The BIGGEST mistake I see people make in Warhammer 40,000! 

Glory to the first man to make a tournament Eldar player cry!!!

I think the important distinction between Guard and other armies is that we can field such an incredible mass of cheap and high OC troops, and still have room for the big punchy units

So what I'm taking from this is my conceptual 1000pt guard army using nothing but 870pts of Ogryns led by a lord solar isn't going to do well in official tournaments.

"40k is a game of standing on circles". Well put.

DRIVE THEM! I’m taking a sentinel spam list to a tournament this weekend. 9 armored, 2 scout.

I feel like out of all of the armies, Death Guard can get away with having little to no battleline more than the other armies (other than maybe knights) due to their built-in sticky objectives, so they can push forward from objectives rather than having to sit there

Speaking as a space marine player running a pure infantry army (with no battle line) I think OC is something to be aware of - but I don’t sweat infantry blocks of guard as I can clear them and score secondaries well - I can hold at least 2 objectives all game which keeps me in touch

A lot of troops are pretty bad. Either they're slow to get on objectives, too fragile to stay on objectives, too expensive to screen objectives, or too weak to clear objectives. Sometimes all of the above. A lot of troops need reworks for the reality of this edition to be used. Until then, there are just too many better alternatives.

Alright, so, personal subjective opinion: the changes to armor and AP values have left tanks feeling more durable, but left the infantry behind. The units that previously didn't rely on armor, generally didn't get any defensive buffs, when the units that do rely on armor benefited from the global reduction in AP. As a direct result, the likes of pox walkers and Hormagaunts and eldar troops just get cleared as easily as they did in 9th. In addition, it seems like every tank nowadays has an extra 3 anti-infantry guns attached, so people are getting anti-infantry with their anti-tank/elite firepower, so it's always present, and extra infantry isn't going to make your opponent make any difficult decisions. Like, your opponent will *always* have enough anti-infantry to deal with as much as 1/3 of your points being in infantry, and you have to go above and beyond that to get to the point where your opponent needs to actually play tactically around them, versus just knowing that they have enough incidental firepower to deal with them. As a result, i think people are moving towards the tougher units that take advantage of the AP changes, and they're starting to just leave infantry at home due to needing to sacrifice too much of the army to get your infantry mass over the threshold of being casually swatted away.

I wouldn't say I'm falling into the trap, rather I'd say I'm diving into the trap head first. Yeah i know OC is important, but all Scions is just cool.

This made me miss the Force Organization Chart. I think i'll make one for myself.

Whilst old school 1HQ/2Troops had some issues (My starting army as guard was 55 dudes under this system unless memory has failed me) and could be abused by some armies to drop some dirt cheap guys and then fill out with Elites etc, it did provide a structure to forces so you could get a sense of what an opponent would field just by knowing their faction. Now-a-days it seems like a free for all wild west.

It's definitely true that the structure of armies has fundamentally changed since force org is no longer a thing (and the only thing holding the meta back from pure clown world is the 3x limit) But the exclusion of "troops" in almost every army isn't a mistake but rather a symptom of the incentives of this edition 2oc intercessors equivalents are just plainly not worth it when their offensive profiles can't punch up against threats that will easily reduce their numbers to the point that they don't make any impact on objectives because they are dead/ at risk of battleshock Guard is a bit of an outlier because we have the best points/oc units in the game with the ability to increase that oc even further... and even then the vast majority of top performing lists only run 2-3 armored fists since the tanks are still more efficient at both killing and staying alive At the end of the day 40k is definitely about standing on circles... but you can't stand on a circle if you're dead

Haven't played 40k since 5th Edition, but having played a lot of Middle Earth, Star Wars Legion, and Bolt Action, this is very true across all games. A lot of players have plans for how to build a big ball of danger, or lots of small units to take advantage of the priority system, but the result is difficulty holding an objective because the units lack staying power. It really does help to think within the context of what percentage of your army should be focused on getting to objectives and bunkering down on them.

IMO, it’s because they made vehicles/monsters so tough. As a SM player as well as guard, SM battle line is too expensive.

Tbf to other factions, guard have all the OC, but in my local meta, I'm the only SM player who brings multiple intercessor squads, and it especially helps during turn 2-3.

