To clarify something, because I think I may not have been clear enough here; I don't think this is the end of the death of 'Doctor Who'. I specifically said it's the death knell for getting NEW FANS into the show. Russell and the BBC at large have spent the best part of a year signalling to audiences that this is a fresh start and you didn't need to know anything about the past 60 years of the show and I think it's safe to say that making the finale episode a sequel to a 49 year old story that 90% of your viewers on Disney+ can't even legally watch goes against that in a very significant way.
How about you fix your damn thumbnail at the very least so you don't attract the worst kind of people? You should know better than this. YOU are better than this.
@@MaxHP1as someone who hasn't seen any of the far right videos, is it just because the 15th doctor is being depicted screaming on the thumbnail? I legit don't know what these youtubers use to attract the transphobes/racists
@@MrTARDIS And RU-vid's algorithm is designed to attract negativity and promote inflammatory content, which tends to bring the same type of people I mentioned previously. But again, you know this.
For me, it's not that the uninitiated audience will need the context of a 50 year old story BECAUSE it is explained in the episode. It's like it's saying "If you want, you can go back and see these stories because this show you are getting into HAS a history. But it's also not entirely necessary to understand this story. We can go forward with that knowledge." Right now, all we can hope for is the idea that the show won't go on to be entirely reliant on older Who material.
It was explained in the episode, sure, but it's not a good payoff without already being invested in the original story. A new viewer gets to the end and goes... "how was I meant to know any of this?" It's like getting to the end of Series 1 having never seen a Dalek before. It's why the episode "Dalek" exists - to ensure the Daleks are appropriately introduced so the ending has weight. Here? Sutekh isn't explained to new viewers until the second half of the two part finale, and the explanation is just "I've faced him before."
@@jeffcarey3045 I think it's better comparable to something like the Zygons or the Ice Warriors or even the Sontarans, Classic Who monsters who, like Sutekh, have barely appeared again in NuWho. IIRC both Cold War and Day of the Doctor mentioned how the Doctor had fought these species before. While the threat itself of Sutekh is much greater than any of these species, there was still the chance that newer audiences would be confused by the Doctor meeting these aliens and recognizing them from his Classic run. It's just something that goes with the territory of having a modern show with the same continuity as an older one. As for it being a good payoff, Sutekh in Empire of Death is enough of a different kind of villain than in Pyramids of Mars that it doesn't really matter to me. In either story, they serve completely different plot functions, and have different appearances to boot. These Sutekhs are alike in their motifs, voice, and general aesthetic, but I felt that Pyramids of Mars was only useful in establishing the general idea of Sutekh which went on to be told in Empire of Death anyways. He's a God of Death, he faced the Doctor before, and he appropriates a lot of ancient Egyptian imagery. There's really not much more to him than that which matters in both stories.
@@jeffcarey3045and Sutekh wasn’t even presented like a, “whoa, this is really a great evil character” kinda way. The CGI dog did nothing that would make me think- new or old viewer- “omg, this is great”.
@@cinemagoose I already made a comparison to nuwho using classic monsters. They were well introduced and established. You get to the end of Legend of Ruby Sunday and the big reveal happens. It's Sutekh, a name that's never been heard before, presented like you should know what it is and be scared. It's an answer that doesn't tie anything meaningful together. It's just slapped on top. You're forgetting this season was called "Season 1" because it was meant as a jumping on point for new fans the way Series 1 was. RTD explicitly promised no returning villains. Nothing sets Sutekh up as a big bad. He's just the bad guy in a two parter. He should have been introduced midseason, perhaps with an adventure where the Doctor learns Sutekh has escaped the time corridor he was in, but is nowhere to be found. The reveal that he's been right there all along would have been great then. That's the setup that new viewers didn't get. Old viewers knew what Sutekh was and that he was sent down a time corridor using the TARDIS. Him latching onto the TARDIS is a payoff for viewers of Pyramids of Mars only. New viewers needed an episode like the one I described to make the reveal meaningful, instead of "Who the fuck is that? Oh, clearly nothing important, it's a dog that calls itself the god of death and got taken for walkies in a single episode. How silly." Good television isn't explaining things in voice overs. It's showing it. Period. Series 1 didn't use a voiceover and some lines of dialogue to say he's met Daleks before. They show it by showing how terrified the Doctor is of it, and how angry he is with it over the Time War. LONG before the finale.
I think the fundamental issue, having enjoyed this story and season overall, is that RTD has not changed his approach to Who at all. One companion from London who is ordinary but becomes extraordinary with a single mother, the arc revolves around repeated motifs that occur during otherwise standalone episodes, the finale is big and loud, the opener is silly, we need to have a Christmas special that requires seasonal resets, every season must have a different TARDIS team, we have a Classic Who companion back, the Doctor makes grandiose speeches whilst doing god-like tricks... although the broad strokes have changed, RTD is writing the show in the exact same way. And that's not good, especially when Moffat and Chibnall played about so much with the style and storytelling. It HAS to change. Otherwise the next few years are going to be entirely predictable except for when guest writers are allowed to actually contribute. Just try a Big Bad style arc, or experiment with a larger TARDIS team, or move the home base from London, or have a companion with a father figure, or ANYTHING that makes RT2D not a more fantastical RTD1, please.
Precisely - as much as I have my problems with Chibnall's run, he changed up the formula significantly by having the audience 'home' setting be away from London, regularly having three people as companions and experimented with a single long story. I like the season overall but Russel needs to shake it up a bit from his last run.
@@wilfordbrimleyful Exactly. Heck, since the show is now even intentionally seeking out an international audience, why not have a non-British companion if it has to be a present-day one?
