The big flaw with the “move on if you don’t like it argument”. 

- The Acolyte is crap... - Then don't watch it! - Really? Great. - But if it boombs it's your fault! Someone, please, make the meme and send it to Naboo!

You can’t hold Disney accountable by simply criticizing it. They don’t care. You must withhold your financial support.

It's always "don't like, don't watch" until it fails because of it. Then it's racism, sexism, or what ever ist or phobia they deside to use.

If it looks like a Sith, flys like a Sith, uses a red light saber like a Sith, and dark-side powers like a Sith, then it probably is a Sith.

Anyone who uses that argument automatically loses. They have no debating skills and it's just a deflection tactic because they have no other arguement. Shame on those who use it.

Anyone who says “if you love something you’ll make excuses for it” that’s literally how people get trapped in toxic relationships, that’s how people fail to notice destructive behaviors in their family members. They’re literally trying to justify staying in a toxic relationship with Star Wars

If you criticize the show without watching it they’ll say “well you haven’t even watched it how would you know” If you watch the show and criticize it negatively they say “if you don’t like it why are you watching it?”

“I don’t like [insert political thing] where I live.” “JuSt MoVe” Same argument. Still annoying. I _want_ to live here. I _want_ to enjoy Star Wars.

Funny how they lecture us about gatekeeping, yet they do the exact same thing when they tell us to either "Shut up" or "Don't like it? Don't watch it!" As their way of gatekeeping and silencing actual criticisms.

It is absolutely over-the-moon insane to me that there is a sizable chunk of people that think it's "toxic" to expect more from the productions made by the single largest entertainment company IN THE WORLD.

We can’t move on if Literally EVERY Franchise is being ruined by Disney

Disney: "Stop thinking and just consume new product, Thor"

8:18 this is EXACTLY what happened when the Kenobi show dropped and people complained about the lore breaking fight between Kenobi and Vader. It's pretty obvious Disney doesn't care about preserving the canon and its poetry.

The problem with modern star wars is it is made to piss off old fans, but they have no new audience to replace them with. They go out of their way to antagonize those that liked it in the past to attract a 'modern audience' which does not even exist in the first place.

I don't think Disney cares about fan criticism anymore.

Occupational Safety and Health Administration went through the tunnel to avoid the fire in Episode 3 of The Acolyte and ... entered the Lair of Shelob, who immediately found her next meal, being descended from Ungoliant herself.

Any business that doesn't please or keep paying customers, it FAILS

Hey Thor, the only “merit” I’ll give to the don’t watch argument is I think it’s time for us to stop watching because no matter how much criticism we give or if we hate watch these shows, Disney will still get money. Yes, they 100% deserve criticism but it’s clear they don’t care. I think the only way Star Wars can ever heal is if we stop giving them our money for projects we don’t support

The actor who plays Osha posted on Instagram that the older fans need to accept that they've "aged out" of Star Wars. That's an exact illustration of what you're talking about. I'm saddened that some people dismiss all criticism as being race- or gender-related, even when it's not. That sort of dismissal, to me, telegraphs very clearly that the main motivation in the writing is race- or gender-related. I can't believe that this is where we are now. It's almost as if people have, in attempting to open their hearts, completely shut off their brains. Yes, there are many bigots and jerks out there, and some of them are Star Wars fans, but it isn't fair to stereotype all Star Wars fans as such. Doing so belies the very open-mindedness and so-called "wokeness" that they pride themselves on.

Hey Thor, sorry this is a long one, but somthing I've noticed is, the weird thing about the "it's star wars, I always like star wars" crowd is that if you use the older star wars media as a reference to why you don't like the new star wars media, they tell you they don't like the old stuff, "the OT is overrated" "the eu was stupid" "the prequels were terrible" It's not so much they're obsessed with liking star wars, they're obsessed with liking what star wars is currently. I saw this in the Halo community, when halo 4 and 5 totally changed up the formula, some fans like myself didn't appreciate that, but, some fans loved it, and defended it to the death, saying they should never go back to the old art style or gameplay, but when halo infinite went back to the old art style, and halfway back to the old gameplay, they praised it, and said it was the best thing ever. Even though they fought tooth and nail against what fans like myself wanted, they seemed to not actually care all that much once an actual change did occur, because it's Halo, and they always like halo. It'd be easier if the people with no standards, who will like it no matter what would just stop talking, and let the people who want something better for the franchise effect positive change. Do you think if star wars reverted back to a higher standard of quality, they'd suddenly switch sides and say this was a good change, even though they were just fighting against it? And do you think they actually like the current state of things, or are they just putting on a show to look like a good person/fan?

