Hi Seth, Thank you for this overview on the performance 50ft catamaran class, with your cruising experience on one, your opinion means a lot. There are many new semi-performance cruising cats coming out in the 45ft class (HH44, balance 442, Seawind 1370, etc) that’s more attainable and easier to handle for a sailing couple. I would love to see a review of that class from you when these cats finally splash in 2022
Excellent. Thanks guys! Love this type of content for sure! Shaft drive versus sail drive discussion perhaps? Also how about a comparison of older performance cruisers between say 350K and 500K? That would be a good video for many fans who are looking to get into cruising.
I mentioned the Outremer 55 because it looks killer as far as living space goes, but I understand your reasoning. I mentioned the Explocat 52 because they claim 12 knots of average speed with room for even more and 200+ nm per day, but I also get the point about not being a performance cat - strictly speaking. If you ever get the chance to do a review on it I'm sure it'll make many of us happy. What a legend Seth is, a man in love with his family, good temper and a great communicator. I hope you'll find your place in the boat industry and continue to live the dream. All the best ✌🏻
Also worth noting that the seawind with rudders and daggerboards up draws only 2’ 1” and has Kevlar in the bottom for beaching and carbon reinforcements in a bunch of areas to significantly improve strength. But the HH is amazing… love this breakdown! Thank you!
As an experienced sailor of some 60 years, having sailed the world's oceans and raced in international yachting races, as well as having undertaken a number of cross ocean deliveries of both mono-hulls and multi-hulls, I must admit that I'm somewhat alarmed at the amount of inexperienced families I see buying up catamarans and setting off for their blue-water adventures in the expectation that they will 'learn the ropes as they go', thinking of their cats as some sort of floating caravan - which most may as well be - with no real understanding of what they are really risking. Basically, the decision for choosing a multi-hull over a mono-hull for blue-water sailing is generally based on the following: a) the extra space one gets in a multi-hull b) it feels more stable and doesn't feel so 'tippy' c) for some the extra speed is also an attraction There seems little understanding of the potential limitations of a multi-hull in heavy weather offshore sailing when I would much, much rather have my family in a solid mono-hull, than any multi-hull. The plethora of multi-hulls being offered, alongside the cheap mass produced mono-hulls which are just as great a risk, for serious blue-water/trans-oceans sailing, will unfortunately end in disaster when inadequate boats, with inadequate sailors are suddenly caught out in an unexpected storm - particularly with the the increasing weather turmoil being evidenced in these days. This is not a rant by some old 'mono-hull traditionalist', but by a worried grandfather who has only survived on two occasions at sea due to being in the right boat, with the right experience when caught out in the wrong place at the wrong time......
Hi Paul, you bring up very good and valid points. And that too from a long experience of sailing. From a physics perspective, you can argue that a multi is safer than a mono, based on different stability coefficients. But any boat owned by an inexperienced sailor can turn into an unsafe mode of transportation. This also applies to a mono. For me the aspect of speed and arriving fit at destination is a game changer compared to a mono. And some quality multis are a bargain if I compare useable m2/Euro.
A lot of beautiful designs out there and much to mull over when considering the type of sailing a skipper and crew will be doing. Thank you for putting together the comparisons for the mainstream cat builders out there. I know that took a lot of work.
From a cruising perspective I would prefer the forward helm with the sheets and winches directly in front through a door, this to me is the safest, most clever arrangement, I would also want daggerboards and ...a beachable boat!, dont think beachable was mentioned. So I would lean towards the H&H's, the 45 or 50 if they offer daggerboards and forward helms, the bucket seat with the tiller would be fun as well for day sailing...where did I put my checkbook?
Great content Seth! Keep it rolling. You are passionate about it and it's great content many of us want. A mid 40ft review would be awesome. This size is a sweet spot IMO for couples cruising with occasional guest. But of course, I would suck it up and take any of your top 3 if I stumble onto an extra $mil. Cheers.
If I am going buy a performance cruising catamaran, I would want to own the Windelo 47 Adventure, because of her simplicity but full of new innovation especially for catamaran. The more I research about the company and their thinking of building their catamaran, the more I love to own their boat !!! They are a new company but they’re second to none in my book !!! 👍👍👍❤️❤️❤️🥰🥰🥰
I have a problem with a Serial Hybrid. All you are doing is converting diesel power to electric. Is that really an electric boat? Meanwhile a parallel hybrid lets you use your excess solar power to use your diesels less, but let's be honest shall we, you cannot motor through an entire night without diesel power. My two cents (plus we smoked past one of those today in our test sail in Cannes - until they turned on their motors to cheat :). Seth
I think that by the time you are buying any of these boats new, you would have to wait for it to be built. Knowing that I would say that a number of boats like Chris Whites should be included. Loving the content, keep it up!
