The Bible Does Not Condemn Abortion | Renegade Cut 

A few people have asked about a few verses in Numbers collectively called The Ordeal of the Bitter Water as a pro-choice argument. It's a "trial" to determine if a woman has been faithful. Basically, if she takes the potion and is innocent of adultery, she will be OK. If she takes the potion and is guilty of adultery, something will allegedly happen to her reproductive organs. It's unclear exactly what because the translation could refer to a fetus but could also mean her uterus altogether. The hypothetical woman may not even be pregnant if it is the latter. It's more complicated than that, but in short, this is not permission for abortion and may not actually be about an abortion at all. The circumstances are so bizarre and the "trial" so supernatural that it's a bit of a stretch, even if this is a close to referencing abortion as the Bible gets. (I probably should have mentioned it in the video, but it's...really out there, hard to pin down exactly what is meant by this, and likely not what we're looking for.)

Of course it doesn’t. Ronald Reagan was pro-choice until he discovered that abortion was a power grift in the 1970s

"they might want to consider reading [the Holy Bible] again." Again? The majority of them haven't read it the first time.

I'm Jewish (orthodox adjacent) & when I was well into my 2nd trimester, I had to decide if I would terminate my son due to brain abnormalities, but it was left in my hands. Worst choice I've ever had to be faced with, so I sought spiritual advice. I had some very high up, respected Orthodox rabbis visit me & I was told that according to Jewish law I could have an abortion if I chose to. So it's definitely okay, even in the extreme case. I chose to have my special needs son, but I now am so pro-choice. That decision should be a woman's to work through, not the governments!

"what's important to them: their relationship with God." Bold of you to assume it's this and not controlling women that's important to them.

Great video. As a Christian myself, I've tended to lean more on the pro-life side for most of my life. But moving to West Texas, my views have radically changed in part by my relationships with more leftist and non-Christians. The recent abortion policies in Texas certainly didn't help. What made me change the most was seeing the glaring hypocrisy from a lot of Christian positions. They will fight to the death to prevent an abortion but literally do jack shit to help them once they are born. What annoyed me the most was how pro-life advocates never teach their kids about sex or sex-education. If nothing else, the pro-Choice position allows for the protection of women's reproductive rights from being abused while also mitigating long-term social consequences.

lol Someone didn't watch the video, made a comment, then when everyone dunked on him, tried to edit his comment to be about something else, not realizing that this is a moderated comments section and that edited comments are like all the others -- subject to approval in the RU-vid dashboard. He thought he would pull a fast one. His attempt at a new comment was about another verse -- this time from the Gospels -- that also does not condemn abortion, but because it says "womb" he thinks it does. It's literally what I said in the video. Searching for verses that are almost about the subject but are not. Nice try, doofus. For those who saw it before he dirty edited, it was the eagle avatar guy. (He's still trying to cover it up, but I am done with him.)

The Catholic Church before the 1800s, PROVIDED ergot for abortions. It's not just they didn't condemn, they facilitated and supported as part of their duty to pastoral care. The turn against it was 100% political, as anti-abortion movements were popular in secular politics at the time and they changed to matched a secular trend that has now long since passed. The claim 'pro-life' is a traditional issue is a lie, it is a modern position driven by modern politics not religious tradition.

In fact, as a religious Jew, anti abortion laws are an infringement of my religious freedom. In Judaism if a pregnant woman’s life is in danger an abortion is required, in some interpretations up until birth. Going back to Torah evidence, and Talmudic texts, abortion was considered not only not murder, but in certain cases it is commanded and is a holy act. Life must be protected against all odds, and in Jewish tradition this means the life of the mother, not the fetus. Even in the most traditional orthodox communities abortions are absolutely normalized if the woman’s life is act risk either mentally or physically.

Thank you for actually researching the Jewish understanding of the Tanakh (Hebrew Bible). You have consistently done this in your videos, unfortunately a rarity for a gentile creator.

I took a class on Jewish Feminism in college and was really interested/surprised to learn about the history of Jewish birth control, as a culturally Christian atheist. What modern conservative Christians want us to believe about the Bible is very far from the initial text and the beliefs of many of the people who have historically viewed it as sacred!

