The other thing to note is that future Cues drop bar levers were promised back at launch. That's still not been shown anywhere yet, but in terms of selling the interchangeability concept that could well win Shimano some customers, especially with OEMs. Still no details for us muggles though.
I use CUES groupset (11s, 11-50, normal 11s Shimano chain) on my 2020 Turbo Levo (Gen 2) with a Praxis 34T steel narrow-wide chainring. Chain gap tool, gotta get one! I’ve run about 1200 miles on the group set so far. I used to use 11s XT derailleur, SRAM GX cassette (10-46, because it has all-steel rings, and the Levo ate the alloy big rings on the Shimano cassette) and GX chain or Shimano 11s chain. The Levo used to randomly eat derailleurs and have occasional weird shifting problems, despite scrupulous tuning. Also, I generally had to change the cassette at the same time as the chain because otherwise the new chain would skip on the smaller cogs - super annoying. I usually kept 2-3 cassettes and 2-3 derailleurs in stock, along with a few chains. Covid habit! (I’m a consumer not a shop). So I would get about 5-600 miles out of a chain/cassette combo. With the CUES, I got 1000 miles out of the first chain (replaced as soon as .5 stretch on park tool), and with a new chain, no issues with the cassette so far, and the entire thing cost me around $300. So my mileage is, cheap groupset, weight doesn’t matter, and kicks a** on a Turbo Levo. The shifting style is kinda chunky and leisurely, like an old BMW motorcycle gearbox. Five stars, two thumbs up. I have some SRAM chains. I’ll try one when I run out of the Shimanos. I would be shocked if there is a diff.
I have an old BMW motorcycle, shifts like a broken sewing machine so that was a great metaphor 😂 I'm glad you're getting extra life out of it! That was definitely an expressed purpose. If you have a local shop, you can ask them if they could order one for you from Shimano Direct (dealer facing wholesale website, I think the advertised consumer MSRP is $18). I haven't seen one on any of the other distributor sites yet, but there's a whole ecosystem of wholesale warehouses just out of view that a local shop may be able to track one down in.
100% more of the same dressed as change! If they allowed this to play out for more than a year or two (maybe 10) it might achieve what it claims, but the need to inspire upgrades to drive $$ has always won out in the past.
Thanks for doing this video! It clarified things to me about the whole CUES thing. Especially about shops needing to stock more and keep track of even more compatibility issues!
We have CUES equipped bikes in the shop. Might just be crazy enough to test the 11sp chain thing. To my knowledge from Shimano trainings, any 11sp chain should work no problem. Will still test it myself, maybe tomorrow.
@@NeutralSupportNews Done. All I had on hand was KMC X11 and Sram PC1110 but both seemed to work fine. KMC might've been a bit noisier but no teeth sync or shift issues.
I'm curious to find out if CUES RDs work with non-cues shifters (11-speed MTB or 11-speed road Shimano shifters)? Similar thoughts about the FDs - did they make them match the new (11-speed and GRX) cable pull, or the "old" MTB pull? I've built myself mix-match compatibility charts, but yet to lay my hands on a CUES component... hopefully in a year or two when used stuff from Germany "trickles down" to Serbia - LOL. :) Relja
Definitely not compatible with Shimano existing 11-speed shifters of any group - this was not a move to be a salvation to older groupsets unfortunately. They changed the cable pull so dramatically from their previous set ups. There are a couple of people who have mixed and matched some stuff in the comments here and claim success... but nothing so direct as 11 speed road brifter with Cues drivetrain etc.
You mentioned that if a customer had an older drivetrain that they could buy the appropriate shifter/rear derailleur from Cues, but wouldn't they also need a Cues cassette? It seems that the spacing would be different than the older groups. It seems to me that folks who are serious riders, ought to simply buy a couple groups of whatever they are currently running. Thanks for the info!