Even the twist involving Ruby's mother doesn't do it for me. She's just a normal human being, but at the same time she has a raggedy cloak on standby (that probably cost a lot to make, let alone the straw cradle for baby Ruby), she's able to scare the literal Egyptian god of death, she's able to evade CCTV cameras to a point of being able to screw with the recordings (and even the memories of alien beings), she's able to wipe her tracks so hard as to evade Davina McCall and her production crew AFTER THE FACT, and she apparently prefers pointing menacingly at street signs to name her children. I feel like UK citizens should be reporting to the ASA over such a blatantly misleading twist -- it's so ill-fitting given the context, and such a clear miscarriage, the episode may as well be called "Loss" and it would make as much sense.
Yeah, the twist was, "Screw you, there is no twist. You spent 8 or so hours of your life investing in this narrative and it goes nowhere!". It's like Russell is punishing the fans (the dwindling number of fans), for actually caring about the story. As someone who's checked out of DW now, I'm only here for the laughs, and they keep coming.
I'm sure all the hopelessly deluded will just accept it while insisting that this pitiful series was the best ever made of the programme You can't just write a character acting in a bizarre way for no reason other than to encourage fans to follow an imaginary trail A character has to operate within the realms of the world they exist in It isn't like the days of Shakespeare when the actors would whisper the plot to the audience to help them understand Any writer should know this Unless you're Russell, who just writes any old garbage and expects all the glory
The JNT era was a time when casual viewers were expected to know the minuate of the show's history. "Omega has taken control of the Matrix" (Who? What? So?) or stand around in the TARDIS discussing the plot of a Cyberman adventure from about 15 years previously. RTD got it right first time round with the Daleks - a simple pen-portrait without all the stuff about the different factions, only a slight reference to Davros etc.
This is the reason why Doctor Who didn't need another reboot as they're still calling back to the previous series so much that newer audiences will be confused. It never made much sense to me that this was going to be "season 1" instead of "series 14"
The only reason seems to be production/company changes. It's very odd because Space Babies does the soft reboot tour, it's discussed as if new but as we all now know, it really is just Series 14. Which is fine. Just call it that.
I think it was literally just a Disney stipulation. It's not a reboot in any conceivable sense of the word, they just insisted it be called Season 1 for some reason.
@@spacepenguins8939 Kinda maybe? Dalek is obviously a superior episode, but otherwise, Master is a time lord. Besides Doctor not being alone in the universe and him using time travel to become a prime minister, I was not sure as to why he was so scary at first. I think what did hurt Sutekh was lack of big cool moment. Dalek’s rampage across the Vaults and Yana’s turn are some of the best reveals in show’s history. Sutekh Thanosing people with a touch from his heralds isn’t as cool an effect.
I don’t know. I just feel like the Master’s appearance was sold better than Sutekh. I mean, Sutekh’s a deep cut even within the fandom. And then, The Sound of Drums/Last of the Time-Lords didn’t spend a chunk of the running time constantly referring back to, let’s say Survival. In Utopia, there’s a proper build up towards Yana being a Time-Lord and then we at least a great performance in the ending from Derek Jacobi. Not to hate on Susan Twist or Gabriel Woolf, they’re both excellent, but the entire scene is basically only sold on “It was Sutekh all along. Rather than Susan.” Two characters who are utterly unrelated. The whole thing about Susan? No relevancy to this story, complete dead end. Not that I thought Susan was ever going to come back, but it just seems weird to bring her up.
The audience. That’s the difference. When the Daleks returned, the audience wasn’t confused. When the Cybermen returned, they set them up as brand new villains and had the Doctor explain to Rose that they are new versions of old enemies of his, no confusion. Even as someone who watched Pyramids of Mars THIS YEAR for the first time before the new season began, I was confused about the return of Sutekh. It’s all about the way it was presented to us as some big reveal when in reality it should’ve been treated as a new threat and while also being a fun treat for longterm fans.
@@SamuelBlack84 i think it’s fun. It’s just mostly the finale that has all the inconsistencies 😭 Doctor who has a bad case of dropping acid into the cooking pot then setting the house on fire by accident when doing finales
@@AiRsTrIkExXzZ I'm talking about the programme as a whole This is why Big Finish is the superior when you have villains like the Eleven, the Eminence and the Ravenous Not big slugs or a monster made of snot
Weird how the “god of traps” Trickster had no effect in Sutekh’s trap whatsoever. I’d figure he would be behind Ruby’s mum at least. Especially considering how Ruby’s singing in Devil’s Chord was near perfectly similar to the box’s theme in the Trickster’s first episode. Plus Clyde was fiddling with the box in the memory tardis. The references to Trickster led to fans like me to be 100% convinced he’s appearing in the finale. Sutekh had no references at all, yet he was the villain. Yes, The Devil’s Chord featured a destroyed earth which is a reference to Pyramids of Mars. But in the Trickster episode “Temptation of Sarah Jane Smith”, a destroyed London was shown. You couldn’t blame anyone for thinking it was the Trickster because of those references. Especially with how fans theorised that Russel was reusing the Sky/Trickster plot line from SJA from Ruby. Both dropped off on a doorstep after birth, emphasis on the mother and not the father, magical things happening with both of them, becoming companions. There was so much evidence for Trickster and it was immediately disproven because of one second of sand in a trailer and the dumb “Susan Tech = SuTech” theory. (Idk if you could tell, but I really like the Trickster)
One does not simply bring up Susan Foreman as just a minor red herring. I’m sorry, but as someone who really digs that original TARDIS quartet, it’s really sad that she was just kind of brought up only for nothing at all to be done with her and for the reveal to be an unrelated character. She’s not a well known enough character that you can just do this with her. The best thing for Susan was just not to bring her up unless you were going to have a return to the character. Overall, I don’t actually think it was that bad (and I will enjoy the memes) but it certainly felt botched. Funnily enough, I watched this on the same day I rewatched The Parting of the Ways and that is so superior, it’s crazy.
