri-4link geometry. Gonna keep the lower bars parallel to the ground at ride height, and set the upper bars to where the instant center is at (or just beyond) the front bumper. Planning on having the rear mounting points just inward of the notch in the frame, and front points will most likely land on the hoop for driveline on the front crossmember. I'm excited to put this ThorBros super lift tri 4link to work. I just hope I don't have to do a slip spline shaft on the rear drive line to keep from shit-wrecking the carrier bearing and the trans tailshaft seal.
One of my favorite people. A lot of what I know today came from The Fish. My opinions differ from Max a little on the use of instant center. He is 100% correct and that setup is a good rule of thumb for proper handling and traction off the line. This is the basic idea behind a lot of production vehicles like the Toyota 4Runner and drag cars as well. In other words, static height vehicles. My argument is this design causes problems with drive shaft alignment at certain points on an adjustable height vehicle. That can cause u joints to fail and a really annoying vibration on the freeway. Now days we have access to automatic ride height systems which can mimic static height vehicles so it’s less of a concern, but I don’t always drive at the same height. Sometimes I like to skate and if it’s raining I’ll lift it up quite a bit. This is why I recommend a truly parallel 4 link with equal length upper and lower bars (or equal distance between upper and lower axis’ on a triangulated 4 link) This throws the instant center out the window since you’re essentially left with an infinite instant center. This will effect traction some but not noticeable for most people. You can also overcome this lack of traction by angling all the bars slightly so the rear of the link bars are a bit lower than the front at what I call your “performance ride height” which will provide some anti-squat properties and increase traction significantly. Either design has sacrifices so it may be a useless argument but since I often build for other people and I don’t want them to have to come back to have something fixed, I stick with the same design. As for the carrier bearing, my brief advice: Match the length of the link bars to the length of the rear section of drive shaft as close as you can. In other words, if the rear section of drive shaft is 36 inches, and your link bars are 36 inches, your carrier bearing won’t be yanked or pulled on. If you’ve already purchased your bars I imagine that might be a frustrating statement. Good luck Brother! Ask questions whenever you need. I’ll answer if I can. Otherwise I’ll tell you to go Fishing. 😂
Ive been stalling on building my ford 8.8 setup formy first gen rx7 because I was scared to screw up the geometry.. between the fabricator series and your videos I just found man I am feeling much better... I love your simple but informative presentations... Im a visual person so seeing your scaled models really help a lot... Now to decide to try to adapt the factory watts setup into the explorer 8.8 I have shortened (grannies speed shop does this) or put a panhard from factory frame point to axle over the top of the pumpkin is the way to go... may need some bends in it to keep the bar flat and give clearance... any thoughts would be great.. thanks
Thank you my man! Your words are appreciated. 🙏 I imagine since it’s an RX7 there’s not a tremendous amount of travel so you’ve got a lot of options. A panhard is just fine in a car like that but I’d highly recommend on any panhard to make it as long as possible. Mounting it to the center of the axle means a really short bar. The shorter the bar, the more sideways motion you’ll get. Though there’s generally nothing wrong with a panhard, I can’t imagine replacing a watts with one. If you can figure out how to adapt it to the new axle I’d recommend that. Do you have an Instagram? Feel free to shoot me some photos. If I can help with the design I will. Cheers, Nathan! 🍻
Are you going to go into the triangulated 4 link more ? That's the only one that bugs me since, wouldn't the top 2 links travel at different geometry since they're not parallel to the bottom 2 on whatever axis that would be. Sorry not sure if that question makes sense but I wish someone could explain this to me or put it in a video.
Yeah that makes a lot of sense and I'll be touching on the axis principle and talking about how it works with a triangulated 4 link. That's something that bugs me about how most people construct the angled link bars. The angled bars natural movement is not tbe same as the lower bars, but when they're bolted to the axle they're forced to rotate on the same axis as the lower bars. That tweaks the bushings since even though the bolts for the link bar ends are angled the axis is the straight line between the left and right bushings. This is totally acceptable in a static height vehicle but I think an adjustable vehicle puts too much stress on the bushings. I design my triangulated links by welding the bar ends on so that the bolts match the axis. This is ridiculously difficult to explain in writing and probably even harder to understand. If you've got an Instagram hit me up @GarageFab and I'll share some photos with you.
Awesome series!! I have a 95 Hardbody and want to do a custom 4 link on it..these videos are absolutely mind boggling and makes this more complex..yet more simple. Love it man.
