The Big Problem in Dutch Football 

At least they can't complain about a lack of flare on the pitch.

The game discontinuing rule creates a moral hazard. When your team is losing you can just throw stuff on the pitch, having the game postponed and giving your team a chance to recover and regroup. There is a reward for breaking the rules now.

Dutchie here, yes there is a problem with football fans. I wouldn't say it's a BIG problem, but there is certainly a problem, related to societal factors as is well explained by Tifo. The policy to suspend games when an object is thrown on the pitch is well intended, but i'm not sure if it's effective.

Indonesian football has also experienced something similar for a long time. It is not uncommon for something terrible to happen, such as clashes between supporters that threaten lives. Until finally, the federation provided a solution in the form of strict rules for fans to watch. I wonder if the same thing will happen in the Netherlands

Wait till he finds out about Turkish football

Beautiful music selection as always Tifo. Well Done 🎹

Would love to hear from people from the Netherlands in this comment section about what may be causing the rise of this unrest honestly.

Just a heads up, it's AIVD, not AVID.

Joe Devine's voice takes these videos to another level.

as a dutch person, I can say you guys are right on the money. polarisation and anti-establishment uprisings have become a big thing in the last 3 years in the Netherlands

Well I never thought I’d see Geert Wilders on TIFO 😂

Dutchman here: This analysis is accurate, especially the part about the underlying unrest. But our government also finds it a bit to easy to hide behind practical matters like the fact that we have a shortage in personel at our national police. Yes we dont have the capacity to let people check in at police stations during matches, but we are not banning alcohol inside stadiums either, which could really help and shouldnt be too hard to enforce. Or any other hard measures. Our politicians prefer playing it safe with regards to public opinion. A lot is being deflected by saying: players and fans should simply behave better, because you know, expecting people to change behavior and talking tough doesnt actually cost any money... But there is another link between football and politics: former football pundits who now discuss politics during evening shows, while clearly showcasing a preference for right wing (populist) politicians. (Dutchies here know Im talking Veronica Inside, what used to be called Football Inside for a reason). Apparently, being funny and well known is enough to not just have an opinion on public matters. Which is everybody's right, but one would hope they would know a little more about these complex subjects like climate change, migration, agriculture etc. before influencing the masses. No real solutions are part of the public debate, just the emotions and pointing out what you dont like. By doing so they claim to have the voice of 'the common people', if there was a such a thing. And at the same time all these 'influencers' are being led by political / media frames, rather than actual analysis. Because that stuff is boring. Much easier to just vent your gut feeling. They might argue for being tougher on hooligans, but at the same time they do a wonderful job at dividing opions on the matters on which the underlying unrest is based. We lack the decisiveness to really adress these problems, partly because we want everybody to agree while problem analysis is being flawed by populist / political believes. Which is a very Dutch thing: we want everybody to have a say before making decisions, we love compromises and all that, but we lack the vision to go forward. And heaven forbid we upset anyone by taking decisive measures. Yet a lot more people would actually support these measures, if they werent so easily mislead.

Feyenoord’s star forwards gf attended the away game vs Ajax on their first win there in years. Her pic outside the stadium went viral making her a fan favorite 😅

A lot of the incidents in football stadiums are however, football related. Ajax and Groningen have for example been in pretty terrible form and the fans lash out by throwing things on the pitch as a protest. Ajax "fans" also raided the stadium, breaking in through doors and windows, while families are there with their kids to watch a game. Feyenoord fans throw lighters at Ajax players because they can, and dislike Ajax. To then claim it reflects society, or blame it on the covid lockdown (seriously?!) seems too easy, considering these are, generally speaking, young guys with most likely very little political insights or interest. Just an excuse to conduct violence. A big issue in the Netherlands is that people don't fear the justice system. The police and stadiums are constantly patching things up without coming up with an actual solution. (ie; better cctv in stadiums, tickets connected to ID and seats, long term bans, thorough checks for things like fireworks etc.). The herd mentality protects many of the offenders. Many of the ultras however are just that, ultras for the football club which is positive, but there is a minority within them that feel the need to riot.