Being positive about everything isn’t being a good fan it is being a good sucker.

Gatekeeping was always a good thing. Gatekeeping is how we stopped people like this from infiltrating, subverting, and destroying our community.

When they tell me it’s not for me I listen to them and I cancel my D+ subscription.

I don’t just want to just move on, I want it to be good because I care that much. Right now it’s being made by people who DON’T CARE! (Not about Star Wars or even BASIC LOGIC and continuity/consistency)

It's one if the weakest and thinnest Strawman arguments that the easily entertained Shills use because they cant accept and cope that Star Wars has been bastardized beyond recognition and can't handle the fact that The Acoshyte is just blatantly terrible

The problem with moving on is these activists just follow us to the next thing.

The big flaw with the “move on if you don’t like it argument” --> Bussiness need to make money. For that they need clients. For that they can't send them away. lol

The answer to every question that starts with "Why would they..." is: "they don't care".

Honestly moving on wouldn't be a bad idea. The only way that Disney will change course is when the franchise becomes financially unfeasible. If you want to complain do it with your wallet. Instead of hate watching like if it was Velma.

If the vast majority of people don’t like what’s going on in their country should they run away or stay and try to fix it

The last decade or so has proven that all fandoms should have had more gatekeeping

Qui gon literally said that his opponent (Maul) was trained in the Jedi arts. The "dark sider" at the end of episode 4 managed to force punch +6 Jedis, including Jedi Masters... Yet the showrunners will simply circumvene this by explaining that they're not technically called Siths. When they, as you said poses a similar threat... it's so stupid.

my brother, who's someone not at all involved with the culture war stuff and liked Asohka, hated this show, he dropped it after the 4th episode, that to me is a canary in the mine situation. Star Wars lost it's way, and they either course correct drastically or they'll keep listening to the sycophants around them and lose the regular fans.

The most common "toxic" comments I see are actually from people who like these shows insulting people who don't like them while the ones who dislike them focus their criticisms at the actual show

I really feel like Disney just wants to push aside the hardcore fans and replace them with new fans. And frankly, it almost hurts. I slightly exaggerating, but you get the picture.

My theory is that Ki-Adi-Mundi is a closet Sith.

I have so much I could say about this kind of thing. The main points are 1) gatekeeping serves a purpose. 2) Being positive about whatever slop is put in front of you isn't a virtue. 3) Making something for anyone and making something for everyone has a subtle but very important distinction.

I cancelled my Disney+ today. They raised the price again, and want to add commercials.

"paint the Jedi in a worse light" ... that is the whole point. That is the INTENT of Hedland's version of SW.

At this point this is beyond folks who defend anything with the star wars logo on it.. this is about a general lack of critical thought or decernment around good or bad story telling, writing or acting at large in our modern entertainment landscape. I can forgive 'so so' special effects or low budget production as long as there's good writing and acting, that can make up for everything in many cases.

To quote a certain Captain, “Some people move on, But not us.”

How popular is the Acolyte? June 7 - 13: 380,500,000 minutes watched This time period contains episodes 1 and 2 with 2 days of episode 3. Runtimes: Ep 1: 41 minutes Ep 2: 36 minutes Ep. 3: 42 minutes To give them Disney every benefit we will just use episodes 1 & 2 (41 mins + 36 mins = 77 mins.) Watches: 380,500,000 mins viewed/ 77 mins runtime = 4,941,558 but we will round up to 5,000,000 % of domestic Disney + subscribers: 111,300,000 US domestic as of 2022 5,000,000/111,300,000 = .0492 or 5% So at most the Acolyte is attracting 5% of the US Domestic audience. Now you know why they say that, the audience has abandoned Star Wars.

