The BIG Problem with the Baseball Hall of Fame 

When you hear the MF DOOM start up you know it’s about to really get going

Honestly, the main that rubs me the wrong way about Hall of Fame voting is the way journeymen are treated, even when they have Hall of Fame stats. Like you gotta commit to one or two teams throughout your career or else you won't get in. It's like slut shaming for baseball.

Mariano Rivera being the ONLY unanimous winner tells me all i need to know about this stupid HOF and its voters.

I went from Puerto Rico to Cooperstown for Edgar in July 2019. On Induction Day a family that flew from Seattle placed their seats near me, they wore Edgar jerseys and had signs celebrating his enshrinement. They were having a photo session and when the guy with the camera said Say Cheese I couldn't contain myself and said, "Hey, why not say Eeeeddddgarrrrrr !!!" It was magical !!! They laughed a lot and had a great time taking photos. Afterwards the father of the family came to me, addressed the Team Puerto Rico 🇵🇷 jersey and matching cap I was wearing, shook my hand and in a sort of emotional way said 'Thank You, for him, he saved baseball for us in Seattle'. Needless to say, I was so touched I couldn't utter a word. A moment I will never forget.

I prefer team Hall of Fames over the MLB HoF anyway. Jim Edmonds is in the Cardinals, Will Clark is in the Giants, etc. The fans and teams these players played for can ensure their careers are recognized and appreciated.

David Ortiz age 27 - retirement 1953 games, 8398 plate appearances Carlos Delgado age 24 - retirement 1953 games, 8397 plate appearances Their 162 game averages during their prime: Ortiz 100 runs, 43 doubles, 40 HR, 127 RBI, .290 AVG .386 OBP, .956 OPS, 148 OPS+, 4.1 WAR Delgado 101 runs, 40 doubles, 38 HR, 123 RBI, .283 AVG, .380 OBP, .937 OPS, 140 OPS+, 3.5 WAR One gets inducted in their first year of eligibility, the other fails to receive the necessary 5% of the vote to stay on the ballot

I think the easiest change would be to get rid of the 10 vote limit. Either the players are good enough or not. It’s an arbitrary number that doesn’t accurately reflect the caliber of players the writers vote for. There shouldn’t be a limit on the hall of fame. Players are either good enough or not.

Something you forgot to mention with Will Clark is that he played more than half his career with Chandlestick Park as his home park, one of the most notoriously hitter unfriendly parks in recent history that significantly depressed his traditional stats. Like in his 1989 MVP runnerup year, at home he slashed .325/.394/.516/.910, while on the road he hit .341/.420/.572/.992. Yet while the HOF voters for so long overly penalized Coors hitters (and some still were this past vote in their reasoning for not voting for Helton), they never gave an appropriate counter boost to hitters that predominantly played in pitcher parks. Alongside Clark, I also like to bring up Olerud, another contemporary well-rounded first baseman that was better than McGriff, yet also went one-and-done just because he didn't hit a lot of home runs.

Glad someone FINALLY covered Clark.

To me, the biggest hipocrisy is to not vote for some "so-called" steroid guys based on hearsay, suspicion, assumption but no positive test, yet vote in a guy like Ortiz who DID test positive. That he did before it was "illegal" sure, but he CLEARLY cheated too.

As a lifelong Mariner fan, and someone who grew up watching Edgar, seeing him get the HoF nod was so satisfying.

I feel like the one and out needs to be changed. Give them three years to fully determine if they belong. That would mean an increase of the percentage to stay on would also happen. Maybe have it at 10 or 15%. With the increase in the ballot names, some players may be off ballots. You mentioned Werth and Weaver getting in last years ballot even though they shouldn't. Those type of players could be one and done or removed from the ballot entirely. TLDR; Move the 5%(or more) cutoff to three years. If a player gets no votes in their 1st year, they are one and done.

