The 2 Major Problems of Mid Drive eBikes that no one talks about 

yeah i think it's a non issue

I put my mid drive on a 1990’s free trek bike. Over 3000 miles with no issues , except flat tires. Under $750 build with the bafang 750. Great power and acceleration

I totally agree with you. Middrive are far superior than hub or hub geared ebikes they had so much more torque. But people have don't ride middrive ebikes correctly, they just ram it in top gear top PA and thrash it everywhere and when after 50p miles they start hearing bad sounds coming from the middrive they then come on social media to slag off middrive, because they ignorant. Middrive ebikes are totally different when it comes to riding them from a hub drives, gears must be used in low when starting from stand still or low gear and high PA on climbing hills. Basically mids have to be ridden lije driving a car through its gears, you cannot start a car from stand still in 3rd or 4th, well it's same with middrive, yes it will start but putting tremdouse load on the middrive and keep doing this and it won't last longbut as long as middrive are set up properly with good chain lines and the proper ebike chain that will Mech properly with the correct teeth on both rear cassette and front ring and using the gears as they should be ridden then all this thing about the guy talking about the gap between the bite of the pedaling through the freehub or in America they say freewheel will not matter what so ever. I just think this video is a middrive bashing video looking for problems I stead of using common sense to show there no problems in using a middrive. Maintainance also is a must do regularly with middrive, either regressing between 500 or 1000 miles which let's be honest is a 30 to 45 minute job if that. Middrive are just far superior to hub drive in every way if you do the right thing with them by setting it up properly and using middrive cut out gear switch or rake cut outs can achieve the same thing and not cross using drive train chain rings and cassette and ebike chains. With ebikes best to keep too either shram drive train through out or shimano through out then finding the correct ebike chain becomes alot more easier to find the correct meching when changing gears, and getting chain line correct and using whole of the cassette at the back when stop starting on a fast run building up or going up to a high gear through the gears. Basically riding a middrive is totally different when using a hub drive, there alot more too using a middrive but you do get alot more out of a middrive if used correctly and set up correctly. Hub or geared hubs are for lazy riders

@@neilcopeland4411 most intelligent reply I've ever received

I have a 1500 watt rear hub kit that loses traction instantly under acceleration on bitumen, and will power wheelie on demand while going 40-60kph. If that motor was powering a typical mid drive chain it would snap instantly. People saying mid drives have more torque is just plain BS. Who really wants to go slowly up a hill, and need to back off the acceleration just to change gearing, losing momentum just to avoid snapping and twisting your derailleur (lol mid drives) my rear hub motor power slides off road and throws roost Like a MX bike

@@Billy-burner they not suppose to be used doing wheelies and as for the backing off, the gear or break sensor is momentarily for split second engaged, just like a clutch does on a motorbike or car, I think you clutching at straws to explain your side off the argument, plus the torque argument, what you talking about, the figures don't lie when it comes to the actual torque.The middrive is places in the most accurate place on the bike to gain the torque, just like a motorbike with the engine in the middle with the chain being the method to release the power of the engine too the rear. Have you seen many motorbikes with rear hub engined propulsion?, I not. Plus I think these huge hub motors look so unsightly and are easily seen by the you know who who like to get you stopped and the bike crushed where as a middrive is a little more discreet to the eye.

hub motor with torque sensor should be more widespread IMO, I've never really like cadence sensor evokes, the response is always too slow and you can't control how progressive and how strong the more kicks in. I don't like ghost pedalling, if you don't want to push on the pedals, you might as well use the throttle.

well said. I agree.

@@geemy9675 Spoken like a true cyclist who doesn't think any bike should move without pedaling being done. You don't like ghost pedaling and cadence sensors well get your bike to use torque sensors and don't ghost pedal and leave the rest of us to legally ride how we want. BTW ghost pedalling IS exercise to some people.

@@ghz24 I have nothing against not pedalling and using throttle on an ebike...I am also a former motorcyclist and I also have nothing against however is enjoying any form of biking or motorcycling and I wish much more was done to make it safer. It's just a personal preference, that made almost every experience I had on hub motors/cadence sensors not so great. what I don't like about cadence sensors is that you have zero way to modulate the power, and the usually very slow on/off response. throttle can mitigate the problem by giving some control, and of course the "problem" of cadence sensors is not so bad when you have enough pedal assist levels, and you are cruising at constant speed on a flat trail with no intersections, and you can find a pedal assist level which is in the sweet spot that has good balance of speed/assist for you, or if you have a weak 250W 25kmh ebike that you will probably use at "full power" most of the time. It just makes any 500/750W cadence sensor ebike feel very unrefined. on the other hand most mid drives are too expensive and also have disadvantages regarding shifting under load and drivetrain wear. I don't think it would hurt to see more hub motors coupled with torque sensors, at least as an option. I think torque sensors is also better for safety when I see my daughter or my wife using a 65lbs with 500/750W, with a two second delay between you starting or stopping pedalling and the motor response, it makes low speed maneuvers very jerky especially if you are in a speed with tall gearing. unfortunately the same delay applies on the throttle. torque sensor fee more natural because you can modulate the power the same way you do on a regular bike, just as if you were 2x/3x as powerfull

