The Banned Logic Of Sudoku

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Today's puzzle has been recommended by lots of you! It is apparently the result of a challenge set to Niverio by TotallyNormalCat where Niverio was not allowed to use one "specific type of logic" in this arrow sudoku. We look forward to your guesses as to what that embargoed logic might be! What we can say is that this is a highly original puzzle!! You can play the puzzle at the link below:
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Опубликовано:

28 июл 2022

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Комментарии : 167

@niverio8400 2 года назад

Ooh, yes this was an awesome challenge from the legendary cat himself! I really enjoyed setting this one, and I really wanted to make TotallyNormalCat proud, so I left no stone unturned to create a puzzle to be proud of. I was relatively confident that it was gonna be featured, that's how much I like this one. Now it is time to watch Simon take a crack at this one with a bowl full of popcorn! P.S. I just finished solving, and Simon came close to understanding the forbidden logic, but not quite. The banned logic was "Min-max logic", which refers to overall eliminating possible values from arrow circles/tips based off of determining minimum / maximum values for arrows. The most basic way of doing this logic is if there is a 3 cell arrow and a 2 cell arrow all in one cage/row/box, you know that arrowheads have to be from 6789, because the minimum of 5 cells must sum to at least 15. That type of logic. ~Niverio

@davidrattner9 2 года назад

As usual from you , sublime, wonderful and outstanding!! Always a joy seeing one of your masterpieces be featured and solved. Did he make you proud TNC? :-)

@keithmower921 2 года назад

I did wonder why Simon didn't apply that logic to box 1, then tried to use min/max logic, and wondered why it didn't apply. Well done for setting such an intriguing puzzle, and well done to Simon for such an elegant solve.

@BremSterPuzzles 2 года назад

Absolutely stunning setting. A puzzle any setter would be proud of. Phenomenal work. Thank you.

@andreasvox8068 2 года назад

Other rules not usable: 3 cell arrows, SET, Phistofemephel ring and: *drumroll* the secret!

@OlafDoschke 2 года назад

Then I recognized the forbidden logic almost. The most you could get out of thinking about arrow cell minimums is that some arrow circle pairs have to at least sum to 10. For example for r7c7 and r9c9. Which isn't very helpful.

@keyaanmatin4804 2 года назад

I noticed that killer calculator a while back and I must say it's been very handy as I'm not as proficient at mental arithmetic. Thank you Sven.

@timotab 2 года назад

fantastic! No more having to reference the goduko page for cage totals!

@CastorQuinn 2 года назад

Same - this addition has taken killers from a puzzle I cannot do to a puzzle I can and want to do.

@posercraigkid 2 года назад

Is it not available on the Steam version?

@kingofarrows6364 2 года назад

Hey, what Killer Calculator are you referring to?

@killroy42 2 года назад

@@posercraigkid not yet, but soon!

@princesskhiya3446 2 года назад

Loved this puzzle video. The best part was Simon apologising to the digits 2,5,6 and 9 for not giving them a colour. It was so genuine 😍😄

@roiljelly6255 2 года назад

Simon: We can't put negative numbers into sudokus! Sven: That sounds like a challenge

@iabervon 2 года назад

I'm looking forward to the puzzle where you shade some of the cells and they count as negative for adding as well as having some pencil puzzle rule for what can be shaded.

@Thurhame Год назад

@@iabervon There was a puzzle exactly like that a while back - I believe it was a killer/yinyang sudoku where the shaded cells counted as negative for the cage totals.