Thanks, useful update. Good you didn’t pick one. I guess now the next step can be to review other sizes within that class, starting with the more accessible 45 to 50 and what kind of trade offs they come with versus the 50ish class. I also like the environmental bit (manufacturing and real life usage) and trends in the market, that was quite informative so maybe worth a video by itself
I would like to see a similar comparison with boats in the 40 - 45 foot range. I think these boats are in the price range of a whole lot more people than something 50+ feet in length. We really like the Seawind 1260, and the price is pretty amazing for something that size.
My family and i love these video's. It's become one of our regular watches together (and there aren't many of these). We're on the path to go on a similar journey in a year or two. We're likely in the position of a pre-owned boat...any thoughts on a video about how to shop for a pre owned boat? Physical location / taxes etc are a complicated subject. I know there are some resources out there, but interested in your take / experience on it.
I know I’m late to the table but found it strange that you had no mention of Nautitech? They may not have DB’s but are a faster boat with creature comforts! ❤ your content and hard work, best wishes to you and family !
The new Balance 526-2 is more open between the cockpit and salon due to deleting the right post between the salon door and helm. It's also more open due to optionally deleting the propane locker to the left of the door. It has some other changes, including the helm area. IMO all the changes make it even better.
FYI balance is now building the MK2 which uses a carbon bulkhead to eliminate the support spar while maintaining strength. It'll probably make them a little more expensive but you now have an open cockpit/saloon bulkhead
This is the money shot 8:11 That water is amazing! I have no interest in buying a boat, but that moment at the end, definitely made the video. Nice work!
I was thinking the same as the first 35 comments here, not excluding the mermaid swimming at the end of the video! Please include lighting damage suppression systems. We can't a forget about Elizabeth's 2 part question as well.
Great Videos Seth.. Generally speaking (understanding price) is bigger better for handling and what not.. I guess the importance of the waterline i am trying to understand better. Great work keep it up.. HH52..... Just saying
Awesome mate...Btw the new Balance 526 does not have that post (anymore) at the yeah still smaller door, from inside to out giving more unrestricted view when at down helm position eh
The post isn't the issue we have. It's the width of the doorway. And even the fact you have to step over a lip. It makes life at anchor so much nicer if you can walk in and out without complication and if the doors are super wide. But again, that's subjective! :)
@@TheSailingFamily I’ll agree with you on the step, but I think what you might be missing is the doorway/walking space is actually the same on the 526 and HH. The HH seems more open because the cockpit and saloon table is just one giant continuation from inside to outside, but there isn’t more of an open walkway. Unless you are removing all of the tables on the HH, actually if you put seating on the opposite side of the table as well there is less room.
Thanks great vids. The Windelo needs a better look over, there’s a great video posted by their marketing team. It has out door seating and table which is modular and can travel 1100nm on a full tank on the Gen suppling 18kv. Real interesting. Thanks for your reviews!
I saw that. 1,100nm is about the same range as every sailboat. What disappoints me is the motors can only run for four hours until they are depleted. I'd worry that without any sun the boat could become essentially unusable as the generator cannot keep up with motors of that size. What's the cruising speed on generator alone? They didn't say...
@@nicokypreos The Windelo is growing on me A LOT. Yes, it's very different, but many of the solutions are very smart, including ways to simplify and make the boat lighter. What did they answer about cruising speed on generator?
I am biased but I think you were a bit harsh on the 1600 as the cheaper Outremer. I think that the 1600 build quality beats 2 out your 3 top picks (having been onboard all 4). And, the new underwater hull shape has some performance benefits - not just more weight. But alas, we are splitting hairs on an aspirational list of cats. Thanks for doing the rating and ranking - always interesting to hear new opinions.
Yeah, sorry. I think the 1600 is a good boat, but for multiple reasons I don't think it's as good as the others. Just curious, what are the benefits aside from a wider hull allowing more load carrying capacity (at the expense of weight and performance)?
Very very helpful, thank you Seth! Maybe something to add in a future excel: the amount of hydro drag, the amount of air drag, performance upwind, SA wetted service, Bruce number, stability coefficients, option for hybrid/full electric. Have a great day!