This sounds like it's just a particular strength of Guard. Guard does OC and being dug in very well (Lethal Hits on Stationary). You also didn't count the several secondaries that require you to take an objective, which ALSO includes killing the opponent; otherwise you "take" an objective and then just get completely obliterated the next turn. btw: for the Tyranids player, 30 gargoyles is 210 points, so that's over 10% of the list in Battleline. Nids can also run fewer because we can regen them.

The last edition, with the guard codex that lasted for a few seconds it felt like. I went to a tournament with a list that was basicly just tanks. And what i feel like with skewed lists is that you sometimes get "free" wins. Went up against a guy with just two units that was decent at killing tanks. Wiped them off the board and then i can just roam free without a care in the world. Did the same this edition with an army of DKOK, all infantry. And faced a SM with alot of focus on killing elite units. He just could not kill the Dkoks fast enough to get any points.

"Maybe I've turned up with some super heavies."

I started playing in 6th edition and it’s difficult for me not to start with at least 2-3 solid troops units. I took a break for nearly all of 9th but came back when the new Guard codex came out. I played my first ever tournament (8 people/1000 points) and brought 70 infantry, 3 mortar squads, 2 chimeras a scout sentinel and 2 Leman Russ’s. Having never played 10th or a tournament in my life I placed 3rd. When you build a solid list, the game kinda plays itself.

This just isnt feasible for most armies. Your guard can have 80 oc2 bodies for 20% of your list cost extremely easily. In basically every other army this costs at oeaat double the points

It easy to say for a faction that main infantry cost 60 point for 10 men squad 😂

I've argued for years now that they should just make troops/battleline artificially cheap. Take where they are now and knock 10-15% off. I want to see armies with lots of lesser daemons, guardians, guardsmen, boyz, legionaries etc. I love the option play 'unbound' but it's a bit like chess without pawns, it doesn't feel right

I just love hoards of soldiers in every army I play so I haven’t really had that problem with board control.

This is why the humble missile launcher always is such a big part of my lists. Krak profile can handle vehicles, frag can handle chaff.

I ended up building an OC based Dark Angels list and the majority of it is battle line. I want to add a vic to it for support so I can move across the battle plain and catch objectives quickly by dropping troops.

I personally like to play my armies with high OC throughout and, if available, Sticky Objectives. I find it really nice to easily take a point and decide from there whether my models would better serve holding that objective against enemy OC or turning themselves into a screen.

I agree. Just an addendum: bodyblocking your opponent is also a valid way to use those cheap models. I've won many games as tyranids where I was outgunned heavily simply because my opponent had to pick one of two bad options: Either "waste" their firepower of 200-300pts units on 45-60pts chaff units to kinda keep the swarm at bay and then get destroyed by my fewer but untouched heavy hitters. Or "waste" the first 2-3 turns on winning the damage game between their and my damage dealers but then having too few turns to first shoot my many chaff units out of the way and AFTERWARDS move into the places they have to to score. Most fun one was beeing effectively tabled end of turn 3 and winning 89:36 in the end.

I play Custodes, we're all about throwing (oiled) bodies into objectives.

Based on the one 10e game I have played, I can't disagree. My guard aren't table ready yet, so I took my twenty year old Tau army and played it like guard. 1k points, 3 battlesuits, 2 tetra, 2 Devilfish w/ strike team and ethereal, Pathfinder team, 20 kroot squad, 2 8 beast kroot hound squads. I was up against Custodes. With my ethereals, I was swimming in command points. I drew all of the kill secondaries you speak of. Managed to score one secondary. Ultimately, I think i managed to kill five of his 15 (?) figures. He had these wild forge world shooty guys, no idea who, but they could hurt the devil fish. Scenario was Objective Control or something. Had to sit and do nothing to claim an objective and then you held it. No middle objective at 1k points. Yes, he chopped my Kroot minions to bits, but they slowed him whilst my numbers also prevented meaningful deep strike. He decided not to claim one of his home objectives, for some odd reason. My right flank fell, losing my objective, and I was unable to advance to the one opposite. I was able to take the one in his backfield that he never took. When I realized my shooting was largely meaningless. I started playing the OC game. Granted, I could hop back into my devilfish when he tried to charge me (again, my Ethereals left me piles of CP). The four choppy guys couldn't beat down the Devilfish fast enough. So one Ethereal led Strike Team and a Devilfish were able to hold his backfield objective. Meanwhile, a pathfinder unit, three Battlesuits, and the last Ethereal/Strike Team held my home objective. Either way, these grisly circle fights didn't begin in earnest until turn four. I, like a good guard, I mean, Tau commander, ruthlessly sacrificed the lives of my men for the greater good. Ultimately, he just couldn't kill me fast enough. Not to mention, he needed to have a squad stand there after the movement phase and do nothing but claim the objective to take it. Two thirds of his army survived. One Devilfish and my 3 Battlesuits made it to the end of turn five. 61-59 Tau. ALL because I had a more robust (ahh the irony) Tau battle line with more OC. Guard or not, it really does come down to the infantry.