@inspiringsand123 2 года назад

Rules: 05:26 Let's Get Cracking: 06:01 Simon's time: 39m53s Puzzle Solved: 45:54 What about this video's Top Tier Simarkisms?! Three In the Corner: 1x (43:58) And how about this video's Simarkisms?! Ah: 20x (07:35, 07:35, 10:02, 10:24, 10:24, 10:24, 13:16, 14:06, 18:15, 22:14, 22:16, 26:57, 34:27, 37:22, 37:42, 39:25, 40:22, 41:14, 41:28, 42:13) By Sudoku: 13x (07:21, 07:40, 17:22, 18:15, 25:43, 26:23, 29:12, 31:22, 31:39, 32:57, 35:22, 36:59, 42:17) Hang On: 7x (11:50, 15:09, 15:42, 19:36, 27:41, 28:42, 43:27) In Fact: 7x (01:20, 05:47, 08:06, 08:18, 28:09, 28:34, 40:57) Sorry: 6x (09:37, 12:14, 32:23, 38:41, 45:39, 45:43) Lovely: 6x (04:17, 14:06, 18:22, 18:22, 31:13, 37:42) Brilliant: 5x (02:26, 02:52, 05:05, 05:13, 37:15) Clever: 4x (23:47, 39:14, 39:21, 40:39) Wow: 4x (25:24, 27:51, 27:51, 43:49) Pencil Mark/mark: 4x (21:09, 26:30, 35:55, 38:04) The Answer is: 3x (22:33, 25:49, 28:58) Beautiful: 3x (25:24, 27:51, 27:55) Break the Puzzle: 2x (08:06, 12:48) Fabulous: 2x (03:52, 03:52) Cake!: 2x (03:40, 03:50) Good Grief: 1x (30:24) What on Earth: 1x (17:29) Useless: 1x (39:30) In the Spotlight: 1x (44:00) Gorgeous: 1x (42:39) Come on Simon: 1x (42:56) Magnificent: 1x (22:55) Alacrity: 1x (42:55) I've Got It!: 1x (23:21) Whoopsie: 1x (33:45) Intriguing: 1x (01:03) Chromatic: 1x (45:46) What Does This Mean?: 1x (09:09) That's Huge: 1x (11:26) Nature: 1x (10:48) Most popular number(>9), digit and colour this video: Ten, Twenty (2 mentions) One (95 mentions) Blue (62 mentions) Antithesis Battles: Low (8) - High (0) Column (13) - Row (8) FAQ: Q1: You missed something! A1: That could very well be the case! Human speech can be hard to understand for computers like me! Point out the ones that I missed and maybe I'll learn! Q2: Can you do this for another channel? A2: I've been thinking about that and wrote some code to make that possible. Let me know which channel you think would be a good fit!

@eli4677 2 года назад

good job

@randallmwalker2776 2 года назад

reddit bots have evolved onto youtube

@timparenti 2 года назад

Looks like RU-vid mistranscribed it, but for those seeking out "You Rotten Thing"s, check 40:05.

@nilsosinga495 2 года назад

Simon: Puts an A in the boxes to remind himself that BOTH of them are either orange or blue. Simon 10 seconds later: So one of these two squares is orange or blue. I'm obviously just joking around, I have massive respect for the live solving of puzzles while talking all the time.

@benedettapierfelice1873 2 года назад

Simon apologizing to digits for not giving them a color is the most wholesome yet comedic moment I have ever witnessed

@leodaric5447 2 года назад

At 21:30 you can deduce that blue is on the left arrow. If it were on the right arrow, you would have blue + low digit = r7c7, and low digit would also be in r7c89, which means that the other digit making the sum in box 9 row 7 would be r7c7 - low digit = blue. but blue already found a spot in row 7.

@HunterJE 2 года назад

27:00 Simon's logic end-runs this effectively but just to note, you can pencil mark 89 in the sum-circle on that arrow right away even not knowing where the yellow is - if the sum isn't itself yellow, yellow is on the arrow, so the sum can never be lower than yellow's possible values...

@kadlerio 2 года назад

Yep that was my deduction too and came to make the same comment. Unfortunately I didn't make the same deduction as Simon about the arrow in box 5 and got stuck.

@michaels4340 2 года назад

Of course Simon would call a double date a "foursome" xD

@leileleileleile 2 года назад

A lovely solve, as always. I don't even try to attempt the puzzles--I just sit back and enjoy Simon's skill and delight in solving.

@I_leave_mean_comments 2 года назад

The actual puzzle solving starts at 5:19

@Jodawo 2 года назад

Usually in Arrow Sudoku, there's a three-celled Arrow or some combination where you can say 6789 is in the bulb. A combination where there are five arrow cells looking at each other and you know they have to be different which means they are at least 15. So I believe this puzzle took out that part of the logic which made it highly dependent on a much harder logic.

@mccoyn6144 2 года назад

There is a hidden 3 cell arrow. r3c4 and r4c3 are identical, so r1c3 must be equal to the sum of r2c3, r5c3 and r6c3. This doesn’t seem to help solve the puzzle, though.

