I dont know how I ended up here on a pagan channel seeing as i'm very much atheist, but I'm glad to see a thriving community of pagans on youtube. I'm sure you get these kinds of comments often, but I genuinely support ya'll. We may not agree on belief, but your freedom to worship is my freedom to not worship.
No one: Absolutely no one: Ocean: There are 10 versions of theism Monotheists: *Breathes in deeply to say how your wrong.* Ocean: Atheism/agnosticism are a form of theism Some atheists: *Visibly triggered* Me: I dig this video.
To use the common analogy, not collecting stamps is a form of stamp collecting, the null form. Thus labelling it zero is totally appropriate. It is a position on Theism and so worthy of mention.
@@nothanniballecktor9633 That's why I put the qualifier *some* atheists. Some, no matter what, will see that as him saying, "Atheist is Theism," and they will come out of the woodwork to be like, "SJTUVJSNXKCNSKEK!"
Raised as a polytheistic Taoist and was previously a Taoist religious leader who slowly shifted to secular agnosticism and am a scholar of different religions, I'm actually happy you brought these definitions up since people don't understand, also interesting to see myself occupying different groups you covered on my journey.
Please tell me more about your upbringing! Was Chinese (folk) religiosity a part of it? Do you have a Chinese/Vietnamese/Sinosphere background ethnically?
You missed duotheism - the notion that two deities exist. The dichotomy can be male/female, good/evil, light/dark, living/dead, above/below, spiritual/physical. It's got to do with how humans think and categorize things.
Duotheism is practically my believe. I believe in the God of the principle of existence and in the God of the principle of nonexistence. Like the day is defined by the presence of the sun and the night defined by the absence of the sun. I believe the entire universe works trough presence and absence. But I believe this duality is harmonic and not a duality of good and evil.
Having spent several years as an omnist-pantheist I always liked to describe it as being the center of a venn diagram of all the religions in the world. The parts that overlap are considered to be the "universal" truths, and doctrines that are unique to one tradition are considered to be extrapolated by that particular community. It's actually very interesting how buddhism is often called "the middle way", and my friends and I in the omnist-pantheist community always consider it to be the closest actual religious tradition to the center of the venn diagram.
Hey Ocean! Would you be willing to make a video/videos about some of your own spiritual experiences and how you came to believe what you do? That would be really interesting!
This really helped me out in putting a label to my belief system: I am Christian, but I recognize other gods or god-like beings exist. I guess now I am able to call myself a monolatric Christian. I've also pissed off athiests in arguments over God's existence by meeting them halfway with "I cannot prove to you that God exists any more than you can prove to me that he doesn't so we are both right while simultaneously being wrong. It is a Schrodinger's God problem. I have faith God exists just like you have faith He doesn't exist, as such you - like me - believe in a religion based solely on faith and I'm ok with that." I guess the Atheists I spoke with don't even like being recognized as being part of a religion, but oh well
The Judeans would be monolatric, not just in allowing for the existence of foreign gods, but in that their main sects believed differently: Zealots held to a kind of reincarnation (as with Elijah's spirit passing to Elisha), Essenes believed in a spiritual afterlife, Sadducees* in no afterlife, & Pharisees in a physical resurrection. These correspond with the cherubim (Lion, Ox, Man Eagle) in the Tabernacle, while the covenant is with the One who speaks from "between the cherubim". *The 'Heirs of Zadok' (the sect which anointed kings, organised trade, led the army, wore the ephod...) throw a spanner in the works for atheists who argue that God is pie in the sky when you die.
Same! Though in my case I am also very, very much an animist, and have some slight elements of Omnism and possibly some slight elements of Perrenialism, as I actively worship the Chrisitian God, but believe in the existance of other gods, and thus that other religions all have elements of truth to them as a result, as well things that aren't true because things get butchered or misinterpreted over time (this does include my own religion, as the bible has been butchered A LOT.) I believe that there are universal truths that religions stem from and that various religion founders were communicating these truths, but not that they all stem from one singular divine being, because as I previously stated I believe in the existance of multiple divine beings.