I think the Edmonds/Rolen debate shows that the difference between a great player and a HOF player isn’t a well defined line but rather a hazy gray area that is constantly expanding and contracting depending on how and what stats are valued

Been an Astros fan my whole life, watching Berkman getting left off genuinely hurt ngl, he was a huge piece of our team for years and I wish he got more recognition.

will clark has always been my favorite baseball player of all time. thank you for covering him. 🙏

Yeah, you didn't mention Tony Oliva - Rookie of the year 1962, 3 time batting champion, gold glover, 8 time allstar, got 8 hits in a row in a one day double header, and was the first designated hitter to hit a home run as DH. Slightly shortened career with bad knees, played 14 years until 1976. One of the greatest pure hitters of all time.Took them an eternity until 2022 to vote him in via the Golden Era Committee. Greatfully, Tony still doing well and was able to speak at his induction in his 80s. BTW, he still supports my favorite local charity: Crescent Cove Children's Hospice and Respite Home. A fabulous human being. One of the greatest pure hitters of all time.... - John B.

To me this shit is very simple. Accountability. If you get to vote, you have to explain why you voted for someone, and why you didn't. Make people able to vote either for or against - if they want to abstain they better have good reason, and then their vote is not counted in the total for a player to be excluded. "I didn't know enough about his career" is fine, but then that shouldn't be used to decrease a players voting percentage, you shouldn't count. But it would make it so much better: "why did you vote for player A to become ineligible in his first year?" and suddenly a lot of voters would start doing that minimum 15mins of research. Otherwise you might as well take their voting power away

TL;DR - the HOF puts in players that no fan considered “famous” during their play time and at the same time keeps out the players that all fans consider famous. This is due to baseball writers voting, who have their own agenda other than how good or famous a player was. The fact that even players don’t vote on this until the very, very end is also counter-intuitive.

The issue of prestige/premium positions has always bothered me… For example, everyone knows about the 500 home run threshold, that is, if a player hits 500+ home runs in their career, they are a lock for the Hall of Fame. That’s great for a power hitting 1B, but how many 2B are going to hit that number? Almost none because that’s not the kind of player they are, that’s not what they do. 300 wins for a pitcher is an automatic ticket to Cooperstown -- good luck to any and all relievers out there. I know there’s a lot less of that antiquated thinking these days and the Hall of Fame criteria, writers/voters opinions, player eligibility, etc. is all slowly coming around and becoming more modernized in both their thoughts and actions, but there’s still so much more to be done, so many wrongs still yet to be righted and I think this video is a perfect illustration of that.

The most important stat is On Base Percentage. A distant second to it is Slugging Percentage. But both stats need to be considered in the context of the time they were made. OPS+ is great because it adds up both stats, then normalizes them based on the time and the park that the player played in. ERA+ is similar for pitchers...normalizing ERA for era and park effects. The problem is that OPS+ is weighted too heavily toward the slugging, rather than the OBP. So look at the OPS+ first, then look at the OBP and SP individually, to see which is the stronger. If you do this, you realize how great Edgar Martinez was. A .418 OBP is just extraordinary, regardless fo the era, and he also had a .500+ slugging. The man was a hit machine with a great eye. And his career batting average was 318!

On the 2017 Vet's Committee ballot, Alan Trammell and Jack Morris were elected... Whitaker was omitted from that ballot because "a 10 player ballot should not have 3 players from the same franchise", yet Thurman Munson, Don Mattingly and Tommy John from the Yankees were on the same ballot In 2019, Whitaker should have been a slam dunk Vet's Committee selection...EXCEPT Rod Carew and George Brett did NOT champion Whitaker like they did Morris and Trammell 2 Decembers earlier

As an Astros fan I've been saying for years that Berkman is a HOFer and he got snubbed on the first try.

I saw a post on Reddit recently that showed Chase Utley's stats next to Whitaker and Grich to argue Utley isn't HOF worthy, and I nearly burst a blood vessel at the thought of someone using one of the most famous HOF snubs as a reason to leave someone else out. HOF debates can get pretty toxic in general, but I always hate people using player comps to tear someone down instead of building the other guy up.

Todd Helton should be in the HOF

Glad you mentioned Whitaker, if they're gonna put Alan Trammel in, then Whitaker should be in as well, as he had a higher WAR. The best double play duo in the history of the game. But the real problem with the baseball hall of same is not having a player such as Albert Belle not in. I know he was a head case, but his injury took him out of the game like Puckett and Koufax. The guy averaged 40 hrs per 162 games.

