My original instructor, a WWII Navy guy, would first demonstrate the notorious base-to-final-turn-screwup out in the practice area at a safe altitude. We'd stall and spin out of that, then he'd take his students back to the airport and demonstrate how safe it is using up to 45 or 50 degrees of bank (only if needed to prevent an accident or collision) in the traffic pattern if you keep the nose down and the turns coordinated. There should be no fear of banking the airplane anywhere as long as your turns are coordinated and you keep the nose down to keep the load on the wing light. I watched my uncle off and on for more than forty years fly ag airplanes - sometimes in almost 80 degree-banked turns at low level. He always said the same thing: "Keep the turns coordinated and lighten up on the wing loading and you'll be fine." He retired after more than fifty years in the business and never scratched an airplane.
Yep, because bank angle doesn't cause stalls or spins, exceeding critical AOA does. Pulling back on the yoke is how people get themselves into the problem. As long as you can accept the resulting altitude loss, you can bank freely (within airplane limitations). The problem for most pilots is they do not intuitively understand the relationship between the flight controls and the resulting aerodynamics or if they do understand they cannot process the inputs and results in real time, which leads to them pulling on the yoke any time they are banked purely out of habit.
I love watching these as they potentially save my life. I can't tell you the amount of times I've over corrected on base to final. Thank you Jesus that I'm alive to type this...
Wise words. I was in this exact situation yesterday. I had a tailwind on base that pushed me past final. It also pushed me closer to the runway on downwind. When I realized I overshot final I straightened out and executed a go around. Once I was stable I analyzed what happened and went wider on downwind to compensate.
Good information. Finally some discussion on where things really start to go wrong - on the downwind leg. I wish there had been more emphasis made on that, where the problem is actually poor ground reference skills. Dave hit the nail on the head - pilots looking inside too much and not having the necessary awareness of their position and momentum.
Excellent video. I would like to see wind correction angle in the downwind leg discussed. I also appreciate the emphasis on accepting the overshoot and simply going around rather than attempting to "salvage" the approach.
This really helped me understand pattern turns. I’ve been timid b/c im too worried about possibly stalling. But being coordinated and the right airspeed really help.
+Vincent Vuoto--But most pilots dont practice low go arounds either (They are not required for 15 years now in USA) so they keep the bad turn instead and stall on it..Low go around used to be required in USA..
I think the pattern CAN be flown with no more than 30 degree bank turns, but it means you need a good understanding of the fundamentals related to rectangular course. If 30 degrees isn't working you might be waiting too long on the base leg before starting the turn to final, or letting the downwind leg drift toward the runway. Good video, I just emailed the link to my current students. I should probably send it to every pilot I know. The other thing I tell my students is, when you recognize you have overshot the final, correct the problem with heading NOT extra bank in the turn. If that won't salvage it, go around. Jim
I have always been confused why people have trouble with "overshooting" the base to final turn - and I realized it's because my definition of "Overshoot" is too strict after watching some of the sight pictures shown here. I start grumbling at myself if I roll out even a wingspan wide of centreline, but I see examples on this video of people who are just *starting* the turn to final as they cross centerline. Anyone who tries to line up on final after turning onto upwind leg by mistake is probably gonna have a bad day, yeah... I see why the FAA wants to go to the "Carrier approach" 180-to-final method. cant' overshoot base if you don't have a base leg.
This video made me search deeper in what exactly is going on. When turning left bank left, if you use more left rudder than coordinated, the relative wind going to your lower wing is blocked by the fuselage of the plane, therefore when you go to level out, that left aileron AOA is so high plus the blocked wind, now that dropped wing stalls and you spin. Skid is bad.
Just recently I got myself into a situation just like this on my BFR check-ride. It's hard to say it was inadvertent, as it clearly was not. Turning from base to final in a 172 I lost sight of the runway and slightly overshot the runway. So, I increased my bank to get back on track. I heard the CFI kind of grunt a little bit while in the turn. This scenario is very likely the reason she had that reaction. It's easy to do, particularly in a high-wing plane or with a tailwind or both. Fortunately, I had 7,000' of runway to use. So, I just decreased my bank and just chose to land a little further down the runway. Bottom line, this video as well as many others from ASI certainly have helped me to realize that second chances are a gift that should always be learned from.
If you are a low time pilot, please watch this twice. When I returned to flying, on my first morning at the airfield, I had to give up my room to a pilot who just got out of hospital and his old room didn't have wheelchair access. His story was a tight turn to correct overshoot, heavy on the rudder and a second later his aircraft was passing through ZERO AGL.
Rudder should always be a secondary input, that is, only used to keep the plane coordinated, unless breaking a stall as the aileron will worsen the stall if used as primary input. both rudder and elevator become primary when breaking a stall but all other situations, I think rudder should be though of as a secondary input.
A lot of this overshooting, I believe, can be easily avoided before even entering the pattern, namely, just taking note of the wind before entering the pattern. If I know I’m flying a LEFT pattern and the wind will be to the LEFT on final, I’ll probably get a tailwind on base; RIGHT pattern with a RIGHT wind on final, tailwind on base. Staying ahead is key.
Great thanks! I never overshooted but many times undershooted. I think is better to to start turn sooner because you are on “path” so smaller inputs are needed. Correct me if Iam wrong I enjoyed this video…
I'd add on the question of degree turn in the pattern. In my PPL, 30 dg was the 'standard' turn for all pattern work. No issue. Where I got in the bad habit of maintaining the shallower 'standard rate turn' was in training for my IR. Since ALL turns in insturment manuevers are supposed to be standard rate as indicated by the TC, it is easy to get out of the habit to turn as the steeper 30 dg turn taught in PPL - also it begins to feel like an unusual manuever after hours of being chastised for not maintaining standard rate turn(s). Just my two cents...