Hi. Agnostic atheist here. I think I can explain why "you have just as much faith as I do" is a bit of a berserk button for some atheists. When soon to be ex-Christians start asking questions one of the hand wave explanations we get from other Christians is "well, God hasn't revealed Himself to you because you didn't have enough faith". Basically, if bad things happen to good people and we wonder why, we get shut down with "you didn't pray/believe/tithe hard enough". So our faith (or lack thereof) is constantly pulled out as the measuring stick to show how we don't measure up. Consequently one of our first steps in deconversion is to deligitimize that measuring stick, to say "fine, you say I don't have enough faith? How about if I have none!". I think you can imagine how infuriating it would be to leave Christianity and that toxic metric behind only to have Christians turn around and say "you have just as much faith as I do!". We've removed the knife and you're unknowingly jabbing it back in and twisting it. Incidentally, I agree with Ocean putting atheism as type 0. One of the analogies we use to explain our position on faith to theists is that if religions are TV channels, atheism is "off". To me, atheism is the null hypothesis while a theistic position is a positive position on the question. If each type of theism was a variable in an experiment, atheism would be the control.
Well being an omniest I see all religions and beliefs including atheism as equally valid, if you're a monotheists you can think of it like, God created every human equally and gave them different perspectives doesn't that mean that all perspectives are equal
Hey ocean I’m Hindu and where would you put Hinduism? I’ve heard monotheistic and polytheistic (sometimes at the same time) though I feel it’s more pantheistic. What do you think? Also will you ever do a video on Hinduism? My faith gets left out a lot in both the atheist and Abrahamic centered discussions both online and even in day to day life.
It depends on the school of Hinduism. I'd put it in polytheism simply because there are multiple gods, even if they are avatars. From what I've read it seems to be a mixture of Pantheism and Idealism in addition to Polytheism. It's a really interesting religion that the more I read about, the more I realize I don't know about it.
It is pretty complicated and like i said definitely a little left out lol. Id even listen to criticism but there doesn’t seem to be that many atheists or christians who can/will do more than mock my religion and not come at it with any good faith but perhaps thats true with your beliefs as well.
I personally feel pantheistic but as with most hindus I believe there are many paths to one truth so I respect other beliefs as others paths. Though there are definitely other faiths who will argue with me but I believe we all have a “god” we just worship different.
@jessie s. Yes Hinduism has a lot of dieties by Dillon’s definition as put forward by ocean; however, it’s more accurate to call them avatars. It’s like there’s one main god (bramhin) who is everything and Brahmin is split into three parts (like a trinity) which represent the creator (Brahma), the preserver (Vishnu), and the destroyer (shiva). Each takes many forms as well as having wives who take many forms and each form having a wife as well. Plus there are avatars created from other avatars (such as lord Ganesha). But all this contributes to the complexity of Hinduism. TLDR there’s 1 “essence” of the universe, three main avatars or dieties who each have 9 forms and each form has a wife. Also lord Ganesha. The main ones to know would be Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva, Krishna, Rama, Sita, laxmi, Buddha, parvoti, Durga, Kali, and Ganesha, though there are many many more
When I was young, I used to believe that all the gods existed and all the religions were just regional, but true. And praying to each and any god will give you the same results. Being born in Southern part of India where three religions Christianity, Islam, and Hinduism, are spread almost equally, even if Hinduism is the majority, and the religious stories, practices, and scriptures of each religion are familiar to everyone, I took the understanding that all the gods of all the religions were real, just local gods, but still real. Even if I grew out of religious beliefs later on, it was a fun way of seeing the gods and people around you.
love the shamelessclickbaity title, although slightly disappointed that it wasn't any more unbelievable than all the others - I was expecting something really out there like mickjaggerism, the worship of the self while performing awkward gyrations and lip jerks. Or trumpism - very similar but with less gyration and more jerk.