It doesn’t help that a lot of armies battleline aren’t very internally balanced

The whole idea of objectives is so that armies like Guard are competitive against armies where individual models are more powerful. You are right that playing for the objectives is a good idea when you take an "all comers" list. You give up killing power for objectives, so go get the objectives!

painting old cadian infantry while hearing you, now i'm painting them with more intent

Aeldari in particular can play with little to no battle line and still have full objective control. Thousand sons are propped up by their battleline units, for character protection and cabal points if nothing else. Tho my world eaters love to spam jakhals, and one squad of zerkers for character delivery/protection

Guard and probably GSE are in a bit of a niche position with OC units. As they can regenerate their battleline. With the OC system (which I do prefer). I don't need to worry too much about battleline trumping me because I couldn't quite delete the unit on the objective, I just need more on there than my opponent Many OC units are not that durable (with probably the exception of necron and deathguard) and there's been plenty of times where I've just deleted a battleline unit to a point where I can just walk on the objective and with a bunch if 1oc and take it from my opponent.

I think I agree with the thrust of your argument: that players in 10th ed don't put a lot of stock into how much OC matters. Battleline units aren't the only way to get more OC. Take marines as an example, the ancient can give +1 OC to whatever unit it is attached to. Roboute can do the same with an aura. The Lion forcing battle shock tests on enemy units with his aura. OC is a sliding scale which can tip the balance in your favor, but players need to realize the ways to alter that. Battleshock might not be reliable however its part of the mechanic in the game and players should use it as part of their tool kit much like everything else in their army. I think the way you presented your critique is one dimensional and can't be applied consistently to other armies. Good thoughts all around though. Thank you for making this video.

As I’m building a Tyranid army, I’m really battling with how to balance my forces. That being said, my goal with both armies I field (nids, UM) is to have enough units that I can tailor who I deploy to the foe that is before me. Since I only play casual games against friends, I have that luxury. If it was for a tournament, I’m not rightly sure what I would do.

Hello. Long time Eldar player here (4th ed). I really enjoy your content... a big flaw with the thought process is the fact that guard are so cheaply costed...60 OC for guard is 160ish points, meanwhile 60 OC for most( not all ) other armies is 330+... plus pretty much no other army can spawn/respawn 40 OC for 2CP. If i could get 20 of my guardians for 120- 130, then yes, I'd take max battleline... i think alot of other armies are in a similar boat pertaining to battleline/ quality OC units.

I have a 120-150 inf list going on - the most I feel I could fit in while still having a minimum level of armour and artillery (and orders). I’m hoping for a similar result - lots of oc and dying well. I’ve faced a few friends who lack anti chaff which is nice. You can’t get through it all in time.

The problem i think marines have is that they need every unit to pull its weight but most marine infantry, battleline especially, just doesn't do that. A boltgun isn't all that useful anymore. 5 intercessors is 85 points of holding objectives, that's pretty much it. Basic guard infantry squad is 65 points and can also have a heavy weapon, allowing them to contribute more to the battle. A redemptor dreadnought is the same points cost as a leman russ demolisher. Marines don't have the weight of fire in 10th edition that they need to take the best guns and boost them as much as they can.

As a Tau player I love seeing heavy infantry lists as I absolutely evaporate them with crisis suits and breachers. Always lots of fun for me (not so fun for the other player though). Infantry just can't do much of anything for their points cost other than act as bullet sponges... which is ideal for an army like the Tau!

You won’t have much oc when my 10 man infernus squad led by captain overwatches, then my other squad of infernus marines overwatch in the same round.

