Taking Zelph Off the Shelf! (Feat. Don Bradley) 

Literally have never gotten bored listening to Don.. one of the few people who constantly bring me something new. Rare and appreciate!

Don Bradley is the most hilarious stoic. Always classic when he is on.

I did the first Like! I was just turning off my phone to go to bed... but it looks like I won't be going to sleep for 29 minutes.

Love listening to Don! No reason Zelph can't be BOTH allegorical AND literal. Lots of inspired scripture is.

Don Bradley breaks the Zelph Shelf more easily than a teenage worker at Ripples breaks perforated boards in The Phone Call

My testimony is still strong after hearing about Zelph and Cardon's singing. I should get a free tee shirt.

i'm a "heartlander," and have never heard of zelph. i'm a heartlander for one simple reason. both joseph smith and oliver cowdrey said that is where it all happened.

I never picked up on that Zeezrom thing until now! Thanks, Don Bradley. Wow.

Ya'll should take a Zelphie

I get what Don is saying and it makes sense and can be applicable, but I don’t think it’s always good to allegorize things away that don’t make sense to us as being factual or historical. I know there are some things that are obviously allegorical but can’t we take Joseph at his word? That Zelph was an actual person who actually lived and served under an actual person named Onandagus?

I’ll name my next boy Zelph, middle name Don 👊🏼

Love the heartland theory no matter what people think about Zelph evidence is overwhelming, especially since the hopewell indians temples match hebrew by having ramps etc. evidence is everywhere, lets not forget how dumb the theory is of Moroni walking 5000 miles with the gold plates and everything else in the box and nearby cave.....

Zelph, Onandagus and all the rest in Illinois could have been descendants of the Hagoth expedition who sailed north from the Yucatan. Unlikely, but without more to go on than a boney story all geographic models are open.

Why do people not read more of these accounts as jokes? They could have been. I think allegory makes sense here; but we take the prophet’s transcribed words so seriously sometimes. Maybe much of what Joseph & Brigham’s words were humorous to those around them in the context that we can’t see with modern eyes.

How does Don explain away the following: While traveling with Zion’s Camp in 1834, Joseph wrote to his wife Emma that they were “wandering over the plains of the Nephites, recounting occasionally the history of the Book of Mormon, roving over the mounds of that once beloved people of the Lord, picking up their skulls and their bones, as a proof of its divine authenticity.”1

I’ve heard the name of Zelph, and I think I’ve heard the story, but I had no idea about all of this! This is so fun! Thank you, Don Bradley!

It's important to make the point that, just as Zeezrom was a real person in history (in addition to what analogy Mormon was making), Zelph was a real person(in addition to whatever analogy Joseph may have been making). To say it's just an allegory - and I'm not saying Don is claiming this - would be a copout. And it really doesnt lend to or take away from one geographic model or the other, given it was after the Book of Mormon period.

Very interesting. Thanks Don.

I was reading that dr Seuss book to my kid a few weeks ago and made the same connection lol!

"The smoking arrow head" I dig it!!!!

Truely feeling the roots of this channel now that it's midnight :)

This was really interesting. At the same time, there is no reason to suppose that the heartland model is wrong. Two people can elaborate on this further: Rod Meldrum regarding DNA evidence in some US tribes, and Bruce Porter regarding geographical clues in the Book of Mormon. Both have been previously interviewed on Cwik Media.

I was just watching ur other video on zelf from 2yrs ago when this pops up lol

I’m quite certain that if the Zelph account had occurred in Guatemala under similar circumstances, they wouldn’t be referencing it as just an allegory. It would be shouted from the rooftops as evidence exhibit #1 that the Book of Mormon took place in Central America. Nevertheless, Don’s theories are always interesting and insightful.

The problem is that the people recording the experience didn't take it as an allegory. Bradley's interpretation suggests Joseph was making up stories about real artifacts.

Joseph Smith was dealing with physical bones, he stated the history as fact, and it was understood as fact by each of the recorders. Subsequent carbon dating of the mound places it in the right timeframe archaeologically. It's not allegory.

Okay, who’s to say that the Book of Mormon couldn’t have started in South America. And some of them went across the gulf to Florida and the Bahamas. And also due to the horrendous wars and fighting, migrated North and took to the Sea West. The Lord loves His people. Cardon, I still believe what my grandmother told me about what she told me about our people. The neighboring tribe has similar stories.

I’d wear a hat “Zelph Respect” shirt!

