I know you take your viewers' tolerance of puns for granite, but I assure you, I have no apatite for your wordplay! It isn't very gneiss to do this to people! And I'm sure there are plenty of others who share my sediments on the matter.
@@2cbadvideos That will depend on the "theology" of the religion but most religions would be different from magic, sense a magic trick or curse is not a mirachle. In christian theology simon the magician is a somewhat clear example of the difference of divine power from magic. Magic is the ancient man of seen the sciences, astronomy comes from astrology, alchemy and chemestry, geomancy and geology and so on, alan more has some nice ideas about it. IMHO the diference is magic comes from dark (secret) arts and science in principle is suposed to be democratic. What I mean by that is the only way you learn a spell is by the study of the secret words, that aint suposed to be learned by everyone around you. The witch dr is not going to explain to you his arts.
Some of these stories of atheist or at least non-believing warriors who converted to Christianity solely for the sake of fighting for a king are fascinating. They are good tells of a pattern in which many people embraced Christianity not because of some great realization of deep theological "truths" or because of the "rationality" of the religion, but because they went with the flow.
@Freki Bodgaedir So fucking brave dude announcing it for the world to see, you're so special I want to shake your hand and give you keys to the city of Nobody Gives a Shit
People did that all of the time back then and now. Pledge allegiance to the God of some city when doing service for the administration. Not much difference than the oaths people take to the various municipalities. Although, it's not very biblical is kinda more of a pagan behavior and that's probably especially why they really didn't mind it initially. It was just another God to throw in
“Wanderers… some heathen, some godless, but all the same depending on each other, leaning into their might, their luck, their strength.” Sounds like a statement pretty applicable to many of us on this pagan path together. This gave me chills in a good way. Skal brothers and sisters!
Ketill seems like my kind of dude: Adventurous Viking who loves his little girl enough to let her make her own choices AND will violence people in support of those choices.
There might have even been Buddhist vikings. When I saw Buddhism represented in the TV show Vikings I was a bit skeptic of the historical accuracy (even though I'm aware they've traveled to far-off places). When I Googled it I found an article discussing how a little Buddha figurine dating to the Viking age had been found in irrc Sweden. It could've traveled there indirectly through trade, without any information on its meaning, but if intercontinental travel was common enough for it to end up there, I wouldn't be surprised if a few vikings knew about the religion/philosophy.
That would be a very interesting topic I think for 2 reasons: 1. Buddhism lends itself well to being syncretic. Some argue it's not even a religion and more of a philosophy so it would be interesting to see how it meshes with these European polytheistic beliefs. 2. In Buddhist lore the Buddha is higher than any god because the Buddha is the Enlightened One. The Buddha has achieved enlightenment and in Buddhist scriptures you can even find the Buddha teaching gods on how to achieve enlightenment, would be an interesting perspective. Also the Buddha no longer exists because becoming a Buddha means you are able to break the cycle of Samsara and not reincarnate upon death. Mahayana Buddhism believes that anyone can become a Buddha and a Bodhisattva is one who has declared intention to become a Buddha and is thus on the Buddha-path. Bodhisattvas exist to help liberate all beings from the cycle of Samsara by helping them to achieve enlightenment while they are on the path for their own, and all beings would include the gods.
The swords 'bite' used to be quite common in poetic speak. It is a reference to the blade of the weapon, which was considered to be its bite. That suggests to me that it was saying the blade of the weapon finally started working to take the person down. It's bite getting through is just a prettier way to say the same thing.
A similar expression is still used in modern Norwegian; both in a literal sense of e.g. a tool intended to cut some material, and in a figurative sense of something affecting a person's physical or mental well-being ("This weather does not bite me, I'm used to it.")
These godless ones sound like Klingons as described in the wedding of Worf and Jadzia: Our gods were too much trouble, so we killed them and now trust to our own skill.
The godless ones believe in their own strength, there may be gods above and gods below but the only gods capable of changing your life are the ones who live within yourself.
@The Matrix Hardly as weak as those putting their faith in some fantasy god or gods so they can pass the buck so to speak and not take responsibility for themselves.