I think it really stems from a feeling of children as property of the father. They feel that aborting the fetus is denying the father's property rights. They love property rights. Notice how that feeling is not based in empathy, compassion, or care for any possible child outside of the fetus's value as property..

Church and State should ALWAYS be separate.

I think it boils down to one thing. Does a person (of any age) have the right to use another persons body without their permission? No = pro choice

This was actually an assignment I did in philosophy: my group did abortion as the subject of ethical consideration, and my portion was on religious philosophies regarding abortion. I wrote down two columns with bible verses under each, and I labeled the first one "pro life" and gave the examples of verses given as a notion that the bible is pro life, and explained why they were all actually very vague and didn't necessarily demand some hard limit on abortion, they merely stated a notion of some kind of relationship between humans and God at all stages of life, basically, just a way to show the knowledge and power of God, and usually only ever actually related back to a relationship between God and his tribe of Israel, not all people on Earth. It was only after I opined on that column that I labeled the second one: pro abortion, not pro choice, pro abortion, and listed out all of the ways in which God encouraged forced abortion in war, sometimes it's okay to kill babies (not ZEF's, actual, born, babies), and you should attempt a forced abortion within your tribe if you think your wife is cheating on you, by basically making them drink a kind of toxic sludge which might induce an abortion, but not always, and would thereby act as a determinant of whether or not the baby was of the woman's husband (if it died, it supposedly wasn't, if it survived, it supposedly was).

*Me, eating a bucket of Kentucky Fried Owl, looks up suddenly* “What was that last one?”

Much like most things the Conservatives push, Jesus didn't say that. Like, it's debatable that even the Bible condems homosexuality. Not that that stops me from being as bisexual as I like.

Well, In a community that is terrified of their impending minority status, it’s understandable why they would embrace the pro-life political stance, no matter how incongruent it may be with their scripture. We’re talkin’ not just religious belief, but just plain ol’ POWER.

pro life isn't even about religion, it's about eugenics.

Dude even when Gabriel comes to Mary he’s like “Yo wassup I was talking to god and he says u totes gonna birth the messiah” and she’s like “wtf dude? How tf would that work?” Ya know…like asking questions about it and the process and her body then Gabriel tells her about it and she accepts it and is like “cool im down.” Ya know…she CHOSE to have a baby. Then after she accepts Gabriel says “dope. Let’s do this.” God let Mary choose if she wanted to have a baby. If god didnt think a woman had the right to make that decision for herself then he would have just put Jesus all up in there and made her deal w it. 27 He went to a woman who had never had a man. Her name was Mary. She was promised in marriage to a man named Joseph. Joseph was of the family of David. 28 The angel came to her and said, “You are honored very much. You are a favored woman. The Lord is with you. *You are chosen from among many women.” 29 When she saw the angel, she was troubled at his words. She thought about what had been said. 30 The angel said to her, “Mary, do not be afraid. You have found favor with God. 31 See! You are to become a mother and have a Son. You are to give Him the name Jesus. 32 He will be great. He will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give Him the place where His early father David sat. 33 He will be King over the family of Jacob forever and His nation will have no end.” 34 Mary said to the angel, “How will this happen? I have never had a man.” 35 The angel said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come on you. The power of the Most High will cover you. The holy Child you give birth to will be called the Son of God. 36 “See, your cousin Elizabeth, as old as she is, is going to give birth to a child. She was not able to have children before, but now she is in her sixth month. 37 For God can do all things.” 38 Then Mary said, “I am willing to be used of the Lord. Let it happen to me as you have said.” Then the angel went away from her.

I just rewatched a few of your videos to get my renegade fix. And here's a new one. Bless you.