@@geemy9675 I would likely like a torque sensor if it was selectable not one or the other. They sound more controllable at low speeds more intuitive. Cadence senors can kick in unexpectedly and definitely have a learning curve. Downshifting while slowing to a stop can be tricky till you get used to it. I end up ghost pedaling a lot because I don't want to upshift just to downshift for the next stop signal. I have one of the ones that wont let the throttle engage until it's moving already so being in a lower gear when stopping is crucial if you want to accelerate at a reasonable rate when starting again. When I can go a ways without stopping I go to high gear and help it get up to top speed 28 mph. The throttle is limited to 20 but ghost pedaling will getsbout 25 with no pushing just fast pedaling (which can be harder than pedaling with at least a little resistance). It seems like there are lots of people that would like to mandate assisting with pedals. I get a lot more exercise on my electric bike than I would on a non-electric one because I couldn't ride a normal bike in the terrain near me. I mistook your post as wanting to take away options for others.

The Bosch is lower powered..

@@Bamboothought its still 750 and similar torque to fix i beliwbe

@@mackenziebullied4900 75 nm vs 160nm, you're no where close with those weak bosch motors

@@lIlIlIlIlIlIlIlIlI fair enough

@@lIlIlIlIlIlIlIlIlI Exactly, my bafang puts out 120 Newton Meters

I don’t even understand why freewheels still exist for mainstream bikes, like in the modern mtb and road part of cycling you very rarely see a freewheel hub and not a cassette.

@@makncheese6836 they are cheap. I only use branded cassettes.

Hi, what type of e conversion kit would I need for a 20in fat tire trike with pedal assist? I live in an area with a lot of hills and it's impossible to pedal up.Thanks

@@msbuttercup2073 unless you are buying a trike specific conversion kit, then I would just recommend a simple hub drive motor in the front for simplicity reasons. However if you are loading the rack(s) with heavy items frequently, you might need more power than a hub motor can provide.

@@SugmaDLigmaNutz Ok, thank you!😉

Oh, oh oh I am dreaming and you are me that wrote your post, no wait a minute no I am not. My dream is your set up, Nice! I want to try box but the $$$$ without any feedback but now I feel ok to move forward from your experience and the 4 gears are a nice thing,sick of buying clusters for the one or two bottom gears. The solar panels in the sand where I am at are perfect combination to get to the beach spend the day charge up and ride home. Dear God bring me the cash for such luxuries.

Box are bomb proof, but saying this if you use the right teeth meching for the ebike chain for the right cassette and front meching on the front ring and use the middrive system as it suppose to be used by going up and down the gears us using a gear cut off sensor then you have no need for box. Componants but box are very very good, but lije I say, if you set the drive train up properly no need to get the box as because if you don't set up the drive train and chain line up properly even the box componants will fail

what is pawl

@@BlackMamba-lt8oe They are the tiny levers that are spring activated like they are in socket wrenches. The pawls are what makes the clicking sound. They grab the grooved inner barrel of the freewheel as you peddle forward and create the increased clicking sound if you peddle backwards, or are coasting and not peddling. If you buy the more expensive freewheel there are more pawls and grooves in the inner barrel for them to grab onto with less play and are more of an efficient power transfer because they grab much sooner as soon as you first peddle forward. That's just my amateur view.

@@mwj5368 why do u have to replace them, just ride it as a fixie,

Hope pro 4 hubs is surprisingly clunky. But cheap and very repairable.

@@BlackMamba-lt8oe it would literally break your legs lol

....damn, you know your sh!t!! Thanks!

The gibberish you just wrote would be a lot more sufferable if you didn't use an exclamation mark on every sentence.

Me too. BBSHD...just received another build kit yesterday, can't be beat performance for money and very reliable.

Any re-grease?

@@shapan0ipoly once a year with mobile 21.super easy to do just a couple minutes.

