Tech Tricks: Why Cleat Float May Solve Your Knee Pain!

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Knee pain is a common frustration of many cyclists and there is normally a multitude of reasons, all with a solution. A common question we get asked a lot here at GCN is, do I need float in my cleats? Ollie is here to answer with help of physiotherapist and bike fitting guru Phil Burt - who has over 12 years of experience working with British cycling and team sky!
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KNEE PAIN is a common frustration of many cyclists and one that can often be eliminated with a correct bike fit and pedal set up, and a question we get asked a lot here at GCN is, do I need float in my cleats?
Today’s your lucky day, Ollie is going to answer that and more and tell you everything you need to know about floated cleats and fixed cleats and how they impact knee pain with the help of physiotherapist and bike fitting guru Phil Burt - who has over 12 years experience working with British cycling and team sky!
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15 июл 2024

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Комментарии : 107

@rbonn3880 2 года назад

This was so worth watching, Ollie. Had NO idea that Shimano cleats came in 3 different designs. And Phil Burt is absolutely the best. Every time I see him, I pay attention because he knows his stuff and can explain it so anyone can understand.

@ashleycraiglozada2550 2 года назад

When I first started using cleats, i used the included 0° float and just followed the "general rule of thumb" to position the middle of the cleats to your bone in your pinky toe and it's just fine for me. No knee pain or whatsoever. Then I switched to a 4.5° float and I reverted back to the 0° because mainly I just like the "feeling" of it, more secure and I think I'm more in control of the bike

@richaw6689 2 года назад

Hi Ollie.. Watching this vid has been very useful and some good info from Phil.. he’s a great guy, met him at work once.. I’m thinking of switching from Shimano to Speedplay on a new (yet to arrive) bike.. Between the two of you, you clear-up most if not all of my unresolved questions, many that seem to be what puts most people off using them - too much room for adjustment.. With the facts and detail from Phil it’s clear you just need an understanding of what float is, then dial in what works for you (ie the amount on your current Shimano cleats) and bingo - no more one-sided clip-in issues! I’ve been trying different saddle heights lately too and it takes a fair few rides to get it right. We’re talking MM’s here BTW.. it’s the only time I think I could have felt like Eddie!! I’ve never yet experienced knee pain (touch wood..!) but have always had a set-back cleat position for power rather than comfort.. useful to know that can affect your knees too.. Thanks!

@danielfontes3120 2 года назад

Having had Meniscus Surgery on Both knees..... I have in the past always ridden with mid range float for knee Recover and to building Leg Strength . But now as Phil said Proper set up, cleat positioning, Bike Fit plus Trial and Error have put me at Now Using only "Fixed Cleats" They have proven to limit the movement in my leg and pedale Stroke alighment. Which has helped to set my knee in a Fixed position. and ease joint aggravation. Thank GCN!!! PS.... Rode Up Mt Lemon for my 60th BD in Nov. :)

@JwallzMTB 2 года назад

i also have had meniscus surgery, i dont have knee pain yet but i had the injury fixed when i was about 22-23 and im now 31 which makes me still 'young' but as i get older they predicted arthritis after 30. im just curious when you had your surgeries and did the mid range float start to hurt your knee and thats why you went to fixed? i ride with float as well just because i always have been, but again im all for what other people have to say and their advice.

@DeStraatz 2 года назад

@@JwallzMTB I had 50% of my miniscus removed when I was about 20, and was told to stop playing football or i would have arthritis by 25, I stopped that year but played for fun about a year or 2 later. Im 27 going 28 this year and I can feel my knee on cold winter days when I dont cover up or have a bad warm up/cool down. I have 2 degrees float, I feel that it keeps my knee relatively still otherwise it starts to flop all over the place exacerbating the issue.

@JwallzMTB 2 года назад

@@DeStraatz even 'low impact' sports like cycling still cause problems.. which sucks.