“Mark my word, if and when these preachers get control of the [Republican] party, and they're sure trying to do so, it's going to be a terrible damn problem. Frankly, these people frighten me. Politics and governing demand compromise. But these Christians believe they are acting in the name of God, so they can't and won't compromise. I know, I've tried to deal with them.” ~Barry Goldwater

The Seventh-Day Adventist Church is in a way, “naturally” pro-choice because its theology states that human beings ARE souls, they don’t HAVE souls. There is no component of a person like a soul that is immortal. A body only becomes a soul when they have the breath of life in them, as is described in Genesis at Adam’s creation. At death, a person’s breath returns to God and their body “sleeps” until Christ returns. It is our brains+ life that makes us living beings in Adventist theology, and nothing about a person that is eternal or is currently living on in either heaven or hell or anywhere on earth. The idea that the body is simply a vessel for the soul ( any body, even one that isn’t developed enough to have a brain, and by extension, a Woman’s body being a vessel for THAT), is a carryover from Catholicism. The sexism of it is staggering.

If a fetus is aborted, wouldn't God reassign that individual soul to another fetus?

Pro-life is religion. I believe in the separation of church and state.

Note on the Catholic position that (all) abortion is murder. One 16th century pope (Sixtus V) did issue a bull declaring all abortions murder in 1588 but this was rescinded by the next pope (Gregory XIV) in about 1591, however technically that still meant abortions after ensoulment were still homicides, but ensoulment was determined in that pronouncement to be 166 days into pregnancy which is late in the 2nd trimester, it was that opinion that Pius IX reversed in 1869 to declare all abortions murder (again). I assume this is aside from the question of whether procuring abortions etc. was a sin or oopsie etc. other than being murder, I am guessing it may have continued to be a lesser sin even when not murder. However since the rhetoric of pro-life is often something simplistic like "abortion is murder" this is not important. The context of the 1588 bull and the walk back from it illustrate that abortion was not unknown and was clearly somewhat tolerated. The back and forth illustrate that Catholic theology is hardly univocal and full throated in its principled condemnation of abortion which is the key point. Fun fact some Catholic saints listed miracles include making pregnant woman's fetuses disappear, not the most accessible or reliable abortion provider, but at least a little ironic given later positions. Most of this I just learned from an article entitled: "The history of Catholic teaching on abortion is not as clear cut as you think." by Molly Monk I knew about the 16th century "abortion is homicide" declaration from: "What a 16th century abortion ban revealed." by Livia Girshon This was based on work by my friend John Christopoulos who has written academic journal articles on medical history such as "Abortion and the Confessional in Counter-Reformation Italy" and has a book Abortion in Early Modern Italy if you want a to read an academic history of abortion in that time period (I have never read either of these things but I am thinking about it).

As somebody who has converted to Judaism. Most verses of the Hebrew bible that Christians site are mistranslations of another translation, of another translation, of an Aramaic translation of Hebrew scripts. It’s like a game of telephone that happened over time.

Leon-this is one of the most important videos I think I have seen in a while. I am not religious myself but have had some wonderful experiences studying theology when I attended a catholic university and feel this attitude towards the actual text and more importantly the meaning of it is often lost on modern readers, unfortunately. There is tremendous value in the context in which the bible came about, and it seems way too many people completely ignore that. Your point of abortion being known and existing at the time of the bible being written is one of great importance, as there is very little that did NOT make it in if there was not some social importance of the issue. It is a real shame those who commit their life to a text cannot even be bothered to understand it. Hopefully a few will stumble across your video with an open mind

"Reproductive rights are about to face its greatest challenge this century in the United States" - Renegade Cut Yikes, didn't know it would be this soon...

I know that your temperament is very stoic (thats how you are, im not judging) but is always a delight to see you have fun with stuff like a rule about not eating owls

Great video! I highly recommend Michael Parenti's book "God And His Demons" which talks about how politicians cherry pick the narrative from the Bible. Here's a great snippet from the book: "Today's Bible-thumping reactionaries, however, betray glaring inconsistencies when money comes into play. In 2005, Senator Charles Grassley, a Republican from Iowa, opposed abortion and same-sex marriage because the Bible supposedly mandated such prohibitions. (In fact, the Bible does not mention abortion or same-sex marriage.) Yet the senator believed that the Bible's unequivocal and repeated condemnation of usury was of no great moment-even though passages from Deuteronomy, Exodus, Leviticus, and Nehemiah explicitly prohibit the charging of interest on loans. No matter. Grassley was a key sponsor of a bill that allowed credit card companies and banks-which already were posting soaring profits-to charge the kind of usurious lending fees and interest rates that would keep borrowers in debt servitude for most of their lives."

