The 80th Anniversary of the Battle of Britain: A Conversation with James Holland and Rob Citino, PhD 

A little late to this party. Just want to say how refreshing it was to have a Brit and. Yank in constructive discourse around WW2.

I lost an Uncle during the Battle of Britain, Fg Of John Swift Bell RAF, he was based when KIA at RAF Kenley, regular service (BR), 616 Sqn. KIA 30 August 1940 around midday in Spitfire X4248 shot down in a head on attack on Bf 109s over Thames Estuary. May have been injured or mechanical issue but unfortunately he could not return to RAF Kenley due to heavy bombing, so was vectored to RAF West Malling. Unfortunately John crashed and burned on approach to RAF West Malling airfield. I never had the privilege to meet John however, I continue to honour his memory in anyway I can. Thank you so much for highlighting some of the historical myths, and bringing the truth to light. My late Father Major Lawrence Langford 58th Northamptonshire Regiment, was also a Dunkirk veteran; he was a SGT in the BEF in France in 1939/40, his recollections expressed to me are a mirror of what you have portrayed. I have often thought that my long lost family heros sent a special message to me, that I must never forget my families sacrifices, as I was born on VE day 1958 - my Birthday being the 08/05/1958!

I am amazed at how I've been fooled by historians who failed to examine the dawn of WW2 in the ETO carefully, specifically, the number of things that Britain (soon to be the Allies) had going FOR them. Beginning with Hitler's ineptitude, his lack of sensible planning and the long periods of absence from his "office" steamrolled him. It was like the old saw "he was writing checks that he couldn't possibly cover." This presentation has been one of the best I've heard on the subject of the Battle of Britain. It was like taking a nice, long hot shower after a particularly dirty job. Doors were opened ... lights turned on. I had always suspected that the Battle was not quite as close run as I was being led to believe but having a job to go to every day, I didn't have time to do the research necessary to reach the conclusions reached it this program. Thank you very much. This is exactly why I watch this type of programming: TO LEARN.

The Battle of Britain was the start of the Axis failing to win WW2. The allied victory began there.

Another fantastic talk. Thanks!

James and Rob. Honestly big names leading the forefront of next gen curiosity and knowledge of ww2. Important stuff to know in this day and age. I just hope the youth understands and appreciate what ww2 has done for our modern world today.

I don't recall seeing Holland before, but when Rob Citino defers to you, you must be pretty damn good.

Very enjoyable. Gave strategic insights that I see no where else. Mr. Hilland is a great teacher.

Love listening to these two! fascinating and informative...two scholars who have such a passion for history and present it in an entertaining way

Great discussion- Thank you!👍

The first paragraph in the description of this video says it all. "The fate of the world was truly in the balance." In the midst of the Battle of Britain Winston S. Churchill sent a special gift to Franklin D. Roosevelt. It was a treasure chest. And in that treasure chest were the engineering drawings for the best water-cooled, internal combustion engine in the world -- the Rolls Royce Merlin. Also, in the chest was some stuff that would help American engineers radically improve radar for U.S. Navy ships. The British success bought Albert Einstein time to write a letter to Franklin D. Roosevelt, and it bought time for both of them to move forward with the ultimate super weapon that German scientists (still in Germany) had a head start in developing. I read somewhere that the U.S. Army was ranked something like 17th in the world in 1940 due to its relatively small number of men. The British women proved how much that women can do to help win a battle. Their radar work was a well kept secret, but their factory work was not so secret. For every fighter plane the German works (factories) built, the British factories built two fighter planes. Faced with the demonstrated facts, the American war industry started to give American women an opportunity for the first time. Thank you, from one of the 13 colonies.

fascinating discussion, love the point about how you can't consider any of these factors in isolation....kind of a microcosm of WWII in general.....each small part has an effect on the rest

Great talk! Thank you

Two Legends. Love both of these guys.

I've never understood just why Bomber Command always get little mention when it comes to the Battle of Britain. They were active over the German airfields when ever weather permitted and sadly, Churchills famous few speech is always edited to exclude them. 😎

brilliant show.

15:46 - " Its really important to understand the moment of greatest peril for Britain is Monday the 27th of May 1940. " Great Thanks goes out to James Holland for emphasizing the importance of the British War Cabinet Crisis . The Wehrmacht attacked on the morning of May 10th , 1940 . That evening , Churchill became Prime minister and formed a coalition government . By May 26th, the BEF and French 1st army were trapped at Dunkirk , the Belgian army was in the process of capitulating, and the estimate was that only 45,000 could be evacuated. The BEF could loose 200,000 men. FDR and the US was maintaining its position of isolationism . In this context, the Italian ambassador met with Lord Halifax , and offered to be an intermediary in negotiating terms with Hitler. Lord Halifax wanted to explore this option. The war cabinet ( Churchill, Lord Halifax, Chamberlain , Attlee and Greenwood ) had a series of heavily debated meetings concerning this. On May 28th , Churchill did an end round on Halifax , and was able to persuade the 25 (?) member outer cabinet to keep fighting . Had Churchill not been able to to persuade them, Hitler would have been able to release the entire Wehrmacht on the Soviets in the spring of 1941. The world would have become a different place. For this reason the "War Cabinet Crisis " is one of the defining moments of the 20th century. More historians should be pointing out the significance of this crisis . . .