@danielfontes3120 2 года назад

@@JwallzMTB Sorry it took some time to reply . It was not that I was experience an extreme amount of discomfort with Float. It was more of an issue of Efficient Biomechanics and understanding that for me. Limiting the movement in my lower leg translated to a more efficient Leg alignment The knee still gets sore (Some) But its cool. Im Old and Fit sooo Im working with what I got. Diet and Lots of CBD , Yoga and Dynamic Stretching Keeps me comfortable on my long rides. Limiting ( Night shade) Veggies or Gluten works for me!!! :) Good Luck

@jeffheck5559 2 года назад

I've been using Speedplay pedals since they came out. I have the Zero model that can be set to no float but are still adjustable. I like how you can keep your heels from hitting the chainstays and still have outward float.

@Taz86 2 года назад

I started with 4.5* Look Keo cleats and went to 0* float last July. I absolutely love them, they keep my ankles in a more stable position and therefore keep my knees in line. And, unclipping is MUCH easier in an "oh shit" moment, compared to the much longer motion to get out with 4.5 float cleats. The extra half second has resulted in me on my ass, which hasn't happened since I switched. Mind you, I also had a computerized GURU fit and bought my current bike based on the results of that, which took into account my 0 float cleats and 165mm crank arms, and my fitter put my cleats where they need to be. Actually, he said he'd prefer to put me further back, which I might try.

@tommccafferty5591 2 года назад

I used Speedplay Frog pedals for over 20 years. I injured my left knee in 1967, when I was 17 years old. I had a lot of knee surgeries, culminating in a total joint replacement in 2001, and had the other knee replace in May, 2021. I loved the free float provided by the Frogs. But when Wahoo purchased Speedplay, they stopped making the Frogs and stopped making replacement cleats as well. So late last year I had to switch to Look X Track pedals. They offer some float, and my knees haven't ached any more than they did when I was using the Frogs, but I do miss the Frogs.

@KenSmith-bv4si 2 года назад

I'll be 66 this June, and tank da gawds my knees are OEM. I have 4 degrees of float with my grey Look cleats.

@chris1275cc 2 года назад

Some people need to decrease/eliminate float to avoid knee pain, some people need to increase it. I suppose it depends on the root cause. If your knee pain is caused by repetitive movement then allowing the joint a little more rotational freedom might help (which is what Phil was getting at unless I'm mistaken) If its a rotational injury/problem then preventing as much rotation as possible makes sense. I do think people should pay more attention to cleat position before assuming they need to change the float though.

@KotzmannWolfgang 2 года назад

I've been riding a 70% midfoot position for years and I'm very happy with it. More power on the mountain, more power in the sprint. Higher cadence with harder gears.

@richarddechau4200 2 года назад

Ollie I am 68 and have ridden for over 50 some years. I remember getting bike fits back in the 70's and 80's that never tackled q-factor. In today's world all great bike fitters do. What I have found is float and q-factor go hand and hand. I like at least 3 deg's of float with some drag, and on my left foot I have a 1.5mm spacer on my peddle and 2.5mm spacer on my right along with the cleat all the way yo the inside of my shoe. Viewing from the top or straight on that stopped my knees from moving to the outside at the top of the stroke. All this is related to the hips. In your video at the top of the stroke it appears the right knee is moving to the out side more that the left side is. Just my opinion, I'm not a bike fitter so don't take my word for it, keep spinning those cranks. Rick D. Blessings

@SergioCristancho 2 года назад

phil burt ... innovation great channel... is what you need to know ... all of it. about bike fit... for dummies... like us.

@Darsithis 2 года назад

Funny enough, I saw a video recently about this, and I tried swapping back to yellow cleats, only to find the float gives me knee pain. I’m one of those rare ones where red cleats & no float are necessary to keep my legs like pistons. Gone is my knee pain!

@garysladek9110 2 года назад

Thanks Ollie, and GCN, always very clear and easy to understand information.

@martin-samsoe 2 года назад

I had a bikefit because of kneepain. Apparently my feet tend to drift a bit outwards when I pedal. My knees didn't like that, so cleats with no float actually helped me alot and removed kneepain.

@davidburgess741 2 года назад

I'm not the only one using M 540 mountain bike pedals on the road. Paired with the right road 2 bolt shoes, the cleat can be moved way back. - in the aero department but good for not slipping on coffee shop floors. + for the easiest bearing system to maintain and durable.