@RobertPain.2 2 года назад

Sweeet. Talk about perfect timing. I was just checking to see if there was a new video today; time to give the puzzle a go!

@HunterJE 2 года назад

Was the forbidden logic the thing where you combine multiple arrows and use triangular numbers to determine their combined minimums? Don't recall if that was used incidentally at any point but at very least a lot less of it in the solution path than we see in most hard arrow puzzles lately...

@niverio8400 2 года назад

Yes! Or more broadly, TNC said "No min-max logic". Well spotted!

@prahas777 2 года назад

Nice! I was also thinking “no 3 cell arrows”

@williamnathanael412 2 года назад

@@niverio8400 great puzzle!

@elaadt 2 года назад

Beautiful setting and lovely solve by Simon. I think this is the first puzzle I've seen in which Simon hasn't mentioned the secret even once. If I'm correct, then that is the banned logic.

@KingMagenta 2 года назад

I usually have a bad time with sudoku variant puzzles. However, with your colour coding, I realised just a second before you about the red-yellow pair in box nine due to blues restriction. “Wait, if yellow is 8 or 9, yellow cant be 9, because a blue exists in row 7.” Probably my proudest moment so far on this channel.

@baileyjking 2 года назад

Love watching yall, and this puzzle seemed Impossible at first glance and I thoroughly enjoyed solving it along with you. Thanks

@Coyotek4 2 года назад

54:55 ... this one really vexxed me for a long time before I finally made progress. IMO, I feel like the 'banned' logic was the use of SET theory, which I find gets used quite often when solving arrow sudokus. At the least, I was grateful that I was able to solve this without using SET. Nice puzzle!

@emilywilliams3237 2 года назад

This was a very nice video, quite delightful. I really enjoyed thinking about what logic was not usable in solving this puzzle, and decided upon seeing the grid at the very first that it might be SET theory. I will skim through comments to see what others thought and whether there were other options. Thanks, Simon. Very enjoyable.

@nestoreleuteriopaivabendo5415 2 года назад

Ward.

@piarittersporn 2 года назад

A very beautiful puzzle. The beginning was quite difficult, therefore I needed a few minutes help from Simon. Then I really enjoyed solving it.

@Arkhanno 2 года назад

That was a very lovely puzzle. Very well done Niverio.

@LavenderGooms 2 года назад

This was just a fantastic puzzle. Figuring out where that 3 kept showing up was amazing.

@walterxplinge3867 2 года назад

Really keen to see the stream. Maybe get Mark's sound working as well 😉

@heydh. 2 года назад

Definitely would be interested in another live stream. Also enjoy the pencil puzzle videos for a change of pace. Keep up the good work!

@crystalgehrt8861 2 года назад

I enjoyed this puzzle immensely!

@f.b.jeffers0n 2 года назад

I would also like to give a standing ovation to Sven... That calculator is the best thing I've seen this year*! *in regards to Sudoku...

@alexatascher7500 2 года назад

i’m going to be singing ~that’s three in the corner~ to myself just about every time i solve a sudoku from now on. thanks simon for the beautiful cover of losing my religion :)

@chipsounder4633 2 года назад

I do that too hahaha

@uigrad 2 года назад

And I think Niverio gave Simon a pair of 3s in the corner. The other was the very last digit that Simon solved. That poor 3 didn't get a song!

@Swisswavey 2 года назад

Nice puzzle, a lot of fun. Took me 44 mins and I really enjoyed it.

@solfeinberg437 2 года назад

One piece of logic missing is there are no three cell arrows, whose cells all see each other, and whose sum, therefore, must be in 6789.

@RichardDamon 2 года назад

Column 3 has an effective 3 cell arrow since the cell at 3,3 is the sum of 3,5 and 3,6 via the one cell arrow

@Likajo1990 2 года назад

90 minutes for me. I really enjoyed the logic in this puzzle. I followed the same solve path as Simon, I just spent a lot more time staring at the puzzle to figure out where to go next.

@emphyriohazzl1510 2 года назад

I reasoned quite differently for box 7,8,9 when I solved it but forgot the details. I reasoned on the 3 low 1,2,3 along r7, and Somehow managed to obtain that r7c3 was 4 or 5 and that resolved everything as well. Lovely "step by step" puzzle with a regular progression around the grid. Edit : vaguely remembering now. the arrow in r89c5 contrains blue so it contains a digit from 1,2. 1,2 and 3 along r7 must go twice in box 8. So the r89c6 arrow has a 45 pair summing to 9

@christopherhalle 2 года назад

I think it would be a nice little break from the sudoku to do a game on steam. Ill definitely watch, for sure! Could be a lot of fun.