"It's a game of standing on circles. Whover does it best wins" I gotta love that. I feel like I keep being shot off though, so maybe it's time to step up my "get in the circle" game.

I have been considering my Sisters of Battle army and I was thinking about fielding an army of 90 sisters. Using artillery and my units to eliminate my opponents OC units. Looking at the Dogmata, her ability add 1 to the OC characteristic of models in that unit. So Battle Sister Squad has OC of 30 for a squad of 10.

Many Battleline trooos are crap or too costly or both...thats why you dont see them...got swapped for cheap objective grabbers

I honestly hated the old force org charts in 8th and 9th edition. Because I didn't even know they were a thing until I had bought about £400 worth of chaos stuff and I couldn't even make a useable army with the units I had. I just bought models and units I thought looked cool. But the way it works in 10th edition lets you build the army you actually want to play. That's how I see it. As for objective control, I don't care about it, enemy can't control the objective if they have nothing to put on it. I'd rather go with units and models I want to use than worry about "Oh no, I don't have much objective control". I'll just kill whatever is on the objective or at least try to.

To be fair, I see more rounded lists in a narrative game/campaign. When you need to have a mostly constant list for a long time, you will most likely want it to be flexible. Especially if the missions are non-traditional. Tournament has multiple rounds but you are really playing more of a sprint and consequences aren't going to flow from one to another.

My very first codox was a Imperial Guard and I remember getting so excited finally learning about it and reading that I need 1 HQ and 2 Troops choices. Now I serve with the Death Guard :D

im new to 40k. and reviewing my list, my army will probably have this problem. but to be completely honest, i dont really care because i am simply following the rule of cool. if the models are cool then i will play them. my first ever game of 40k was a 3 way game where i borrowed someones tyranids, i really enjoyed playing tyranids and i think the aggressive nature of them fit my playstyle. when i went to start looking to get an army of my own i went for the models i thought looked good and ended up with sisters of battle instead of the stuff i knew that i enjoyed playing (im enjoying sisters a lot so dont worry) naturally, going for the cooler models i have now ended up with a castigator, an exorcist, a squad of paragon warsuits, morvenn vahl, celestine and some other stuff like zephyrim and my beloved palatine wielding what could very well be the emperors personal kitchen knife. i am left with only one unit considered as battleline. but as previously stated, i dont care. so fuck it we ball

As someone who likes the Imperial Guard, its interesting to hear the take from someone who plays them primarily. I confess that I'm not that good of a player as I've only been playing 40k proper for about a year, but here is my pushback from the Chaos Marines perspective. As Imperial Guard, you have the ability to have disposable troops and units. You can take them in triplicate without too much sacrifice of points. When it comes to Chaos Space Marines, I have found the points changes are much more punishing if I was to try and go for objective control. I know that Accursed Cultist and Dark Commune spam is the popular choice , but firstly I own none of those models and it's really expensive to build for that. Legionnaires are crap - especially compared to their Loyalist equivalents that have better "stand and defend' capabilities while Chaos is slower and has to push forward and has a harder time defensively (thanks for that 2CP AoC, GW). I usually try to build a bit of a balanced army, but I just get shot off the board by skew lists - and every loss as a Chaos player hurts more than it would for a Guard player. If I can't push my opponent off the objective, then I can't control it in the first place. Its absolutely incentivized to just take Chosen over Legionnnaires with only a 15 point difference and Chosen being just flat better. If Legionnaires could properly perform their given role I might consider taking them more. Cultists can work if you own enough of them, but they generally don't perform very well when it comes to surviving. You almost have to buy the new Accursed sets to actually have decent spread of board control and screening. That leaves me incentivized and pushed towards elite skew - and that isn't really something I want to play, but I feel there's little other choice for my faction with how 10th edition lists are built and how the meta is even at my local scene. At this point, I may as well just take as much of the biggest and baddest stuff that I can because that which isn't the biggest and baddest will inevitably be shot by that which is for the other player. 10th so far has mostly felt like a "who can table the other person faster" race - and that is a contest I cannot win as a player - particularly with how my dice tend to go.

As a Admech & T/sons player the difference for guard is that guard troops are ok in a visual utility way due to orders. There fast, good OC, ok strats, with LH can punch up as well as low cost. Pt for pt u compare to skitarii there hands down better. U only take vanguard to buff Breachers & take Dusty troops for cabal pts and meat shields for characters. If not for that no admech troops would leave the shelf.