I remember the hill catch in Houston, I was living in Texas at the time and followed both the Astros and Rangers a ton. I think the video hits it on the mark about him not having a position. He was an okay outfielder, an okay first baseman but not great at either. When looking at his former team for majority of career Houston their two legends Craig Biggio and Jeff Bagwell had well defined positions. Craig was a second baseman, and Jeff was their first baseman. They also didn’t move around spending their entire careers as Astros. Edgar was always a Mariner, arguably the best Mariner though there are a few others in discussion such as Ichiro. But point is when you think Seattle you think of Edgar Martinez, David Ortiz while didn’t start at Boston that’s where he broke out and so he is forever remembered as a Red Sox.

Yeah but Berkman's WAR is significantly lower than Edgar's (52 compared to 68). Appreciate the video though. God bless you man.

Thank you.. Someone finally gave Berkman some love.. He is and was so underrated.

I grew up a basketball fan and it is still my number one sport. The basketball Hall of Fame is notorious for pretty much just letting anyone in so for me as a basketball fan, the high ass standards for the MLB Hall of Fame always baffled me.

What about José Canseco? First 40/ 40 ,3 consecutive A.L championships , 2 world series titles, rookie of the year, Unanimous A.L M.VP...

Another great vid from one of my favorite baseball essay channels. Keep up the great work!

With guys like Berkman, they almost get devalued due to not staying with one team. He reminds me a lot of Nelson Cruz in the fact that they're power hitters with overall stellar bats, but became mercenaries at some point, and that's something I don't think the BBWAA writers like that much. It's almost like if you stay with one club, your resume can be somewhat lacking, but if you're gonna go play for a bunch of different teams, well then you better make it worth something or else you get looked at as "just another guy".

I grew up a Will Clark fan and it's criminal that he was a one and done even if he didn't ultimately get in. (Which I still think he deserves)

We don’t know who all the PED players were and weren’t.

I was lucky enough to have a girlfriend who worked for the Mariners when I was going to school in Seattle during the early-mid 90’s. I saw Edgar hit A LOT at the Kingdome & that whole Mariner team was pretty exiting in 94-96. It was a magical-time in that city, for many reasons.

I am a cardinals fan and I forgot Lance Berkman was on the cardinals until you said he won the world series in 2011

Excellent video kid!! Not the biggest fan of the game myself anymore, but Copperstown is a helluva place of legends! You really covered it from all angles, and totally hit the nail on the head at the end...writers' jobs are to put your level of diligence into their votes. Sad that you have to call them out on it, though props for doing it!!

Great video! Lance Berkman has been one of my favorite ball players ever since he came up. Such a fun guy to watch hit, and a genuinely good dude with a great personality. Will Clark was another guy I loved to watch play, and he is really cool to watch these days when he talks about the game. He is a hilarious guy. I learned to love Jim Edmonds later on, but I couldn't bring myself to like him for a while because he always seemed to be an Astro killer. Could be my memory is fooling me but I seem to remember him really playing out of his mind against them.

First video I've watched from you and I loved it brother. Definitely liked and subbed, keep it up!

This is my first video I've watched of you. You got me on the Ortiz-Not Ortiz segment. I thought we were gonna be besties, but you are trickster. Seriously though, well done video. I look forward to going backward (makes sense, going with it) and finding other gems. #Subbed

David Cone, is one of my big ones in terms of not getting in. He was always one of my favorite pitchers to watch, and one of the few pitchers who threw the ball and different pitch angles back then. He through all his pitches at like, three different angles, so even if you knew what was coming, you didn't know how it was coming. And he has every other stat needed. He was a winner, his ERA was always low, he has a Cy Young, he has a perfect game, he won multiple championships, he was good in both leagues. In an era where everybody was juiced and people about the fastball, the pitchers who had a low fastball, but knew how to paint the ball around the plate and were a little were quirky and still got outs, they were much scarier and possibly more annoying to play, and David Cone is right up there for me. I thought once he got the perfect game, he'd be an automatic, and not even 5% is mind-boggling to me.

The Thrill got his flowers in SF though. There's a reason #22 is retired in SF

If your popular on a winning team and played a lot of years your numbers are secondary if not even part of the decision

Thank you for covering Lou!

Snuck in the Futurama theme music, nice

I think John Olerud is right there with Clark as an egregious one and done first baseman

Ryan Sandberg and Alen Trammell look so much like Steve Garvey! lol...great video man. A lot of work was put into this

It's really crazy that Andrew Jones is on his way in and Edmonds didn't even get past the 1st ballot.

One who is rarely mentioned is Dennis Martinez who had regular season stats similar to those of Jack Morris though Jack's postseason performances were far superior (which might be the difference maker).