Even if it did, we have this magical thing called "separation of church and state".

I feel like Republican attempts to overturn Roe are like a dog chasing a car. It's exciting for the dog right until it actually catches the car. And I think any full bans on abortion in Republican states will cause a backlash that the Republican party will have a hard time with. Stripping away rights never looks good.

“They had strong opinions about *o w l s* “ ⬆️This had me CRACKING UP.

Imagine this weird concept: a high court where justices actually follow the law and constitution, and not their political prejudices and interests of those who secured them their posts. SCOTUS is a disgrace to the legal profession.

This is one of the reasons why I believe in secularism; by submitting things like Holy Scripture and personal religious conviction into law, you are essentially legitimizing gut feelings and phantom evidence as valid in our very real political systems and forcing people who don't believe it into following your religion, and that is a form of tyranny. I have mixed feelings on abortion, but at the end of the day, the pro-choice crowd believes in a woman's right to personal autonomy, and the anti-abortion crowd do not. Republicans and Conservatives can go on and on about how much they love "freedom", yet all I ever see is them doing everything they can to restrict people's options. The right to marry whoever you want (or even just have sex), the right to do recreational drugs and so on. They claim that Leftists are anti-freedom for wanting gun control and better wages and paid-leave, but they are defending the right of the few (who were already wealthy and powerful) at the expense of the impoverished many, as well as defending your right to kill innocent people at the expense of everyone else's rights no to die.

I love how ridiculous that list of birds you can't eat is. But hey, at least they're being specific with their rules instead of overly vague!

I hope that this means that there's going to be a long and very detailed video about horrible pro life movies like Voiceless, Unplanned, The Life Zone and it's sequel Cries of the Unborn and last but not least Roe v. Wade

In the early days after Roe vs Wade, the Evangelicals were silent on the issue. In fact, some prominent Evangelicals did not contest abortion back then. They (rightly) saw that as a private matter.

Love these videos of yours. It displays how religion evolves, adapts and changes over centuries and millennia. The fact is many capitalistic conservatives in America would even disagree with a lot of Christ’s economic views back then. A lot of his ideas were socialist in nature. The early Church was very different from modern Christianity, in fact, I’d say the early Church is still very different than when Catholicism was founded a few centuries later. Christianity also saw huge changes in the mid 19th century after the Civil War. At least in America, this is evident in how so many politicians before 1850 were Deists/Deistic Christians, or in how the rapture/end times interpretations play out (Scofield comes to mind). I believe it was after reconstruction that there was a huge religious conservative revival to appease states into forming a stronger union.

Excellent video. As a young scholar and pro-choice Catholic, I spent my free hours in college researching all the ways to use the Bible and other church letters and doctrine to shore up my defense of pro-choice and birth control. (Nerdy, I know.) Yet my arguments were brushed away as I didn't understand what I had read or the spirit didn't move me or whatever. It was then I realized historical context is an important tool to understanding literature.

Thank you for this. The pro-life position is overwhelmingly held by the religious, so weve always needed to approach from a theological perspective rather than get bogged down over the semantics of wether or not a fetus counts as 'alive'. Whenever I had this discussion, I've always pointed out that if we grant that humans have souls, and that innocent souls go to the (Christian) heaven, then the abortion of a fetus would be simply return-to-sender and would have no actual moral or ethical conciquences. That soul is back in heaven where it is just fine and presumably might get another shot at being born (depending on your view on heaven and how souls work). Meanwhile the mother can always pray for forgiveness. While I don't advocate getting abortions at reckless abandon its also not that critical and not worth a moral panic over. The ancient Hebrews understood this which is why there is a verse in the Old Testament that details what appears to be an abortion ritual

Great video! As a Hebrew speaker, your pronunciation isn't far off.

A new video, what a great Halloween present. Thank you RC!

All told, that pronunciation of רצח is pretty good. Descending into the particulars is part and parcel of Talmudic studies.