Onondaga is SW of Syracuse New York. I grew up an hour east. I have ancestors French explorer ancestor who married a Mohawk woman. It’s not enough to show up on Ancestry but it is written in books. I am of the Turtle Clan. Do your family history and you’ll find out who you are.

Im a heartland model guy and i first heard of Zelph through Wayne May who told the story at one of his seminars. I figured if he was super important we would have him in our records now. Maybe he's the easter egg for the sealed 1/3 of the plates we still are waiting for???? Hmmm....

Even if Zelph was a white Lamanite who served under the Prophet Onondagas, in the last great battle between the Nephites, or people of God, and the Lamanites or everyone else, none of this proves that The Book Of Mormon took place in the United States Of America. Nephites traveled North "an exceedingly great distance" both on foot and by ships, and Lamanites hunted down Nephites anywhere they were. And of course the Nephites and Lamanites settled wherever they traveled to. Moroni tells us that he isn't the last Nephite, just the last from where he lived, the Lamanites are still hunting down Nephites, which could have taken hundreds of years more. We know that about 900A.D. white skinned red haired people settled in Peru/Columbia area, because their mummies have been found, but they disappeared shortly after. Onondagas could have been the founder of what is now the tribe of Onondaga, following Book Of Mormon and ancient Hebrew traditions of naming a people after a great leader. But what doesn't work for the Heartlanders is the prophecy of Nephi that Columbus would VISIT the seed of brethren IN the Promised Land, when Columbus only set foot on a few Caribbean Islands and a few places along the coast from Honduras to Panama, and only encountered Mesoamericans. So at the very least Honduras would have to be part of the Promised Land and Mesoamericans would have to be included among the seed of Nephi's brethren, which Heartlanders can't accept, for that makes the Mesoamerican model at least equally viable, if not culturally, historically and geographically more viable.

Just because Don is a likable good hearted defender of the truth, which he definitely is, doesn't make him right. Like every other church historian, his interpretation and assumptions regarding the historcal record are only as good as the depth and extent of his research and his critical analysis of second hand hearsay accounts and his willingness to accept or discount and explain away everything Joseph Smith said.

There is an Onadagas cave in MO. It is a name associated with Missouri tribes.

I like Don

@ward radio you seriously need to have someone invite Robert Kay from Mormon Yeshiva to talk about ancient hebrew and the Book of Mormon. He can explain more about what Don Bradley was sharing about the allegorical names. Kwaku might also enjoy his teachings on astrology.

Member all my life and never heard of Zelf. 🤷🏼‍♀️

JS said the eastern sra or the Hill Cumorah, indicating Lake Ontario. He also said that their march was over the plains of the Nephites and that the mounds and bones were evidence of the Book of Mormon's divine authenticity.

I’ve never heard of Zelph before, I guess I’ve been living under a rock

Thanks for sharing, this was a fun episode :) - I liked the new perspective that Don Bradley shared. I have also considered the idea that if there was such a man, that he could fit into either geographical model, as a Mesoamerican model can still allow for groups of Nephites and Lamanites migrating to the land northward (what is now the USA) over time, which could account for such as man as Zelph. But I still like the allegorical idea the best :)

Zelph would make a cool Marvel hero!

I was in the same ward as Kaye Starr Heninger about 20 years ago. She's in her 70's now, and lives in East Layton, Utah.

Maybe I missed something. Why do people believe the story of zelph was an allegory if Joseph Smith explicitely said the skeleton really was zelph?

My understanding is that like most stories attributed to Joseph Smith, the Zelph narrative is preserved more by second and third hand witness than by Joseph himself.

Kaye Starr is my mom. It's a first name, like Mary Ann. She'd be happy to play it for you.

Makes sense. A prophet can act as a mythopoet too.

Kwaku Golden El, Brad Porter Whitbeck, Don Zelph Bradley, Cardon 'Creambucket' Ellis. 😅

I love the stories coming from Zions camp. And Zelph is and will continue to be one of my favorite! The bone that Wilford Woodruff got from Zelph I believe was buried in Missouri not Utah. And was buried in the yard of a military leader, which makes that story that much cooler.

I’m looking at SOME of the migrants coming North from South America these days.

naaa, if this's alegorical, all the rest could be. This is like spiritualizing the scriptures. It is what J.S said it is until is proven contrary.

Zelph could fit into any geographic model easily since the book of mormon doesn't presume to be a comprehensive history if it happened in meso america the heartland would be the land northward and nothing would have stopped a nephite from journeying that far northward.