This video just made me realize how weird I am 😂🤣. I cycle through many states constantly in an internal debate about spirituality and gods. I start out as a Omnistic Polytheist at first who believes each god Represents Archetypal ideals in a very Jungian/Platonic Archetypal sense. THEN this turns into A Omnist Pantheistic Animist. Sense Then I realize said Archetypes define how WE define the Universe and therefore map and territory tends to get mixed up mainly due to our labeling of logic and language onto stuff being there in the first place (like for Example Maths! Which describes the Universe perfectly yet we don't know whether it is just a tool, or if we descovered it and it already was apart of the Universe...). And, Then I start to think to myself "Hol Up, If these gods are Archetypal Ideals that define how we define the Universe, and Archetypes that quite possibly define the Universe itself.... And, If the Definition of Omnipotences application is a matter of Perspective due to Relativity of Projective planes/Points of View when it comes to logic, and with Omnipotences definition being vague enough to ALSO cause said differences in levels of Omnipotence + the fact that some quoted as Omnipotent Gods can beat other Omnipotent Gods seemingly as seen in real world religions. Then doesn't this all add up into meaning you can TECHNICALLY do this vague Omni process ad infinium until you get almost a super hybrid god made of all the Possible Infinite Archetypal possibilities of gods???" Which then causes a shift into Omnistic Monetheistic Panenthiest due to this line of reasoning THEN I start to realize said Interpretation Vagueness makes this no different then Omnistic Polytheism. And, Then I realize that since then if all gods are real in an Archetypal sense, then it's no different then if no gods are real kicking me into being an Agnostic for a bit... Then I realize that this makes no sense when combined with Religious History since we can't just ASSUME all of these Religious situations are metaphors since we must follow Occam's Razor. Which Kicks me back into Omnistic Polytheism, and then I rinse and repeat this process 24/7 over time, again, and again, and again har har har Damn imma mess 😂🤣🤦.
Tbh i really, really like your vids. I am not even pagan, i am completely an atheist but i really apprecciate that good video quality regardless of the topic. The educational videos are great and the videos about paganism are very interesting and insightful even for someone completely irreligious.
If the secret was real, crazy people would be gods on earth... Ive met a guy who survived a suicide attempt and started to believe he was immortal... His belief was so pure and he thought of it all the time... If the secret was right, no one would be able to kill him ever... I mean, no one did yet, but how many people thought they could fly and faceplanted fromm a roof?
Ocean, this was nicely put together! I love learning stuff like this. And it shows our likeness far outweighs our difference! And I mean all living things, too. 👏🐙🐬💝☮️🎃
Thanks, this was really great and taught me a lot about stuff I thought I had a handle on. I really enjoy the educational content and look forward to more of it.
I'm a pantheist who finds it useful to portray different aspects of the All with various deities who although symbolic and not literal help us connect to the one divine reality that is identical to the Universe itself.
With regards to the polytheistic expression of my pantheism, I find I gravitate to the Greek gods most of all. Although I also find Cernunnos to be a powerful symbol of nature, wild and mysterious.
Funny now your face is in all the videos!!! I think It was a good choice, it's awesome to see your channel from this point to today. Thanks again for sharing all this awesome content 🙏🏽
Henotheism applies well to hermeticists, zoroastrians, and likely other systems/practices I've yet to come across. I think it's the only one that really fits with hermeticism at all.
It says something about your videos that I often find myself rewatching them years later. Thank you for the depth of thought you put in each of them, I hope you keep going for a long time!
I'm a year late on this, but I'm following a spiritual journey and researching various religions. For now I would consider myself Monolatry, but I feel an odd pull to the Norse God's. I've been questioning my own faith (raised Christian) for a while now. Why would that one God wait thousands of years while hundreds of various other gods are being worshiped before rebelling himself? Who's to say that there is only 1, and not thousands of God's in existence? My own personal religion and beliefs have been shaken in the last year and will continue to change as I learn more. Thank you ocean for the content you make, I found your page a few days ago and have watched many videos including your interesting live stream ok giants yesterday
Me too. My husband is Christian still and I'm not and it is been very difficult. I believe there is one ultimate god However I'm not sure about anything else I don't know where I stand I still pray but I refuse to pray to any human or human form. LOL 🤣 I don't know if I even have a religion. 🙄🤦🏼♀️😢
You have a great talent for summarizing difficult topics and making them digestible. Could one ask for such a summary/analysis of Naturalistic Paganism, Spiritual Naturalism, Nontheistic Paganism, Pagan Humanism, Spiritual Humanism, Atheopaganism, Secular Paganism and related paths, please?