@@GarageFab I only have one question…would a triangular 4 link be unreasonable on a daily driver? Like would the maintenance be too much with bushings or would heim joints be better..? I’m looking to make it a comfortable daily and be able to Tow…put stuff in the bed (even if it’s notched out for clearance) but I also want it to be a weekend ripper…I know it’s a LOT to ask from a vehicle but I’m willing to make compromises where needed…
I don’t think that’s too much to ask at all. And a triangulated 4-link is perfect for a daily driver. My Mustang came from the factory that way. I bought my Wife’s truck already bagged with a triangulated 4-link, drove it for 3 years and the polyurethane bushings still look mostly new. Heim joints are better and will make the triangulated 4-link more stable but you will experience a slightly rougher ride. The vibrations of the rear axle will channel through the heim joints to the frame. Definitely less luxurious feeling but not extreme. For a daily driver that doesn’t see a race track much, bushings would be just fine.
@@GarageFab Thanks man. Then it’s decided! Triangular 4 link in the rear with coil overs and front coil over conversion! Thanks again! :D …..now I need to buy a welder and get good at welding….and do a C-Notch…
Love this series. I am curious if you could do a video as to how to pull measurements and get dimensions from a vehicle such as travel, ride height ,ect. I understand the math after that point but my truck has a lift from an unknown manufacturer with no numbers to it at all. Just thought I'd throw it out there thank you for the knowledge!!!
I’m not 100% sure I’m clear on the question. So I’ll spit a bunch of answers and hope one sticks. To find all kinds of info about how vehicles come from the factory, I punch the make and model into Wikipedia. Since I build mostly Mini Trucks, I determine ride height as the distance between the ground and the part of the frame that will be setting on the ground. That’s as simple as busting out a tape measure. Travel is a much greater challenge. If you don’t have hydraulics or air springs installed, you need to remove the springs so you can lower the suspension to the bump stops. Subtract that number from the ride height (with springs installed) and that’ll give you travel. As for the video on the subject, your questions may be answered in one of the upcoming videos when I get the front and/or rear suspension assembled. Lemme know if that helped. 🍻
Awesome video again! Yummy your man kandy now hahahahaha! Keep comment also made me laugh! So I would like not have to cut my Nissan hardbody dailydriver’s bed and I would like to bag it. I’ve been reading the susupension handboody Max Fish wrote. I still don’t trust my self thinking about having reverse link bars so I don’t have to relocate my fuel tank. So is this possible Arron, I mean Man Kandy?
It's definitely "possible." I'm quite anti-reverse 4 link. I'm probably going to have to make a video about it. A lot of people claim their reverse 4 links are just fine but I argue that's not true. I can't explain all the reasons why here but I can assure you that relocating your fuel tank is not as miserable as it seems. A few brackets, a couple fuel line and wire extensions and you're done and you will have dodged several bullets by not building a less than ideal suspension set-up.
Side note: You don't necessarily have to cut your bed to bag your truck. If you want to lay the frame on the ground you'll likely need to cut it up to make room for notches or raise the bed floor but there's no law that says you have to drag in order to bag. You can have a nice lowered or factory height truck on air suspension.
What type of joins do you use or would recommend for a 4 link parallel suspension. Keep up the content your Short, informative, and entertaining videos are much appreciated. I’ll be abandoning the antiquated leafs on my 04 rcsb Chevy truck. Also you never finished your opinion on the trailing/truck arm suspension. Which nascar continue to use all these years later for its simplistic effectiveness.
Thank you, Ivan! I prefer regular polyurethane bushings for parallel 4 links on street vehicles. Same with triangulated 4 links but Heim joints on the upper angled bars would give you a more stable axle. If you’re referring to my short mention of the two-link setup, there will be a little more on it in the next suspension basics video about drive shafts and pinion angle. (Which is taking a really long time to produce) The two link is fine if used properly (NASCAR) where the suspension travel is minimal but it’s terrible for adjustable vehicles. In other words vehicles that may travel 1 inch off the ground one minute and 6 inches the next minute. The two link would create all kinds of pinion angle problems and potential failed U joints. Hopefully I can make all this clearer in future episodes. Hang in there!