@@shapan0ipoly Truthfully its optional at even 5K miles. The grease that is in the motor new, both primary and secondary which btw is a different kind of grease for each, doesn't really disappear. But...the secondary as Joe said is easy. Remove the right crank and chainring and outer casing and you have access. Seal is generally reusable. Mobil 28 is preferred.

Will be dosing the current build - BBS-HD - with Mobil-28 grease prior to putting it in the frame. Did that with the earlier build.

exactly what i was going to say try a chainring around 56 tooth this would put you in a larger sprocket in the back giving less chance of slip too if you think a 56 sounds too large i was riding mtbs with 56 tooth chainring back in the 90s and it was the better way .these pathetically geared bikes are embarrassing tbh .we used the call the front small chainrinring granny gears and never used them

Think about how your legs would feel if you started with thr largest ring at the pedals. Every hill you'd be struggling.

I've had my bafang bbso2b about 2 years now, I did the conversion myself, if I say it myself " it's very neat (hidden wires) it's a brilliant piece of kit, I've done miles on it, I love it 👍😁

the BBS02 and BBSHD don't have a torque sensor at all so it'll just keep putting the max power from the pas setting

Now you’re 1 catpower

@@frosty129 Good one! Although the estimate might be a trifle low with two Siamese cats in the house, grin.

$1200 plus?!! WTF🤯

that sounds amazing

bro explain in simple English

The problem is that you have people building 1500 watt ebikes who don’t know the difference between a freewheel and a cassette.

@@dant.6364 there is a free wheel inside a cassette, but your comment nis top

@@BlackMamba-lt8oe I think you mean that there is a free hub in a cassette.

Both freewheels and cassettes have freehubs.

Thank you for this, I will also talk to them about the Freewheel 2.0 springs because that was my first question: which version was the person in the video using? When I discuss specs with the Cyc people (and they do email back promptly) I am always aware of the differences between gas/electric power plants and the drivetrain considerations necessary - so I already had the FW2 on my current quote. If you're going to buy up to the Pro from Stealth then spend the extra few bucks for the improved components suggested for it.

Uk needs some freedom

You SERIOUSLY!!!!! need to put an end to the tyrannical, foreign, unelected rulers that have overtaken your country.

I've got a throttle anyway, never had any issues riding it.

It's an EU law too

Could you put a second hub on the other wheel and get more power and speed?

I just installed the same kit on my road bike, but with a smaller "shark" battery. I didn't want too much assist, just enough to maintain my avg speed while commuting over a big hill. The "Tour" setting is just right for me, but installed a throttle in case things get hairy. Altogether I spent just under $700 USD through eBay, plus took the opportunity to put in new cables and a new chain. Only problem I had has been documented multiple times, is that if you have your rear cables running under the bottom bracket, you'll have to modify the plastic guide or somehow reroute your cables so there's enough room for the motor to slide on. There's only a couple mm of clearance.

i installed my tsdz2 500W in February this year, i've already got 2000km on it, while i haven't used it as much recently cuz of heat and rain, i run mine in turbo pmuch all the time cuz i cant bother riding uphill under 20km/h, and if the motor can't do it i stomp on the pedals upright, cuz i hate slow speeds ebike rules are so dumb, people with a 25km/h moped/scooter can ride strong gradients at 25km/h cuz 50cc engines can have abt 4kW if they limit ebikes to such a low value it's logical people pick the moped as they're a fuckton cheaper than storebought decent ebikes, and thank god no manufacturer actually limits their motor to 250W, that would suck dick uphill, the Power Line CX "250W" motors actually peak at over 650W so the rules are a joke, some shitty way to keep people buying overpriced crap proprietary shit from manufacturers.. on the other hand a 3kW ebike would be dangerous if the PAS isn't torque sensing, so i feel there should be a class 25km/h up to 3kw, no certificate of conformity and other bullshit, but mandatory torque sensing or something, so shit wont throw an uncontrollable wheelie instantly lol

I may have replied to NPL as requested but probably not because I seem to lack telegram competency lol. I'd swear that I saw my reply on here but it is gone now. Hope the telegram stuff doesn't still have to be done in Morse code.