So going off of what Cardon said about names of people he's met or known, I was once going through a Chick-fil-A in Utah and the dude that handed me my food was named Teancum.

I want to see Zelph battle Nimrod

Onandagus being JS, Zelph being the members of Zion's camp all being archetypal reminds me of the temple endowment with Adam and Eve as allegory for each man or woman who receives their endowment as well.

In the 70's my parents would go to old Indian burial sites in the Phoenix Az area. They would go dig and sift through the dirt, then bring home shards of pottery. One time they brought home an entire child's fingernail. Very disgusting. Even worse my Mom would take the kitchen sieve/sifter.

Okay, is there any evidence Joseph intended the Zelph story as a metaphor besides making inferences from the names?

Radical Idea! Reminds me of my other favorite declarer of radical ideas, Bernie Sanders

just wait intel people realize the book of Mormon is just an allegory as well.

There are two types of people. Those who take Zelphies, and those who let others are able take their Zelphies off the Shelfies.

As a primary teacher I rather liked the Zelph song lol

Guys, people are so stubborn in believing in either the heartland or the Meso American model when it is clearly both. Remember the destruction of the Nephites took many years as they were chased from the land of their first inheritance in Meso America and at last could retreat no more. Remember they had horses and Moroni no doubt had one in order to heft the records with him and flee from his pursuers over a 27 year period of time. He certainly buried the plates in New York and it is quite likely that he wandered far from the battles of destruction during that time as it would make no sense for him to linger in the south knowing the Nephite society was destroyed and defectors would recognize him and he was famous as the son of Mormon and general of the Nephites and the Lamanites knew he was still alive. So he had to travel a long way to survive over 27 years

I think Joseph was trying to build his street cred…

Another very interesting episode!

Everyone who gets a Zelph respect t-shirt should take a zelphy of them wearing it.

Me, my-zelph, and I

I know kids named Ripliancum and Teancum but no Zelph

The Onondaga Nation is in the Syracuse NY area. Joseph got lucky again.

I have become an enthusiastic fan of Ward radio over the last few months, but I have to say this episode was the worst I have watched. I have even very much enjoyed previous episodes with Don Bradley. However, Don's relation of this event was horribly misleading. I have read all the original accounts describing what Joseph said about Zelph. Theorizing that Joseph fabricated the whole thing as a parable is ridiculous. Joseph himself and the other accounts are very specific to note that the intelligence about the life of the warrior, Zelph, was received by divine communication (specifically a vision). Don also omits important context such as how Joseph would later write to his wife that they roamed over the plains of the Nephites picking up their skulls and bones as proof of the Divine authenticity of the Book of Mormon. It certainly doesn't sound like Joseph thought the story was a fable. Add to that the Illinois State archaeologists who did excavations at Zelph's Mound in the 1970s and 80s and dated the remains there to 380 AD. What a coincidence that when Joseph fabricated a fable to prank the brethren that he placed the time of his fable exactly at the time of final Nephites/Lamanite struggle.

I keep my smack on the shelf, cuz I like to talk a lot of smack, so I keep extra on the bomb shelter shelf

Interesting take on the Zelph account and not saying it couldn't have been allegorical. It could also been revelation to hint of the people of the book of Mormon. What does Onandaga mean? People of the hill. A tribe in New York that calls themselves the prople of the Hill. I thought onandagus was odd phonetics until I read some of the Walum Olum and it seems to align with the ancient Delaware phonetically. Note Joseph Smith said the book of Mormon took place in this country as he seems to quote what Moroni told him.

Zelph was real. The Book of mormon literally happened.

Bought Dargon Theif for my son in law, who is far cooler (nerdier) than I! 😉

I do not know a kid named Zelf but my husband has a cousin named Monhanri Moriancamor (I spelled that wrong I know)

All of us connected zelf and zelph way before the pod. I think it actually works more like elf on the shelf because zelph is a shelf item for many people.

daaang you guys are a video machine

Im so NOT on the heartland side. Sorry, Americans, but I just see more evidence in Yucatán and Guatemala.