Just a minor correction: the Dutch intelligence agency is called the Algemene Inlichtingen- en Veiligheidsdienst (AIVD), not AVID.

"make farming sustainable" That's a weird way to say that the government is paying a one-time fee for these farms to owners. In return, they cannot continue operations, rather than make farming sustainable they are closing farms to reduce an arbitrary number that someone in another country determined.

Belgian Scene: It's a working class game and loads of people are fed up with politics since Covid lockdowns and Totalitarian rules/laws and have built up agression since then. I also noticed an influx of a lot of young, instagram, ultras and hooligans since it's getting pretting mainstream nowadays.

Great video. Really covered it all. Seeing it as a separate issue from the ongoing societal problems is just stupid.

Really good and insightful vid, thnx lads ! Hope the situation will improve...

I work as security at the biggest stadium in the country. Was there in the middle of it during the ajax fey riots.... Let me tell you. Nobody gets paid well...they underpay their stewards...therefor they have to hire extra security, like me, these get paid very well because of legal requirement. Now imagine the type of person who would sign up for the low pay...indeed not goos security and most arent security in their daily lives. So zero experience. And at this club its still better then in other clubs...so yeah Then on the fact that in most stadiums the rules are strict af...meaning you do something wrong you get kicked out, including the one i work at. But.... This doesnt apply for the ones who cause the trouble. This is because the club leaders are scared for escalation and then having to hire extra security and havibg to be protected themselves outside the stadium. So there is a clear divide between the normal groups and the hooligans. They rule inside and they know it. Way before the ajax fey riots we all knew it was gon a happen. They announcent it even before the game even started.... Ps...tifo his views on the protests etc are really oneside and completely not true. Its worse then his pronounciation od dutch club names

I can't say for The Netherlands, but in England there's a growing number of younger fans who know nothing about how bad the football experience was in the dark days when crowd trouble was common - all the fences, restrictions, police escorts, not to mention the obvious threat of being attacked - and they see the videos online and think it's 'cool'.

I'm really missing the nuance in the link to the societal changes in my country - let's not brush over the fact that they absolutely DO have a hand in what's causing the unrest lately, but saying what's going on inside the stadiums might be a direct reflection of the whole covid-conspiracy-vaxxination craze is something that really warrants a longer explanation than just a mere 3 minutes, to avoid spreading misinformation. Which this video already did, the stated reason for the farmers' uprising simply isn't true at all. It's far from the only reason as to why it happened - i'm not picking sides here, but it's a fact that it almost looks like my government intentionally tried to create distrust between the common people over the years and, let's say, the people in charge of running the country. Because the farmers really aren't (only) angry at the fact that the government wants to make farming sustainable and less impactful on the environment, it's that they're trying to achieve this with very unrealistic deadlines without actively communicating with the farmers themselves, because the social gap between the farmland/rural part of the country, and the big cities in which the governing parties very often originate from, has never been this big. By the way, if you're speaking about violence committed by ultra's, it's crazy that you missed FC Groningen's season last year, in which they relegated and played their last games without any supporters being allowed in the away stand, and at home. A penalty which was very warranted, I should add. Still liked the video though cause it's an important topic, but these subjects REALLY are too big to cover in such a short video like this.

It's those darn video games I tell you!!!

Simply, football and its fans do not exist in a vacuum

That really went somewhere I didn't expect, it's common for politics and football to clash but I just didn't imagine I would be learning about Dutch politics today.

One of the top videos of the year so far; amazing journalism here. I just wished it was longer, like the old days. You guys are like cutting videos in half lately

The power of the semi-conductor...

I always got the feeling that the daily Dutch culture and lifestyle is quite chilled out, but football is the place where the men have their release. I’ve worked with many Dutchies here in Australia, and all the guys I’ve known are so neutral on many topics until you bring up football. That’s when their entire demeanour changes 😂

This Touring with Tommo format is nice! It’s different and made a rather technical conversation less intimidating if that makes sense.

I need to correct you at 4:35. The issueus where not the laws but the uncertainty it brought to the Farmers futures.