It's a bit different with Eldar. The cheapest Battleline unit is 115pts for 10 T3, 5+ sv models. With Nids though, it's a different story!

It’s entirely due to the forge org going and vehicles becoming tougher and impossible to tie up in combat. I would advocate for 3 mandatory battleline per army as current battleline units are too weak in comparison. I think guard battleline is actually decent. Very few top lists at big events have a lot of battleline. Sometimes restrictions make for more interesting list building as it forces you into certain builds. Certain characters/detachments could make different units battleline for example (SM captain on bike as warlord = Outriders become battleline). This would incentivise cool themed or more balanced lists with more infantry. 12th really has been way too vehicle dominant for me!

I play marines and i went for an oops all armor list, as did several of the other marine players in my play group lol. it's pretty common everywhere rn i would fathom. And yeah, i can lose pretty badly against tough or hordey lists on the oc game, especially if i lay an egg with the dice. I still prefer it because it's more exciting being the person lifting things. I'm here for a good time lol.

I'm shocked the Votann player brought any warriors at all. They're not great for their cost.

Quick question, you make some really good points, but how does this apply to elite armies like custodes and grey knights, I play grey knights and have a strike squad for objectives, a terminator squad with a librarian, 5 man purifier squad with Crowe and 5 paladins with grand master voldus, for a 1000 point army while being able to swap in 5 more purifiers or a dreadknight

What I take from this is that I am doing the right thing with taking only tanks and artillery to my next tournament.

In addition to your comments I would also say it’s a 9th Ed hangover as the damage has gone down so to get more damage its putting tanks and elites

You make a good point at describing one of the great strength of the Guard: 60+OC Battleline troops, cheap and able to respawn. But no other army in 40K can come to this kind of OC management. And the only good reason not to take Regiments is if you hate painting 60 times the same grunt 😅. The most some armies can bring is 20-30 OC of ineffective and not so cheap troops. I’m not saying they’re useless. As a Grey Knight player, we have awesome Battleline Troops (Terminators and Strike Teams, with sticky Obj by the way). GK can score on Primaries but only if our adversary allows it. Against a Horde army, even getting out of my deployment zone can be tricky against a good player. I haven’t try a mass Termis / Strike Team yet, though. Only small units for mobility and coherency. Maybe I’ll try 3x10 Termis, 2x5 Strike.

Well, this makes me feel a bit better about my infantry-heavy army for my Dark Angels Successor chapter. Only vehicles I have in it are an ATV, 6 bikes and... once I finish building it... the dreadnought from the Leviathan box.

10 Tactical Marines with an Ancient is 32 OC. People shit on tactical marines but they’re fairly durable and they hold objectives just like Marines should.

The problem with focusing on OC for most armies is that they don't have it to begin with, 5 intercessors are 10 OC and 100pts but 10 guardsmen are 20 OC and around 60pts and you can bring them back for 2 CP if they all die. Having enough OC to effectively contest objectives is probably a fair balance.

@6:10 imagine poxwalkers being 2OC... that would be nice hahaha. The only 2OC infantry for death guard are the marines, every other infantry is 1OC

Are you saying that as a rough guide, for every battleline unit you take you should have no more than one non-battleline unit to give your army the best balance/chance

The main problem faced by the militarum for OC is units that have re-rolls against enemies on objectives. Mass blast weapons (barbgaunts and desolation squads) will have average 6-7 shots per model and they will handily convert against T3 and sv5+. Also battleshock relevancy for specifically guard whose main thing is OC and low leadership

May I say that I have enjoyed this video, and I really enjoy your contnet, I am a guard player now because of you. The only thing that I want to mention about your points with battleline is this, as a space marine player first before anything, our battleline kind of... suck. Yes, OC is good, but they die quickly. I dont have a strategem to bring these guys back for 2 CP. None of our detachment rules really really really synergize with them either.