@@samaelcercunnin5227 allah is a weak god actually , if your religion gets destroyed but somehow you manage to sustain your existence and return back to the mainstream I'd call that strength , allah however doesn't thrive on the devotion of his followers but rather on their fears , he's an evil god..... basically the god of Abrahamic faiths is an evil god which shouldn't come off as a surprise to anyone , just look what is currently happening in the world all in the name of that god but using different religions
correction: apunism is not "to lack puns." The "a-" in apunism should be understood as an active negation in normative punosophy. **snort** **guffaw** **choke**
Negation of claims doesn't necessarily mean denial of an entity. In philosophical atheism, this means a denial (or lack) of the belief in a deity or deities. Think if someone, named Joshua, claimed he was god and you said you don't accept it (i.e. the Negation). You're not refusing his existence rather denying his claim. I don't accept the claims of a divine but that is independent of there actually being an divine entity.
Then Ketill got in a heated exchange with Paut and Paut called Ketill "svartalf". Ketill replied that this was hypocritical of Paut as they were both svartalfar.
After almost 40 years of watching my mother's religion tear itself apart, I can only conclude that a society that cannot tolerate atheists eventually comes to be intolerant of itself. These guys are great examples of "live and let live" that I wish xtianity hadn't countermanded for its own ends so we could disabuse more people of the notion that monotheism is the "only safe option". My partner struggles with the Catholicism his addict mother "raised" him with, the Spiritual experiences of his own UPG, and my steadfastness on my own Pagan path. I'm tempted to hand him the Cowboy Havamal, not to convert him, but at least to give him the kind of "Be the best whatever you already are," wisdom and comfort I found first in Buddhism before wandering north and west, so to speak.
I believe that religion in the West is "tearing itself apart" because it is not our true faith, and that Christianity actually exists to cut us from divinity. The Havamal is our book. Hail the Gods! Hail the folk! Hail the AFA!
Amazing video!! And I am a weeb so the sword biting reminded me of Kisame Hoshigaki 's sword in Naruto. And the end part reminds me of what atheists and pagans should be doing and that is helping each other regardless if it is in a war or not but in general life . And again amazing video!!
Monotheists kinda gross me out. I get the appeal of polytheism and animism. Used to practice it. It was comforting. I became an atheist because no matter who I have prayed to in the last 30 years, my deepest heart's desire never came true. I was never healed from my chronic illness. So I gave up. I have made progress by trusting evidence based approaches. But nothing good ever happened concerning my prayers when I trusted gods. At first I thought they were ignoring me on purpose, but I prayed to around a hundred gods, and none of them helped. They don't all get along in the mythology, so why would they all agree not to help me? It would be out of character for them to agree on just this one thing. I couldn't think of a reason that all of them would intentionally ignore my prayers. So I became irreligious. For a few months I was just angry they were ignoring me. Then I became an apatheist. Basically, I realized that the gods were either evil, impotent, or imaginary and I didn't particularly care which was the case. However, I saw some of what the damage was from monotheism, and how polytheism could be just as deadly if the trend towards organization continues, so I became a proper atheist.
@@indoorsandout3022 Thank you for that breakdown of your spiritual journey. But, I think that an individual regardless of they are religious or not has the ability to be deadly or dangerous if radicalized. Rather it be monotheists or polytheists or atheists or anything in between them or outside of those labels. Anyone can be deadly and dangerous if they have a catalyst to be so or upbringing in the home or other factors. Again thank you for replying and breaking down your spiritual journey and your journey to atheism :D
@@DrDino123 My pleasure. While I have direct experience of monotheistic extremism (having been in a cult and having lost friends in the wars in the middle east), I am less wary of paganism because it doesn't seem to be flirting with doomsday prophecy or genocide. I'm not really worried about individual radical elements. The trend towards organization is worrisome because if a large group radicalizes around a leader, that would be a major problem.
Makes me realise how closely we connect Vikings to Norse mythology, even though Vikings are mostly - if not only - called Viking because of the act of viking. Doesn't surprise me one bit if there were atheists among them, though I'd struggle to imagine which of their blood would believe in other mythos than the Norse.