@@GarageFab thanks for the reply..I'm considering either a triangulated 4 link or getting trailing arms from a 72 c10 and building a crossmember like the one you just mentioned in your new video and replicating its entire rear setup for my gmt800 rcsb. What's the maximum ride travel recommend for trailing/truck arms?. God bless
I’ll gently coax you to go with the triangulated 4 link for worry-free driving. If you were to use the trailing arm design, I’d suggest installing some sort of automatic air management system to ensure you’re always at your target ride height. But what fun is that? Why not just install springs? Any prolonged misalignment of the driveshaft is bad. The reason it’s not a concern on static height vehicles is how brief the misalignment is before the vehicle naturally returns to ride height. I don’t think I could give you a range of acceptable ride height with trailing arms. I could only suggest… if you feel a vibration, bring it closer to your known good ride height. Not a guaranteed safe way to go about it but a vibration definitely indicates an unhappy drive shaft. Or… triangulated 4-link. 😉
I have a hard time believing I just watched 4 videos on suspension and enjoyed them, on top of another 6 or 7 videos right before that. I'm getting ready to pull an '85 D50 out from where it's been sitting nearly untouched since 2000 with an unknown issue outside of being told "engine". Ended up here thanks to a quick search for mighty max rebuild and loving it. Your attention to detail and ease in explaining it, plus the interesting way you do it, you could send these off to help teach the next generation of suspension engineers and custom shop techs.
@@GarageFab So am I. It's a mixed bag between getting that one running and worked on, plus my wifes XC90 needs some cosmetic and QoL upgrades, and my S80 needs some work done. Hopefully I can make life work out and get some work done. Extremely excited to involve my 12yo and 4yo in the process. They both always want to do the things I do so it'll be fun getting both of those girls helping to rebuild an engine
I appreciate all the 4 link explanation videos, the mini frame and graphics really make it a lot easier to understand! I'll definitely suggest these. I had a couple ideas that could make your already great series more comprehensive, maybe reach a larger audience that isn't just into bagged minitrucks. Questions: 1. Are you going to touch of 3 link suspensions, and a wishbone top link, what is the advantage and disadvantage of the top links being combined into a wishbone? 2. What are the most common link types for different auto applications: -Drag racing -autocross/track events -Daily driver 3. I just bought a POS, 68 Camaro roller (all I could afford) I'm currently putting together, I have all the drivetrain, turbo LS, Muncie 4 speed and solid axle narrowed Ford Explorer 8.8. I want to run coil overs in the rear but not sure what type of rear link suspension to go to for the 3 applications in question 2. Any suggestions? Again thank you so much for all the great explanations and time you've already given to put this series together!
Thank you for all that! I appreciate your time. Congrats on the Camaro! My heart skipped a beat. That's my dream car so I know how hard to come by they are. In my never-ending search I find rusty bodies with no doors or glass for $5k or more. Absolutely insane. I hope that will be a project on the channel at some point though I'm sure it will gain me a lot of haters. I'm NOT a Camaro purist and I'm only concerned with how it looks so I've considered buying a 68 Firebird and converting it or even building one from absolute scratch with a tube chassis and replacement body panels. Time will tell. We're coming to the end to the suspension videos that I had planned. Coming up is pinion angle and I may make a video on why a reverse 4 link is terrible. And then I'll be moving on to front suspension. Believe it or not, these videos haven't been really popular. A select few people really like them but I don't see suspension design carrying the channel. I hadn't planned on making a video specifically on 3 link suspensions but it has a mention in a video that will be called "The Best Rear Suspension Set-up" an innocent bit of click-bait as there is no one perfect design for every car. It will be geared towards adjustable vehicles and therefore will NOT be the best for you're Camaro. When you have a static height vehicle you can focus on things that you have to ignore with adjustable height vehicles like instant center which is important in track cars and drag cars but would destroy a drive shaft in an adjustable vehicle. I'm not super educated in performance suspensions of any type which is why I hadn't planned on going beyond "Suspension Basics" I don't want to be that guy that tries to look smart on topics that I don't fully understand. That said I'll immediately recommend a suspension for your Camaro. 😂 Probably a traditional 4-link but rather than parallel bars, the upper and lower bars would be angled in a way that if you drew a line through them the lines would intersect somewhere around the front of the vehicle. That'll give you a decent instant center. You could make multiple link bar mounts in the front to help dial everything in for the size and weight proportions of your car. The lower link bars would be angled slightly downward with the lower end mounted to the axle to achieve some anti-squat properties. As for axle locating the sky is the limit. Panhard bars work fine in static height vehicles, watts links are fancy, or you could do neither and throw in a wishbone. Good luck my man! And thanks again.
@@GarageFab Thank you, I think that it will likely be a pretty low static height, anyway I will continue to follow after the suspension is done because I like all that you have been doing, even if we have a little different interests I am still learning and seeing a lot of things that even if I don't ever plan to do, I appreciate seeing and learning more about fabrication. Thank you again!
Are you saying you don't like Mankandy? I’m sure most of the Mini truckers that know me personally have been like... “Who’s Aaron?” Thank you, Brother!