James montague piece is always a must watch👍

The rule where a game gets abandoned after stuff gets thrown on the pitch gives a lot of power to people in the stadium. As in the case of Ajax-Feyenoord, the Ajax fans wanted to stop the game because they were losing. And they did by repeatedly throwing stuff on the pitch.

Just some insight on the intro where you mentioned AZ twice, both of the stories aren’t completely true and the West Ham one has a way bigger story than actually got reported

There was a frighteningly bad period in Dutch football from the late 70's to the late 90's that at times was worse than the British hooliganism - you mentioned ADO Den Haag fans burning down their ground, well there was also "The Trainburners" who used to set fire to fan trains, win or lose (I think they were Fc Twente hooligans, if you know better, tell me!).

Wonderful piece

A couple of things... after Covid it felt like fans couldn't behalve. It felt like supporters needed to let go of there frustration in a weird way. Something was very weird. But the problem is that we don’t have the same laws as in England

Not all ultras are bad but for those which are...new rules ahould be implemented like...for cases where the fans of one side are responsible for disrupting the game repeatedly or responsible for harming the players,coaches or referees... the game should be stopped and the victory points should be given directly to the opposing team. There can also be point multiplication for the opposing team. Like its done in cases of cheating or quitting the match in online games.

I need to listen to Three Little Birds after all that 🇯🇲

Great video Tifo

i love the video and the background music!!

The games being suspended started when Davy Klaassen got hit with a lighter. A few months prior Feyenoord decided to put nets around their pitch in the game versus Ajax, in order to protect Ajax player (and former Feyenoord player) Steven Berghuis from being abused with foreign objects. A few months later they were playing the semifinals in the Dutch cup. Sponsors, broadcasters and fans were complaining that the nets obstructed the view, hence Feyenoord removed the net and poles in front of the camera. A skirmish between players in the second half resulted in Klaassen being hit and sending a ripple effect through the Dutch league system that has done more harm than good. In my humble opinion they have been trying to control fans by suspending games every time something is being thrown on the pitch. This has proven to be very counter productive, because it has given fans a chance to absolutely sabotage games or even self sabotage by accidentally dropping an empty plastic cup after scoring a decider in the 87th minute. The rule in itself is good, but the Dutch FA has left so many plotholes within that rule that it’s very hard to defend. I even stumbled across something funny on the internet. It was a video about FC Den Bosch supporters, who are known to be notorious troublemakers in their division. The video was all about how fan perception has changed and that they are making big steps in making their stadium a safe space without incidents. Just for the game to be suspended twice against FC Dordrecht this past weekend.🤷🏼‍♂️

Tifo out here deleting comments 😂

Wich match of fc twente has been abandoned? Cant really remember one?

Decent summary of what's going on here. One correction: AIVD, not AVID.

Funny to say hooliganism has been curbed in Turkey considering recent events.

The video is well made (few details here and there are off). But I don't agree with the premise of it, although it is a popular one within NL so I dont blame Tifo. So many games have been cancelled because the KNVB (Dutch FA) felt llike they had to do something after Klaassen bled from his head from a fan throwing a lighter. So they decided to cancel any match where fans threw objects on the pitch twice (first time is 15 min break). As per usual with the KNVB they didn't really think things through and if a team would score an epic equalizer/winner in the last minutes of the game some beers will naturally be thrown on the pitch resulting in many cancelled matches. When you look at other matches in Europe this happens all the team (even European matches in Dutch stadiums). Imo this whole topic is exaggerated and bureaucracy is working its wonders on the Dutch footballing world.

I'm a great fan of your channel. If I may point out one detailed mistake: FC Utrecht's jersey has colors split along a diagonal rather than a vertical line.