There's a difference between (1) having tools that might do the job, (2) doing the job all-in from your perspective with uncertain outcome and (3) knowing that the job has been done successfully. The only one we really know is the third and stories and data about the others.

13:35 Maurice Gamelin's HQ was in a Chateaux near Paris that didn't even have a radio. Messages came hourly by motorcycle courier. He wanted to keep a closer eye on the politics of Paris more than have an effective HQ.

A key point made by Holland was that the loss of the entire BEF on the Continent would NOT have meant the end of the war for Britain. After all, the British Army played a pretty minor role for about a year following the fall of France. It also would have echoed the near total destruction of the "contemptible little army" of British professionals that fought the opening few weeks of World War I. That core of about 100,000 should have been training the millions to follow once the Great War turned into a lengthy siege. Instead, they were basically obliterated at places like Mons and during the "race to the sea" as both sides entrenched from Switzerland to the North Sea during August and September 1914. Britain did not surrender after its former colonial army was reduced to a remnant.

Riveting SEGMENT Double BRAVO

Dowding considered switching Fairey Battle pilots to fighters, but these crews were held back to attack Seelowe invaders, even though the aircraft type was obsolete and dad previously taken heavy losses.

Two topnotch historians discuss the Battle of Britain

Very interesting and educational. However, as much as comment that Britain was far from military defeat even if they had lost entire EF is very accurate, the fact that they stayed in the active war meant full bancrupcy and lost of many basis as early as 1940.

Locked in with cv19, thanks so much two of my favorite writers/ speakers. Interested to know your opinions on German aircraft. Mr Holland do you feel about them like you do the mg-42 or Tiger tank? (LOL) I have a BMW so I get it completely.

Britain was still the underdog overall - despite having developed the world's most advanced air defence system (which due credit should be given) - it couldn't beat Germany by air combat alone over Britain, it had to fight them elsewhere and protect British interests (i.e. North Africa).

The Hurricane should have had cannons since they had nice thick wings which could hold the early cannons.

I don't know if Gen. George Patton really said this, but it is credited to him in the movie: "Fixed fortifications are monuments to man's stupidity [sic]." The French reliance on the Maginot Line was their monument. It's laughable to think that they would come to a fortification and NOT go around it. The Nazis were not particularly respectful of borders and Belgium was in no position to do anything about it.

You started the war now you reap the whirlwind

Mr. Holland is confused about the nature and use of fighter armament on Messerschmitt 109s around the time of the BoB. German pilots did not use their rifle-caliber machine guns to find the range and then fire off a cannon shell from the 20mm weapon. Just because it was called a “cannon” did not mean it was used like an artillery piece! The weapon was called a “cannon” because it fired exploding shells, but it was, in essence, a large-caliber machine gun, and was used as such. As for the relative effectiveness of Spitfire vs. ‘109 armament, the weight of fire of each gave little to choose between the two. The Spitfire’s eight .303 machine guns could put a serious amount of lead on target in a very short time, enough to saw an opponent to bits in seconds. Which was better? The ‘109, marginally but not decisively. The cannon's low muzzle velocity and limited ammunition capacity meant the armament was not markedly superior to the RAF fighter's eight machine guns. The point about the ‘109 having an advantage because its iron engine was more resistant to gunfire than the alloy Merlin is just silly. Fighters did not stop their opponents’ engines by shooting their crankcases to bits, but by knocking out their coolant, fuel, and oil systems. As far as combat performance was concerned, the marks of airplanes in service were leapfrogging one another in small increments all through 1940-41-42, with the Spitfires pulling ahead after that. In scraps between BoB-era ‘109s and Spitfires, it was down to which plane had the better pilot or the initial advantage as to who would win.

They had the plane numbers during the Battle of Britain. Approximately 2000 fighters throughout. They didn’t have the training or pilots

The issues raised about the Luftwaffe being a tactical air force is simplistic- German air doctrine was certainly more inclusive that the strategic bombing centric British and Americans, and the close air support centric Red Air Force. Interestingly James Corum, a friend of Citino's, wrote "Creating the Operational Air War" about the Luftwaffe, and with Richard Muller, "German air doctrine 1911-1945". The documents sugggest close air support was not an immediately priority. The destruction of the enemy air force and interdiction was prioritised; the first mission has to be carried out strategically against factories, operationally against airfields and tactically in combat.

11:58 - " Its got America " Interesting presentation , however , FDR and the Americans were maintaining a position of isolationism . Actually, when Reynaud and later Churchill asked the US for help the answer was no . When Churchill asked FDR for help a second time , FDR thought that Britain was done , and asked Canadian prime minister MacKenzie King to take in the Royal Navy if Britain capitulated . .