Gods damn it Ocean your puns will be the death of me. I also love tjis perspective that some atheism of the past might be a rejection of tradition deity whorship :) brings things into perspective
some of these stories kind of remind me of an old family story I've been told. We are Melungeons but the family story is is we had an issue over land with a family, waited until the family attended church, then locked the doors and killed everyone a few hundred years ago. We were told to avoid the spiders as they gave knowledge and there is a west African spider god of wisdom (something melungeons are at least partially genetically) so it might be associated with that god in the belief in wisdom. they at least ignored the power over the church and chose to do what benefitted them.
In my mind, a blade can bite, and im confused at how this is not intuitive. I was always taught that a blade would "bite you" to accept you as it's master. This is meant to say that it is not truly yours until an accidental drawing of blood. Anything from a tiny prick to horrible accident would meet the requirements. The other side of the practice is this: if you carried a blade which has not been blooded and if it bites someone else while using it with your blessing, then honor demands the person bitten immediately become the blade's master. I get its superstitious, but this has always seemed perfectly intuitive.
Once again the Norse culture is deeper and far more complex than what you see in most shows or is covered in schools in the UK . Thank you for a great video
Yes you are right an Sword cut can be discribed with bite as a synonym, in German we still do so, for extrem sharp Blades or for someone who is not afraid of stronger or more eneies ore someone who swimms agains the stream and so on, we use some times the synonym he has bite or he/it is bity
Interesting! I guess the English equivalent here would be "edge" (for swords) and "edgy" (for the swim-against-the-stream people)? Two slightly different meanings wrapped up in one word.
Having recently become interested in Norse paganism due to the influence of a good friend, I have found other of your videos very informative, but as an atheist myself this one in particular attracted my attention. I believe you make the valid point that the definition of “atheist” is somewhat in the eye of the beholder, and because of that I do not believe, however, that someone’s saying, “I don’t sacrifice to Odin,” demonstrates by itself that he was an atheist. It allows for the possibility that he believed Odin existed, but he didn’t need or expect anything he might have gotten in return from worship and sacrifices (and possibly due to prior disappointing personal experience). A somewhat clearer example of my point would be, “I don’t care what the wood spirits think; I’m not afraid of them.” I.e., “I believe the spirits exist, but do not fear or need to propitiate them.” You do admit that someone could have been considered to be “godless” without necessarily believing that the gods didn’t exist, but I’m one of those who believes that that does not make them atheists in any meaningful sense. As another point it’s true that by the usual definition it’s possible to be an atheist without rejecting belief in all supernatural entities. I suspect that most atheists who have given the subject significant thought and analysis do so, but is it absolutely necessary? I’ve known self-described atheists who do accept the possibility of such entities, but what’s the difference between a god and any other supernatural being that has god-like powers? Believers conceive of countless gods that aren’t omnipotent or have all the other characteristics of the Christian God. At perhaps the bottom tier of the hierarchy might be the souls of the dead. If, however, they can communicate with the living, then they can do things we living people cannot. A step up might be a ghost that’s capable of traveling through solid walls, or moving objects around in the house, presumably through the power of only its will. No living being can do such a thing, so what’s the difference between a ghost and a minor god that the atheist says doesn’t exist? And that question extends to people who claim to be monotheists: both Christians and Muslims believe in the angels and demons that are indistinguishable from the minor gods of pagan pantheons (as far as I can tell). If you’re still reading this, I am curious what you may think about “secular pagans,” or those who cannot believe in supernatural beings, but wish to formally and avowedly adhere to the religion’s tenets and values as a belief system. That is, people who are somewhat like those who state they follow Jesus’ teachings, and even consider themselves to be Christians, but don’t believe he was God. Thanks again for your insights and explanations.