How refreshing it is for the Athletic touching on the societies other issues that has an impact on the masses , football is still the working man's sport despite the business world trying to ruin it. These 'conspiracies ' are mostly facts and is ignored by the controlled media so fair play to the Athletic

I feel the problem is the double us-vs-them that's created by the blackshirts. It's no longer just "our club vs the other club", but now it's "blackshirts vs shirts and shawls vs the other clubs" An us-vs-them is a highly successful tactic when creating something to fight for, but that is all it is. A tactic to create a relative fight towards somebody else, this'll always create aggression in the end. It sounds like something small, but I genuinely believe getting colours (the "shirts and shawls supporters) back in the stadium would create a smaller "us-vs-them" dynamic, and it'll help lower aggression in stadiums

You hit the jackpot with your conclusions here. Dutch society is twisted and sometimes just pure madness. I was always proud to be Dutch, but not anymore. We are degrading ourselves as a society and sadly I do not see an end to that. Besides that, people are stupified by the (social) media algorithms that prevent respect, sensible arguments and thinking. The Netherlands is sick. Very sick.

Bro the answer is so clear you just have to significantly increase checkpoints and scanning, ensure people don’t bring in dangerous items

Football fans are the purist concrete reflection of society. It's the biggest regular gathering of all sorts of people from different/similar background. What you see in a stadium, can give big indicators on the system of values your society has.

This was really good. Always love anything about Dutch gootball.

Farm protests are definitely something I supported (from where I am from). But the football protests, I really am not a fan of.

This doesn’t just happen with the big teams. Such things also happen in the Eerste Divisie, a level below the Eredivisie

You could have mentioned Feyenoord still plays its home games with nets all around the field as a reaction to the lighter incident in may last year.

The problem is not the violence as such, the problem is the lack of will by clubs and politicians to do anything about it. If they could do it in England, then why not in NL? The playbook is there, it has been done.

This reminds me of the Nica Riots in Konstantinopel under Justinian

Dutch person ,and personally think an lot of people lost there impulse control during covid

unrest is becoming more and more apparent in the west in general

Another great video as usual ❤

You said it right at the end!

Is the Great Reset a conspiricy theory even when Klaus Schwab (founder of the WEF) wrote a book about and how to achieve it?

Im Dutch, and the way our problems were described from 4:02 onward was so accurate and hit my right in dem feels

Hooliganism is Turkey has been curbed. Yeah we saw that at the game Trabzonspor - Fenerbahce and Rizespor - MKE Ankaragucu. The last game made TFF suspend all games in Turkey last december.

Burning down your own stadium has to be the most wild thing I’ve ever heard 🤣🤣😭.

@Tifo Video Suggestion: What went wrong with Chelsea’s Recruitment? or How did Chelsea end up signing several injury-prone or over-hyped players?

The British had a reputation in the 80s that got a lot of attention, deservedly so. It’s good to see somebody shining a light on how the normally placid Dutch are behaving now. It’s strange to see for sure and it makes you wonder what could be causing it. After all it’s not as if this kind of thing comes from nowhere. If the people are rebelling it has to be against something.

The Dutch intelligence service is called AIVD not AVID. Great video besides that!

Burning your own stadium just because your team lost!? The team didn't only just lost a game, they lost a stadium!

Hey tifo, Im not trying to be weird or something like that, Can you making a video about the Urawa Boys? (Urawa Reds Diamonds Ultras) The club has a ultras that has an controversial as well.

They should ban them for life. They need to treat these hooligans like thugs. If the fans cry, then ask them why they cannot watch their team on television. Ridiculous.

Great video

I advise Dutch fans to read about the Portsaid incident. I wish it doesn't reach that but that's the direction you're heading into. 74 dead but I like to say 75 because egyptian football died that day along with the fans.

Can you do a video analysis on Eric Roy

0:04 No it didn't... has been at this level since I was a young kid and longer before that as well. The difference is that England gradually lost that identity with the introduction of the Premier League and a alcohol ban in stadiums.

