Talking with David Benatar | Is it immoral to have children? + Followup Conversation 

How can not existing be good unless there's an experience of "good" _for_ the person that doesn't exist?

@@naturalisted1714 4 noble truths. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-Vjm2zdQ5ll0.html

I think Alex did a pretty good job too.

@Abby ⸸Ⓐ 👊👍

Alex is a ROYAL pain in the ass.

1. I become an antinatalist coz i believe that God is exist and God way worst and evil than an evil it self. He is maniac, worst than a psycopath. It is bad to be a 'God conductor' to increase number of his victim. 2. I dont want suffer and i dont really need a pleasure. I prefer never exist.

​@@sam_4265 Hello Sam, that sounds really sad. I know the horrors of depression from my own first hand experience. I would advise you to consider the possibility that you might suffer from it too. I can reassure you, I don't believe there is an evil god who created this universe for the sole purpose of torturing his creatures. I think that in our daily ethical life we ​​shouldn't rely on abstract metaphysical concepts. We are here in this world and most of us suffer terribly - even those who wouldn't even admit it - and we should make the best of it. Let us live our lifes wisely and help each other because the damage we do to others is the damage we do to ourselves. If you are at the point where you don't want to live anymore because it seems that every day is a torture then don't throw this wonderful opportunity away but use it to transcend it. If you don't feel able to take this step then that's perfectly okay, then I would advise you to seek help from nice people, or, if you live in a country with public helthcare, you to see a therapist. I wish you a quick recovery and best regards!

@@descartes6797 Well, im a muslim, there is a God, heaven and hell, even if i die, it wont delete the condition that i've ever life and its consecuences. Yea, i agree, i like to help other 'God's victim' and try not to increase it.

@@sam_4265 Good for you.

But if I didn't exist, there wouldn't be an absence of pain. To say there would be would require there to be some sort of state of unending painlessness we're in before birth.

That’s not what’s being said exactly. It is a comparison. When we say the absence of pain is good, we mean that it is better than the alternative. Imagine a child that is born in extreme pain with a genetic disorder that lives until 5 years old, and experiences only pain. Compare this to the neutral state of the unborn child that never comes into existence. The point is that the scenario of the baby in pain is worse than the one with no person. That’s all he is saying and it seems totally reasonable. The fact that there is no one there to feel pain is a good thing in the sense that it is better.

Sounds like a bad match unfortunately.

Don't try, find someone else. Antinatalists generally believe very strongly and are fully convinced breeding is immoral. Respect your partners choice.

Come up with good arguments against antinatalism. It'd be a first though 😆

@@watkins7086 David Benatar's Asymmetry Argument is deeply flawed. Benatar's AN is based on the idea that to not exist is "better", but it cannot be better unless there's a beneficiary of said "better", so there'd have to be a sort of "Resting In Peace" state, which the non-existent person appreciates. This obviously makes no sense whatsoever... Benatar says "I don't literally mean it's better _for_ the non-existent"... Here you can see he still refers to "The Non-existent". And saying "I don't literally mean it's better for the non-existent", so then I must ask: Then why ever say "Better Never To Have Been ", if that's not what you mean? Why use such a misleading title and language? If he doesn't mean it, then there's literally no reason for him to have written a book. It is required that he means it. His "Better Never To Have Been" has caused much confusion for people like Sam Harris, Alex O'Connor (Cosmicskeptic), and many philosophers. He wants his cake and to eat it too. There wouldn't be so many drawn out conversations with him having to explain what he means if there were no confusion. If he doesn't literally mean it's better _for_ the person,then what led him to specifically pick the phrase "better never to have been", and "it's better to not be born", etc? Had you not been born you would not be in some sort of state of protection from the conscious experience that some _other_ brain is doing... For it is merely the birth of _a_ brain (in a completely objective manner of speaking) that's responsible for _this_ experience, this life (the one reading this right now). And non-existence did not stop the birth of a brain from causing this experience. And so, if you didn't exist, because other brains were born and doing consciousness back at the time of your birth, then instead of _this_ life, it would have been one of those lives... One that *was* born... As opposed to "resting in peace", or "peaceful oblivion", or whatever you want to call it. If it isn't one life it's another. If there were only one brain in the universe doing consciousness right now, _that_ would be the experience, as opposed to some sort of state which protects you from that one and only experience... Because that would be the only experience there is.... And no Benatarian antinatalist would be happy with _any_ life; they want unending "non-existence", because they know that _all_ lives contain some amount of suffering

+ Followup Conversation

@@notwelcome7795 k, you're not welcome

Downvoted big time. SHUT U P.

That’s not what’s being said exactly. It is a comparison. When we say the absence of pain is good, we mean that it is better than the alternative. Imagine a child that is born in extreme pain with a genetic disorder that lives until 5 years old, and experiences only pain. Compare this to the neutral state of the unborn child that never comes into existence. The point is that the scenario of the baby in pain is worse than the one with no person. That’s all he is saying and it seems totally reasonable. The fact that there is no one there to feel pain is a good thing in the sense that it is better. If you don’t accept the fact that the absence of pain is good, then you would be indifferent to these two scenarios which seems intolerable. It is better in terms of the interests of the person who would exist in the other scenario that they never be born.