I love you guys and I love the work that Don Bradley has done... but Don, I could not disagree more. You are suggesting that Joseph Smith misled all of the people of Zion's Camp by representing an allegory as a true revelation. That is simply false and preposterous. That is quite the complex "allegory" to make up! Do you not think that if it was an allegory to cheer the troops that Joseph would have simply represented it as so? Do you not think that Jospeh knew the difference between an allegory and a true revelation? In the Book of Mormon Joseph acknowledged in the book of Jacob a true allegory. To suggest that Joseph MADE UP the whole thing to cheer up his weary band is simply preposterous. Do you not think that maybe a more likely scenario might be that THE LORD knew that they needed encouragement, and therefore guided them to a true burial site and that the entire story was factual? Besides, Zions's Camp was meant to be a trial of faith and produced some of the greatest latter-day leaders the church has ever known, and they may not have needed this alleged so-called encouragement. Did Jospeh or any of the Camp ever write or say that the Zelph story gave them encouragement to go on? Not that I know of. I can't be more disappointed in this abhorrent and wild interpretation. That being said, by the way, I LOVED your interview with that guy when you told your re-conversion story! Now that was good stuff! You at your best! The most uplifting and edifying and faith strengthening thing I've ever heard you say was simply your personal testimony. This stuff-- yikes, man! Where are you coming up with this? It makes Joseph Smith into a deceiver, even if his intentions were good. He would not lie or misrepresent an allegory as a true, historical account, AND I KNOW that in spite of him being a flawed human being he would never make up a story and represent it as fact-- let alone represent it as REVELATION! I hope you retract your story and let Joseph's testimony of Zelph stand on its own.... This is a stain on your record. Sorry for the strong rebuke, but I love ya man, and you are WAY off on this one.

@Kwaku El, that Zelph song could only get worse if done as death metal.

My friend says he has a street in a near by town called Onondaga St.

Is there not a scenario where the BoM takes place in both North AND South America?

I actually know a child that is named Onandagus.

John Dehlin came up with the Zelph on the Shelf name I believe they said in an interview

I know a Zelph

Sorry, but this is mental gymnastics to lessen credence to the heartland theory. Is Joseph Smith writing to Emma that they were wandering over the plains of the Nephites, picking up their bones as divine authenticity, allegorical? Come on, Don..

23K SUBS FAM!

Zelph was killed by an atlathal head not an arrowhead

As a heart lander I’m a tad disappointed. But in context this story has another purpose altogether.

Interesting revisionist history. Is Don doing BOM research for Brian C Hales work on the BOM?

I actually disagree that Zelph was a made up metaphor from Joseph Smith. The Book of Mormon is full of metaphors, if we follow this thinking. Why is Joseph Smith, the Prophet of the restoration not able to mediate in prayer seeing the bones of Zelph and be shown, by God who Zelph was? God could have easily done this to show Joseph that they were in a war-like situation, also. Zelphs story was what God wanted Joseph to share with the soldiers marching to Zions camp, but, based on true historical revelations! Patterns here, brethren, for Joseph Smiths gift of prophecy and revelations of the first Prophet of the restoration! I can’t even envision it as a made up metaphor! Bradley told it well, but, I believe it was actually Zelph’s true story!

Interesting discussion. It could be an allegory. I agree that the Zelph narrative figures into geography debates. But it shouldn't. What does the narrative say about Onandagus? Known from the Rocky Mountains to the Atlantic and from Canada to the Gulf of Mexico. That is essentially the same phrase used by the archaeological team at Cahokia. Cahokia is a major Mississippian culture site in Illinois east of St. Louis, not that far south of where Zion's Camp passed. The Mississippian culture starts in the southern Mississippi area and spread along the Mississippi river and the Ohio and other rivers. Cahokia existed from about 700 to 1200 AD and was larger in population than London at the same time. And their influence, if not control, was from the Atlantic to the Rocky Mountain and from Canada to the Gulf of Mexico. I can't help wondering if Joseph was picking up on this influence. The Mississippians are tied to Mesoamerican culture at least through trade as Mesoamerican seeds are found at their sites. So, it is possible that Lamanites, after Book of Mormon times, moved into the southern Mississippi and then set up the Mississippian culture. The Zelph narrative could fit into this context. If so then it doesn't figure well into the geography debate. I have been criticized by people in both camps for suggesting this possibility.