Susan Foreman should have been the Chekhov's Gun of this story. Mentioned so many times. I was expecting a finalish scene where she turned up at UNIT towers asking if the Doctor was there.
Susan just shouldn’t have been mentioned at all. This era should have been a total fresh start for new viewers. Why would RTD focus so heavily on teasing a character from the 60s? Especially if he wasn’t even going to actually have her show up.
It's interesting to note that The Devil's Chord got people talking about The Pyramids of Mars because of the similar scene of the Doctor showing a companion the screwed up future. Was that a deliberate ploy?
I had the same critique. I enjoyed the finale, because I had all the required lore knowledge. My co-workers who didn’t were quite confused and need a primer from me. Btw, for those in the US looking for Classic Who, most of it is currently available for free on Tubi.
For my money its that the whole season was so emotionally artificial and then it turns around and acts like the intellectual mystery was 'really really simple' while the emotional lacking is suddenly brought forward with Ruby's mother being welcomed in without question and Ruby saying I Love You to Gatwa with Gatwa apparently NOT being so emotionally open as we thought. Since when doesnt he visit (now)? 14 is literally retired with a family. Where's 15's growth? What makes him unique apart from going into shock any time he's in danger instead of doing anything useful or clever. With only 8 episodes it demonstrated what little depth anything actually held compared to s1 of Modern and its experimental nature is thrown out for regular bombastic hijinks. So as inidividual episodes theres not enough of them and as an arc its thoroughly convoluted on plot while being spiritually empty on character relationship and theme. What you're left with is hollow and noisy. Its almost like Susan and Sutekh and even Ruby's mother mystery was just a smokescreen for the nothing characterization and lack of deeper story development ideas. Ruby hardly has a genuine opinion on anything. Gatwa hardly achieves anything. What was this season worth beyond a few loose concepts and a muddled gotcha.
My wife barely knows any classic Who, and ended up going to bed early about half an hour in to the Pyramids Tales of the TARDIS, so doesn't know who Sutekh is but enjoyed Empire, and the whole season (Devil's Chord was her favourite, mostly for Maestro's costumes TBF).
Ruby’s mystery and her mother were the only parts of the episode that majorly disappointed me, which absolutely knocks the wind out of the momentum for the last 10-15 minutes. It’s a massive hole that I’m personally willing to overlook on (rare) rewatch. Empire of Death was a let down but I’m never going to understand why we’re acting like it’s the worst ever. I think it just didn’t deliver after 7-8 really good episodes. I introduced my girlfriend to Doctor Who this season and she still enjoyed Empire of Death. The finale was her least favorite but she was so invested with the previous 6 weeks and she’s asking when it comes on next. Empire of Death isn’t going to kill the show. I do want RTD to write significantly less in the coming years. Him writing 10 out of the past 12 episodes released in an 8 month span is simply too much. I hope Ncuti stays for 4 or 5 seasons and Russel leaves with him because I don’t think RTD has that much new to say. I’m enjoying this era a lot so far after falling out of love around Series 12-13 but I have reason to look forward perhaps even more to the next one. Oh and I don’t think 8 episodes is enough to build up to a satisfying finale or a convincing Doctor-companion relationship.
@@bearerofbadnews1375Well it was the beginning of a whole new era with a new season which helped. Meanwhile this era literally begins with the 60th anniversary which does not do it any favours.
Thing with the Daleks and Cybermen is that they were given all new backstories or origins, even if it was to the chagrin of old fogies such as myself. If you had no idea who Davros or Emperor Daleks or Supreme Daleks were, the Daleks were threatening because they were set up as the destroyers of the Time Lords and the Doctor hated them. The Cybermen were given an all new origin in Series 2 so that people understood what they were all about. Even the Master has that added oomph by being another Timelord in a world where they all died! With Sutekh, he hasn't got that. No recontextualization, no reworking into the Time War or anything, Russel was banking on the dialogue to do that but it relies too heavily on an era that, and lets face it, an awful lot of fans are ignorant of.
uhhh... this seems, obviously not nearly as reactionary as some other youtubers, but I think there is a similarity in being unneccasarily negative about the episode. Because really it was, at worst an "okay" episode [arguably about as good as the better episodes from the previous era (aside from PotD)]. It's really not a "death knell"! It's at *absolute* most, one "average" episode out of a really solid season. RTD has not "lost it" because of one episode. Like, this show is supposed to be silly (in a good way) and occasionally, yes it does go a bit far with that [e.g. slitheen, abzorbaloff, the 10th doctor defeating the master basically through the power of prayer]. But even those 3 things together didn't mean that RTD had "ruined the show".
It's a series finale......it's meant to have all the bells and whistles to do one of two things. 1) neatly tie up any loose ends and finish the series. 2) leave the audience wanting more so they return for the next series. Sadly as a series finale, this did neither. If it was a mid season episode it gets a a pass, but to end things it was way below expectations
@@dirrdevil well, uh... yes. It is my opinion, hence why I said "I think" that this is unneccasiarily negative. Of course, Mr Tardis is free to dislike the episode (as he did for The Giggle), but just as The Giggle wasn't a "death knell" for new fans, I highly doubt that this series (or this singular episode) is going to be either.
People are allowed to be negative about tv shows. What is this weird cult like behaviour of these types of channels and comment sections worrying about saying things that are bad. Sometime a show, episode, and season is just bad.
@@charg1nmalaz0r51 yeah, if you look at my reply to the other comment, while obviously I have a different opinion to Mr Tardis on both this episode and The Giggle, I don't need him to like either episode, I just think that his claim of this single (at worst, average) episode of Doctor Who being a "death knell" for new fans is just unnecessarily hyperbolic. Like sure, maybe this wasn't as friendly to new veiwers as it could have been, but I doubt every single new veiwer is going to never watch the show again just because of this one episode...
