Actually they didn't stop selling them.They took the black coating off and changed the name to ranger and called it law enforcement ammo. They still sell it today although as time has gone on they have made some changes to it to improve it and keep up with newer technology. The hollow point is wider now they have made changes to the jacket etc etc but still retains slot from the original Black Talon.....but black talons are not illegal. They are just another hollow point bullet that had a name that freaked out liberals
I was under the assumption that congress did in fact ban them. I will have to do some more research. They dod however market them under another name. The ranger xst I believe.
NO IT IS NOT A RANGER T... it is identical to the PMC star fire Dont bother telling me im wrong. I know im 100% right. I have put the 2 cartridge side by side
I still have around 10,000 rounds of 9mm Black Talon and yes it is strictly for self defense for myself, and my wife (38 Special). I really stocked up because I had 2 sons and a daughter who are now of age to use them in the Browning Hi Powers that I also stocked at the time of their births. I bought Ruger10/22 for $89 each, and Mini 14 for $289 each in stainless. I am glad I did because my whole family now enjoys shooting and they all carry except the daughter who is still in the 1st grade. I reload on a Dillon 550B and I have a Unimat Lathe to make parts with. The government will never get my guns without a fight.
Yes I'll raised children. They are all NRA Lifetime members as well. I sleep very well, because unlike liberals, I have nothing and no one to fear. I don't threaten anyone, but I don't let anyone threaten me either. Be peaceful, and you can usually expect peace in return. Licensed gun carriers avoid altercations and are more aware than your usual yahoo yippee skippy hippy pothead out their in among the English.
Thank you so much for not naming any mass murders. I truly believe that if we quit giving them 15min of fame mass shooting will dwindle to little or none
Agreed. So tired of the media portraying every murderer or school shooter as some "tortured poor soul". It's a chemical imbalance in the brain, not a Shakespeare play.
I, too, am a huge fan of the "some asshole" rule. You know, instead of saying "Jack DeKiller committed that shooting" saying "Some asshole committed that shooting." Denies them the notoriety they crave.
I won't lie being young living in Baltimore these bullets were legends. when biggie smalls rapped about these bullets that's how the bad name circulated and became "cop killers"
Yep. He mentioned Black Talons in his song Warning: "Bet you Biggie won't slip/I got the Calico with the Black Talons loaded in the clip/So I can rip through the ligaments/Put their bodies in the bad predicament/Where all the foul people went." I still have 3 boxes of .45 and 3 boxes of 9mm left from '92
Thanks for making this video, Tom. All I've ever heard was hype and rumors about this stuff. It's nice to hear some research into the story. A buddy of mine has a small stockpile of this stuff for collection purposes, too.
Thank you, for the intelligent analysis and clarification. I bought these around 20 years ago, and still keep them loaded in my 9mm XD for home defense.
Wow, thanks for the informative review. My dad has always carried Black Talons in his .357, and has always sworn by them. I remember when he first introduced me to the revolver, he told me several times all about the mysterious deadly properties of the Black Talon, and it became a source of curiosity and wonder to me at the age when I was first discovering my love of guns. I now carry PDX-1s, and have shot a few hogs with them. Nasty stuff, but the stigma is certainly overblown.
sweet, been waiting patiently for this and the doubletap vid. I really enjoy the vids you put out where your passing knowledge on the the viewer, by far my favorite type of vids.
I still remember buying a used Jericho 941 a few years ago from a friend. It included a full magazine of 9mm black tallons. I took the gun to show my father which is a 60 years old Vietnam vet. He liked the gun but literally freaked out when he seen the magazine of the black tallons. He told me they were illegal cop killer ammo and told me to get rid of it. Me being me instead went home and researched it. I then had to explain this story to him.
@nehctik1986 I'll clarify that in a second video. The bottom line is we have to be aware that the D.A will deem them as Cop Killers... (even though they are not) I like to tell my audience to be on the safe side...No need for extra legal stuff...
Very informative. My .45 ACP carry load is a Ranger T-series and my .40 load is a Winchester Bonded JHP (white, birth-control looking box; quite surprised I didn't find an NSN on it). I've always been a fan of the Winchester Ranger line of ammo. I think your assessment is spot on.
I still have my Black Talons, I purchased them because of demo that was given to my department back in the day. The black talon is a hollow-point round and has the desired characteristics of a HP round as with all HP rounds it doesn't deflect as when it first hits it flowers which in turn causes a large vacuum and increased lethality, what was unique with the black talon was the "talon" which gave these cutting points on the round that aloud an even larger vacuum and some added penetration.
My grandfather is a retired highway patrolman and he has some of this ammo. I didn't know what it was at the time, but he told me exactly what you just said as far as the story behind the ammo was. Pretty funny that someone actually believed this was designed for a specific race.
@FaganRoberts Yes, you are correct. I simply always have my videos focused on DA's in the worst case scenario . Thnak you for your input. I appreciate it. Tom
Nothing illegal about selling/buying them except where prohibited by local laws. Winchester dropped them from production due to bad PR and political pressure.
The talons on the black talon were sharper than anything they've put out since then. HOWEVER, in a study, they found that the black talon was actually weaker than anything of it's time. It has way less energy than modern ammo, and the only reason you should buy it is if you got somebody who really wants it and you can get it online and then turn around and rip them off for more money lol
I have tried pxd1 and the ranger t series for my p220 .45acp. Other ammo that is ballistic wise very comparable are both the Federal HST as well as the Speer Gold Dot, both of which are also a top three choice among Law Enforcement. The double tap is also very great stuff I just ordered some DT Hunter 200 grain .357 magnum hard cast. Definitely wouldn't want to be on the other end of that stuff for sure, or any bullet for that matter. Different rounds will also feed better in different Guns so i'm a firm believer particularly with new handguns that it's good to try out a wide variety of different ammo both target and defense. This is a great video you really explain things very well.