The irony and hypocrisy of the acolyte simps is incredible

"Fans" who love everything: "I have the moral high ground Thor Skywalker: "Don't try it Anakin"

“move on if you don’t like it argument” I did after The Force Awakens.

Brilliant video, I really feel you explain both the "just leave" and lore break issues super well.

Qui Gon assuming Maul is a sith is likely due to holocrons or Jedi records showing how sith looked like and acted. An order as old as the Jedi should have such information at least considering the many conflicts they had with them. And considering Qui Gon' perspective, he encountered a warrior who's really strong in the dark side and carries a red lightsaber and that's capable of talking on two Jedi at once effortlessly. I mean what else would you think?

He-man; i have the power!!! Witches; of one! He-man; i have the power!!! Witches; of two! He-man; i have the power!!! Bishop from men in tights; ahhhhhh mayonnaaaaaaaaaaise!!!

You can’t argue with people who say this. They’re delusional and if you do, it’s almost like talking to a conspiracy theorist. No matter how much Facts and Logic you throw at them, they will always somehow still believe in bs.

Hey Thor, love your content and your attitude during this hard time! Right now it’s hard to be a starwars fan… hard to be critical and be sad of the current conflict in the fan base and coming out of Lucasfilm

Didn't the opening "crawl" tell us in the first episode that the Sith have been hiding but one was going to risk discovery for revenge? I'm at work for the next few hours or I'd just check and quote verbatim. If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, mates with other ducks while weilding a red lightsaber with a voice modulated helmet and foce powers...it must be a goose... obviously.

I remember when my class went to the Tribeca Film Festival last year, I sat in on a lecture with Lin Manuel Miranda. And he actually discussed this very same issue. He talked about how it’s so much easier to shut your brain up, not edit yourself and be nice than it is to actually engage with criticism about a piece of work. And that if he could offer the aspiring writers and otherwise in the audience one piece of advice, it would be to engage the part of your brain that provides criticism. What is it you don’t like about it? Engage with that. Discuss with yourself how you can make it better and that is how you grow as a writer and as a creative. Criticism is important to art just as much as its fans.

If by made for "everyone" they mean a small group of radicals then yes it is for "everyone"

If people actually moved on and stopped feeding them money and any form of attention, they'd be out of business faster than they can say *Attack me with all your str-*

Along with the "If you don't like it, don't watch it, just leave" crowd, I'm similarly frustrated at the "No one hates Star Wars like Star Wars fans" mantra. So many times I have seen "Star Wars fans are impossible to please! They complain about everything! They hated the Prequels, Hated TFA for being too much like the OT, hated TLJ for being too different and not enough fan service, and then hated TRoS for having too much! They are never happy!" I look at this and I simply say, "Then you people aren't actually Star Wars fans", because if they were, they would've known that, in spite of the PT's shortcomings, Star Wars was thriving during the 90s and 2000s. There were books, video games, the Special Editions, Celebrations and more, and we ate it up! And the fan films were a big part of that as well. The Prequels had issues, but the worlds that Lucas brought us excited us and we loved exploring them. Playing through Battlefront 1&2 was fun no matter what faction you played as, whether it was Empire or Rebels, or Republic or CIS. And Republic Commandos was an awesome game (especially with Temuera Morrison voicing "Boss"), set completely in the Clone Wars. Overall, the fan sentiment was positive during that time, it was a Golden Age for Star Wars fans. Before the Dark Times... Before Disney... Now, while there have been some things that I have liked (TCW Siege of Mandalore and the Jedi games), the majority has been middling to outright bad. And yet that automatically means I'm impossible to please?! If Star Wars really has never been bigger, why is it that there has barely been any other media about the ST aside from Resistance? Where are all the games, shows, anything? General fan sentiment is outright hostile, with many Disney defenders libeling fellow fans for voicing criticism. I have been a fan my whole life, I know what good Star Wars is: this is not good Star Wars, and I won't accept that it is. And just so you know, there have been Star Wars projects that I did not like in the past (The Crystal Star, the unceremonious death of Crix Madine in Darksaber, the poorly balanced Revenge of the Sith game). But those saying leave have gotten their wish: I'll be watching from the sidelines, but I won't give Lucasfilm any more of my money unless I know it is good Star Wars. Because if I am toxic for having standards, then enjoy your garbage. You aren't fans: you're pigs who will eat anything dumped in your troughs with word "Star Wars" printed on it.