Where is Bernie Williams? As a lifelong Jays fan, he was one of those players I'd rather be on our team. He was clutch, and respected. If needlegaters can go on the ballot, why isn't Bernie there yet?

I was shocked berkman didn’t get more consideration ! As a lifelong cubs fan he terrorized us with both the stros and cards

I want you to know that I see and appreciate the extensive effort you put into this video. Great job!

It's hall of FAME. If people don't even know the guys name or remember him, or he didn't generate excitement, notoriety, set meaningful records, or have an epic, long lasting effect on the game, they're not Hall of Fame worthy. Hall of Fame is not a hall of really good stats (although that obvious is often correlated with Fame)

10:00 let's not also forget Dale Murphy as a legit snub

Great video. There is a good group of guys who were 2 and through as well. Orel Hershiser, Nomar, Juan Gonzales, Albert Belle just to name a few.

Incredible video. Thank you

HOF needs a few things: 1. New Voters (aka former MLB Players, Scouts, and Analysts) none of this writer bull 2. Rule Changes- • Voters should be able to vote for as many players as they want • Change the removal from the ballot to 10% after 3 years, or >2% after 1 year • Voters must give reasons as to why they do or do not vote for players • All Ballots must be public (can opt to be anonymous but all must be revealed with their reasons for the voting) • There needs to be a better way to look at HOF snubs than the veterans comitee, too many people unacounted for, maybe there could be a write in for all voters for one player who was previously on a ballot before the new rules. (Cannot vote for yourself if a player) • Make people be on the ballot for 15 years rather than 10 3. Relievers need to have a lower standard in order to get into the HOF 4. PEDs users should not be penalized for finding cracks in a flawed MLB, however cheating scandals should be looked at and adjusted 5. Catchers should also have their standards lowered due to the wear and tear it does to the body

Another one and done that did not deserve so was Carlos Delgado

I gave you a thumbs up because I was just happy to see Luis Sojo show up in this video, even if it was just a cut of him asking Cone why he doesn't have a dance named after him in a commercial. Oh, it was also a great video. But yeah, Sojo FTW! LOL

Loving the Jon Bois inspired graphics. More please!

It amazes me a guy like Edgar Martinez is in but Kenny Lofton and Marquis Grissom fell off after 1 year… Kenny Lofton is definitely a HoF and Marquis is borderline but deserves a look

Say it louder for the people in the back: It's unfair to leave out the PED players, but don't acknowledge the clean players.

I loved this break down. Well done. Just an FYI, during the Whitaker segment, you accidently left Garvey's image up for both Sandberg and Trammell. 🤪 And on the topic of 2Bs I'd love to hear your thoughts on Utley and his HOF chances/worthiness. Thanks.

Great video! Excellent work

Good video. I think what I’d like to see since how easy it is now, is voters to make a video saying why they’re voting for or not for people. It’d give us a voting pattern, show us who takes it seriously and would scare off the one vote voters. Plus they’re sports writers and fans, arguing about opinions is a majority of what fans do.

Dick Allen should be on here too

Love this video, I completely agree. One thing I do hate is voter only voting for one person. I think they need to rethink on some of these players that get missed. How to re-add them back to consideration especially since some yrs are stack of good player and other that aren't.

Thanks for adding Sweet Lou! I've been arguing for him for years. If Trammell is in, he has to be too

Let’s go nother vid from the goat

Three things: 1. Thank you for uploading. 2. What you will probably find in general is that most voters from older generations looked at things in terms of longevity when they voted (ergo: What career totals and accolade counts did a player accumulate). As well as memorable moments and highlights (ex: the Double, Ortiz’s 2013 ALCS). They typically didn’t look at peaks because until sabermetrics became more mainstream in the 2010’s or thereabouts, nobody could really agree on how to measure those. And of course, players whose best arguments were sabermetric, and who didn’t have counting stats that stood out like Lou Whitaker would have been overlooked by older voters who wouldn’t be familiar with that way of looking at things. Sabermetric stats aren’t everything, but that mindset wasn’t likely understood by Hall of Fame voters at that time. And 3. One Hall of Fame ballot that deserves a retrospective breakdown is 2013 because there were a handful of players who have made it in, Bonds and Clemens made it on the ballot for the first time, and there were so many candidates that Kenny Lofton went one and done, and nobody was elected.