A great presentation, I really hope it gets to the people who most need to see it

Pro-lifer: Thou shalt not kill. Me: Are you pro-military? PL: yes Me: pro-gun? PL: yes Me: Pro death penalty? PL: yes. Me:....k then P

Watching this after listening to the SCOTUS oral arguments about TX's SB 8. This is so informational!

In middle school my teacher did a special lesson on the witch hunt. One of the reason behind the witch hunt in northern Europe was to substitute village herbalists (usually women) with pharmacists. And herborists used to practice abortion.

In addition to your comment about the trial, I wish you had also mentioned the “I knew you in the womb” verse, which is what I hear most. I think it’s supposed to be specific to an individual but 🤷‍♀️ I haven’t read the Bible. I really hope that people leave off this terrible conviction that abortion is condemned by god but doubt that will ever happen 💙

I wish, as a concerned person, that we could please stop calling those who are against abortion "pro-life." I believe the proper term is "forced birth," ie allowing the government to force people to give birth at will. This movement is not concerned with any kind of 'life,' even that of the unborn. Otherwise compelling video.

Thank you. This is well-researched and 100% truth. Its sad that the personal convictions of a few have precedence over my rights as a human being to control my own body.

Another Renegade banger. Thank you for this.

Hey Leon, any chance you can post the script you used for this? I think it's important as ever to make these points clear to people who will absolutely not watch this.

Thank god for this video. This was very needed as of recently

Man, a bunch of really top notch points I've never heard! Love your channel and your videos.

I’m pretty sure that Amy Coney Barrett wrote that, because of her faith, she would recuse herself from any decision-making wrt the death penalty. So, if she would do that for the death penalty, she should also do it for any other RC faith-based issue, like contraception & abortion. I hope she didn’t lie about that.

this channel has quality content

This video must have received many complaints hence RU-vid place no advertisement clips on it.

Excellent video, as always. Kind of surprised you didn't mention Numbers 5:11 - 31. This "Test for an Unfaithful Wife" is a pretty clear Biblical endorsement of abortion. Edit: I see you've addressed this elsewhere and said that these verses do not endorse or condemn abortion. But they do say that if the wife has been unfaithful, her "womb will miscarry." This is about a priest performing an abortion, sanctioned by God, which sounds like an endorsement to me.

The Bible doesn’t say anything actually...

Great PSA style video. I have been binging your stuff lately and I noticed the regular outro was missing which fits with the PSA use case and the more compact length. (When this came up in my sub feed I was hoping for a long one) Now who should I forward this to? ... and where is that patreon link? 😉

Well researched and reasoned. The Hebrew tribes, being shepherds, understood biology of course. I concur that the absence of any specific prohibition, or of any mention of deliberately induced miscarriages, torpedoes any Biblical basis against abortion. If such a verse existed, they would shout it in our faces until every person knew the line verbatum. I will offer three additions. Firstly, given what little I know of ancient Semitic culture, I'd conjecture their lawmakers considered this an exclusively feminine matter. They may even have felt themselves, being men, unqualified to opine on the topic. This seems to me a reasonable explanation. Second, based on my understanding of the American Evangelical sect, they evolved from the Prohibition movement of the early 20th century. When prohibition passed into law, only to be defied and revoked, they found themselves without a "wedge issue" to define themselves from other branches of Christianity. Men such as Robertson and Falwell no doubt felt the need of some divisive cause to rally parishioners around. I predict that a prohibition of abortion will run the same course as the prohibition of alcohol. Then their successors will find some new issue.... Finally, I feel that men dictating to women on this matter is inherently unjust, sexist, and presumes that men's judgment exceeds women's in all cases -- in sum, exactly the sort of chauvinistic stance endemic to Christianity. While the Bible may not prohibit abortion, it does explicitly condemn women to servility. That Christians today do not consider the inherit folly of men, not one of whom understands pregnancy as intimately as any woman, dictating to women what they may or may not do with the most intimate parts of their bodies... seems all too much in character.