Right! Why would I want to play models/units just b/c GW says I need to take them…just want to play the models I enjoy playing…who cares anyway unless you’re some tournament player…it’s a game…supposed to be fun…play whatever army composition makes you enjoy the game

I love my infantry. Every army is a horde if you try hard enough.

i just got into 40k about 3 months ago and im going space marines i find that it looks more aesthetically pleasing if you have more infantry with some and a few tanks or dreads but i see the reason why they would use more damage dealers it makes sense your enemy cant score if they have no units to score with

I wonder how much of this is to due with devaluing the entire game from a points perspective. It's just too expensive and time-consuming to have a solid core of battle line in the current edition. The points per dollar value of battle line is atrocious right now

This just in, local tournament player learns that other tournament players are the worst, of the worst for min maxing, meta chasing and copying each others lists almost unit for unit...

I am a believer in the 300 figure swarm

Guard absolutely has some of the best OC in the whole game, but I agree some of my tournament games would have absolutely gone the other way if the enemy just had some OC 2 models instead of OC 1 models.

I've heard this complaint on another channel. No chaff is the meta.

Thanks for the vid! Helpful information

And it will change again in a few years when Games Workshop, a 'Model Company' changes the rules again and forces everyone to buy more stuff.

I would love to know how much infantry you think should be brought in combined arms lists. It would really help as someone currently building up their backlog of models and trying to paint lots of Guardsman but still balancing it with other units.

Well, as a player of many weird armies, votann and gsc, like, the troops holding objectives need to be purposeful and effective. Hearthkyn suck but one split unit is fine, I prefer rushing in some beserkers and dropping down hearthguard to take objectives. In the gsc they are more expensive and crappier guardsmen… so… acolytes instead and some forward holding aberrants. If the point of the game is objectives then I need something to sit on them and stay there. It seems easy for a guard player WITH EVERYTHING artillery, tanks and men with chimeras or on foot to be like, “oh, everyone else is taking tough units why not just take battleline” when you also get two more armies worth of tanks and indirect fire artillery.

Battleline dies. You need to put something that can kill tanks. Battline do not do that. It just..dies.

mfw the guard player with more models out ocs people

As a Deathwatch player, I feel the opposite of this as the focus of my army is the Killteams. Da Red Gabbo (secret Santa) got me two tanks, which I ain't had new tanks since 5th Edition for my Russ El Classico. During my 9th games, I felt that I did not take enough advantage of having chingos of strong infantry and playing the objectives.

I play guard and other armies and honestly I find it just easier to fit guardsmen in than say fit in another unit of space marines or kabalites, they are cheaper and actually do something for the army outside of OC. Marines (not csm lethal on 5+s does wonders) basic battleline troops are honestly kinda bad, low offense, and not great defensively considering all the big weapons out there. Kabalites have the offensive use but are expensive enough for how fragile they can be that they are begging for transport. Guardsmen are just kind of nicely in that sweetspot, not that other armies don't have a reasonable "troop" to field but there are quite a few armies that don't gain enough from bringing another troop that they get passed on. I say this as some one who loves their infantry too, remember you are paying 130 for 20 guardsmen, marines are paying 90-120 for 5, and i'd put money on the guardsmen killing 5 marines before 5 marines kill 20 guardsmen.

I have found I generally get shit on in all the games I played so far in 10th edition. Regardless of what I bring. Always lose 1st turn, rolls are constant garbage. Even with orders, combo/wombo stratagems, and unit ability cohesion. I find my lists have to contain certain units to just have a chance to play the game. They are the focus points of my army and thus instantly focused down. Could just be my crap luck but I don’t know.

i always use tons of battlelines! also i think battleshock should make you only hit on 6s in range and melee.

This is a good perspective. I haven't played a lot of 10th, and what I have played has all been casual. (I play a lot of OPR Grimdark Future). But I have noticed that people tend to load their list with damage dealing options. I play Orks and tend to run a lot of infantry in transports. This allows me to get bodies up to objectives quickly. The games I've won is due to that early scoring. I don't particularly enjoy 10th however, because GW did the GW thing and has gutted my Bad Moonz army in favor of selling Beast Snagga kits. It really feels like my units are made of paper with no armor and little to no FnP.

The way I see, a lot of armies have now become like Tau in that the Core/Troops/Battleline completely suck so instead they max out on the good shit and play the damage game. Take this from a Tau player.

ya i was going to go for a balanced build and then try more skewed once i had a standard base of units.

Is it bad that I dont play or like playing meta style?