I would posit that whether to believe in and follow the philosophy alone or to accept the gods and the philosophy is of no real consequence to the the gods, I am sure that they have other matters to attend to rather than worrying about us individually. I would, and do, extend my hand to those with core values similar to my own. Personally, I believe in the gods, a much more important question is do they believe in me. Good fellowship is hard to find, the details of someone's beliefs trouble me not. So drive on my secular friends, it is good to have you all in the boat. Besides I practice poorly, I sacrifice infrequently.
Bro your intro music is beyond epic! Thanks for all the great info you def have a completely different perspective and vibe than anyone else and that certainly keeps me watching !
Excellent video on a rarely discussed topic! I especially liked the part about the wandering bands who may have composed the Havamal. It gives me a new perspective and a new way of reading the purpose of the text's practical advice!
Heckin' hard to overstate how glad I am to have found this channel, gods be willing I hope to cross paths with you and the others from the Heathen High Five (if the stars align); in the states or here in Sweden. Big thanks for the work you put into these videos, and for being one of the clear and concise voices of good within heathenry!
I've been on a sort of binge of your videos recently and have found myself in a bit of a dilemma. I for a long time have considered myself an atheist (suffering from suitcase Jesus the entire time) despite me not believing in any God's, that all God's and goddesses are man-made creations. But since stumbling on the Norse God's I want to believe in them, but I'm still a man of science and still hold that they're man-made. So my question is: is there a subsection or term for people like me. Who want to participate, give offerings, partake in rituals and the like but still say "I like them, what they stand for, and their personalities. But I don't think they exist." And if there's not, how do I get over that boundary and take a leap of faith (pun intended)
I believe you’d neatly fall into the category of Atheopagan. I’m in a similar state. I’ve had experiences with them, but I’m still too scientific to believe in them as-is, but Odin seems to not mind..
@@robertd9067 Odin would seem to be more forgiving on that front. God of wisdom I'm sure he would understand the leap from what we know to going off faith
I think you're just feeling a pull towards the 'virtues' and implications such faith represent. Religions are just expressions of humanity, and just like one might find certain music or food likeable and others not, you also like certain faiths more than others. Perhaps it goes deeper than that and most humans naturally has a need for faith, just like other primary needs? I don't know, I'm just another ape on two legs. But don't let my atheistic ramblings stop you if you feel this is the way personally. If you yourself feel this is genuine, I'd say go for it. Tbh there's a reason why I'm following OceanKeltoi as well :)
I go with the term .. agnostic .. From what I gather over the past ten years of watching YT, agnostic is along the lines of " I think there might be a G*D without having the belief in one. But as far as I am sure of, it is not that Jesus one most Christians talk about." From an academic point of view, just go through the Norse Nine Realms as different parts of the human mental make up, different personality traits. Same thing regards the " Lesser Key of Solomon," the 72 angels( virtues ) and 72 demons ( flaws/ vices/ sins) as being aspects of the human mind. In earlier bronze age writings it was a single angel/ lesser godhead with a virtue & vice, and that being was split into two parts. As a few Jewish scholars stated, " early bronze age psychology." Nine Realms, nine months of pregnancy, .. 1.) Infant 2.) grade school/ child 3.) Junior high school/ teenager/ youth .. learning to become an adult. 4.) Young adult/ wild times or becoming a parent and farming/ fishing. 5.) Dealing with your own teenagers. " wild times " 6.) Grand parent/ elder, the opening of the Third Eye/ astral travel .. communing with spirits/ angels. Around 49 to 60 years of age. Catholics into mysticism of angels start to see .. beings .. and talking to ancestors about this time. Southern Baptist have other views regarding this type of behavior, so disregard what S.B. have to say about any of it. 7.) Weakening of the body, with modern health supplements you might last another 20 years. " Greater spiritual awaking " 8.) Knocking on Heavens Door, yeah your body is shutting down and dying. Which can happen within a year time or less. 9.) Have to break it to you, you are dead now .. dirt nap time. Chinese Buddhist following the Eight Fold Path will view this passing a bit different.