Bad Wolf also falls apart when you think about it. If you just needed one person to look in the heart of the tardis to destroy all daleks, why didn't the time lords do this? Especially when they're known for their hubris, especially Rassilon who we know was alive at the time. RTD has never stood up to scrutiny.
@@strbourne I just lost what I wrote (don't you hate it when that happens?) Deep within I actually do agree with you about Bad Wolf but because it was the new series first finale I was able to give it more leeway. It was nonsenical but everything RTD writes ends up so complicated that only silly answers can be given. Also I was was not back then to knw such endings were RTD topes that he would endlessly employ. I still love Bad Wolf because it was emotionally engaging and exciting and I think the Tardis having such power was cool. The Rose absorbing the energy and al that is silly but at least it didn't drastcially change the lore of classic DW. But yep, you're right narratively it does fall apart but I loved it.
@@ryanhlfc Why couldn't I have said that has articulately and briefly as you did? I think we are definitely on the same page. It does have a rather silly ending but my goodness what an episode packed with emotional stakes and a huge heart. It was a strong story, resolution aside, but because that was followed up with one of the most beautiful regeneration scenes ever I didn't care how the daleks were wiped out.
The second series is already written and shot. Hopefully, it’ll have more of a defined identity, because if it’s more of the same I don’t see the series continuing… which would be heartbreaking.
If they’re gonna continue with the “film two seasons back to back” format, then I hope they treat seasons 3 and 4 as one big season split into two, rather than two small seasons. 8 episodes is simply not enough time for the kind of ambitious story arcs that Russel likes to write.
7:20 Technically, all of these questions have answers. They just aren't satisfying ones. 1) It was snowing because Christmas Eve 2004 is a raw and open moment in time that can be summoned through memories of it. That means that theoretically the priests in the church could also make it snow by remembering taking in Ruby. 2) Sutekh cared about Ruby's mom because the Doctor, Ruby and the rest of unit had given her power through believing she's important. I guess it's a weaker version of the archangle network solution in Last of the Time Lords where everyone believing in the doctor made him powerful. 3) Mrs Flood hasn't been answered yet. (She feels like more than 1% of the mysteries though, given that Russell said 99% of them would be solved) 4) The sign wasn't there because they couldn't see it on the footage. The time window was filling in the scene based on the things it could calculate were there. It could tell there was a lamp but not a sign on it.
The new-viewer experience issues comes from the 60th anniversary specials, since they set up a bunch of stuff for season 1. We could've done with at least a School Reunion-type episode with UNIT and Mel to properly introduce them (especially Mel, since her inclusion in The Giggle was pretty random). The actual issue is the mystery sucked, which makes people think they're missing something. Susan Triad, Triad Technology, and Ruby seeing the video of her being left at the church needed to happen way earlier in the season. Preferably, Ruby should have seen the video and started obsessing about it BEFORE she exhibited snow powers, and then when she starts believing the snow is an important. RUBY: The snow is so thick and heavy, isn't that weird? Britain ain't exactly known for its wild snowstorms. I think it's a clue. THE DOCTOR: What, you think your mother's some kind of yuki-onna? That's a snow woman, old Japanese myth, not a pretty tale. RUBY: Maybe? I don't know. I'm just thinking, why would she leave me there in the middle of a snowstorm? THE DOCTOR: She could just be a normal woman with no other choice. RUBY: No, it's important. The snow's related somehow, I can tell.
I also think it's not interesting enough. Fans forget very easily that the Doctor's unique when the content is interesting enough to make it so. The Time War made him the single survivor and yet much of the 'The Doctor's just a bloke' crowd probably never considered how unique it made him, cause it's GOOD SHIT.
The Doctor being the Timeless Child could be handwaved away as a red haring planted by the timelords, but their destruction (again) is so much harder to recover from.
they use shots from episodes quite often, think 50th anniversary, “security camera” footage that shows multiple moving shots and all that. I mean it is a 4th wall break but not on purpose
I remember first time I watched Dalek. I knew roughly what a dalek was, hadn't seen any classic who, but had the impression they were a bit of a joke and couldn't possibly be scary. That was the popular perception in the UK among normies at the time as I remember it. So the episode is all about explaining why they're scary. It's effective as all hell, and it's also an interesting story about trauma from war in its own right. First time I saw Utopia, I didn't know who the Master was, but 'Holy shit, there's another Time Lord out there. And they're enemies!' That's all you really need, the 'last of the time lords' thing has been so integral to the show we're watching, there's plenty of drama to be wrung from that without needing to go back to the old show. They don't spend that three parter arguing about the Time Monster, they're dealing with what's happening now. I don't really know what about this would make a new fan interested to know more. They CAN go and do their homework, but As you say, its even difficult to do, so they'd need a strong reason to want to do it. And to do that, they needed to be telling an interesting story now. This is just 'Whats in the box? Oh, its nothing.' Its genuinely baffling.
Love your content, my parasocial friend, but I really don't think the episode was the death knell for new fans getting into Doctor Who. I think it was 'meh'. Just 'meh'. But for real though, I am sorry the cinema experience didn't live up to the hype. I'm hoping they can finagle some reshoots into next season to address some of what let the fans down this season.
i don't see why the whole 'old Doctor Who on a monitor' thing is something you kept on highlighting. To me it wasn't really a big deal and I doubt it would be especially alienating to new viewers. It'd just be "oh they're referencing an old episode I guess? Whatever".
It’s not an interesting story device, it’s a lazy way to give context and also completely misinterprets the episode as nothing more than “culture appropriation”
The only problem I had with it (as someone who hasn't watched the original run of Doctor Who (YET)), is that they ended the part 1 of the finale with the reveal of Sutekh. This meant nothing to me, except for perhaps the Doctor's reaction telling me it was big and they had history. I think the better ending for part 1 would've been to have everyone being killed off by the sand, which would've revealed to me EXACTLY how dangerous Sutekh is, hyping up part 2. Despite all that, it was fine and I enjoyed the finale. Edit for spelling mistakes.