Hey Seth, great video again! "I haven't really bean paid a lot, or anything..." LOL! Yes, yes, yes, I think most of the viewers love this type of "more technical" video content. Please make more of these! Looking at the environmental impacts of the build process is info we won't find anywhere else, so please do a video on that subject. The travel videos are a blast, especially seeing how the kids react to each new place visited. Maybe it should be mentioned again that the clinic Seth did with Multihull Central is also a great resource for anyone thinking about purchasing a cruising cat: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-1RA8mh-lOcw.html Doug's description of sailing in light airs was very well stated. I remember the first time I sailed on a multihull larger than a beach or racing cat, it was a prototype MacGregor 31. The wind was only about 8 knots, coming from approx. 135 degrees at the boat would accelerate to 10 knots with each puff of wind. You could feel the rig loading up with the force of the wind, and then almost instantly that would be translated into a surge of speed. It felt like a magic carpet ride!
I love these side-by-side comparison videos mostly because I'm researching towards as world-crusier. But everyone's situation is different so I'm mainly looking for something that can hold 4 adults + 1 (maybe 2) pre-schoolers for the whole journey and 2-4 occasional guests (I wouldn't call them mules, but we all know we're heading in that direction). So as much as I would love a $1mil boat ... I'm finding the whole offer borderline claustrophobic. Hence the 60ft boat suggestion I had in the last video. Now I'm finding it difficult to pinpoint how crucial is boat speed (weight, for that matter) on such a journey. Sure, the faster you can sail in light wind the shorter the passages will be, and we'll be able to better plan routes. But do I want to sacrifice destination-comfort for speed / sailing efficiency?
Hi Seth, one boat that you have not included on your list is the NEEL 51, its a fraction cheaper than most of your low-end vessels and I feel are sexier. Three is always better than two.
We were looking at Performance Cats. But it is an intriguing consideration. They've had some quality problems and performance issues, but one to consider!
Thanks for that Seth. Great audio on this Vlog too. Who makes that choice each week? Do you dive? If you do take a trip out to the "S.S. Yongala" from either Ayr - form Alva, or Townsville. It makes the GBR look like a lame aquarium. It is such a fantastic shipwreck and the marine life is incredible. Check it out.
Very informative. I am in the process of making this decision so this was well timed. If you don't mind an unsolicited suggestion -- I can envision at some point in the future a spin off of this channel where Seth just talks boats. i.e. Product reviews, selling, buying, manufacturing process, etc. And this channel continues it focus on travel/family/home schooling/cruising etc. -- Anyways, thanks for advise on boat buying. #Boston #CapeCod #TaborAcademy
Great video series, looking forward to the video you make on hull construction materials and methods pro's & con's. Also just curious if you've considered or understand if the 25% excise tax that would be tacked onto the HH50 price if the boat was imported and flagged in the USA. On a well optioned boat that could add $400k to the price tag, ouch!
@@TheSailingFamily Gotcha, I figured their buyers would find a way around this challenge. Lead times on these boats right now are insane, so maybe by the time you'd take delivery in 2025 that stuff has all changed for the better.
Where do you place Trimarans? I group multihulls (or all boats for that matter) in the same groups. Work/Duty, Cruising, Performance, Exploring, Racing. So for boats like Neel, Rapido etc, any reason you don't count them? Aside from them not being catamarans. :) Looking forward to the materials discussion.
Great summary Seth, thank you. In your experience of cruising with a family what weight are you carrying to keep everyone happy with all of those toys, surfboards, birthday and Christmas presents and fancy dress costumes? Do you then look at max weight and how that assumed cruising weight changes performance for the different boats?
I try to keep it light and my family tries to keep it heavy. Thankfully I have been pleasantly surprised by the load carrying capability of the Outremer 51. I think it's kinda known for that. Not sure about the other boats!
I think you missed the St. Francis, if I remember correctly it's fairly light compared to some other boats and you can find videos online of them doing well over 20 knots. Just curious as to what you think. I do know that the hull design is a bit older, but I thought I read somewhere that they were working on an update.
The new SF46 is a heavy, very beamy, skeg only catamaran. It looks like it's competing more with Antares, Privilege and other Bluewater cruisers, but not technically a Performance Cat. We have friends on one though and they love it!