@@benjiman_OBE Exactly. In fact there are cases of myths meshing closely with science. For example there’s a Tibetan myth that states that humanity descends from primates and according to Darwin (as well as paleontological and archaeological evidence) humanity descends from primates. So we have an example of a myth fitting with scientific discovery. And before you ask, this myth predates Darwin as according to a website (I need more information to confirm it) this story was first recorded in the 7th century. Also Hindu mythology talks about billions of years for the history of the universe which fits with astronomy.
'Bite' when it comes to a sword is a pretty common term for cutting into something. I'm very confident that Ketil's sword was a regular sword with no teeth! What is the actual Norse/Icelandic term used for the godless ones?
Man I really relate to these Godless. I’ve never liked the terms agnostic or atheist, and I love learning about religion (especially from you pegans), I’m just not a believer in any particular God. But the phrase “makes offerings to no Gods.” It kinda suits me. I’m sorta a wanderer after being “cast out” of Mormonism anyway. Great video. Gave me a lot to think about.
Yep. Even though I’m a believer in science I do believe in the existence of the various gods and goddesses. I mean there are cases of mythology fitting nicely with scientific discoveries. One such example is a myth from Tibet regarding the origin of humanity, which the story specifies descend from primates and we know that humanity descend from primates thanks to archaeological discoveries and scientific research. So you have to wonder where the Tibetans figured that humanity and primates are relatives.
@@mirandagoldstine8548 I mean we do physically resemble them, so i personally wouldn’t be surprised that that’s a religious story. Not trying to downplay them
@@sabinske8692 True. But the fact that the people of Tibet figured out a connection between humanity and primates a long time ago is mind boggling. Apparently this story was set to paper in the 7th century, long before Charles Darwin proposed his theory of evolution, much less born. Also Hindu mythology mentions that the Earth is very, very, very old. They are off by a couple of billion years but the fact that Indian mythology states the earth is really old is amazing. We know the universe is 13.7 billion years old and the earth 4.5 billion based on astrophysics so the fact that Hinduism argues the universe is much older is amazing to think about. I’ll try to find other myths that mesh up with scientific discoveries.
@@mirandagoldstine8548yeah, it is mind boggling that a group of religious people thought of that before an actual scientist. Religion is a wonder for sure, sometimes I think of it as a parable the Buddha once said, a bunch a blind men touching a elephant in different places, all touching the same elephant but each one feeling something different.
My father, 100% Norwegian, after 2 wars on ships, running boats from Seattle to Nome fir a few years, then spent 53 years in a career cutting with knives. I thank him for his knowledge in edged instruments. Im accused of making knives too sharp...no such thing. Anyway...when he tested a recently sharpened blade, whether knife, axe, etc, he ALWAYS said, " look ir feel for the bite" . A simple example: take a known sharp knife and a known dull knife of relative weight. Hold the handle with thumb and index finger allowing the weight of the knife to rest on a thumbnail. Pull back. The sharp one should "bite" and drag a bit as a result. Bite is considered the entrance of a blade into it's target.
I fall within the realm of the godless ones (modern atheists). However, I have maintained a strong desire to connect with a deity. So far, nothing has really pulled through as evidential enough to claim me. One would technically call me an Agnostic-Atheist since I am open to the possibility but I think a deity would need to make their presence very obvious in order to sway me.
@@levilamont8005 I must not see gods as you do. So yes, I deny the existence of deities. Nothing in the way of a God has actually made itself evident to me.
No existence of a god necessary. I found my spirituality to be healthier and more logical when I became atheist. I'd say I'm more spiritual as an atheist than I ever was when I was religious
I would like to point out that a term "apatheist" might be relevant to this video. Apatheist is a person who simply doesn't care if a god exists and, unless it can be proven one way or another finds the discussion irrelevant. Considering this atheist would be considered one who believes god doesn't exist. Apatheist doesn't care if it exists since there are no proof one way or another and it changes nothing.
I follow the philosophy of the old heathen ways. That said, do I believe there is a one eyed god, armed with a magical spear and riding an eight legged horse across the heavens? No. However, do I find wisdom in the old stories? Yes, and easily.