At 12:30 I'd argue that the US were clearly on board with the British stance. In the US, there were many anti UK street protests and very few pro UK. Congress had many active pro Nazi members. And, it wasn't until Germany declared war on the US in December 1941 that the US nation properly came to the help of the UK.

Is there anyone elucidating the conflict between Dowding and Baader? One account I read had it that Dowding was playing a "broken wing" deception strategy, straggling his interceptors into the Luftwaffe formations willy nilly while feeding the Moselyite communication channels to Berlin false stories about disrupted RAF communications, thus luring Goering into greater effort and greater losses thinking that the next push will destroy the RAF. Meanwhile, Baader, not reading this show of weakness correctly, stumps noisily for coordinated formations attacking the Luftwaffe bomber streams getting him posted by Dowding out of his hair and away from the front, noisily to the point that, after the Battle of Britain, the powerful Baader faction in government forces the resignation of Dowding, a grave injustice by any measure and an indication of how political intrigues in times of war can bollox one's own chances of victory.

"Meanwhile [R.A.F.] Bmber Command is attacking all these [Luftwaffe] air fields in northern France, and in targets in Germany as well." (33:03)

The French had radios, but refused to use them. And the French didn't make an example of any General.

Great stuff, but if the guy says "and all the rest of it" one more time I'll literally rip my own head off.

I love when i got to sleep with a New perspective

17:19 DISCOMBOBULATE

Brilliant discussion. Dr. Holland is absolutely correct. It is amazing the number of people who think that Britain did not play an important role in the War. The Battle of Britain turned the war into a war of attrition that the Germans were no going to win. I would go a bit further the war in the West was much more important than commonly believed. People hear the numbers on the Ostkrieg suggesting that it was the only important front. But notice that the numbers presented are always manpower. Now that is is absolutely correct. Most of the German Army was deployed in the Ostkrieg and most of the losses were suffered there. No doubt about that. But anyone who knows anything about military history knows that manpower is only one-factor in military power. If it was, China would have won the War. The War in the West forced Hitler to commit most of the NAZI war economy on the est, leaving the Ostheer poorly supplied and supported. www.histclo.com/essay/war/ww2/air/eur/sbc/eco/sbc-gie.html

Sir Hugh Dowding said ‘Had it not been for the magnificent work of the Polish squadrons and their unsurpassed gallantry, I hesitate to say that the outcome of battle would have been the same’. In other words he said if it wasn't for the Poles the British would've scr*wed up. And what thanks did they get? During the 'victory' parade every nation that fought was invited but not the Poles. Brits downgraded Poles accomplishments just so that they won't upset stalin, then our 'allies' sold our country to stalin during Teheran conference. But now how times have changed... it's like this biblical cycle that those who come last shall now come first. Poland is one of the safest countries in entire Europe, no terrorist attacks or no go zones whilst our allies and our former enemy are all crumbling down.

Siwek Kazimierz Pilot 315 Mustang III Oficer RAF. Google. // Sabaton - Aces In Exile PL. You Tube.

we dealt with Stalin and he was pretty despicable IMO as much as Hitler. I think rob was spot on when he said it was because Hitler was a liar. His politics were much less of a concern to the allies than the fact that he couldn't be trusted. By 1940 to many agreements had been reneged upon for the west to trust Hitler again.

Gentlemen, WW2 was started by nazi Germany and soviet Russia. They divided Europe in heinous Hitler-Stalin pact. In 1940 Britain stood alone supported by mostly Polish and Canadian pilots. For the benefit of Britain the Poles who came into the battle at the most decisive moment were highly experienced and trained Air Force regulars who previously flew against the Huns in Poland and France. And it was Sep 15 th 1940 when the Squadron 303 PAF set the standing RAF record, 17 enemies shot down, own losses 3, 2 pilots survived. Forgotten fact is that during the Battle , Luftwaffe flew mostly on the fuel supplied by the then allied soviet Russia.

I think France's drubbing by the Germans was actually 90% French ineptitude. There was absolutely no excuse for an army that size and well equipped to be placed in a position to be totally encircled. The French generals were way too old to be leading anything but a retirement home bingo game. Possibly only Stalin was dumb enough to make those mistakes, but Stalin had around 1000 miles, and millions of bodies, to let more qualified people figure out how to overcome his ineptitude.

The best propaganda victory was the run-up from battle of britan to the lend lease act.

What i remember, taking a buddie's .410 shotgun hunting when I was 19, it made me feel like I could and would kill anyone who wanted a gun fight, NAZI or neighbor, consequences be damned. If had a Spitfire or Hurricane & half dozen hot 303 guns, knew how to use more than willing to go die for anyone or anything, just for the fun!!!!! Kids are ready to kill.

The UK was NEVER in danger of being invaded, so that blows up the myth that the BoB was a turning point. The battle was ineptly handled from the German side- they never fully appreciated the role of the Chain home radar stations; Goering interfered in both strategy and tactical planning and even when they started attacking the sector stations and main airfields no station was out of action for any length of time.