@itstrbo 2 года назад

I'm with you...i prefer the practicality of being able to walk over the 0.000003 watts gained by using the clown shoes lol...i understand if you're TdF level rider but if you're just a weekend warrior it's not worth slipping around the coffe shop floor every ride

@davidhellyer5353 2 года назад

Speedplay opened up full 15 very comfy, and I have never accidentally unclipped ever

@notreally2406 2 года назад

I go with the opposite approach. No float. Make a 2 jointed mechanical arm and affix it to a ball. Or make a 2 joint and affix it solid. Which one adds the slop that wears out the other joints?

@tn9274 2 года назад

not only the cleat float, i like shimano shoe because more adjustment for the cleat position. it can really help. wondering why other shoe brand keep making fixed bolt cleat position.

@jamesmerkel9442 2 года назад

115: If u hve a shoter crank shaft bc the belts u scewed in hve a drop down 1 or 2 petal so less knee bc less bending, like kids bike same crank.

@JohnsVintageRoadBikeGarage 2 года назад

I love the float in my Keo pedals. But while riding aggressively Im starting to prefer no float!

@EdwardGarcia-pe3hb 16 часов назад

Everyone is different. I have multiple cycling shoes and the cleats with the most float gives me knee pain

@shanezimmer_DCN 2 года назад

Really appreciate this video. I’d love to know what you guys think about shims/spacers for cleats for riders with leg length discrepancies. Cheers! #askgcntech

@autisticlife 2 года назад

Thank you this is helpful.

@darrylgodfrey9604 2 года назад

A good video, but I was surprised that there was no mention of cleat setup. Maybe I missed it, but it's so easy to setup the cleats in a way which will put your foot at an odd angle and all that stress gets transferred to the knee. I spent a couple of painful days hobbling around after a ride with badly setup cleats. Once I sorted that out (which I suspect is very individual), no knee pain at all. Worth thinking about before worrying about float - get the basics right.

@gcntech 2 года назад

Hi Darryl, You're certainly right it is mega important to get the cleat position set up correctly, can become a big issue if left unfixed. Here is a vid we made on the subject a little while back for anyone who resonates with this! ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-CvIuJok2VE8.html

@1mrudolf 2 года назад

would love to know whether any pro had a bike fit with a plumbline…. 🙄🤷🏻‍♂️

@jamesmckenzie3532 2 года назад

I can state: Yes. I've been fitted by a person who does fits for pros. He does this to make sure the saddle is set up properly.

@dave-ld8mo Год назад

Which knee float would be best after ACL injury?

@matt_acton-varian 2 года назад

I use zero float, not for power transfer but for unclipping. I cannot flex my ankles out to unclip very well and find that well positioned fixed cleats easier to unclip correctly and avoid a Matt Stevens Special. But I will stress that although I have never had a professional bike fit I am very careful with my bike setup so I know I will be comfortable for long periods.

@Taz86 2 года назад

Same. I started with 4.5 float Look Keo cleats and hated them. My LBS kept telling me "you won't like 0 float" to the point that they actually refused to sell them to me. I bought them on Amazon and never looked back

@billkallas1762 2 года назад

Never used float, never needed it. I've always used Black Delta cleats. Back in the 80's, it was determined that only 10% of riders really "needed" float.

@jameswitte5676 2 года назад

For those of us who were young in the 1980’s I bet that number is a lot higher now.

@billkallas1762 2 года назад

@@jameswitte5676 Before the mid 80's, everybody used "fixed" cleats, with toeclips and straps. Even with Professionals, who put in over 20,000 miles a year, few people developed knee problems.

@blubaughmr 2 года назад

@@billkallas1762 I started using cleats in the late 70's and no amount of adjusting would eliminate my knee pain. I filed the groove in the cleat into an hourglass shape, to provide some float, and presto! No more knee pain! I guess I'm in the 10%. I have Speedplays on the bikes that get ridden more than 25 miles at a time. Everybody is different.

@redwallace7934 2 года назад

I've come to believe my left leg needs the float my right leg doesn't no matter where I've positioned the cleats !!