I wish Sutekh had more Egyptian iconography. Like have Susan wear an ankh necklace. Or at least have him make reference to his mythological counterpart. Like how in Pyramids he'd rant about Horus or says "I've lived an eternity of darkness and impotence". Since in the myth Horus cut off one of his testicles. I guess there is a Mrs Flood, but Seth/Set/Sutekh didn't really have a mythological role in that. You could change Sutekh for Fenric/Fenrir and it not be that different. That being said I have to assume the guy called Ibrahim was a deliberate call back to POM. Why else call him that of all things?
For an old fan bringing back Sutekh was a great treat..... then after all that "big deal" lead-up and how powerful he is.... he's done in by "walkies" into the Vortex. Let's be honest, RTD simply cannot draft a satisfying ending.
I just don’t think having a sequel to a classic story like this is a good idea at all, regardless of the execution. When bringing back an old villain, they should be introduced as though they are completely new, so casual audiences don’t feel alienated. I’m not saying you can’t have any references to classic who, but just don’t rely on it this much. This is something RTD did very well in his first era and I’m not sure why he didn’t do the same here.
I agree that this series ended up being not-very-newcomer friendly, but I think calling it a death knell is a bit much. This show’s uniquely positioned so that even next season, or the season after that, or the one after that, could be much better jumping on points than this one was.
i loved it but, i do also agree with ur criticisms on it too. i showed my partner pyramids of mars after the legend of ruby sunday aired to explain to her about him and all that so. it definitely was oddly confusing for newer fans or fans who only got in from doctors 9 to 15..
Both me and my mom enjoyed this story when we saw it. My mom even said the finale two parter was her favorite of the season. For me the whole story rang true emotionally, though I can see more of the flaws on a logical level in retrospect. I will say though I do think this era has been failing at being a fresh jumping on point, given all of the fanservice between this and the 60th specials. Say what you will about series 11 but I think it achieved the fresh reboot vibes far better.
Idk what you mean by stop the episode and make them watch pyramids of mars because that didn’t happen with me they just reference it and tbh no new viewer really cares that much about who Sutekh is they just know he’s the big bad and as long as you show that then I think that works the extra stuff is just for the fans
Another problem; they've written and mostly filmed the second season... can they course correct at this late stage if we're building up to another nothing burger finale?
I said this before the 60th anniversary specials stared when the Disney+ deal was announced that it wasn’t going to open the show up to a new audience like Russell and his fans kept saying it was just going to force existing international fans like me onto a platform we probably can’t really afford just to see the show cause the the finale basically rectconed 49 years of the show from pyramids of mars to empire of death pretty much saying Sutekh was hiding on the tardis 49 years even though it raises other questions like at times we see the tardis explode like in the big bang and how was jack able to jump onto the tardis if Sutekh as already there in utopia for example
As someone who had no investment in any of the mystery boxes, I thought the episode was fine and nothing we haven't seen before, I appreciate the restraint not forcing a Tennant cameo which hijacks the whole episode.
I highly disagree with this. Don't get me wrong, Empire of Death has a lot of problems. But, bringing back a villain from a classic episode that general audiences won't have seen is not one of them. You absolutely do not need to watch Pyramids of Mars to understand what's going on. In fact, I don't even think they needed all those moments where they're watching the episode on the screen. It's not relevant. It's well established here that Sutekh is a villain the Doctor has faced before and he defeated him by banishing him into the time vortex. That's all you need. This is barely the same Sutekh anyway. If this finale deters new fans from getting into the show proper, it'll be because of the poor payoff to the mystery or the plot holes or the lack of stakes. Not because the appearance of a classic villain alienated them.
I don't think he's lost the sauce, I think he's just so self congratulatory at this point that he couldn't be bothered to add any, we'll get what we get and be grateful for the opportunity... I swear he said something to that effect in an actual interview somewhere 😢
All of rtd’s finales in his first era were incredible. They were satisfying culminations of the character arcs that had been wonderfully built up throughout the series. But in series 14, there wasn’t enough effort into building up these characters, so I didn’t care about what happened to them. Hell, most of The Legend of Ruby Sunday was focused on talking about Susan, a character who most casual fans don’t have any connection to. Plus, tbh Sutekh just isn’t nearly as good of a villain as the Daleks, Cybermen, or Master.
@@generalpork I love all of rtd’s deus ex machinas and I don’t know why so many fans don’t. I think they’re all epic and satisfying. The way I see it, the Doctor is basically a space wizard, and I love seeing that power reflected in how he conquers his enemies. My issue with Empire of Death is that the character work just isn’t very strong. I just don’t particularly care about Ruby or any of the UNIT crew, so I’m not very invested in what happens to them. But in rtd’s first era I loved all the characters and was extremely invested in them and their fates.
Russell has apparently said he will stay as showrunner past the 15th Doctor. Honestly, Russell, just don't. If Season 1 was anything to go by, you clearly don't have the heart in it anymore. Either pull a Hinchcliffe and watch from the sides, while new talent breathe new life into Doctor Who, or simply leave.