I was actually omnist for a while, but i thought it was my own idea and i called it omnitheism. I believed that there were layers of reality born from human consciousness in which any conceived belief system was true depending on which layer you were seeing through, and that depended on what you personally believed.
Haven't. But an introductory to Heathenry video will be made in the future. I tried to write it a few weeks ago and it got more complicated than I thought it would be, so I'm revisiting it later. I want to get that one right.
In a comment on another video, I described myself as "some kind of agnostic Pagan/Christian syncretistic mish-mash". On this list, I think Omnism is the one closest to what I believe.
I really enjoy the starving donkeys analogy for agnosticism! Its a very accurate descriptor for how I felt for years before finding my place in heathenry. I was rejecting religion, or more accurately Christianity, while at the same time feeling that atheism didn't represent me adequately either. The analogy is hilarious and i feel it
I wonder how diverse people's religions would be if they knew the extent of their options in spirituality. I certainly didn't know all of this stuff and it would have really affected my views on religion as a kid.
I’ve heard of 7 out of 11 on your list! This was very interesting & educational. I took philosophy of religion in college where I learned most of these terms. The 4 terms I’ve never heard of are henotheism, monolatry, kathenotheism, & perennialism. I’ve also never heard of the term omnism but it is the same exact concept as pluralism. You could have made the list longer with words like deism, pandeism, & trinitarianism or shorter because 3 of these terms are different kinds of polytheism. Thanks for making this video!
The boundary between monolatrism and henotheism is pretty blurry. As a monolatric Christian, I believe that Christianity can't make sense unless it has a theology that is fully compatible with Judaism, at least in the broad outlines. Your description fits me pretty well! I have an odd relationship with mainstream Christianity, since I'm 100% small-o orthodox half the time and totally heretical the other half. This confuses them.
Great video, but you could have also mentioned Animatism, which is what I subscribe to. Animatism often gets lumped in with Animism but is not quite the same and even older. The Animatist position is "Everything is alive" as opposed to "Everything has a spirit/soul".
@@petrfedor1851 It is. It may sound very counterintuitive but the subject matter of biology, despite its name, is not actually "life". The subject matter of biology is organisms. For instance, there was this controversy if viruses are a form of life. It doesn't really matter though because all the biologist needs to know is if viruses are organisms, which they are. The question what life is is essentially a metaphysical question that biology with its means can not answer.
It should be mentioned that judaism isn't necessarily monolatrous. I held that belief but the rabbi I was converting under explicitly said that that belief would bar me from being jewish. So often the theological opinion there is monotheist (and that seems to be the majority worldwide) but there are monolatrous ideas. Depends on the community
I'm a Traditionalist Latin Mass Catholic. I think Faith is a virtue and NOT the sole requirement for salvation. I believe in the Experiential element as Ocean Keltoi elaborates and I'm open to Polytheistic and Henotheistic positions. Id est, The Trinity, Angels and Saints I think it's foolish to discount the presence of Spirits that are neither Angels or Demons. Ođinn, as one of these Spirits that can incarnate or act as a disembodied mind/personality and provide patronage (or scorn), is within the realm of my Christianity. (Þor, Tyr, Freyr, Saturn...) Panentheism and Perennialism also have their place in my worldview.
Just have to say, thank you for this explanation, one of my closest friends is a Kemetic polytheist and i have always had a hard time wrapping my head around her beliefs, but looking at her explanations with this info in mind it makes a lot more sense now. Have a wonderful day :)
I'd love to hear your thoughts on autotheism, the left hand path, and Gnosticism and how they have developed in the west under Thelema, Setianism, and Luciferianism. The problem of evil under those ten types would be great also as a follow up.
Amazing video as always. You consistently impress me with not only your knowledge but your inclination to bridge divides even when creating distinctions. A couple questions as always: 1) Do Catholic Saints fit the description of God you use for this video? (just curious) 2) A number of authors have played with the idea that Gods are stories but stories have supernatural power (Neil Gaiman, Robert Heinlein, for example) are you aware of any traditions that genuinely believe this and if so where would that fit in with your categories? Thanks as always!