If you add an 11 speed friction shifter. There is nothing stopping you from using any narrow wide 11 speed crank coupled with any wide range rear derailleur. Then you just use the preferred CUES/LG cassette and chain combo to take advantage of that harder wearing chain and cassette. It’s a little fidgety with the friction shifter when engaging the larger cogs and you gotta play with the B-Tension a bit. It’s a different story if you are setting up a customer’s bike, best to keep it all in the CUES/LG system while only supplementing with a fancier crankset but if it’s your own bike then you can deal with the quirks. Thank you for the clarity on the pull ratios compatibility. Your videos always explain concepts in an easy to understand way.
I work at a shop and still have yet to see more of this group. We built up one new bike that came stock with it. Like most new bikes we get it came with a KMC chain. Shifting felt rather clunky. And after switching to a Shimano linkglide chain, it still felt just as clunky. It hits the gears and once you're in them, they both felt equally smooth. But it just seems cues just has a rougher shift than most of their other groups
I've heard that it's "more tactile" (clunky) like SRAM a few times now - I wonder if it's the shift cable ratio that makes it feel clunky. By all accounts the interaction between the chain and cassette should be the same as the other 11 speed groups (smooth), but it isn't. Maybe tooth profile. 🤷♀️
@@NeutralSupportNews it's quite possible that it's the tooth profile being taller maybe? Higher engagement for e-bike drivetrains? Also, in comparison to SRAM transmission, the shifting on that felt sluggish. But I read somewhere that it was that way by design so it could shift well under load. So I wonder if that's a similar consideration for cues
I'm pretty sure the reason for the bad shifts are the CUES/LG cassettes, they probably have a new tooth design compared to HG. 90% of the new e-bikes I work on have CUES/LG on them, I tried LG, KMC and HG 11-speed chains on them and all of them shift the same. The only OKish one is the LG XT derailleur paired with the 50T cassette, but still no match to a HG XT. On my own bike I recently switched to 11-speed HG Deore with the 50T HG cassette and a LG chain for durability and cost reasons and it shifts as well as with a HG chain.
Thanks a lot for your explanations on Shimano Cues. I am not really convinced, that I like the new thing. Like you said: it is just more. But maybe I am not the targeted customer anyway, as I like to use old parts for many of my restomods ;-) Please keep up your great videos. Greetings from Germany
great overview, thanks for doing the homework on it. For me I'm also super far behind on the latest technology, but I'm sure I'll be back to re-watch this sometime in the future.
Good info and something I've wondered about since my LBS first suggested looking at CUES as a solution for an old Sora groupset that was getting a little tired, which was confusing since none of it had drop bar controls....
The engineering question I really want answered is why change the cable pull compared to one of the existing formats? I'm sure there's a reason but ouch
If I understand correctly, they moved to more cable travel per shift, which is useful because a given amount of error in the cable movement translate to less error in the derailleur movement. SRAM moved in that direction a while ago, so I think it's justified from an engineering point of view. It's a shame, however, that they didn't match SRAM's 1:1 ratio, but went slightly different. While there are trade-offs-easier to make a compact shifter that pulls less cable-it seems like this was chosen to avoid compatibility with SRAM. Unless SRAM has a patent on a 1:1 ratio and they are avoiding conflict with the patent.
@@charliesullivan4304That makes sense, but I wonder how different the cable travel is compared to any existing Shimano format. Like how does it compare to 10 speed, or anything already out there.
The optimist in me says really excited engineer is seeking to constantly iterate and improve upon the design - the pessimist says if you make the cable pull backwards compatible it will "resurrect" a bunch of old parts that do not generate revenue for the company.
If Lennard and the Internet are to be believed (trust internet people?? Never!) - SRAM 11speed shifter is 2.9mm of cable to move the 3.72mm distance. Shimano Cues is 3.5mm to move 3.74. Wildly different, also interesting marketing on 1:1. The Cues is closer to 1:1 by that logic. I do have an 11 speed SRAM shifter laying around in the shop, maybe I'll do a realworld verification of that number...