This really illustrates how serious this is. Mainly because there is almost no chance to recover from a spin or a stall at that altitude. So making just that one mistake will probably cost you your life. Some things in life have to be 100%. You won't get a second chance to fix a mistake like that if you make it.
I always like to add my 2 cents on this topic. I say: Always be aware of having a tailwind on base leg. Start your turn to final early, and come out of the turn a little late, in a crab. Then you can safely adjust to get lined up. Also, since you're fairly low to the ground on base, that tailwind/higher ground speed can con you into thinking higher airspeed. Deadly. Also, like was said in the video, fly a wider downwind ,and perhaps a longer downwind. Also, NEVER think skidding a turn is the answer for anything.
My base to final turns are always 35 degrees nose down at 60 KIAS Hell....I did exactly this on my second solo circuit and I went around...there's no shame in it
Sam, nothing at all wrong with that. You're absolutely right. Keep the nose down and keep the turns coordinated. It's the "fearful" ones who won't bank the airplanes who will kill themselves.
@@megadavis5377 Great information! I’m not a pilot yet but the same principle applies to motorcycles. If you’re afraid to lean the bike, you will overshoot the turn and wipe out if not prepared for the corner. Seen it soooo many times.
Do you mean xw? I generally try to extend my initial climb since I was in the air a lot sooner than if I had landed (extend but not raise above pattern alt)
Keep the ball in the center and recognize you need extra airspeed depending on the bank for a proper margin above the increased stalling speed resulting from the bank. I.e. ball in center, ball in center increase airspeed, increase airspeed - can you hear me above the engine noise?
Just go around. Strong-arming it isn't worth it. Always be aware of where the wind's blowing and how strong. Ace base to final like a pro on the next round.
Can anyone explain to me why the approach method isn't just to line up with the runway on approach? Why do all those turns? Why not just line up on the "extended runway center line" to begin with?
You just described a long final. As for what all these turns are, it's called the traffic pattern. It's there to help coordinate the planes flying around the airport's immediate proximity, to help reduce collisions. For untowered airports that small GA airplanes routinely visit, there needs to be some kind of organization to the chaos, or we'd have planes going in nearly every direction. Since not everybody has DME or GPS on board, or knows how to use it, and one person's 10 mile final is another's 25 mile final, having everybody do long final in visual is maybe not the best idea. Thus, the traffic pattern. The pattern also defines how to handle a go-around, and is a convenient way to practice takeoffs and landings. Feel free to look up more about the pattern here on RU-vid, ASI has a few good videos about it.
I was getting my CFI renewal with a new FAA Examiner who was a high time Navy pilot but a low time glider pilot and they wanted this flight as a checkout for him on high performance sailplanes. I talked him into an inverted spin from a skidding turn to final. (needless to say, it was done at 5000 feet AGL) The full story is in my website, look for CFI Renewal at this link. www.jimforeman.com/Stories/shorttales.htm
This is especially true where you have parallel runways in service they over shoot the base to final turn for the left runway and end up lined up with the right runway. A friend of mine almost collided with a student pilot who turned right base to final overshot ended up with the over on the left runway just below my friend who was on final for the left runway. Lucky he saw the guy was able to avoid and go around.
Why are civilian pilots still forced to fly a squared off pattern? The military teaches a racetrack pattern; way safer because the initial turn just past the approach numbers is constant all the way to short final. The pilot senses early, at the "90" if (s)he will need to shallow or tighten the COORDINATED bank angle before final.
There has been a lot of discussion of changing the square turns to a circular approach from downwind to final. Much better as you always have the runway in sight. This is really necessary when you fly a biplane with its limited visibility.
What are people’s opinions on what this pilot (Frank Pisano) did wrong when trying to effect an emergency landing at John Wayne Airport? This crash occurred nearly FOUR YEARS ago, and the NTSB still hasn’t issued a final report. *The Moment a Small Plane Crashes on the 405 Freeway, Santa Ana at John Wayne Airport* ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-8fSQ38k5j6Y.html *Cessna 310R CRASHES on 405 Freeway after RIGHT ENGINE FAILURE!* ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-coIPtgewIYA.html Just after surviving the crash, the pilot (Frank Pisano) informed the CHP that he had tried to effect the turn at about 350 feet AGL. However, in the last couple of months he changed his story and with help of his attorney said that he was at 500 feet AGL when he tried to effect a 180 degree turn to the RIGHT with the RIGHT engine “INOPERATIVE” (so he claims). Then just yesterday, during his deposition, Pisano changed his story again and said he was at 650 feet AGL when he tried to effect this 180-degree turn banking on the DEAD engine. During the deposition, my attorney reminded Pisano of his (written) statement made under penalty of perjury that he was at 500 feet AGL when he tried to effect the turn. Then, during the deposition, Pisano said, “Well maybe it was about 600 feet.” During the deposition, Pisano also stated that the “recommended altitude for the traffic pattern [was] 1,000 feet” for runway 20R. Pisano stated that this “flight pattern” altitude had nothing to do with trying to perform his base-to-final, but was just a recommendation by the airport so that pilots didn’t collide with high-rise buildings in the area. The manual states that in a single-engine out situation, t”he pilot should land the plane as soon as practical.” Pisano claims that (even though he had enough fuel to get to his destination in Arizona), that with one engine still OPERATING just fine, he was following the recommendation in the manual. We hired a retired US Navy pilot who disagrees with Pisano. Pisano came up 1,500 - 1,600 feet (about 5 football fields) short of the runway ultimately his landing gear snagging on the center divider of the freeway.
Lazy and arrogant kind of pilot old mistake. Too lazy to correct for crosswind on downwind, too arrogant to go around when see he arsehole is overshooting. From my first solo 49 years ago I have seen so many like that killed.