@@seankelly8432 Hopefully they can it before it reaches 3 seasons and they decide to boot RTD as a showrunner. Ncuti should stay but not with RTD at the helm imo
I think reviewers, both new and old, have overestimated the mainstream appeal of The Master and the investment in him at the time. As a NuWho viewer who has come to know the Master I wasn't really confused at their presence, I just thought it was an evil I didn't know. The same with Sutekh. I don't really need the history. I'm glad that it's there but I think it was sufficiently explained. My main point being that no season of NuWho has been a jump on season for someone like me. They're all endowed with a history that requires "homework." And as someone who has grown tired of their overreliance on certain villains, I'm just glad it was a shake up. If you don't know who Sutekh is, he absolutely functions as a new villain. I really liked this season and thought that the finale was a bit messy but even having now seen Pyramids of Mars, it was 100% not required lol. The sign thing I really didn't like but Mrs. Flood I am interested in. I think the actress plays it brilliantly and her coat was bomb as hell. That is, unless she turns out to be The Master which will take all the wind out of my sails lol.
Sutekh was presented so horribly- like the timeless child- laid out. Creating more questions never answered. What about 73 yards and the snow? That’s two things that they did nothing with. And, why was Ruby’s mom pointing at a sign “to name her daughter” when no one was around to watch her dramatic pointing. The whole season felt sloppy. Anyone want to tell RTD that you can have Disney’s money for better CGI and whatnot, but it doesn’t make up for the disconnected, going nowhere writing. And I love Doctor Who. I didn’t want fan service, I wanted decent writing.
Honestly, for me, the character-to-character moments was really fun and good however the Sutekh issue was this felt like it should have been a 3 parter, the 8 part doesn't work for Doctor who I believe the 10 part is the perfect moment. For me, I don't believe Russel is a past Doctor Who, I just believe he needs to focus on how he writes his finales because his best for me is when he's writing a big villain with a grounded story. I think this series best was 73 yards, boom. I believe you do not need a watch this episode's approach with Sutekh, he's such an open book all you needed was "I've faced him once before...I can't win this one." Having the doctor give up hope have a small flashback maybe of Sutekh then have a moment-to-moment fight across the universe where the doctor is consistently losing whilst the universe dies that could have been a sick 2 episode to a 3 parter then a 3rd episode where it seems all is lost, the doctor may be mind controlled, he has to fight his way out of a prism Sutekh put him in. All the ability to create a new story around a character new audiences don't know and don't have to know, creates fear in the present this guy is a threat, he is damn powerful. But hey it's in the past let's hope the next couple of seasons become more in-depth grounded and russel delves into his series 3 allowing more writers to come in (that was also an issue i believe.
This is such a bad take. I've watched reaction channels view the Empire of Death and have NONE of the hang-ups you think they're going to have. They didn't need to see Pyramids of Mars. They got that there was more they were probably missing, but it didn't matter to their enjoyment. In the end, they had the same legit crits us long time fans had, that the pointing cloaked figure was dumb etc, etc. But they didn't feel left out or anything, they didn't feel alienated, I don't care about your friends, go and watch ACTUAL NEW WHO FANS watch this for the 1st time. This crit of yours is just ridiculous nonsense. The ep has issues, but this ain't it.
I really wanted to get my seven year old into the series but this season was just so all over the place. The wild thing with the finale is that how it played out nobody would be happy. I honestly just want good stories and with a... And watching this as i listen... You nailed it. If this is season one then why call back to such an old episode.
Edit: i do agree on the fan service but there was no reason to bring Sarah Jane back in olden times but it was done pretty well though im certain they really wanted that spinoff. This was not "fanservice" done well and was simply FS for the sake of FS.
Love your content, but this was not the death kneel for new fans. Most new fans that I've been seeing comment about the episode liked it. The ones that didn't are long time fans. A large chunk of Marvel movie fans don't have a clue who most of the big villains are, same with Star Wars, but they still love those shows/movies. They don't read comics, they don't read extended universe stuff for Star Wars, but they still watch and love big reveals of a character only die hard, long time fans would know. Same thing with this.
I kind of appreciated as a mainly new who fan being given a drive to dive into classic who finally. They shouldn’t have framed it as the jump on season, but I think that’s the same with any season. All of it is both jump on able and also not.
Honestly, I didn’t even like Rogue that much and I’m not entirely sure if that’s a hot take But I do agree with you; it’s a weird finale and this season definitely confirmed a few concerns about Russel’s new era I had
I haven’t seen the old episodes it was calling back to, and it had no impact on my enjoyment of it. Some of the writing and payoffs for the season were weak, but it was by no means a death knell for new fans, and not even a uniquely bad season finale. This seem hyperbolic.
Massive spoiler warning for Gravity Falls. Alex Hirsch making a simple twin brother plot twist work would have helped RTD not botched the plot twist of Ruby's mother being normal.
I think when Russell T Davies said there would be no returning villains he may have meant villains that have already appeared in new Who such as Daleks, Cybermen, Master, Davros rather than returning villains from the classic series. If you consider the way that Russell T Davies as brought back villains from the classic series he tends to bring them back in the order that they appeared in the main series e.g. series 1 - Daleks, series 2 Cybermen, series 3 Master, series 4 Davros and Sutekh followed on from Davros in the classic series. This is why I think Mrs Flood could be the Rani and the way each time she appears she seems to be cosplaying past companions e.g. Clara, Rory, Bill, Romana maybe similar to the way the Rani cosplayed Mel in Time and the Rani.