Not really. Its relevant if you get the gearing wrong on a mid drive aka too short of gearing....and, you don't have your power assist levels set up properly. A BBSHD and BBS02 motor is programmable with a laptop and USB cable designed to interface the motor controller to the computer.

i'm running my Tsdz2 500W on a 625Wh 48V battery, i have no issue with battery weight myself, neither have i ever have anything break yet, 2000km on my motor and chain, everything still stock i very often hammer hard on it, i weigh way more than i care to admit and stomp on my pedals, 42T with 7S DNP 11T freewheel, my top speed with it is about 40km/h and on strong uphill i stomp on the pedals to go atleast 25km/h without a retarded cadence i run a KMC E8 chain though, 7-8 speed and optimized for ebikes so it doesn't hurt to have quite a sick amount of torque to remove my old freewheel (didn't go fast enough to my liking with a 14T one) i actually had to buy a 30cm wrench and still stomp on the wrench with my feet, i couldn't get it off with a 15cm one, not even with weight, so i'm sure it had quite a ton of torque on it, lol.

That’s all I want… to ride like I used to 😅

At 62, that's all I want to accomplish too. I own a couple of 30 year old Trek hybrids. I not only don't know which bike I will convert.....I don't know what system to install. Was looking at mid-drive for sure.

If using bafang midrive all you have to do is put a gear changing sensor on it around $30 and problems of chain breaking goes as cuts out the motor momentarily when changing gear, can also use the brake sensors to stop the motor as changing gear. But if you get chain lines correct and set up a middrive correct by using the correct ebike chain with the correct teeth meching on the front ring and rear cassette then middrive are perfect and always using the gearing on the back changing from low too high from stand still and stop putting in high gear and high pedal assist when starting from stand still as this puts astronomical strain on thd motor. Middrive are meant to be ridden like driving a car or motorcycle, using the gears. Riding s hub driven bike from riding a middrive ebike are miles apart different but people are either ignorant too this. But ridden and set up properly middrive are so so far suowrior than hub or hub geared ebikes

Hub drives can be a drag; the motor makes the back end heavy; if you have a hard tail; then the bike hurts if you go over a bump unexpectedly! ouch; get a shocked seat post at least! The newer mid-drive motors from Bafang have a motor cut-out switch for 2022-23 models that will cut out motor power during shifts (amazing) and it works great. I have a Accomile Cola Bear with a 750w motor and it has the cut-out; there are never any issues with power on the chain, and the chain does not fall off due to power on during shifting. This motor is inexpensive compared to all the other motors out there, and a better design too; better than Bosch now! Forget belts, and forget the issues usually associated with Mid-drives. My Cola Bear climbs hills like a Bear; very fast.

Isn't that the case even if your bicycle isn't an Ebike.

@@iamrocketray not of it's a front or rear hub ebike, only a mid-drive. Front or rear hub motor bikes can move without a chain. The motor is in the wheel so it rotates the wheel, chain is not needed in any way.

Since bafang motors generally have a pedal sensor, which is more like a rotational motion sensor, you don’t need a chain. You just need to rotate the pedals. You can of course fit a throttle as well as pedal sensors. So it is not true to say that all mid drive motors can’t be ridden home with a broken chain.

@@roughrider9831 Dude, a mid drive motor turns the front crank and nothing else, that spinning without a chain will get you know where, trust me. A rear or front hub motor then yes the wheels will turn and no chain is needed but on a mid drive? not a chance in hell without a chain.

@@iamrocketray not a problem on a hub drive

Get a bbshd mid drive. this guy is a clown. You can build a good bike with the right gearing and program the motor to work the way you want it to. None of that is possible with a hub motor. and forget big hills or hauling anything with a hub motor. It will kill your battery and youll still be doing most the work

bbshd have the option for 9 PAS settings

That sounds overly complex. Hub drives are much more simple and easy to use.

@@sammiller6631 ah yes dont put two motors on a street bicycle and then slam the throttle to max speed from zero. Far too complicated to understand. What did he do wrong that could have broken an aluminum bycicle rated for 1/4 a horsepower?

Like bike gears, that are on the bike...

Why did you pick direct drive over geared hubs?

I carry a spare chain

@@ghz24 direct drives have the most durability, lowest maintenance, silent and easiest to setup regenerative braking.

@@tomfuller4205 Why bother with the extra hassle?

@@sammiller6631 Chains break so I carry a quick connect KMC.

I have a 52 tooth blingring on the chainring, it helps keep the selected gear in the higher tooth count gear on the cassette, meaning the torque is distributed to more teeth, hopefully enabling longer service life & no chain jumping so far.

BBSHD vs CYC? Combined w a 72v, purpose of attempting food delivery

@@andreeneliko CYC😉

another commenter who understands the difference between a FEEWHEEL & a CASSETTE with a FREEHUB... unlike the clown who made this video🤣

I have done the same, but now run a 53x9 gear ratio. Pedalling at 35mph no problems. 3500miles on it so far. Been bullet proof,

Ive seen an ebike like this from china. Its a high powered mid drive with a belt going to the rear wheels along the left chain stay and the regular chain that pedals the bike on the right side. Not sure about the pedal assist details or anything.