I don't think they're getting rid of Deore, as there is this M5130 and M8130 linkglide groupsets. I saw some comments that they feel a bit sturdier than the Cues versions. I ordered the M5130 stuff with an LG400 cassette so I'll see if it works, although I don't have any CUES stuff to compare it with. Nor do I have a 11 speed chain to try, unfortunately. But the LG500 says it will work with linkglide 10/11 or hyperglide 11, so I don't think the chain matters much.
My main question is can I replace my U4000 9 speed derailleur with a U6000 10/11 speed derailleur while keeping the 9 speed 11-46 cassette and 9 speed shifter. Unfortunately, I just bought a bike with the 9 speed ques on it, and the u4000 derailleur does NOT have a clutch and therefore drops chains to easy when on rough trails. The U600 derailleur does have a clutch. From what I can gather i might be able to pull this off by using a different limiter screw to make the proper adjustment.
That low limit would be the factor, you're right. It may even just work without modification of the limit screw (I don't know, but I have limited more than 2 gears off a derailleur with a broken cable before so not outside of the realm). The shifting would definitely work correctly. Just the limits would be the wild card.
I'm sure they are banking on the association with the looks! 11-speed brifters pull something like 2.14mm per click (a 1.7 ratio). The Cues system needs 3.5mm per click to move the correct distance - hopefully they drop the road version before too long
I guess one of the biggest benefits to Cues is being able to shift under load, which is awesome, EXCEPT I'm guessing eventually if you are shifting under load a ton you are going to end up in a bike shop with a bent derailleur hanger. I've got a 11-speed SLX derailleur on my bike and I've bent two derailleur hangers now just from shifting under load. I will say I do eventually plan on switching to Cues, specifically the U8000 series for the durability and plus the derailleurs just look badass, all blacked out and stealth fighter looking lol.
I'm currently using 4700 Tiagra shifters with a Grx rear derailleur (RD-GRX812) and a very old FD-2300 in the front with a Sram X5 42-28 crankset, none of this was "compatible" according to Shimano.. what I mean is: just try and see if it works, most of the times it simply does !!
with the shifter and derailleur interchangeable, why not just make 1 shifter and 1 derailleur that can shift through all 9 to 11 speeds, and with same chain, it's then up to customer to pick whether to use 9 , 10, or 11 speed cassette, making that the only variable, with current situation, might as well just get 11 speed derailleur and shifter and then switch between 2x10 or 1x 11 or 2x11
If interchangeability and simplification was really the goal, this was my feeling as well. I understand that chain wrap will vary potentially leading to the need for a few different derailleurs - but it looks more like just an addition of essentially 3 groupsets instead.
Thanks for the video. I doubt you can patent cable pull ratios. Given that, I'm surprised that someone like Microshift doesn't produce a line of shifters that are easily cable pull and speed adjustable by a mechanic or a reasonably competent end user. I know you can do this somewhat easily with SRAM brifters. I'd love to see Shimano get screwed like this as I can't conceive of a good engineering reason to change the cable pull ratios.
Considering all of the aftermarket shifters, it certainly seems like you can't. It would be cool to have a more elegant solution than a Jtek or Tanpan to mix and match shifters with other derailleurs. Also a fun engineering problem 🤔
@@NeutralSupportNews I don't think so. Ratio Technology sells some conversation kits for SRAM. Btw, it seems like cues is running on 1.3 pul ratio. I think that's the same as SRAM exact actuation shifters. I'm not spending the $ to figure it out, but someone will soon I suspect.
@@NeutralSupportNews MicroShift has drop bar shifters (SB-M100, SB-M110) that are to be paired with Shimano 10/11 spd mountain bike rear derailleurs. Only hitch is they only work with cable actuated brakes.