This makes me ponder how the name Ketill was pronounced back in the day. Obviously the modern name sounds nothing like the English word "kettle", but I can't speak for Old Norse times. In fact, I don't think the sound Norwegians use for that K (normally represented as KJ in modern Norwegian) actually exists in English. 🤔
"Bite" - I think, is that the sword, finally manages to hit a critical point, vein or organ, and is as such a fatal hit... You can cut someone, and even stab them, with out killing them... Even multible times... I don't think they had advanced anatomical knownledge in ancient days... So bite = lethal cut/stab...
In the Danish language we have to this day an expression that goes " det bider ikke på ham". Loosely translated "it doesn't latch (bite) on to him" in other words: it doesn't affect him, which is what is meant here. It's a poetic expression. And I'm thinking you know this already Mr. Keltoi. 😉 Similarly it can be said that the cold can be biting, hence frostbite. In Danish we call it a biting cold even though the cold doesn't have teeth. Biting, to bite or to be bitten can, in Danish, be used in many different regards, our dictionary has 10'ish different explanations on it's usage.
The occasional appearance of atheists in various forms in the records of old philosophy is interesting. These old stories communicate a great deal more than appears intended. There seem to be more similarities than differences in the relation of superstition, atheism, and tradition in different time periods.
the idea of atheism isnt that old. "Atheists" of previous ages didnt think that gods didnt exist at all, but rather, that they dont deserve worship. I am sure there were a lot of germanic people who were atheist in the sense of, they didnt really give 2 shits about the gods and their expectations and just did whatever they felt like. They may have believed gods are real, but didnt think they had any say on how to live your life, which, in the norse religion, kinda is what many gods try to do - like the Havamal from odin they might give you advise...or be disappointed in you, but they dont punish you for breaking a rule, rather the consequences of ignoring the rule are just logicly following real life ones. As example, the havamal tells yo not to drink to the point where you cant fight anymore cause you could end up dead, or making a fool of yourself. you dont listen to the advise? well an enemy might kill you in your weak moment or you may end up embarrasing yourself. thats punishment enough
A number of these "atheists" sound like the version that Christian apologists trot out today: The "atheist" who is easily converted when the Christian makes a claim that no known atheist has ever accepted.
So I found you from the God of War Thor video and while I'm not a member of your religion I really enjoy the content and I find a lot of similarities between my own world view and the way you describe the godless ones so thanks for showing me a piece of history and mythology I had no idea existed
13:20 They were neither Christian nor Heathen, but followed no gods. They and their band of men believed in their own power and success. Meaning their strenght and their luck. And that in their experience this had proved well enough. Very inspiring!
Well, it's logical to use "bite" to describe a blade cutting flesh. In older texts anyway... Other words I often see use are devour, eat, ravage, and swallow, all denoting an "eating" habit. Whence this came from is unknown but as old as the first inscriptions of combat.
Oh Frey, Christian "self-insertion" in historical chronicles is so annoying. And what was even the "point" of the godless ones beign baptized and then dying, like what was the writer actually meaning for us to get out of it?
@@jasonGamesMaster but Ocean said that their convertion was insincere, what kinda Christian, or God himself!, would accept that a cynical baptism is good enough?
@@emiliobustamante2401 Technically, the Baptists (as an example I am familiar with) would be totally fine with that. Deathbed confessions etc are considered completely legit, and the majority of those are similarly half-assed. I mean, I'm not agreeing with them, just pointing out that is what they are getting out of it.
@Rusty Shackleford the funny thing is, as a Baptist I was always told that Catholics were all about that kind of stuff. Lol. Denominations are so dumb. Lol. But yea, I agree its dumb.
Greetings. I've been a Christian all my life and was even a seminary trained minister in a Calvinist tradition for about 11 years of my life. For the first time ever I am looking at Paganism as a spiritual possibility for me. I've watched quite a few of your videos and the videos of others. I'm at a place where what really crave is a conversation with someone who knows what they are talking about when it comes to this stuff. Given your past in the Baptist tradition, I figure that you would be a good place to start. Is there a way for me to initiate such a conversation? Thanks.