Well said , on David Cone . We loved him in Toronto ill never forget 60 thousand cone heads packed into SkyDome . what a sight !

Hey man, love your stuff. Now, during your segment on Lou Whitaker, I could help but think about Marcus Semien. As both have second base men with legendary shortstops next to them. So my question is do you see Semien having the same faith as Whitaker after he retire?

Freddie Freeman is a future Hof

There definitely needs to be accountability for the writers. The ones who leave empty ballots or vote for one player just for the publicity and rage clicks should lose the privilege. This isn't to say, necessarily, that there are ALWAYS ten explicitly HoF-worthy candidates on the ballot each and every year, and writers who feel that PED's are a dealbreaker should remain free to choose not to vote for guys like Bonds and McGwire. But while writers shouldn't be *forced* to vote for candidates they don't want in the Hall, the ones who very obviously submit empty/one-vote ballots for the sake of outrage bait need to be shown the door. I think the 5% threshold should be re-examined. I think failing to reach that threshold maybe THREE years in a row would be a fair way to give the less obvious choices a fair chance before cleaning up the ballot without letting it get bloated from every single player getting ten automatic years of eligibility.

I never understood hall of fame voting I don’t understand how a player can go from getting 30% on the vote to getting in easily without playing a single game

A few things... 1. I'm a huge Astros fan. Berkman was absolutely deserving of the hall. He is an Astro. That is his identity. At least for us. 2. His stats were fantastic. But stats don't make you a hall of famer. The player you see with your eyes matters. 3. Comparing Lance Berkman to big papi, while flattering to Berkman, is not really a fair comparison. What papi did for the Sox is something of legend. Berkman had some big time postseason moments, but he didn't will his team to a ws victory after being down 3-0 to the Yankees. Moments like that gives him a huge edge amongst voters as it should.

1:35 This to me is the real problem with HOF voting.. the least common denominator syndrome. There's always going to be the "best" guy that's not in. According to whatever stat you're judging. It has to be someone that draws the line. Maybe not Edgar Martinez. So let's look at the top ten in OPS, since you used that stat with him. Here are the top ten players with 1800 games ranked by OPS not in the hall of fame (that aren't PED associated - as far as I could find, or active players): 1. Todd Helton .9531 (23rd all time) 2. Lance Berkman .9429 (31st) 3. Carlos Delgado .9293 (43rd) 4. Jim Edmonds .9030 (68th) 5. Bob Johnson .8987 (74th) 6. Matt Holliday .8889 (82nd) 7. Moises Alou .8850 (93rd) 8. Will Clark .8801 (102nd) 9. Bobby Abreu .8697 (125th) 10. Mark Texiera .8694 (127th) Note all time ranks include players with less than 1800 games. It feels more or less reasonable that the line should be somewhere in this bunch. Around Texiera you have Hofers like Bill Dickey, Jim BottomIy and Joe Medwick. You probably wouldn't want to dip any lower.. at least as far as this stat. Now I think Todd Helton got WAY too much of a boost from Coors and his stats are mainly a lie. Berkman should be in.. probably Delgado.. then it starts to get hazy until you get to Will Clark. More on him in a bit. But let's say you just went by the stats and said Todd Helton needs to be in.. he is THE best player not in the hall of fame. I mean just LOOK at his batting stats! So they vote him in.. then, well we just gotta elect Lance Berkman. He's THE absolute, obviously best player not in. And then Delgado.. then Edmonds.. then Bob Johnson.. well not Bob Johnson.. he's the outlier in the list. Anyway you end with a whole bunch of relative nobodies with sketchy stats in the hall after a while. You have to look at the whole career and kind of make a subjective judgement. Edgar Martinez was a DH. That's a negative. Not a very good fielder when he DID play. but.. he was an absolute monster of a hitter. If you forced Martinez to play the field his whole career he could have done it.. but would have had pretty bad fielding stats.. and probably still would get in.. so therefore he should be in regardless. But my point with all this is I don't think you can just conjure up a statistical standard to judge a player's worthiness on because you can do that with anyone.. and the standards constantly change usually to the downside. I think there's been WAY too many borderline players in the last 20-30 years getting in because of this. Harold Baines being example number one. NOBODY thought he was a hall of famer when he played.. nobody.. the topic just never came up. top ten MVP twice. Meh.. awful fielder.. probably worse than Edgar Martinez. If he doesn't play those last two or three years and have that suprisingly good 1999 (ahem) season 25 hr/103rbis/.312BA he's not in the hall today. Which reminds me another interesting thing about the list is every single one of those players except Bob Johnson played a good portion in the steroid era, and a few had rumors, but nothing I could DQ them for. PEDs really were a black mark on the game. Anyway my personal line is Will Clark. Either put him in and never elect anyone else that you can't argue was better.. or leave him out and do the same.