I respect your point of view and can see where you are coming from with regard to bringing back an old villain for a series that did use any old villains (apart from Maestro being the child of The Toymaker and references to The Trickster and The Mara in the pantheon). Though it did feels to me as though like Chris, Russell was trying to bridge old and new Who and give old fans something to really get excited for and hope that they say how good it was that the new fans look it up or they see themselves as really good and watch the old episodes. I personally really liked The Empire of Death. I thought the resolution of the mystery felt a bit like a kick in teeth after all the theories I made with my friends. However, I believe that because we invested so much into the theory I think that nothing really could have been good enough . Upon thinking about it, I personally think that Ruby’s mother being ordinary makes her extraordinary. I think of it this way, we have had Bad Wolf, the DoctorDonna, The Impossible Girl, silence will fall, the hybrid. Nearly every companion or mystery ended up being a big event (which is good as it is payoff) but it gets to a point where each thing has to be bigger than the previous. So in a world where we have all those things, maybe a mother doing a heartbreaking thing based on pure love is enough. Plus Russell said there is more to reveal about Ruby’s family so there is still time to add something more to it. Heck, even Martha, who The Master said he was so disappointed in The Doctor for choosing when he has had companions who absorbed the power of the time vortex and compared to that Martha is ordinary, became the woman who walked the earth in the year that never was. And to respond to your point about Sutekh not knowing who Ruby’s mother was. It was explained because the humans invested so much into her mystery that it made her existence more powerful than Time Lords and Gods. Basically we made her harder to find and increased the power of her mystery (A very fantasy way). And that screen was a trap The Doctor and Ruby made to get Sutekh to lower his guard and get them where they needed to be. That is what I got from the episode myself.
This finale was so frustrating. I skipped Jodie's second season and wish I had skipped most of Flux. I don't want to repeat that by skipping Ncuti's era, and if I keep watching, it's just because of Ncuti and Millie. I liked Boom and Rogue, but the overall performance of RTD as showrunner is unacceptable. I hope the BBC soon sends Christopher Eccleston to personally hand RTD his "you've been sacked" papers.
I don't think you are aware of the way new fans enjoy this show. The ones I've seen talk about the finale like it more than I do, because the lack of context of an old serial makes the universe and lore feel bigger and the stakes are heightened. Doctor Who's long history is a strength and a reason people get on board, not a hinderance. Regardless, you don't need the context of Pyramids of Mars to understand the finale anyway and pretending that you do is disingenuous at worst, ignorant at best.
This is to say, I didn't even like this finale. I think most RTD finales suck. But unlike you, I've taken time to watch people who only started with Ncuti talk about their opinions on this season.
@@SunniestAutumn"but unlike you", so you didn't even watch the video because I talk at length about the responses from people who started watching this season...
Fir it was anti climax. Sutekh is defeated way to easily, ruby's mother mystery goes absolutely no where. Most welcome have is misses flood. Who we're no closer to figuring out who she is
What the fuck has this episode done to peoples brains?? I know so many casual fans - coworkers who gave the season a try because they watched it when they were younger, like Ncuti and wanted to hop on and I'd said literally look through the episodes there are, click the one that sounds like your vibe and try it and it was on the whole either enjoyed or not their vibe - but not because of the "lore implications"?? My sister (who knows nothing of classic) was surprised Sutekh was a returning villain and it wasn't just one of those that the doctor had faced off screen before. This is just hardcore fans panicking on behalf of people getting confused and, in turn, becoming the confused ones.
I was really happy that they were going with all original threats this season, it was nice that they didn't feel the need to fall back on established characters. I can only assume that Russell here didn't want to do another Ranskoor Av Kolos where they brought back a new villain and it sucked, so he went in the opposite direction and brought back an old villain instead. I personally found the episode fine but I'm speaking as a relatively hardcore Whovian. I do fear that at the very least some new fans will be lost. At least it keeps to the tradition of Doctor Who sucking ass at finales! :D
Is it bad that I got a huge rush of endorphins when Sutekh was crashed by the vortesx? or that first cliff hangar? I dunno. Guess it worked on me because I saw Pyramids on the Sarah Jane Adventures boxset as an extra (somehow it was on there. It might have just been part 4 or an omnibus version. Someone who knows can correct me). I'm OBSESSED with continuity so...I think we can be glad I'll never be in charge of the show.
Empire of Death doesn't require prior knowledge of the show before this season any more than Bad Wolf required prior knowledge of the Time War I have my issues with it, but damn it wasn't as bad as you make it out to be. As far as I can tell, the more of a fan you are, the angrier you'll be at EoD - casual fans seem to like it.
Yes, a disappointing finale, especially after all the hype. Another thing, I am positively ancient, having seen the very first episode, 'An Unearthly Child', when I was only 5 years old. So I would have seen that 50 year old story, but I'll be honest and say that trying to REMEMBER something from 50 years ago is almost impossible! Sutekh was NOT remembered by me, as for me it was basically a very forgettable story compared to some of the real classics. So even for those of us brought up on the classic series, this finale was disappointingly poor.
I keep wondering how Russell managed to pitch this season to Disney as a soft reboot. In an interview recently Russell said that he’s at a point in his career where he doesn’t need to write treatments for his episodes anymore, he just hands them in and people get what they get. So maybe they didn’t know? And why did he do all those interviews saying it was a perfect jumping on point???? Does he genuinely believe that or was he just lying? It’s all incredibly confusing.
I was actually quite hurt by this episode... I felt patronised and gaslit by that one line "its important because we make it important", no Russell, you have been goading and misleading us for months, and now you want to tell us we're stupid for believing in you? While still expecting us to keep believing in you? It's almost like an abusive relationship. And having it be the Doctor that delivers that line was the cherry on top. I feel like Russell has become so full of self-importance because of his first run being so good, trouble is he's not as good as he thinks he is (I'm not even sure he's trying anymore), but has managed to make everyone around him believe it, including disney, and there's nobody to tell him " that's a bit shitty..."From now on, I think I'll be referring to him as the showrunner victorious 😢
I think Russel was thinking too much about the UK viewers when he called it a good jumping on point. In the commentary for ‘Boom,’ he mentions how he feels more comfortable leaning on continuity because it’s now all available on iplayer (I.e. if you want to know who Mel is, her classic episodes are now only a few clicks away, rather than dvds that need to be tracked down and bought).
I don't even mind the star beast that much. Space babies was really bad. It still felt like a classic RTD episode, though. Liked the rest of the series very much. Ever week I thought that there has to be a bad episode somewhere inbetween, but there wasn't. The finale was a letdown, but still not the worst finale by a long shot.