Thanks. This was informative & educational - and fun to watch. :) Could you confirm the cable pull info (that CUES differs from any of the existing stuff) - is there a Shimano docs link explaining it, or did a Shimano tech. provide the info - or (probably best) did you get to test one yourself? Relja
I didn't find an "official" document with exact measurement. Verbal confirmation that it is different combined with posted measurements others have taken to suggest it is 3.4mm cable pulled for 3.7mm of pulley movement - so getting closer to 1:1 than previously, but not quite. There are published pull ratios of older stuff on Sheldon Brown and Lennard Zinn's site - all of which seem to show that nothing is truly compatible with anything else ha! There are some anecdotes in these comments of people getting stuff to work outside of the suggested combos.
At first I thought "oh cool a multi-purpose groupset with great cross-compatibility", but once you dive into the specs it immediately becomes clear that this groupset is designed to force all the existing parts below 12-speed into obsolescence and to prevent other companies from making Shimano-compatible parts. Shimano is becoming like Apple where the high quality and clever engineering of their products starts to be overshadowed by their diabolical attempts to control the market and domineer the consumers.
RD-M5100 + SL-M4100-IR integrated shifter indexes fine over 10 CUES Linkglide gears. CS-LG400 and 300 are heavy but durable for training. Narrow CUES chainline is more efficient than HG. CS-LG700-11 has the desirable alloy spider, cutting off the 50T saves weight leaving 10 speeds and 11-43 for lighter, durable 2x use. I-Spec EV shifter is easily changed out so that a lightweight 11 speed cassette and shifter can be swapped in as desired without replacing derailleur and chain. Using KMC X11 chain.
Interesting 🤔 I hadn't thought about the narrower chainline aspect, it probably does shift/ride better than, say, a traditional 9 speed cassette, in the extremes.
The Cues lineup was created because ebikes are hard on the drive train. Shimano probably saw that the people buy ebikes and traditional basic bikes with Acera like groupsets don't care about weight. Many people that buy these basic bikes tend to grind gears when shifting and Cues will help with the lifespan of the drivetrain.
I agree with that - I don't think Cues is a bad product. I also don't think that it simplifies anything from a product standpoint, despite them saying it does. I'm all for longevity in parts!
I'm glad they nuked Altus, Acera, Alivio. That being said, Deore M4100 10 speed and M5100 11-speed are reliable, interchangeable, relatively light, and dirt cheap. These heavy CUES components can't properly replace those.
I hope they did, but I'll wait to see if it really comes true. With how many crappy bikes out there spec those cheap derailleurs - seems like a cash cow for them. I'll bet they, at minimum, have already manufactured enough of those for the end of time 😅
They made different derrailleurs with the difference in the cages, for sure. The Pulley Cage is the one that accomodates chain wrap and there is no solution to this other than to make 8 variances to accomodate all combinations as difference in length will make the min and max limits be different. Unless you can buy a pulley cage for it, there's no choice. And why they dont just make swappable cages, thats a problem with logistics. That move will have them make complete derrailluers and separate cages which will cost them hefty sums adding to limitations storage and inventory.
Min-max is different, and creates different derailleurs - that part makes sense. It just seems like they also made multiple "speeds" for each derailleur instead of just an 11-speed compatible variant that would work with 9-11 speeds for each chain wrap capacity. Maybe 5 derailleurs could have covered it.
@@NeutralSupportNews They cant, I believe. That's why the 11 speed can be set as a 10 speed but not 9 speed. The current tech in the limit screws are the limitations. Longer limit screws are needed for this, and I'm sure there're other things that need to be developed for that idea to work.
Point taken. I'm excited for more CUES to be around so people start experimenting more with its "extralegal" abilities - I'm sure we'll all get to learn more about what it is capable of and what modifications can be made to it to make it work in ways Shimano maybe didn't intend! For now, it's a cut-and-dry addition of essentially 3 heavy duty groupsets.
A quick glance, pick out a chain for a bike, throw it on and it shifts terrible! Mechanics (and consumers even) have to be even more attentive to which groupset is on a bike. No longer as easy as cog count = chain. And if a customer walks into a shop just to get a chain, the shop may not ask all the questions to get to the right one. A new layer on the onion! And the power of education.