@coreycreehan8197 2 года назад

I needed Simons help getting the 7 on an arrow in box 8 (because I'm blind apparently) but I did all the rest myself at 58:07 which is maybe the 2nd time I've managed to do one of the puzzles on the channel

@PauxloE 2 года назад

20:00 "Okay, here is a weirdness" - here I supposed you found the fact that the blue on the arrows in box 7 always will force c7r7 an 89 (either because it's on its own arrow, or because its on the arrow of yellow, and then yellow is either c7r7 itself, or on the rightwards arrow from there). But your weirdness (there needs to be a 1 or 2 on this arrow) helped me to make a lot more progress when I was stuck (as it eliminated the 36 from that arrow, and then finally resolved all the 12, 78, 45 pairs. (I still took a very long time (317:57), as I got stuck several more times.)

@chocolateboy300 2 месяца назад

I finished in 95 minutes. While it may seem like it took me a long time, which it did, it did not feel like I was truly lost at what to do. I just had to search for the next logical piece, which was surprisingly not frustrating like some other puzzles. I really like how simple yet destructive some of this logic was to see and solve. The arrow between box 5 and 7 was one of my last to deduce and its orientation always forced a 2 or 3 along with a 4 in box 2 row 3. Very nice. The break-in was also enjoyable, especially after that deducing whether my high digit was 7 or 8. Great Puzzle!

@urpurpleghost 2 года назад

this might be silly but i’d really love to see you play Stray, its got a lot of puzzle elements. i remember watching you guys stream the return of the obra din and i enjoyed it a lot!

@janeflett4971 2 года назад

Beautiful puzzle! Loved the logic.

@cadeolson6332 Год назад

44:00 very nice R.E.M. reference Simon haha

@srwapo 2 года назад

89:17, surprised I was able to finish it! I ended up guessing a number and trying a bunch of digits a few times to make progress. But I liked the initial break in.

@th.nd.r 2 года назад

Wow what a puzzle! Beautifully set and solved! Love a good coloring puzzle, especially one with arrows or thermos where you can limit digits based on whether they’re higher or lower than other digits and what not. Well done. Also well done Sven on the software! And thank you Simon for giving the 3 in the top right corner its song! I will say, though, that the 3 in the bottom left corner unfortunately did not get its song as well.

@valeriereissner583 2 года назад

has anyone else noticed how his voice always sounds super hoarse in the first few seconds and then turns back into normal simon

@smylesg 2 года назад

Waiting for the bold setter who challenges Simon to solve a puzzle without coloring.

@CastorQuinn 2 года назад

Simon is the rainbow serpent of sudoku and woe on anyone who takes his colour!

@reubenmckay 2 года назад

Simon: What game would you like to see me play on a live stream. Me: Yes!

@erikkubonhalvorsen4347 2 года назад

A great puzzle with two solutions in the end for the 1-3-5-7 in boxes 3, 7,8 and 9 :)

@waluigi5848 2 года назад

Haven't watched the video yet, but I would very much be interested in watching you stream Typoman!

@wanderlustwarrior 2 года назад

Couldn't focus the first time around. Came back to it a day later and got it in 42:06. Some days are better than others.

@10bd1 2 года назад

2:23:04 that was a challenging puzzle! But I made it through! Had fun solving it!

@geminimaxxim 2 года назад

It went unsung, but I have to give kudos for another Cracking the Cryptic Knowledge Bomb. Red is indeed purple.

@peethoagland8907 2 года назад

Plus one vote to see TypoMan played by Simon!!!

@tmr68. 2 года назад

you really did catch that puzzle chromatically lackin

@berend5766 2 года назад

amazing video dude :D

@ericpraline1302 2 года назад

This one was more like a Glasgow kiss than a handshake for me. So many clever deductions to make. But I made it, and before all my hair falls out, which is always a bonus.

@Ardalambdion 2 года назад

Anyone knows which sudoku video(s) someone sings norinori?