I'm not aware of any tradition that puts the power in the stories themselves, but it's possible that there's a shamanic tradition of sorts that may interpret stories this way. As for saints, they sorta fit the definition, but the idea of the gods is that their minds would be more highly evolved than humans. Catholic saint veneration is more akin to ancestor worship than polytheism. Except in some cases it seems that some saints are pagan gods turned into saints. So there's a mixture there.
I'm not quite monolatric, as I worship both Loki and Apollo, but I relate to the attitude. I acknowledge the rest of the pantheons may exist, I just don't really care to know them. Some I'm indifferent towards, some like Zeus I actively do not like.
Well, I did work with Hel briefly last summer, and she was cool. There's just nothing we need or want from each other anymore. And I just have no energy and see no point in worshipping a deity if the connection isn't there.
Ah so now I know how to properly describe my views a little better! Omnist heavily leaning/biased towards pantheism! Thanks for the knowledge as always!
you should look into wahdat al-wujud. the Universalist branch of Sufi Mysticism; which it itself is the mystical aspect of islam. It's very similar to Pantheism, very interesting
@Ocean Keltoi Great! Now I have to go read about these things. I have a really solid start though, I do not qualify as Agnostic or atheist... so ...yeah? Unfortunately I think I qualify as about five of these, but with justification of not cherry-picking but with a theory of cohesion. Still, very pro, very informative... well done sir! Peace.
Seriously more people need to learn that there are more types of theism than mono-, poly- and atheism. I recently got into an argument with a pantheist, who told me, a person he knew to be an athiest, that I should entrust my worries to a higher power. God, or nature, or what ever I felt comfortable calling it. I got mad, because I do not appreciate being told I should make up an imaginary friend to tell my non existen worries to. Turns out he thought himself to be an athiest and therfore assumed a belive in nature as a higher power was in line with "atheismdom". His word not mine. Anyway, just came back here to check I didn't mix up pantheism and panentheism. This was the first place I heard that term.
I suppose I am agnostic but I used to be a Christian. I was a history buff in school which led me to ancient cultures which led me to their religions. In college I stepped away from Christianity because I saw the world for what it was. I have friends who are all over the map with their religions (one friend is a witch, another is Christian, another is Asatru, etc.) and I have found myself leaning toward the Norse gods. But I can’t shake the evolution thing. We could meet in the middle and say that it was guided evolution.
Gia was Mother Earth, aka earth goddess, aka goddess of the heart. Pan represents the stars and, in other words, the mind, and in other words, the ancestors and how they speak to us. Yout welcome. Also, I know I spelled Gia wrong. Anyhow, when the heart and mind are as one, it's pangea. Hence, when all men and women and land are connected.
Hey Ocean, are you familiar with the content of Survive the Jive? He’s a pretty good RU-vidr and makes historical accurate content on ancient European religions and beliefs.
I watched one of his videos, it was about cheddar gorge in England. I thought it was pretty damn good, but then I looked down in the comments and the top comment was some nazbol bs about how the media making a big deal about cheddar man not being white was an attempt by the capitalist class to justify immigration and remove british people's natural right to the british isles. (Imagine claiming you hate capitalism but still believing land should be privately owned lol.) Instead of calling this out for what it was, Survive the Jive cave the comment a like and his response was along the lines of "sounds crazy but it might be true!" And that's when I did a complete 180° and I haven't watched one of his videos since. Sure, he makes good content, but I don't think it's morally justified to give someone who openly expresses such toxic views support, because then you're basically just allowing him to spread those views without any repercussion.
Ok. Well this video and it's timing are very interesting. I actually do use the term Henothiest to describe myself however. After watching this video it is very possible that I am misunderstanding the definition of the word. Would you be willing to point me in the right direction to find out more about the full definition of henothiest. I'm no longer confident that I am using it correctly. But thank you for making this video. You may have helped me correct an error.
Oh that's interesting. I've always thought that my tradition, Mormonism, was polytheistic, but by this definition Mormonism is actually Monalatric. There is an infinite number of gods, each with their own world or universe, each creating out of eternal matter in order to fight the tendency toward chaos, and we just have a single one of those gods with whom we are covenanted. That's Elohim. Though Yahweh (Jesus) and the Holy Ghost are also considered gods, so that gets a little confusing, because they aren't worshiped but they clearly exist? I don't know. Anyway, that's interesting.