There's so much focus on Ki Adi Mundi that everyone seems to forget that Mace confirms what Mundi said literally right after. "I do not beleive they could have returned without our knowledge." -Because this IS there first big move against the Jedi.

We now have a decade of new fans who think this is what being a fan is. They haven't had the chance to learn anything else.

If they don't understand the anger imagine this. You're a KC Chiefs fan for 30 years. The team trades Mahomes straight up for Jay Cutler. The decide to play all games on the road for more money. They start punting on every third down to "subvert expectations" And no lineman over 200 lbs because diversity. Then a 10 year old at his first game tells you to root for someone else if you're mad. Are you getting it?

As a youngster growing up in the 70’s, Disney was always my happy place. Later on I was blessed to share that magic by taking my wife and kids there many times. Same thing applied to Star Wars. It forged a special place in my heart growing up during its glorious cultural defining era. Here again was lucky to have shared the magic moments with my wife and kids as we (wife and I) experienced the prequels then we (as a family) experienced the sequels during their childhood. Now, I feel nothing but heartache, rejection and anger at the way we’re being treated and disrespected by Disney and Lucasfilm. Kinda sad that people like KK or Iger can’t see or appreciate what came before… MTFBWY

As always, great video, Thor. As an aside, both in these comments and on Twitter I’ve noticed a lot more hateful things being said by those who claim to like the show then the other way around. Interesting, especially when you consider just how many more fans there are that don’t like it than there are that do.

brian peck and dan Schneider are the heroes of quiet on the set from a certain point of view and thats why disney hired brian peck for the suite life of zack and cody after his arrest. Disney is always the good guy 😂

Gatekeeping keeps fandoms pure and tourist free. This is what we should’ve done but we were desperate for other people to like what we like.

“Ma’am don’t pull that we’re in Boeing, whole door can come off!”

There’s no argument at all. I 100% agree. Indifference is the absolute best message to send.

I'd post a comment, however it seems like YT has silenced my voice.

I'll play devil's advocate on the "don't like it don't watch it" argument. I think there is some validity to it. Even if a person loves Star Wars they shouldn't force themselves to watch the Acolyte and critique every little thing (this isn't directed at you, Thor, just the general viewing public). Go out and enjoy something that's actually good or that you'll like. Even just rewatching the original 6 movies or the Clone Wars or playing KOTOR. That stuff is still around. Getting mad about the Acolyte isn't healthy. If it fails to entertain you don't waste precious time or money on it. Find something else to fill that void. Not watching it also makes "a point" if that is important. Less revenue and what not for the company. I haven't watched any of the Acolyte, it just sounded completely unworthy of my valuable time. There's so much out there I haven't experienced that is more worth my time than fuming about a stupid show. I don't mean this as an attack on anyone, I just think people should spend less time getting mad about one thing and start enjoying something different. What's starting to happen is everyone is getting so mad and worked up that they're starting to direct their hatred at things that don't even deserve it, and only enjoy things that align with their world view no matter how bad they actually are.

This has happened with Zelda. It’s sad, criticism that isn’t positive, or promotes buying the product is villainized, and wrong. It’s not good, nothing is perfect, shouldn’t be treated as such.