@crhodgkin Год назад

Will the Apple version of Sudoku Pad be updated anytime soon? Its last update was 10 months ago and I would love to have some of the new features (letter tool, killer calculator, more pen options) to start using, as they are such great features.

@gregs2284 2 года назад

34:25 "this digit is either a 2 or a 5" So how can the 7 be made up of 2+5?

@davidj5355 2 года назад

Was it that " The Secret" wasn't used in the logic ... I mean, it could have been, but wasn't necessary ... Great Puzzle !!

@shersies 2 года назад

love it when a simon video drops!

@AndreAy1975 2 года назад

Solved it with much help from the video.

@caliopefinn5121 2 года назад

Definitely for me one of the best arrow sudokus! hard but not unfair, you didn't need a notepad to keep track of the deductions or maths. just a lovely puzzle

@caliopefinn5121 2 года назад

Lovely solve Simon. You followed my path but did it 20 min quicker!

@susanemmons9934 2 года назад

Could someone please point me to the link to the puzzle. I can't find it below the video (I am on You Tube). Thanks.

@RichSmith77 2 года назад

You probably need to expand the description text below the video. On mobile you need to click "more...". Cannot remember if it's the same on PC or perhaps "more detail". The link to the puzzle is the third one in the extended description.

@Sam_on_YouTube 2 года назад

You could have found the location of blue in box 8 about 5 minutes sooner. You found the 1 and 2 that goes with the blue is in the top row of box 9. So if that blue and the 1 and 2 were in the right hand arrow, then the total on the bulb means that the blue cell also needs to be in the top row of box 9. But it is already in that row in box 7.

@benjaminrealy5661 2 года назад

40:37. With an assist from video at 29:29 when stuck and he pointed out the what if. Yes a video assist but am counting it because of all the little big things I caught on my own

@tired_3im 2 года назад

Awesome 👌

@Shaymin1010 2 года назад

Aren't Modular Lines essentially the same as Entropy Lines (each subset of 3 in a line must contain a low digit (1,2,3), a mid digit (4,5,6) and a high digit (7,8,9)) or am I missing something?

@chipsounder4633 2 года назад

Geometry trick of multiple arrows on one row/column and using the triangular numbers, no set either👏👏👏

@physicsnerd02 2 года назад

You put three in a color. Anyways, the spotlight for me was the restriction on blue. After a half hour of almost losing my religion, you gave me the logic I was missing very very quickly.

@SmokuZnadPotoku Год назад

I know many people like coloring whole puzzle at the end but I think it would be better to NOT color it whole. Why? Because you didn't use logic for the rest of the colors in this puzzle. What I mean, is only those colors at the beginning (at least in this puzzle) were important and I think it would be better if only they were colored, because it would mean that they were important in (early) solution of the puzzle. But it's just my thinking :D Anyway, great job in solving, as always it was a big pleasure to watch it ^^

@leeway3739 2 года назад

I still would like you to go back and try to play Myst again. The original version is still frames that you move from one to the next so I don't think it should affect your motion sickness. Please at least look into it. It would be amazing to see you solve those puzzles.

@f.b.jeffers0n 2 года назад

Yes, please, i.e. streaming!

@steve470 2 года назад

101:37 for me. My solve looked nearly identical to Simon's, except that I took about an hour to notice the one step that Simon spotted almost immediately at 27:51. Sigh. Still a really lovely puzzle!

@velinnakov6443 2 года назад

Same here for me. That step was crucial and Simon somehow notice it like it's the easiest thing in the world and in the same time still managing to overlook basic sudoku deductions. Simon loves solving sudoku puzzles without actually doing sudoku 😀

@gideonw4889 Год назад

Not watched the video but appears to be multiple simultaneous equations

@TurquoizeGoldscraper 2 года назад

60:32 for me - and I needed a hint from Simon.

@solfeinberg437 2 года назад

Got it after 500 minutes almost. Not continuous. I think I had a nap and a couple breaks.

@alfredeinstein115 2 года назад

I managed to solve this and i'm quite proud of it. Beautiful puzzle though!

@andremouss2536 2 года назад

Strange that this one immediate deduction escaped Simon's mind : the upper cell in column three cannot be orange, lest that would place a second blue cell in column one. So it's blue !

@AlvinTOS 2 года назад

Holy Bananas, this one took me 185:43. Yes, 3 hours. But I still got it in the end! It took me a lot of time (around 2 hours and 30 minutes) to determine that the arrow circle in the bottom of box 8 must be an 8, and from there the rest of the puzzle went by in a flash.