Do a comparison of both Christian and Pagan belief's and look at how they overlap, the more i study the two, the more i belief that there should be a "Christian-Pagan" or "Pagan-Christian" title, the two overlap greatly.
@@levilamont8005 While there is a lot of overlap in values, I think that the idea of Yahweh being a jealous god is so interwoven into the metanarrative (the big overarching story) of Christianity it would be hard for me to hold it together with paganism in my head. I know plenty of Christians who bring pagan elements into Christianity. And for sure there are many pagans, especially many Cree traditionalists I know, who bring Christian elements into their religions. (I'm not sure traditional Cree religion counts as paganism since it is ultimately monotheistic in the sense that it has a "high god" even though much of its spiritual focus is on more imminent spirits such as Mother Earth, White Buffalo, Eagle and so on.) But Yahweh's hostility towards other Gods is such that it would be hard for me to be a Christian pagan or a pagan Christian. I've heard of non theists (in the traditional Christian sense) call themselves "Christ followers" in so far as they try to follow Christ's ethical teachings without belief in him as "God" in any sense that historic Christianity recognizes. The group that comes closest to bringing Christianity and paganism together in one umbrella that I know anything about is Unitarianism. Right now I'm trying to be part of a progressive Christian group. Ultimately the jury is out as to whether that will work for me in the end. The catch is that we still have that metanarrative that runs through the various books of the Bible. If that metanarrative is generally true then at a fundamental level all forms of non Christianity will find itself on the wrong side of the eschaton. If that general metanarrative is basically false, then Christianity was the greatest hoax of all time and a cruel joke that has led to the violent deaths of millions if not billions before the world is finished. Here is a big philosophical challenge to Christianity. If God is sovereign in the sense that my old faith tradition held where God ordains all things that come to past, then God has to will evil. Now my old faith tradition simply asserts that "God is not the author of evil". But they don't even attempt to explain how that can logically be when all evil decisions made by humans and angels were predestined by God. Freewill approaches have their own logical impasse which is just as bad. God's commitment to allow his Creatures freedom of will as an ultimate good completely undermines God's ability to pull off any sort of Christian promise of heaven. If free will is an ultimate good which must never be violated, then how can a heaven that has actual humans work? The very best of us will be selfish and desire things that ultimately harm or that others given their free wills will find offensive. The best of people under the best of circumstances are going to get into fights and arguments from time to time. How can the God of the Bible make good on his promise of heaven for his followers if he has an ultimate commitment to never violate human free will. The problem of evil puts a huge question mark over the coherence of the Christian metanarrative. Given that, there is a real chance that the force of this logic will end the end cause me to set Christianity aside. Now I've had a lot of supernatural encounters which I understood from within the framework of the Christian metanarrative. I was ministering in a cultural context where I encountered witchcraft which was expressly meant to harm me. (No judgment to witches or medicine people generally, but some will try to hurt you with their stuff if they don't like you for some reason. Many of them don't like Christians for very understandable reasons. Not as much now but back then I could located any object with spirit power emanating from it in any space. I still can feel the presence of spirit power. And back then I could break most bad medicine in Jesus name. I have no right to demand that anyone believe any of this. But I know first hand that Christians who know what they are doing can wield as much spirit power as any witch or medicine man or woman. Even with the use of violence Christianity would not have conquered Europe the way it did had it not had real spirit power. And make no mistake about it, Islam has vast spirit power at its command as well. If the Christian metanarrative is fundamentally wrong, then the big question is how did this spirit power work? What was the source of the energy? (Energy is such an inadequate term, but I don't know what sort of term to use that does not invoke too much of the Christian metanarrative.) For that matter how does the spirit power of Islam work. I could explain how it worked from within the framework of the Christian narrative, but I have no clue how to explain it from a pagan one. This is why I wish I knew some pagans close by who really know their stuff so that I could bounce these kinds of questions off of them. Thanks.
@@coolmantoole Belief and Faith is how that spiritual energy works, worship might be a way to draw the energy from someone, that's why Yahweh/Allah is sol heavily focused on drawing worship, faith and belief from their followers
why the FUCK have I not got any notifications for you? I just noticed this in my recommended, and realized I'd subbed to you like a year ago, and not seen your stuff recommended until now. I suppose I must "hit the bell".