I like how these things are so bad, they are making good fanfiction seem a gift from beyond in comparsion. 😂😂

The problem with this argument is that only maybe 1% of this fandom actually levels valid criticism in a coherent, intelligent, and well-articulated manner. Spouting superlatives like "STAR WARS IS DEAD THIS IS UTTER TRIPE DISNEY SUCKS" is not valid criticism, and neither is saying Star Wars is dead because Ki-Adi-Mundi was a lot younger in a deprecated continuity. This goes TRIPLE for anyone that predicates their comments with "woke." So confronting someone with "don't watch it if you don't like it" is perfectly valid when directed at people that can't bother to present anything but surface-level criticisms. I'm ambivalent on the show currently. It's rough around the edges, and lacks the production value it should have--which, sadly, seems to be a trend among most Star Wars live-action shows not named Andor. But it's very difficult to have in-depth conversations about this show, both what it does well and what it does poorly. Unfortunately, the RU-vid algorithm favors negativity, so sifting honest good-faith criticism from grifters looking to profit from outrage is a frustrating exercise. A lot of impressionable people xerox their viewpoints and opinions from inflammatory talking heads, so this phenomenon likewise poisons the well by engendering a shallow, closed-minded echo chamber of angry fans that don't even have enough self-awareness to comprehend what they actually want from this franchise. Ask them, and it will either be some grand and ill-defined concept, or an unreasonable demand like, "JUST ADAPT ____ STORY FROM LEGENDS!!!" Sprinkle in a healthy dose of nostalgic pining for when Star Wars was "good." Not that there's ever going to be any consensus on what exactly "good" is.

If Ki Adi is part of a cover-up, it's a pretty stupid one. One that Mace and Yoda aren't even privy to. Mace even comments that he doesn't think the Sith could return without them knowing about it. Which clearly they did. It shows gross incompetence from the other Jedi to have allowed the Sith to return again. The clone wars could have been prevented had Ki Adi just told the truth.

Them: "You didn't give it a chance" Me: I don't like it. Them: "If you don't like it don't watch!" Me: OK

It's periods like this that make me miss the state of Star Wars Fandom in 1998. 3 theatrical releases that ranged from loved to well thought of. A misguided Holiday Special we were all willing to forget, a couple of cheap Ewok movies that never mattered, a Droid cartoon and an already hefty catalog of books, comics and games that were completely optional but all mostly worth the time. We were all excited for the return of Star Wars to the theater the next summer and breaking the early chat rooms with theorizing and discussions. Then came the dark times...

Acolyte villain is a Sith. They have established in new canon that the only way to get a red lightsaber now is to 'bleed' it (or steal it from someone who did). They have also established with the Ahsoka show and the Survivor game that Dark Jedi bleeding has only produced an orange lightsaber. There is a lot of content separating Dark Jedi and Sith by how deeply they give into the Dark Side. This implies that only by going full Sith can you bleed a saber crystal red.

The argument of not watching it is not to just abandon de franchise. Is to stop generating money and free advertising to them. Discussion, even if it is to complain, still generates awareness and will drive people to see what the fuss is all about. That in turns become profitable for the company. Remember that there is no such thing as bad advertising

I completely agree I'm the same, bk in 2015 months before TFA came out I got sucked into all that hype along with everyone else. I was soo obsessed with wondering what exactly the story woukd be about, what had happened with Luke/Han/Leia, I would be up till like 4am sometimes, just combing over all the concept art for that movie that got leaked on the Internet. I was obsessed, and back then I didn't mind that Disney had ended the EU, and made it into their "Legends" label, I just trusted that George had it all figured out and that Disney would actually respect his franchise. All that changed in me after TLJ. Now at this current point I've just became so emotionally drained from the whole division, from arguing with superfans who do just luv off anything with the *Star Wars* name on it, from the Sequels fans and from just Disney and the way they treat this franchise, and their overall antagonistic relationship with most us fans. I've just become apathetic. But I do totally agree with that first question and you point, infact that whole cynical thing of - "if you don't like it move along", it actually backfires hard because that rhetoric was once used on Ghostbusters fans with the 2016 GB reboot, and those fans who were told to just go away then; they did just that, in the droves and look what inturn happened to that movie. It bombed hard and killed that whole reboot. What's significant about the Acolyte show and these people Leslie Headland and main star Amandla Stenberg hitting out at the fans who are criticising their show, when it's only like half way through. I think they fail to truly realize here there are even some HR fans themselves who are not liking things about this show and the handling of certain characters; like that Vernastra Rowh. Disney are gonna alienate so many fans to such a point of no return.