@Dabelgi 2 года назад

I solve my knee pain with a bikefitting thé change my saddle beacause it to small the correct m’y position. Now with 2 week of little riding i have no pain !!!

@onilovni1234 2 года назад

Changing form Shimano SPD SL pedals to Speedplay really helped my knee pain because of the float and the ease of adjustment on the cleats.

@onehourmusicbc 2 года назад

But speedplays r expensive :( I'll probably go for look pedals one day if I go pedal power meters

@onilovni1234 2 года назад

@@onehourmusicbc I could not care less about the price of pedals to be honest and neither should you if they solve some knee pain.

@onehourmusicbc 2 года назад

@@onilovni1234 That's true. But idk if speedplays will solve my knee problem tho. Currently using 6 degrees float spdsl pedals.

@savagepro9060 2 года назад

Any old-schooler who used toe-clips back in the day, will tell you that float system is a veritable boon to knee pain. I can attest to that very much!

@genehackmann3205 2 года назад

100% I rode with stirrups forever, never had any pain

@jamesstobinski6144 2 года назад

So can I!

@savagepro9060 2 года назад

@@genehackmann3205 STIRRUPS? your horse did all the work, 🤣

@genehackmann3205 2 года назад

@@savagepro9060 cages with stirrups...

@savagepro9060 2 года назад

@@genehackmann3205 👊

@grindsman22 2 года назад

I discovered recently that my knee pain was triggered by a dairy allergy. Giving up dairy products cured the pain within a week. Another thing that helps are shorter crank arms, I now ride 165mm ones. Getting back on topic, my 80s white Look pedals with 0° float did eventually cause regular knee pain, Look started selling cleats with float and that really helped.

@5tanw0rr311 2 года назад

Guess what… I gave my bike a birthday present of a pair of Look Keo pedals… I installed the grey cleats with 4deg float and they are horrible! It feels like my feet want to slip off the sides of the pedal… so nasty.. back to 0deg float for me

@mightymouse4143 2 года назад

Hello and good day GCN Tech, I've been curious to know if crank arm length has an effect on knee pain? I mean, longer crank arms will cause a larger range of motion but also change the effects of torque through the pedals and in theory effect ones knees. I'm curious if this theory actually has any merit. Cheers! #askgcntech

@ferventheat 7 месяцев назад

Yes, shorter cranks will help both knee pain and hip flexion discomfort, allowing you to bend more into your tuck position. The shorter the better. I would recommend 160 up to 170 if you can find them, but there are services out there who can either drill and shorten cranks (typically 50 quid a pair), or provide a range of new crank arm lengths in your preferred chain ring bolt patterns. Don't use 175 unless you have very large legs or you go offroading

@VictorElGreco 2 года назад

This may be more of a GMBN topic but… the natural “float” of an SPD system is very comfortable.

@chrisridesbicycles 2 года назад

Very informative stuff Ollie. I have no problems with the knees but with the feet since I have a very high foot arch. I already have custom insoles but especially on hard intervals, my toes seem to rub agains the top of my shoes and give me sore toes. I‘d love to hear what Phil has to say about that.

@ShadowzKiller 2 года назад

Maybe you need shoes with more or less toe pitch.

@JayLato 2 года назад

Orbea Orca is a clean looking bike eh?

@playandteach 2 года назад

I get pain on the inside top of the knee. More or less at the tip of the quads. Only on my right knee. The reason that I haven't invested in a bike fit us that a very well respected bike fit guy in London says exactly the opposite from this advice in terms of saddle height. I use spd MTB pedals on 4 different road bikes all slightly different geometries and different shoes - all mainly to avoid an exact repetition of movement. It's easy to spend a bunch of cash and still get the wrong advice. I'm also loathe to go somewhere where they sell you £100 insoles and £250 shoes as a solution which may make no difference. Any recommendations in the North East of England?

@mikewow 2 года назад

I have the same. Problem started last year. Right knee at the inside of my knee, where the quad attach to your knee. Later in the right i kinda feel it under my knee where the tendon is. I did a bike fit last year, changed cleats, i have float and went to physiotherapy multiple times. And still i have discomfort riding my bike. On this point i just dont know what to do anymore. I am waiting for a call from the hospital to let a specialist look at it.