Hey Seth, nice job on the video... So what does Elizabeth have in her priorities for selection? We found that during our own evaluation... I got my butt handed to me because I didn't give more consideration to the 'spouse factor'... I really liked the 526 but after my wife tried the master berth over the bridge deck, she absolutely could not lie there for more than 2 minutes (touch of claustrophobia due to the proximity of the ceiling when sleeping). Another point we were trying to work into our decision (in addition to performance) was eco friendliness - ability to configure a hybrid or geneset-less boat, tons of solar, lithium batteries, running everything off the inverters, no propane, no gasoline (tender), etc. I know that most manufacturers are willing to add or change these things during the build/configuration process, but there are some on your list that do not want to stray far from their 'standard' configurations or are limited by design. Might be an idea for anther video? Anyway my vote, as seems to be the majority on your survey is for the HH50. Cheers, Monte (yes I changed my RU-vid handle - we may soon start to post videos too).
Hey Monte. We would love to check out your videos! Which boat did you go with? As for the Admiral (that’s what I call Elizabeth) I definitely involve her and let her voice be heard. She loves the Outremer for the protected cockpit with our boys, but also loves the wide open doors of the HH boats and she gets the construction strength concept as we’ve been in some hairy situations and you need to trust your boat is well made. We both dislike a forward cockpit (way too wet) and bunks over the bridge deck just means more weight forward of the mast (a big no no). So when it comes down to it, we seem pretty aligned that the OC50 has really hit the mark (for us). As for Power, there is no need for a generator these days. We have 2k of solar and we have excess power from 11am to 4pm on a sunny day. We could be making more water and running a washing machine with no problems - and an electric stovetop would be great as it keeps the heat down in the galley! So many decisions!! Argh!
@@TheSailingFamily I feel your decision making pain man... Well, my Admiral is also the newly appointed video production manager/director so I promised to let her do all the editing and video production. I've only posted one test video of me practising drone flying capturing our son hull flying our Hobie Cat at the cottage, so more to come... some time soon..maybe. So far, we have a build slot reserved with HH for the HH50 but depending on how our boat fund performs in the next few months (go bitcoin go!), we may swap out the spot for an HH55 or the Kinetic KC54 that we were test sailing last week. In either case we continue our configuration discussions with both manufacturers. As I mentioned above, we are deviating from the standard build to get the final winner just right. I also am fixated on painting the boat a very special colour (not red but different). I'll probably ask my production manager to add a configuration and build video to her production queue... I'll let you know as things progress as we near final selection and configuration. You guys still in OZ?
Love your videos. As an empty nester it would be interesting to see how that situation would change your choice of boats? Would you look at smaller cats?
Definitely love these videos. Totally agree with the top 3 and you really would be splitting hairs. I'd still the outremer 51 but as I said it would have to have a enclosed helm. Something like the knysna 51 helm 9n the ortermer would be great
@@TheSailingFamily On the 526, every hull from #17 on will have the same completely open appearance as seen on the smaller 482 and 442. The support beam next the versa-helm is gone and the window rolls back, the door slide back two positions, will be similar to the size/open feeling of the HH, we actually preferred it. No way for someone to know this yet unless they were at the Annapolis Show and spoke to the Balance team.
Thanks for your 2 cents. Very helpful. Your experience qualifies you to issue this kind of report. Now I would be interested in knowing what kind of catamaran you would build, would you be given a blank sheet of paper. On my side, I would like to have a cockpit clear of winches and ropes and all the manoeuvres from the steering station.
I like the new HH44 and O55, if I’m honest. Dual swing helms so you can see every possible side of the boat, plus the protection of the cockpit without raising the gooseneck and boom. Forward cockpits are great when it’s nice, but you wouldn’t want to be up there in the rain. I think swing helms are the way to go! Other must have features in the future should be electric drive options and front (glass) windows that fully open for airflow. The little HH44 might be too small for a family, but it has both of these too. It’s a damn impressive looking boat. -Seth
@The Sailing Family : have to disagree a bit with the DazCat 1495 performance comparison to the ORC50 . If you calculate the SA/D performance number correctly (like I suggested in a comment to you in Pt1 : SA/D= SA(sq ft)/ (D (lbs)/64)^0.6666) , you will get 30.93 for the DazCat and 35.34 for the ORC50 (higher is better) . This might explain why the ORC50 came out on top in all recent races against the DazCat 1495 . Yes , the DazCat is lighter , but this is compensated more than needed by extra Sail Area on the ORC50 , which is enabled by the bigger beam of the ORC50 without negatively impacting stability
Can you explain again why you take out the headsail and ^0.6666 it? Beam is an interesting part of the equation, isn't it?! It's hard to find a formula that really shows speed. Especially since most sailors that step onto boats like an HH or a Gunboat don't really know how to sail them correctly (push them to the limits). Interesting stuff!