I played (and lost) against a Tau player who had basically no OC in his entire lineup. All Mechs with one character as Warlord. I lost to him by just five points because of his secondaries but I dominated the primary objective until the last two turns as just two Cadians matched his OC and I had a blob of them on each objective in No Man's Land. It was a great game

💯 I am guilty of this with guard... trying to field storm troopers / ogryn / veterans + characters and Valkyries. I have in the past had more success just putting more russes on the board to be honest.

You know what is hilarious? I thought about this a few hours ago trying to figure out how to explain balanced list biulding to my friend. My conclusion was you need a balance between: Objective control, secondary and infantry/ tank removal capability

in my local meta, I see this as well. OC models are rarly taken and if they are taken, it is because they are very cheap and do secondaries. and as someone with an Eldar army as well, I know realy well why. most OC units are realy, REALY bad at surviving. it doesn't matter if that big unit of terminators only have a combined OC 10, but they just don't die and kill everything near them. same with Eldar. why bother with guardians for obj holding, when they just die instantly when I can just use the avatar or wraithguard, who just survive almost anything? guard on the other side is in the special spot, where battleline units are actually worth taking. sure scions or kasrkin are more killy but not THAT much more. on the other side, they die realy fast. meanwhile that DKoK blob can take a stupid amount of firepower while actually GAINING more killyness. those battleline units can get dangerous fast vs many targets. DK especialy are in that wired spot, where you opp either wants to ignore them or dedicate most of their shooting into them to make sure they vanish from the field. if you ignore them, they push forward and just take main objectives. if you kill them, they just come back and do it again. if you try but fail to kill them, they turn into a scary unit full of special weapons, who easily can hit on 2+ while getting +1wound as well. ofc kasrkin can also come back but they are much more easy to remove. so by taking regular battleline, you get obj holders and decent dmg. by taking elite troops, you get more dmg but no staying power.

Just getting back to 40k (played last in 3. Edition. And lots of warmachine, gothic, mortheim and kill team inbetween). I was kinda annoyed to see all those elite/vehicle only armys. And not sure what faction to play. This man made me get 60 death korps, which I'm painting right now. 😂🙈

This does kind of make me laugh, because when I first got into 40k, 20 years ago, every game was basically Annihilate!, and if you didn't wipe the enemy, it was how many of their points were left, compared to yours. Oldcrons even had their silly phase out mechanic, where if they took enough specific casualties, even if they still had other forces, they all just up and left, and lost the match. It feels weird now that you could wipe our the enemy, practically, and still "lose" because of an arbitrary "last turn" battle royale collar exploded, because your superior force, who WOULD have gone on to win, didn't in the alloted time.😊 And I'm not crapping on that; it's a game, and that means rules, systems, and ways to win. I've played video games where stopping to fight every enemy was the wrong choice. They might be worth less XP, and if you took too long, their off-screen reinforcements would show up, and drown you in cheese. You needed to beat one guy, or claim one spot, and that was it, so I get it, but it can feel weird when we are playing a war game, where every facet of the unit is "how hard do they hit? How often? Can they take a hit? Get where they need to? Stay where they need to?", and yet actually killing everything can then have so little value, in the grand scheme of things. Still fun, though, and I'm glad that more modern 40k does offer alternative ways to win, or at least strategies to get there, when the factions are balanced well.

I’m a guard player and I end up getting tons of infantry to hold objectives???

Given how schizoid GW rules are, having a character and 2-4 battleline infantry to start is a good way of future proofing your army as well.

I'm pretty new, so I haven't played that much, but I've got the feeling that guard infantry usually is to slow to get to the objective in time and my opponent locks them down. Can I get infantry faster to the objective without transports? Or do I just have to cram as much OC as possible on the point?

The reason Marine Players can't take our battleline models is because we're 30% overcosted so they can't afford to be brought.

Im a returning player to 40k , had about 6 battles so far in 10th,mostly CP (last edition i played was 3rd) .... im really not good with GW's wording of rules at the mo. As far as i can see from the rules,its only models within the 6' radius of the objective that give there OC, im i right in that assumption or is it, only one model in the unit has to touch the 6' , then every models OC counts ?

I had a game of this to today salamanders vs death guard not played since 9th I was concerned due how tough they where last edition wished I would of left a Raposa on an oc