Just leave Garvey pic for all comparisons lol

Been talking for years about David Cone man, thank you

I see Berkman in the thumbnail and I have said MANY times that any metric that covers a players value has Berkman practically equal with Ortiz

I would like to hea about Carlos Delgado.

The fact that edgar didn't get in until his 10th year of eligibility is criminal. He was like the Koufax of DH's, and a literal legend with a street named after him in Seattle. The fact that his counting stats are as good as they are, when he didn't play regularly until age 27, is incredible.

I know that it's an old school stat, but hits are probably what kept Berkman out. The last year an inductee with fewer hits than Berkman played was 1959 (Larry Doby, a committee selection). I don't know how to filter for that, but I'd guess the last time a player with fewer than 2000 hits was inducted by the full BBWAA ballot is a very long time ago, probably more than 50 years ago.

Was digging the video from the start but had to restart it when I heard the beat at 2:05

A huge issue I see with voters is that they HATE voting in guys who didn't play at an all-star level through their mid 30s. And guys who retired when they were like 36/37

The problem is they let so many players in fromthe early years but now players with better numbers dont get the nod

Will the Thrill and Donnie Baseball were my favorite players as a kid. I think they both should be in the Hall, but 1989 Will was blessed with a better team. Don't say he had "a better year than any of Don Mattingly's", that's not fair to Don who was saddled with shitty pitching staffs until it was too late. Mattingly was by far the best player in baseball from 1984 through 1987. Each year was statistically better than Will's best. Mattingly also won 9 Gold Gloves to WIll's 1 and Mattingly lead the league in more categories more times than WIll. We don't need to shit on Donnie to make a case for WIll.

One thing that I notice is having a bad second half of your career without making any of the old thresholds you are not making it. Andruw Jones would've make it if he retired early.

I love David Cone and would love to see him in the HOF, but you have no idea whether or not he used PEDs. The same can be said for everyone else you mentioned.

In May of 2023, I visited The Hall Of Fame. As you walk through the displays there are kiosks where you can give your opinion (vote) on Baseball questions. One of the questions was "Should Pete Rose be allowed in The Hall Of Fame?". I voted yes, thinking I would be one of few to do so, but to my surprise at that point 83% of the votes had been cast to let Pete in. The BBWAA vote out of spite, and are driven by their prejudices. Big Papi was always nice to the writers, so even though he took perfmance enhancing drugs he's in. Pete bet on games as a manager, but never against his own team. So this is not a Black Sox situation.

Why was Lance Berkman blurred out in the OPS graph at the beginning of the video? Just curious. Love the vids as always!

I love your use of the Pokémon music throughout the video

Martinez shouldn't have been voted in. It would suck if Cooperstown went down the same road as the Hockey Hall of Fame. Once they make a mistake, they just lower the bar and let in a whole new batch of guys who shouldn't be there.

It’s just crazy Barry bonds still not in

The funny thing is that Palmeiro played on that Mississippi State team with Will Clark. And so did Bobby Thigpen and Jeff Brantley… Mississippi State made college baseball big.

That Cone/El Duque commercial was hilarious at the time and it's aged very well.

Ortiz did steroids

I know this might sound crazy but give the writers the stats for each player on the ballot but make them nameless (the hard part as they could just search the stats) and give them the same stats for players at the same position that made the HOF because sometimes the name is what really decides who gets elected (maybe the writers dont like a certain guy). They would need a way to differentiate the PED guys from the rest as they cheated to boost their odds and skills (I dont care if they probably wouldve made it without them, you reap what you sow)

Loved the video! What are your thoughts on Pedroia. I believe hes going to be on the vallot next year and i really dont want him to 1 and out

It was always interesting to hear the Tiger crowds back in the day in high leverage situations. If you didn't know what was going on it sounded like they were booing their own guy, but then, if you listened closely you'd hear it... Looooooouuuuuuuuuu.