Dustin Jackson. I will try to unconfuse you. You have a clear understanding of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. We look at all 3 (Father in Heaven, Jesus Christ, and The Holy Ghost) as true gods. We can't be accurately described using the same word which describes people who believe in many warring, adulter committing, and arguing gods. They are one God, defined as a group of Gods who have a perfect unity. Some verses in the Bible about one God are Jesus Christ as He was in His pre-earth existence. Isaiah 41 or 42 is another example. Jesus Christ is the only Savior. Father in Heaven isn't our Savior. It is Jesus Christ testifying that He is the only Savior in those verses.
Monolatry (sometimes also called "Biblical Monotheism") is the Biblical view and while it some more fundamental type Christians still view it as "heretical", the late Michael Heiser and his works (the Naked Bible Podcast, the Unseen Realm, Angels, & Demons) has pushed it out into the open in the Protestant and Evangelical circles, while Fr. Andrew Stephen Damick and Fr. Stephen De Young and their works and Podcast (the Lord of Spirits) has pushed it out into the open in Orthodox and Catholic circles. Im sure there is overlap, but their two FB pages combined have over 20k members. That is a lot for FB. The Unseen Realm Documentary on RU-vid has 2 million views alone.
Hey Ocean. I love your channel. Your perspective really helps my transition toward polytheistic perspectives. I have a question about Dillon’s definition of a deity - what does it even mean to be a disembodied consciousness?? I can’t grasp this mind-matter duality. Quoting the Ancient One from Dr Strange, “At the root of existence, mind and matter meet.” I like the Kashmir Shaivism perspective that mind and matter are both vibrations, separated by a matter of “density,” so to say. How do you conceptualize the distinction between disembodied consciousness and embodiment? I struggle to relate to deities without exploring this concept. I like the explaination in what you said about polytheistic Taoism, an expanding spiritual plane with gods in it.
I have learned new things-a couple of these theisms I have not heard of before, so its interesting to learn about them. (Needless to say, interesting video.) But quick question: was the mention of Jordan Peterson meant to be an insult or something?
I need to ask a question! Is it possible to be both Pagan and Pantheistic??? I mean is it possible to believe that the universe has sentience while believing that the deities also exist inside it? Not exactly treating the universe as a deitie, but respecting that it has will and thought? Edit: I guess what I'm trying to say is, is it "insulting" to have these beliefs?
I've seen the secret book come up for so many things(granted I dont remember what since my memory is crap but) I have it. Had it for YEARS but never read I really need to. Damn
I was raised as an Eastern Orthodox Christian but with Ukrainian Slavic Pagan Traditions/Rituals. Slavic Paganism can be considered Henotheism with Rod as the creator and so is the high god.(Huge Oversimplification)
Does anyone know who that statue at 5:25 is of? I have owned a similar statue since high-school, and just kind of considered it an amalgamation of Death centric figures.
I personally think Heliotheism is quite a bit older than Animism. Animism takes quite a bit of thought to justify, Heliotheism does not. The power of spirits in trees and the earth is harder to observe, the power of the sun is not.
As someone who was raised as Jewish in Israel- a Jewish country- I disagree with your stance. Judaism itself is a strictly monotheistic religion and I can actually think of two different instances where it says in the Torah that there are no other gods off the top of my head (there’s probably more than two, I’m just not too well educated on the scriptures). Those who who acknowledge that other gods exist (or might exist) are probably more on the secular side, but anyone who’s more religious - I assume would reject the idea. Long story short- it has nothing to do with the religion, but rather depends on the person.
Also not to be a pedant but what about misotheism or as jack saint proposed, distheism? Like would the belief in and abject hatred of a god or gods be different or just fall under polytheism or monotheism?
Im hindu and am not a fan of christian god as depicted in the bible but if its christian god as essence of everything visa vi pantheism im ok with that. In my faith i view jesus and “christian god” as avatars though i know thats not exactly cool with christians