@@TheSailingFamily I am not taking out the headsail , I always calculate SA as Main Sail + Jib Area . In the case of the DazCat it is 120 sqm , for the ORC50 it is 148 sqm . Raising the Displacement to the power of 0.666666 converts mass to wetted area ! This is important , coz now we have a division of two numbers with the same unit of measure and the division will give you a dimensionless number . Also , the wetted area is a linear approximation of drag (mass is not !) while total Sail Area gives you a linear approximation of Power . The division gives you a true Power to Drag ratio ! The whole intention of this formula is to acknowledge and care for the difference in scaling between mass and wetted area : the surface of a sphere scales quadratically (2nd degree) with the radius , while volume (and thus mass) scales cubically (3d degree) as a function of radius : 2/3 (0.6666666) of 3 = 2 ! Voila , that is all there is to it . Pretty simple . If you don't believe me , do a google search for SA/D performance metric for sail boats . This one pops up immediately : en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sail_Area-Displacement_ratio#:~:text=The%20Sail%20Area%2DDisplacement%20ratio,salt%20water%20weights%2064%20pounds).
@@TheSailingFamily Putting Power to Drag ratio in a better context , do realize that Drag scales as a 3d degree polynomial as a function of speed in fluid dynamics (hydro and aero) . As speed doubles , power needs to increase by a factor of 2^3=8 to overcome this 8-fold drag . Inversely , a doubled Power/Drag ratio only gives you a 2^0.33333=1.25 x increase in speed
seawind 1600 ver 2 is 100mm wider hull with more storage, larger beds and a changed bathroom configuration. Original a customer requested the configuration which would entailed changing the mould. Must have liked the change of design and offering as an option. Search the web about this seawind did a video on it with the original customer
I heard from a broker that the first one didn't float on its lines, thus the change. Given the expense of redesigning a hull and changing the moulds, I highly doubt that Seawind did this purely for a customer request, but that could be true? I don't want to make any unwarranted accusations.
As with many things, it's subjective and suits different people. The advantage of a forward cockpit is that it removes all the lines and dangerous running rigging from the living areas. The negative is that when going to windward or in the rain, you are more exposed to the weather. But the windelo seems to have a clever design where you might be able to do all that from the protection of the cockpit? Docking would be difficult because you cannot judge distances to the dock that easily, and there is not a super comfortable helm seat to steer from. The last negative is that it uses much of what could be living space, so the salon is smaller than most and the back deck seating is non-existent. But it's an interesting take on the concept. ~S
I think they're fast monohulls. 😁 Very cool boats, but the whole point of a catamaran is to widen the living areas, so a trimaran doesn't make sense to use (with a family) to live on. You'd have to get a crazy long one (like a Rapido 60) to even begin to make sense, but even then, for us, we would never go that route.
@@TheSailingFamily Ok what about if our family is already grown up and we might have visitors but primarily shallow waters.. Was thinking tri for shallow water and speed for getting out of way of weather as much as possible.. Coastal but some blue water...
Anybody got any good recommendations for channels building kit cats? I only know of Mat and Jessica's. I just did a search and got lots of power boats.
It gets us enthused to consider the future of catamaran construction. New materials, and equipment. Tesla had 6,000 patents that our army stold when he died 80 years ago. Kodak is working on many of them today. As I mentioned earlyer. Two Russian students made the first graphene in 2004, and won the Nobel Prize for science that year. I think countries around the world are working quietly, and feverishly to easily mass produce it. It is just carbon like a diamond is just carbon. It is 300 times strong as steel. This nano chicken wire will not let the hydrogen atom pas through. You have to burn holes in it to filter salt out of it. Unlike water makers you don't need osmosis preasure to filter water. Batteries can be replaced with fast charging capacitors. Six Air Force One 747 airplanes can be made for the same weight of one aluminum bird. The problem I see is epoxies, and adhesives have not kept up with this amazing material. your computer screen, circuits, electronics, boat wireing, and electric motors will be made of graphene. Not to mention solar panels, sails, rigging, and mast. We will lose a lot of weight. Fair Winds!
I think you copped out..gave us the objective view, but not the subjective..you are allowed to say which boat you would pick and why, even if this differs from which we would choose and why. Man up, dude!!
You might be right. I probably should have said that the HH is the nicest, but it costs the most. The Outremer is the cheapest, so offers the best value. The Balance is a different design that puts cabins over the bridgedeck, so it is slowest, but if that appeals to people buy that one. I could have given more reasons... ~Seth