As a European the Us debate over abortion makes no sence to me in Europe right wingers even are pro choice

Thank you for the incredible work you do & sharing it in an easy-to-understand easy

Thank you for your thorough research, as always, you deserve way more attention

Thank you for talking about this. This contradiction between doctrine and the Bible has been vexing me for years.

I'm surprised you didnt talk about the actual forced abortion in Numbers. If a man feel jealous or suspects his wife was unfaithful he can take her to the temple where she will be forced to drink bitter waters from the priest. If she retains the fetus its declared her husbands child/gods will if she miscarried then she was unfaithful and punished.

But eating owls is a hoot.

Where do you get your b-roll stock footage? You have some really good stock footage in this video

I saw the title and thought "I'm in. Lets do this."

unfortunately this dosen't work well on catholics bc they don't believe man can fully comprehend the Bible and God's word needs the church as interpretators or conduits

I am always in the mood for some Leon-reading-Bible video

Always something interesting when you upload 😊

It’s like convincing someone who wants to be in a hate mob to not be in a hate mob; they’re in a hate mob - exactly what they want- and have no incentive to ever agree otherwise.

Interesting take. Would like to see you converse with a well read religious person to discuss your points more. Specifically regarding Catholicism as doctrines come and go and you kinda glossed over that part. Always interesting seeing others perspective thanks

My problem with using the bible is that you can find an argument for and against wedge issue so can we discount it?

I am prochoice, and this video has some very helpful information in it. But how would I respond to a prolifer who quotes Jeremiah 1:5. Also, where can I find evidence that abortion existed in bible times?

Ok so I know this has nothing to do with the topic but the one guy at 7:40 on the right with the hood on was on a show called 60 days in. I had to point that out. Carry On.....

Called it! :(

I desperately need to know what the hell happened to warrant the rule about eating owls in the bible. Excellent video by the way

What amazes me is people who harm and abuse children (outside the womb) hardly get any punishment, so it doesnt surprise me to see little care for whats inside the womb. I am for abortion when it comes to certain serious reasons like rape or incest, serious health risks or situations,child pregnancy.....but its weird how there are people who will not take accountability and want to protect their womb only after getting pregnant.... They dont practice protecting their womb before getting pregnant(in normal cases).... Why not just get fixed for good or get a temporary fix if you choose to get pregnant later?.... Besides that there should not be any argument over serious cases having abortions. The worry society wise is that it further desensitizes people of life in general , and that is a pretty big deal if everyone starts agreeing and believing a fetus is no big deal....

Brief and straight to the point. Good work.

Fantastic video, thank you for this

Anyway I contact Leon? I have a video topic I think he would like that I literally haven't srrn anywhere on youtube. Seems like no one has even thought about it somehow. Maybe I should make my own video about it.

What do you think about replacing the term pro-life with the more accurate term forced-birth.

No owls...Well guess I'm going to hell after all.

I always have fun reminding people that even the PURITANS were okay with abortion.

I believe in the middle ages, a fetus wasn't considered a baby until the *Quickening* that is until one could feel the baby move.

The verse about the people fighting leading to either the miscarriage or the death of the woman…technically then if a woman is forced to carry to term and she loses her life as a result of it, shouldn’t the parties that prevented her from having an abortion be condemned for it?

Excellent food for thought…thank you for sharing this theological analysis

I wanna know more about that "no owl-eating" rule...

I will forgive it, but I will attempt to correct it a bit, the chet (ח) sound there is a throatal cccchhhh sound. It's very common in Hebrew, as well as in Arabic and Dutch.

You're great Leon, excellent video as always.

"They had strong opinions about ✨🌟 OOOWWLS 🌟✨!!!" XD Yeah, sure curious how strong their opinion on owls in one's diet outweights the literary presence of some other supposed laws. 🤔

Basically in 2020 the conservative government in Poland has banned abortion. 2:20 it's Warsaw, Kościół Św. Krzyża (Saint Cross Church). That was a part of biggest protest in Poland since 1989.

Dang, you got me to change my views on abortion. Congratulations.

Well I’m glad we could clear that up.

I forgot, have you done a video on the bible and homosexuality?

If humans understood the layers of dimensions of infinity in the Bible, they wouldn’t claim authority over interpretation.