How do you cope with hill climbs without putting to much strain on your motor?

@@michaelsMW2movies a bbs02 geared 52T / 14T would be struggling at best

@@michaelsMW2movies So far it is doing just fine. All of my e-bikes are single speed, just this one is currently the fastest. I am building a bike with a 3000W hub motor that I hope will be a bit faster a 60 mile range by using a 72V 40AH battery. Using a 60T front sprocket and a 16 rear.

@@EBikeBuilder_ Actually it isn't. In level 1, I am getting up hills at 18mph and level 2 gives me 22mph up the hills. This bike is set up for pedal assist only, I don't use throttle.

@@bike6626 That is awesome. You must have legs like tree trunks. I'm using motors because I'm 55 and need the help as well as the gears. I'm not hitting anywhere near the speeds you are on hills but it's nice to know that with my lower gearing and speed I'm not taxing my 02 in the slightest.

Ummh... Gears can complement a Mid-drive because you have to pedal with a Mid-drive! (i.e., pedals are always moving!)... Right?

@@hookem7060 you're thinking of a fixed-gear bike... the rear cog is bolted to the rear hub, so the pedals will spin as the wheel spins. Mid drive motors can't be fixed-gear. Even if you use a fixed-gear rear hub with a mid drive motor, the motors usually have a freewheel which allows the bottom bracket to spin without requiring the cranks / pedals to spin.

@@eBikeaholic OK got it!... There's a freewheel clutch!.. Thanks!

A chain is simple enough to have a spare and carry the tools for a roadside change. I'm 45 and finally changed one for the first time today and I can't believe I've avoided doing it for so long. You can be back on rhe road in 5 minutes.

@@sandmanxo exactly! It doesn't take up much space in a saddle bag. It's all about being prepared. No big deal once you've got that mindset.

My guess is you're in a fairly flat area. NYC is supposed to be flat but I live on a very steep hill. I have yet to see a street legal hub drive ridden up my hill. Even delivery riders get off and walk. Meanwhile my 750 watt BBS02 climbs (slowly) up the hill without issue (with the throttle alone if I kept it installed). A spare chain is cheap and easy to carry (as are tools). I'd rather carry 1 spare chain and fix it on the fly than carry a whole bunch of spokes for a hub drive to fix on the fly.

@@michaelsprinzeles4022 If that is the situation then it is a necessity to utilize a mid drive. I believe a hub drive is for the majority of people who think they need a mid drive for small, medium, and even big hills. If where you live is nothing but up & down then a mid drive is a proper utilization, but some think hub driven bicycle may not have strength to power up with, or without peddling, and that simply is not true. Also outright destroying a drive train is not simply popping in a different chain.there is no remedy for that, but to see a bike mechanic. Hub driven bicycles are not limited by even having a chain drive at all which is a life saver if it comes down to that somehow.

@@buffalomind6838 True, most people are better served by a hub. Problem for me was it didn't feel like riding an analogue bicycle with a hub drive. I feel like I can dial in the power and gearing with a mid-drive so it still feels like I'm putting in effort but my motor can climb hills without my help if necessary. My primary reasons for wanting a mid-drive were the extra torque (even if only used occasionally) but also that the bicycle is easier to wrench on or fit in a car. I don't actually live in a hilly area (NYC) just on a steep hill. That one hill means no matter how easy my ride I come home to a steep climb. When I say steep, I mean cars without snow tires slide down while trying to drive up in snow. I have never destroyed an entire drivetrain. In thousands of miles split over 2 bikes I have broken 1 chain over more than a 5 year span and worn the top gear of a cassette but the other 9 are still fine (both problems on the same bike). When I did my 1st build local bike shops shunned e-bikes. Even today they curse having to change the tire on a hub drive. Yes being able to throttle home without a human powered drivetrain is definitely nice. Fortunately I can fix most my problems on the fly now so that necessity hasn't come up. I don't say mid-drives are for everyone. I do say they have superior climbing ability in class 1, 2 or 3 e-bikes though.

Build your own. 2000 or 1500w would do. I’d get a 2000w. A little heavier but better to have too much than not enough

My geared hub has a belt drive. Great combination

Exactly 100%.

I've had to program the controller countless times before I found a sweet spot. But now my legs spin out only when using the throttle. I'm using between 2% of the motors powerful in gear 1 on the display and scaled up to 13% in gear 5. So yeah, the motor is really nerfed but it's a lot nicer to pedal. And I always have that 100% power while using throttle