@playandteach 2 года назад

@@mikewow Sounds very similar. Hopefully someone will be along to offer a suggestion. I also try not to push big gears and climb out the saddle where I can. Very hilly here.

@derf9465 2 года назад

Remember bike fits of decades ago. Can you stand over it, off you go.

@stevezodiac491 2 года назад

After doing a Chris Froome 23 years ago and breaking my neck of femur and subsequent NHS fixation, my right leg is 17mm shorter than my left leg. I have never used height blocks on my short leg and have used both black and red look cleats over the years. I have never suffered from knee pain ever. I think that saddle height is the most important element, even with a short leg. The body adapts to injuries and I believe that to some extent I ride a kind of ' side sadle ' now but float has never been an issue to me after hundreds of thousands of miles riding, both before and after my accident. I also think that with fixed cleats, if you do not get them straight, you put more stress on the knee, because the knee then does not rotate in a circle as it should, being pulled on the side, I think that bad fitment can be the cause of knee pain, in this regard more float can eleviate bad alignment problems.

@duckylick 2 года назад

Ollie, not related, but no one should be allowed to have such FABULOUS hair, everyday, day after day! :-P

@nicolasremillard3491 2 года назад

#askgcntech Hi folks, after watching your 'Why Cleat Float May Solve Your Knee Pain', I was wondering if it's possible to extend your pedals' width position with an extension in order to have more float bandwidth. I walk like a duck and I suffer from severe knee pain after riding long distances with my feet being held in a parallel position for hours. I did get a bike fit, but it hasn't resolved the issue. I'm currently using Shimano PD-M540 model. Can I purchase something in order to get more comfortable?

@julianhawker7672 2 года назад

I believe its called "stance width" , Speed-play used to do different length pedal axles to dial this in. Try a search. Cheers.

@oOoACFREEMANoOo 3 месяца назад

@ 7:26 #bikefitjames smashes his screen.

@clintoncooper3427 Год назад

Time ATAC for life.

@Abnsdllnnlosnfd 2 года назад

Try using shorter cranks!

@jirdesteva 2 года назад

I've used many different styles of cleats and shoes over many years. I have found that flats pedals and a good pair of shoes have worked the best. Long rides or short no more knee pain. Your mileage may vary.

@petesmitt 2 года назад

6:48 I keep telling my wife this..

@MikeyV10 2 года назад

Float is the only way to go. It's not natural to have your feet in a fixed position while your body and bike move around. Imagine not being able to move your hands on the bars..... I've been mountain biking DH and trail with clipless pedals since 94' and no knee problems. Yes, this is a roadie channel but I think having float still makes sense, don't you ?

@simonpowell2559 2 года назад

Take a day or two to find your "sweet spot" then, when it works it works.

@askmeaboutmattweiner 2 года назад

The rallying cry of bike fitters: Yeah, weeell it depends.

@hillsview455 Год назад

Specialized sworks shoes gives you knee pain, avoid it.

@thethoughtmaster 2 года назад

I don't have cleats and think they are more trouble than they are worth but it's up to you what you like most. Mainly they were built to stop feet slipping off peddles but I focus more attention on keeping my feet on and that works, practice.

@derf9465 2 года назад

Worked for me, somewhere i changed cleats and suffered. Then followed a few videos and pain has gone on look keo 4.5

@mybrotherisnotapig6750 2 года назад

If Bike shoe manufacturers just made shoes that have holes in the middle like older bike shoes then most riders won't be experiencing knee and shoe pains.

@IlIllllIlllIlllll 2 года назад

all problems come from flexibility. Do massage using foam roller!

@igormitrovic8050 2 года назад

Do you know how much PSI to inflate RockShox Boxxer WC 2014 Solo Air for weight up to 50kg?

@giusepperigato1856 2 года назад

Buongiorno a tutti, sarà ma i miei Keywin titanio del peso di 230 grammi a coppia, tacchette e viti comprese , IO non li cambierei per nulla al mondo . Hanno tutto a favore : peso, prestazioni e prezzo . Per usare questi pedali hai bisogno di una laurea in ingegneria 😭😭

@jameswitte5676 2 года назад

Please cover float with mountain bike pedals.