I found some tales of the tardis on RU-vid. I think I got all of them. I’m not convinced. They were just mini series right like 10-15 min each? I’ve been watching for 8 years or so. I stumbled across 9th doctor while looking for a new show to watch and fell in love. I recently watched a reactor who has never seeen dr who starting with this newest doctor. It was helpful for my heart because I had a harder time this round. Watching his discovery was fun. He enjoyed it. Yes he missed all the little bits, but being filled in wouldn’t help later anyway. Who says you have to watch in order? Timely whimey right?
The Battle of Rank was a first draft whilst RTD had plenty of time to write a finale and did a Toymaker and dropped the ball. Rose was wasted and having a 13 year old using machine guns when RTD changed the sonic design because it "looked like a gun" was ridiculous. Maybe he should do less talking and trying to big stories up which turn into a damp squibs.
I felt it was far too early into a Doctors run as well to bring a niche one off villain from decades ago. Also I think the way it was executed made it basically say 'Right, to know what they're talking about, do your research on the show.' At least with the Master they went to explain a backstory but didn't rely on the old show the stuff they used from the old show was more Easter eggs for fans when it came to the watch.
As a long time fan who watched my first Doctor Who sitting on the sofa with my dad in the 1960s, I can tell you that Disney is not going to save this ship. It's not like the UK where the government doles out free money to fund the show. I don't think you can count on international viewership because very few Americans even know who Tom Baker is and fewer even care. Please don't get confused by all the fake press Disney throws out for its shows. It's not real. Sorry to say it's very different here in the US. Much of the press is not real and it's driven by companies like Disney as commercial advertising.
I liked the vast majority of this season, I hated the finale and disliked space babies. I'm on board for more Russell Doctor Who but I'm not on board with his deification of the doctor. When the Doctor declared himself God, I got flashbacks to when everyone around the world prayed for the Doctor and then he reversed what the master did back at the end of season 29.
Let’s be honest this was series 14 in all but name There was so many references, callbacks like the reveal relies on you to know who Sutekh which most reactors I watched had no clue S5 and S11 were more of a reset than this
Even though I haven't seen 'Pyramids of Mars,' I could still follow what was happening. It doesn't really matter who they are, as they end up as generic villains in the end. That's probably why I just didn't care-the stakes were so high that you knew everything would be reversed in half an hour. The reveals felt like cheap tricks and were ultimately unfulfilling. Compared to the 2005 Season 1, this really isn't an entry point for new fans, and that's a real problem. I would not ask anyone to start with this season.
The Tardis is in control and knew what to do. Dealing with Sutekh the Tardis had to activate it's own anti-virus system. It didn't notice Sutekh until everything started going hay wire as Sutekh was putting extra mass on the Tardis(We know it's affected due to Captain Jack) From there the Tardis knew that Ruby was going to be the companion and was able to devise a plan to deal with Sutekh by fighting for control and tricking Sutekh with the perception filter, as well as knowing that Ruby needed the experience of 73 yards to understand but not remembered. Actually knowing what was happening at the end was very satisfying.
I’m interested to know what the anti-woke YT channels that hate all the episodes thought of an episode that is bad for legitimate reasons. Are they going to be saying the same crap they always say, or are they be point out the real problems?
ah it's not doctor who without a finale that people don't like and confuses people I think it's more a case of well time to pull out the old rtd finale trick of bring back an old villain...oh we ran out of the big 3 and moffat did the zigons who is next toymaker did him already uhhhh sutekh yeah that will work yeah think the only seasons that ended with original villains were series 6 and 11 and people really did not like them either at the time so hopefully we can get something a bit better for the next season I just think this story really needed three parts to be really good I thought the finale was alright but I get other people did not like it that much maybe cause I did not get that invested in Ruby's mom plot but yeah susan was total just for rating bait for classic fans
That's exactly how I felt while watching Utopia though. I had no idea who the Master was so the reveal was lost on me. I gathered that Yana was probably a time lord but that was about it. I do agree that this episode does rely more on needing to know who Sutekh was and what happened, which by the way, I didn't know who Sutekh was before this but I figured it out in between the episodes. But to me it felt exactly the same as when I was watching Utopia in 2007. The only difference is that I had no prior knowledge of Doctor Who (except for what had already been shown in NuWho) and now I have some knowledge and the understanding that old characters/villains can just show up at any moment so I'm not as thrown off by it. I did actually recognize the name Sutekh because one of the reviewers I had been watching had been mentioning him in his reviews so when I heard the name it did click for me that I had at least heard the name before. So yeah, I agree that it's not a good jumping off point, but I honestly didn't believe that this season was going to be. Series 1 was definitely better in terms of you didn't have to know anything to start watching because they would explain stuff that came up in an organic way but every once in a while the reveals just wouldn't hit if you didn't know who the character was.
This is a massive overreaction. Sutekhs reveal isn’t any different from past returning villains, the Doctor is shown to have a history with them and be scared that they're back. And then Sutekh shows why he'd be scary to have back. New fans will roll with this just like the Master or the Daleks or whatever else.
Funny coincidence. We're wearing the same T-Shirt. I don't think it was that bad of a finale. Yes, it wasn't really good overall. Obvious plotholes aside, the idea itself of Ruby's mom and Ruby herself being just ordinary women that were important because people/watchers thought they were isnt fundamentally bad. The execution though... All the hints spread over the last seven/eight episodes ultimately leading to nothing feels just disappointing because of "reveals" like "she pointed at a sign to name her daughter, even though nobody (except for the doctor) couldve seen that. I still think there were worse series finales. Last of the timelords, the wedding of River Song, most of the name of the doctor, the battle of ranskor av whatever, ...the timeless children... (though that one could've been good, great even if it was the master, not the doctor) and the vanquishers...