I remember watching Star Wars in the movie theater. I went 20 times because it played for 2 years. Now they tell me Star Wars isn’t for me. I agree and say I don’t like it. But,…….that makes me all kinds of bad words somehow. I can’t support these people. I have to step away until they fail and are gone. They aren’t entitled to my fandom. They need to entertain me, I don’t need to entertain them.

All the robber has to do is get a toe in the door and now he owns your house.

The funniest part is they say this and then whine and moan incessantly when garbage shows and movies bomb *precisely because* a lot of people already moved on a long time ago.

Well it is grossly glancing over the fact that that if bother to argument a position on something, you have to care enough to start with.

You can just reverse this on people and say, "If you don't like my criticism then don't respond."

Stand and fight for what you believe in!!!

It wasn't harsh Thor, it was necessary. Had they left "cone-head Will Farrell" out of it, we wouldn't have been so annoyed.

To the second question and people saying in general, that it may not be Sith: Mae in episode 2 literally quotes the Sith code and the bad 'guy' (it'll be the black mom, 95% sure on that, according to IMDb she's in 3 more episodes) wears a black cloak and wields a red lightsaber

Obviously Disney doesn't understand the fans have been watching something else! In droves!

This makes sense. It's no wonder the same type of people with certain common things in their profiles will give praise to Disney Star Wars no matter what.

Dave Fillioni should really have known all this but either didn't have time to explain to Headland or just didn't know.

Man I wish a company would just get the rights to Star Wars Galaxies already.

This idea that in order to be a fan of something you must love everything about it and not criticize it is not only the opposite of fandom, but the opposite of the human experience in general. You can love a person and at the same time realize they have character flaws and want them to improve themselves: the same goes for franchises like Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, etc., and other things in life like sports teams. These companies do not want true fans, they want mindless drones that consume everything put in front of them without question.

Move on? move on to what, next product? dont ask questions just consume product. What happens if you dont like the current and future products. The only way a company changes is if you force it to - either economically or because of PR etc.

Love your takes and comments Thor. I'm curious, have you and Star Wars Theory ever hung out? I'd love to see a Thor / Theory talk. You both are my favorite SW crusaders.

Brilliant work, points are very well raised and the arguments are sound. Keep it up!!!

I wish we would just let it fail... immagine what would happen when Noone talks about it.

Trying to solve problems via honest and good faith communication is a great approach... Unless the other party is disingenuous and malicious. Then the best approach is walking away.

Slight deviation of the topic, so it states on Wookieepedia that Ki-Adi Mundi is a Jedi Master in 132 BBY (during the discussion in which Osha and Mae are discussed), and for Jedi Masters it says that "only Masters were allowed to serve on the Jedi High Council." As the statement during the discussion it's made clear "that it is the security and that the high council cannot be told because then the senate would find out." There's some irony here when one can look at Mundi in two ways. Either he ratted out the security department and told the high council and caused the events that happen in movies 1, 2 and 3. Palpatine was born in 84 BBY (48 years after these events) and was elected as a senator in 52 BBY so if the information had reached the senate because Mundi told the Jedi High Council, as a Sith Lord anything pertaining to the Jedi (obviously his sworn enemies) would get found out. So here's the rhetorical question I pose... WHY was Mundi at the lower-ranked security meeting because he's listed as a Jedi Master in 132 BBY and therefore would likely just be dealing with Jedi High Council work... or there's something about the ranking in the Jedi Order I've missed. There's a 70 year gap of story for Mundi that at some point needs to be explained...

this is the longest ad for positve doormats i've seen in a while

They tell us to go somewhere else, then when we find that new place, they follow us and start it all over again.this had led to the systematic destruction of pretty much every major ip. Star wars, star trek, dr who, lord of the rings, dnd, etc, etc

The problem with that argument is that ppl are, and with every sub-par project, that they use this argument on more and more ppl are checking out, it is ultimately self-defeating

What if someone broke your window and when you complained they told you to just move to a new house?

How did Yoda come to know that there was a rule of two with the Sith if they were gone for a millennium?

Hey Thor....this was very good. You nailed it and thank you for your wisdom!