If he says that "praying will not get an answer by the gods" he's not an atheist, he is an anti-theist or someone who doesn't believe in rituals. Also, atheists do not believe in gods, they are not rejecting supernatural claims. It's true that as an atheist you might be inclined to take a skeptic position over supernatural stuff, but it's not intrinsic to being an atheist, someone with no god beliefs.
I think you mean "he's not necessarily an atheist". "They don't exist" is certainly ONE potential way to reach the conclusion "they don't answer", just not the only one.
@@NovaSaber Could be, but I have a suspicion the guy was not rejecting the existence of the gods. It sounds more like mocking, It's probably just me though. Maybe I'm influenced by how Ocean presented the story.
In the Saga it says about Ketill that "He doesn't believe in Odin". Outright rejection doesn't seem to be there, nor does it necessarily mean that he doesn't think Odin exists. It just seems to be that he doesn't sacrifice to Odin. What his 'actual' position might have been is a mystery. As I say in the video, we can't really interview these people. And there's several ways to interpret their words.
@@OceanKeltoi we should analyze the verb used for "believe". For example, greek "pisteuo" can be translated as "to believe" in a theological christian meaning, but the use in classical greek is mainly "to trust/credit someone". Pistis, the root word, can have meaning of proof, faith etc. So you can say "i do not believe in Odin" or "i do not trust Odin".
@@mavrospanayiotis That's a very good analysis. I'm inclined to agree with it. Unfortunately, it puts further mystery on Ketill's theology and leaves us with more questions than answers. Such is history.
Ocean, I would just like you to know that every time I watch one of your videos the beginning pun forces me to throw my glasses on the computer in exasperation.
I use a similar logic (to "denial of many gods") when talking to friends who aren't sure what to think when they find out I'm an atheist; usually they're Christian, so I ask "do you believe in Zeus? Thor? Shiva?" then when they (of course) say "no", I say, "well, see, you're an atheist too, I'm just an atheist about one more god than you".
@@OceanKeltoi I don't really get this argument, which I've heard many times. An atheist is not someone who doesn't believe in a specific god, it's someone without a god belief. I mean, If you believe in Thor, Odin, Ymir but don't believe in Yahweh, you are not an atheist of Yahweh, you are a theist who doesn't believe in Yahweh. As you say, it doesn't work on a polytheist, but it does not work on a christian too.
@@OceanKeltoi Yeah, it's not as common a point to make, but then, I've rarely had polytheists show any concern about my atheism. The hostility and negative conotations just don't come from ya'll so much in the modern world (where I live); the pagans/polytheists and other similar groups tend to shrug and be like "that's cool, you do you".
@@ColpoRosso We're not being literal. It's just a comparison of the state of disbelief (with some facetious language). It gives them something to relate to; Christians (at least, most in my experience) don't disbelieve in Zeus because they hate him, or because they "don't want to be accountable to him" (common claims by Christians in the US about atheists), they just have never been convinced he exists (or that he's a god), so they don't believe. Same as me.
If you consider that well-seasoned swords have sharp dents, bumps, and nicks on them, not only the sharpness of the blade itself then yes, a sword "bites" when it cuts (personal POV from having practiced non-HEMA MMA). Funny that The Godless Ones relied upon their own strength and survived thus far, but then converted to Christianity and died. I mean if that doesn't tell you something... Personally, I'm looking into Non-theistic Paganism because I've had my fair share of religious trauma with Theistic Paganism exacerbated by neurological conditions.
These characters believing only in their own strength is an interesting way of painting them. I think it tells a lot about the author. I’m not much of a historian, but I and most atheists I know also believe in the aid of one’s compatriots and peers. Maybe I’m being too nitpicky?
The expression of a sword “biting” may genuinely be an artistic way of saying what a blade chipped in battle, or a duel for that matter, does. It no longer cuts, it rips thru flesh more akin to a bite rather than a cut.