@5tanw0rr311 2 года назад

I don’t have knee pain and I use and have used 0 degree float cleats for the past 30 years 😉

@davehudson5589 2 года назад

You never asked the obvious question… so why even use clipless peddles?! Flat pedals let you put your feet anywhere you want… is the power/performance of clipless worth it? Is there a video on that? He seemed to imply the gain is not that significant

@blubaughmr 2 года назад

ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-k7bB6t33oUY.html

@petermyers4409 2 года назад

They have done various videos comparing clipping in and flats. From what I remember from the last one I saw the power/ speed advantage of clipless over flats in is marginal if at all. But you can engage different muscles to different extents and thereby spread the impact by using clipless. Also it depends what you are used to or prefer in terms of feel. I've gone back and forth over the years trying to eliminate knees pain, but just had different knee pains with each system!

@herculesrockefeller8969 2 года назад

Get Speedplay. Your knee pain will disappear. I've been using Speedplay for 12 years, and have never had knee pain.

@marcalvarez4890 2 года назад

Ive been using EggBeaters for 18 years....zero pain.

@jamesb1717 2 года назад

I dislocated my knee last year. Not for the first time. I'm really afraid of going back to clipless. Any ones out there that don't require a twist of the knee to get out?

@chris1275cc 2 года назад

Magped and the Bythlon System, they seem weird and gimmicky but they always get good reviews from people who try them, I've only tried the Bythlon ones and only briefly and they felt fine and not how you would expect. The other (way cheaper) option is Shimano MTB pedals combined with their Multi release cleats, They still require a bit of a twist but nowhere near as much as road pedals do, you can twist inwards to release if you want and if you set the tension low you can just pull straight up out of them, this does however give you a very floaty feeling while riding.

@jamesb1717 2 года назад

@@chris1275cc Thanks for that. I had mountain bike spd pedals before but didn't know you could exit them either way. I had them at the loosest setting but there still was a fair bit of resistance getting out. Maybe I'll stick to flats! Cheers.

@chris1275cc 2 года назад

@@jamesb1717 Its the special cleats that make all the difference (Shimano SH56 Multi-Release Cleats) if you already have the SPDs and the shoes it might be worth a try for the sake of £14. Another thing I used to have on my commuter a few years back are those Zefal Half Toe-Clips I'll admit they look kind of naff but they give you most of that "being part of the bike" feeling and at £5 a set hardly a great loss if you don't get on with them.

@Jacob99174 2 года назад

Phil Burt = David Denman

@skyscraper5910 2 года назад

What do you mean by knee pain? The term is ambiguous and doesn’t tell you anything, therefore I have no idea who this is supposed to help.

@jgogl9791 2 года назад

Knee pain is a pain in the @rse.

@jameslee-pevenhull5087 2 года назад

Knee pain is due to under-developed cartilages. Take two paracetamol and come back in ten years. My first bike was in 1966, and I never, never get knee pain on any of my bikes. SPDs, SPD-SLs and clips & straps. A strong, rugged knee joint can't be bought with money. Ten years worth of good protein maybe...

@notreally2406 2 года назад

Knees over toes guy

@inquaanate2393 2 года назад

You can’t be putting skype call sounds in vids like that

@Woody321 2 года назад

I find I need more float on a trainer than I do out on the road

@joesho907 2 года назад

That intro music is something awful

@tinobommelino3376 2 года назад

Dear Ollie. I really watch a lot of the gcn videos. But lately I stop watching a lot of them half way through the video when it starts to become a commercial for your sponsors products. I understand that you have to promote your sponsors. But this is going too far. Starting a video somehow scientific and then turning it into a wahoo commercial after a few minutes is tricking people into buying stuff they probably don’t need. And rest assured I will never ever buy those wahoo pedals because it annoys me so much that you advertise them In any video you make. Just use the stuff of your sponsors and show it in the videos. But stop making yourself home shopping presenters. I really like you and I would love if the channel stays in a way that I can keep enjoying the videos.