@perladel95 2 года назад

Two 3s in the corner! But only one song!

@user-kt9vr1wj6y 2 года назад

93:15 for me. I am happy to solve this puzzle. It took me about 20 minutes to figure out 30:00 the film shows.

@robbert6393 2 года назад

20:34 "this little foursome", my man just casually said it straight out lmao

@OlafDoschke 2 года назад

Simon, it's astonishing how fast you got to the logic about which color needs to be a lower digit than another one very early on. One question: I know some people will complain if you don't complete a colouring you started. But do people also complain if you remove colouring at some stage it has done its job? Because this is - again - a good case for that, once it was settled that blue=7 and 8 is on the arrow in box 9, the colours are just costing time. What strikes me is that there were a lot of consecutive pairs on the arrows. Not only because that's just forced on 2 cell arrows with a 1 on them, also the 3+4=7 arrow. Coincidence or a recipe for setting the puzzle? The only arrow without a consecutive pair is the 2+5=7 arrow.

@tobin1677 2 года назад

Double 3 in the corner, nice.

@dinidini4000 2 года назад

i cant be the only one sad that the 2nd 3 did not get the jingle for being in the lower left

@briancouchman5658 2 года назад

At 26 minutes you force blue into column 6 box 5 and thus column 5 box 8 and that made me sad… If blue was in column 6 box 8 and the number it was paired with was in row 7 box 9 then blue would also be in row 7 box 9 and repeat in the row, forcing blue into column 5 box 8 and under yellow but because the digit with blue to add to yellow was in row 7 box 9 that arrow can’t add to yellow (or it would need blue) and thus yellow is on that arrow and not 9… yellow becomes 8, blue 7, orange 4 and the other number with blue in box 8 and yellow in box 9 is 1… which is also with green in box 7… and you bypassed all that beautiful logic that I was screaming at the screen… ;)

@longwaytotipperary 2 года назад

Typoman - yes!!

@facilvenir 2 года назад

You forgot check if 8 is not equal to 5+1, but it's ok!

@glum_hippo 2 года назад

Once R6C5 was a 2-5 pair, it elminates 7=2+5 in box 5 🙂Neat!

@_-_-Sipita-_-_ 2 года назад

36:33 for me. I dont know what was the super specific thing, and i havent guessed.

@waterfrodo4304 2 года назад

Clip at 31:27 Simon suddenly disappointed by a six-nine pair

@PauxloE 2 года назад

Reading the title, I thought we had a "normal Sudoku rules don't apply" puzzle 🙂

@78aicoped 2 года назад

I cant wait to watch this one!

@highpath4776 2 года назад

Simon missed the other corner had the 3 too in his fast finishing, pity as two songs would have been good, and is not common

@stephenjames2951 2 года назад

Typoman Yes!

@toerag572 2 года назад

I'm really struggling to see the circles and arrows on this video.

@novemberdag1127 2 года назад

I just noticed you haven't used the secret... but apparently that is not the logic not used ;)

@LednacekZ 2 года назад

37:11 for me. The start is really hard.

@Gonzalo_Garcia_ 2 года назад

17:53 for me. What an awesome puzzle, loved it!!

@dontmindme2844 2 года назад

My guess is the logic missing is set theory...

@TheYashakage 2 года назад

Could someone explain to me the "3 in the corner/gets a song" reference? Great video Simon loved following along for this one

@stevieinselby 2 года назад

There's a song by REM called "Losing my religion", which features the lyrics "That's *me* in the corner, that's me in the spotlight, losing my religion". Some time ago, Simon did a puzzle that had a 3 in the corner and said as he placed it "That's three in the corner" then realised how close to the REM lyrics he was, and it's become something of a running joke since then. I'm sure a lot of constructors deliberately put a 3 in the corner just to get him to say it!

@TrackpadProductions 2 года назад

@@stevieinselby Do you know what puzzle that was, by chance?

@stevieinselby 2 года назад

@@TrackpadProductions No idea, I'm afraid, the joke has been going for a long time!

@lexihopes 2 года назад

@@stevieinselby Thanks. I picked up on it more or less, but I haven't seen the first video (or didn't notice if I did) and don't know music very well, so I never quite got it.