Do you want to know how Joseph encourages the weary Saints? The following account from D&C 128 is how! NOT with FAKE stories he represents as historical facts!!! 19 Now, what do we hear in the gospel which we have received? A voice of gladness! A voice of mercy from heaven; and a voice of truth out of the earth; glad tidings for the dead; a voice of gladness for the living and the dead; glad tidings of great joy. How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of those that bring glad tidings of good things, and that say unto Zion: Behold, thy God reigneth! As the dews of Carmel, so shall the knowledge of God descend upon them! 20 And again, what do we hear? Glad tidings from Cumorah! Moroni, an angel from heaven, declaring the fulfilment of the prophets-the book to be revealed. A voice of the Lord in the wilderness of Fayette, Seneca county, declaring the three witnesses to bear record of the book! The voice of Michael on the banks of the Susquehanna, detecting the devil when he appeared as an angel of light! The voice of Peter, James, and John in the wilderness between Harmony, Susquehanna county, and Colesville, Broome county, on the Susquehanna river, declaring themselves as possessing the keys of the kingdom, and of the dispensation of the fulness of times! 21 And again, the voice of God in the chamber of old Father Whitmer, in Fayette, Seneca county, and at sundry times, and in divers places through all the travels and tribulations of this Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints! And the voice of Michael, the archangel; the voice of Gabriel, and of Raphael, and of divers angels, from Michael or Adam down to the present time, all declaring their dispensation, their rights, their keys, their honors, their majesty and glory, and the power of their priesthood; giving line upon line, precept upon precept; here a little, and there a little; giving us consolation by holding forth that which is to come, confirming our hope! 22 Brethren, shall we not go on in so great a cause? Go forward and not backward. Courage, brethren; and on, on to the victory! Let your hearts rejoice, and be exceedingly glad. Let the earth break forth into singing. Let the dead speak forth anthems of eternal praise to the King Immanuel, who hath ordained, before the world was, that which would enable us to redeem them out of their prison; for the prisoners shall go free. 23 Let the mountains shout for joy, and all ye valleys cry aloud; and all ye seas and dry lands tell the wonders of your Eternal King! And ye rivers, and brooks, and rills, flow down with gladness. Let the woods and all the trees of the field praise the Lord; and ye solid rocks weep for joy! And let the sun, moon, and the morning stars sing together, and let all the sons of God shout for joy! And let the eternal creations declare his name forever and ever! And again I say, how glorious is the voice we hear from heaven, proclaiming in our ears, glory, and salvation, and honor, and immortality, and eternal life; kingdoms, principalities, and powers! 24 Behold, the great day of the Lord is at hand; and who can abide the day of his coming, and who can stand when he appeareth? For he is like a refiner’s fire, and like fuller’s soap; and he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the Lord an offering in righteousness. Let us, therefore, as a church and a people, and as Latter-day Saints, offer unto the Lord an offering in righteousness; and let us present in his holy temple, when it is finished, a book containing the records of our dead, which shall be worthy of all acceptation. 25 Brethren, I have many things to say to you on the subject; but shall now close for the present, and continue the subject another time. I am, as ever, your humble servant and never deviating friend, Joseph Smith.

Joseph Smith's ancestors and my ancestors came from the same area In Ireland. they were of Scots and Irish blood. These people love to tell stories. Take some truth, add some BS. If you tell it with calm conviction you just might end up with a convincing story. True or not I think it's a cool story.

Ok I bought Brad’s book, you got me!

The gloves are off

Nice musings, Don. But, ... no. Zelph is not the smoking arrow the Heartlanders think he is. And he is not a fatal blow to the Mesoamerican model. What he is, is a manifestation or a convergence of stories from the Book of Mormon and history. Zelph is easily consistent with either model. The correspondence with a North American Heartlanders model is easy. You could say it's a no-brainer... Finding the connection to the Mesoamerican model really isn't difficult if you can read the Book of Mormon text with an open mind. First, "plains of the Nephites" is not a phrase used in the Book of Mormon. And if Zelph is buried in a mound there, he's in the wrong neighborhood, isnt he? Alma 63 and Helaman 3: 1-14 talk about tens of thousands going to the land northward, both Nephites and Lamanites, some "an exceedingly great distance" from the primary geographical setting featuring only east and west seas, to a land that then also had a north and south sea, where they had great civilizations across the lands. So, Zelph may have been buried in Illinois.... But his great grandfather could have been living in Chiapas, Mexico. Problem solved. See also the work of Dr. Mark Wright and his theory of "Heartland as Hinterland."

Where can I get Zelph prints?

Me thinks thou doth protest too much… Interesting but it is possible that it is just actually what it is. Ya’ll should really look deeper into the Heartland model. It really makes a lot of sense.

😝 There's 20 minutes of pseudo intellectual drivel and nonsense that I'll never get back. Extrapolation, fabrication and silly imagination. Zelph = self. Groan. Are we all 3 years old?

Don is amazing!

Aaaaahhh... allegorical use of names. Like when Donald Trump tells a story about 'Little Rocket Man '.

Love Zelph on the Shelf! They're wonderful. Definitely check out them reading Jack Weyland books if you can. It's incredibly fun.