Tifo just described my country's political situation better than any journalist or politician has done here in my lifespan. Great video. Also a bit of slab on the nose in that the Dutch football culture is more toxic and ill than I thought. In my head these issues happen in every country with ultra fansbases

Just a small note, the Intelligence Service is called AIVD, not AVID

I personally think there is also a lot of hypocracy and playing the victim from a lot of these hooligans. There are certain things they are angry about that I find understandable. They dislike collective punishments, for example banning entire stadium sections for a game because of previous violence, or the banning of awayfans at 'dangerous games'. Or turning footballstadiums into prisons with high tourniquets and plexiglass encased awayends. I get it, it takes away from the fan experience, but I think it's hypocritical when they ask for different measures. Entire Ultra groups go to games wearing full black clothes with masks and hoods making them unidentifiable, and then whine when they ban the entire stadium section because of fighting. And even when individual people get stadium bans, it's suddenly unacceptable and they're the victim, just because it's one of their mates. And sure, stopping the game when people throw cups on the pitch is a bit harsh, but "it's just a cup" is not a good excuse for being a facking asshole. DON'T THROW SH*T ON THE PITCH! how hard can it be?! They are always excusing there own behaviour "because it's not that bad" or "it only happens a few times". If you want the KNVB to give you respect, than behave yourselfs aswell. the fact that so many people just don't get that is so frustrating. I love the ultra's and fan actions and the chanting and all that stuff during games, which is why I think it's such a shame it has to be ruined by some people.

"Pirate equity" 3:25 There's an Always Sunny clip about that.

Just said in the comments about the so called great reset conspiracy. Told them you can buy the book the great reset by klaus schwab, founder of the World Economic Forum. Comment was deleted. Unsubbed now. I suggest if anyone seeing this before its deleted and has any moral backbone to just leave these clowns now. A shame, it was good when it was just football and not pro establishment propaganda. Good riddance.

Ado den haag supporter here Holligannisme is a thing in the early days my dad told me a lot of it

Great content and something to definitely think about. I am a Dutch person living in Germany for a while and I think it is very important for all of us in Europe to be active politically. There is a huge call on the “silent majority” in Germany so that awful events or ways of thinking from the past don’t happen again. As ever, very interesting Tifo!

its 100% not just younf football fans its a combination of clubs not lisseing to there fans or atleast lend a ear to hear em out

I haven’t watched Tifo in a while, what happened to their art style?

Can't forget when Alvarado, (former goalkeeper for AZ from Costa Rica) beat up a fan many years ago 😂

As a Belgian football fan: i know the rules in the Netherlands are very strict nowadays and they cancel games much faster then in Belgium.

who do you work for bro

Meanwhile in the League of Ireland we can't even have a flair or a tifo despite it being the only appeal of going, because I promise the football quality on the pitch is not our selling point

Wow

As a Dutch person, I want to express that our government is currently trying to distract people from its bad policies and are putting a lot of the blame on ordinary and unhappy citizens when they protest against said policies and its effects. Society is getting more and more tough and this is reflected in football, like anywhere else in the world. Also, the rules imposed by the KNVB are preposterously strict, in my opinion and the Dutch government should take responsibility for their failures first and then point the finger at others.

4:48 part of this craaaaazy conspiracy theory that Klaus Schwab wrote in his own book and is clearly applying every step he describes, like limiting the amount of food the farmers can produce in the Netherlands, making even them have to "off" their cows due to nitrogen emissions, which is a big reason for the prostest, but hahahaha those crazy theorists are so crazy

This isn’t a critique, and I don’t think Tifo is co-signing these beliefs, but the phrase “antivaxers *and* conspiracy theorists” was very funny

Fascinating. Football is inexplicably linked to wider social issues. The material conditions across Netherlands but also the world are changing rapidly. Capitalisms woes express themselves in Football all the time

50 seconds is kinda wild

Natural thing in societies. When there are little to no problems, someone must make one, and they will offer an extreme solution. A tale as old as time. We all promised we wouldn't do it again, but look at us repeating history.

Imagine if this was happening in England. Clubs would be kicked out of European competitions so fast

5:01 It’s the AIVD…

How can a team up 3-0 go on to have the match abandoned. That stupid rule give the losing team incentives to stop the match.

Was digging the video then it jus ended seems this deserves a proper ending or it least been talked about more thers 10000 people in a stadium an they all jus watch 10 people ruin the game a real football fan would stop them or it least try