Great review - I had also heard the story about the surgeon who cut his surgical glove on one of the slugs as he was removing it from one of the victims. Good review. Shot all mine up years ago when they were outlawed and yes - they were impressive on water jugs! I haven't tried the Winchesters yet - I carry Speer Gold Dot . . . only because our local PD carries them and would work best for me in the event I had to use it (concealed carry holder) and needed the legal ammo to defend on civil.
An informative and well presented video. My story about the Black Talon starts around 1991/92 at the Long Beach CA Police Range. I walked into the store there and a bunch of guys was standing around looking a some photographs of lumps of what looked like amber jello, later I learned it was ballistic gel. Anyway the fellow who was making a presentation was pointing out the different types of penetration and damage that different rounds had made. I can only say that the damage made by the Black Talons a compared to other rounds was impressive. At the time I was carrying a very small .380 and the Black Talon .380 showed more damage to the ballistic gel then any of the then current ammo. I of course immediately purchased a half dozen boxes. And carried them for many years never firing a single round. I didn't practice with them as they were pricey in comparison to anything else. I still have those 6 boxes and since I see that one box is missing a few I guess I must have shot a few but have no recollection of the result. Subsequently I bought boxes of them in other calibers and likewise never shot any of them. I quit carrying them some few years later a I had moved on from the .380. I guess I have about 25 boxes of them packed away in an ammo box and unless there is a zombie apocalypse I'll end up bequeathing them to someone in my will.
Ranger T-Series are the same cartridge without the black coating. It’s tremendous ammo when it expands. Meanest rounds I’ve ever seen that still penetrate 12-18”. HST’s, Gold Dots & Bonded Golden Sabors will expand more reliably but none of them are as mean as Winchester’s Ranger T’s/Black Talons.
Tom you read my mind. I was looking around to find out about this round and could not find info,, you hit right on the head I learned something about was I was courious about and your video just answer all my questions,, thanks again for a great video god bless..
THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!!!! Unfortunately what WE know is true only falls on deaf ears. I too carried a 10mm Delta Force Elite while I was in uniform on the streets of Dallas, loaded with Black Talons. Look at the G2 RIP ammo we have now - we're not hearing about surgeons complaining about cutting their delicate little fingers.....
still own and still loaded in my carry gun,dependable and deadly as they are SUPPOSED to be. no matter the reputation,they will stop the threat if you can hit your intended.
The talons on the black talon were sharper than on the brass talon because old black talon had (sharp) short claws. The brass talon had long (fingers) claws. @8:48 pause. look careful and you can tell difference between short claws on black bullet and long claws on brass bullet. Good thing, I got them a lot many years ago.
I carried the .357 Black Talon when they first hit the market, and for quite a while, thereafter. We never called them "cop killer", we called them "a Surgeons Nightmare". And, they did no better than any other round, through a windshield. Replaced, now by Hydra Shock. It was said ( back in the day ), that " a surgeon would have a Nightmare if you got shot right outside the OR".
Talon refers to the shape of the bullet when it expands. It has little "talons" on the jacket that are sharp. You will pick your fingers if you pick them up off the ground to quickly or with goo much grip. They do look cool for sure when fired. They perform very well but not as well as some newer expanding jacketed hollow points. They're called ranger t's now I think and the coating is clear.
You're a smart guy for buying Black Talons when they were available. I LOVE Winchester Ranger, and now feel after watching your ammo recommendation video will try Winchester PDX1.
My EDC is a Sig Sauer P320 compact running PDX-1 9mm +p ammunition. I had no idea about black talon, but I know a lot about ranger t ammo and it’s hard to find. PDX is available at just about every sporting goods store in Reno, and I’m more than happy with it
You forgot to say that it was printed on the boxes that they would not penetrate certain bulletproof vests. It is nice to know they came up with a new and improved version. I got them when they first came out And its been my house load for over 23 years.
I'd love even an empty box for history sake .iconic..I'm starting to realize I'm getting older..I remember when finding a carry gun that was small meant a snubby and that's it
Very nice & informative video! Good accurate research! I still have 2 boxes of .45ACP & 2 boxes of .44Mag, 4 boxes of .357Mag & 4 boxes of .9mm, they have been kept in nice dry gun safe, I have not fired any since the ban, why? syupid thought that they would become collector's items. Now I have my Kimber & other .45acp pistol loaded up, I fired 1 box just to make sure, NO problems all fired as designed, my 1894 rifle is loaded with the .44mag. Good Job!!
LOL thanks Tom !!!! you brought back some memories there guy ! I remember surgeons being interviewed stating they were soooo dangerous to them during surgery because of the sharp edges....oooooh they had to deal with the scum in their beds and we cops had to deal with them while they were up and slinging lead!!!
When I worked on a Pistol Range we were told to carry. I loaded my mag with a combo of rounds. Black Talon, Hydrashock, and ball, in that order until the mag was full. The rationale for that was I was told that Black Talon and Hydrashok would not go through heavy jackets/clothing. Never had the opportunity to test out that story though :=}
Back in the 1990s I tested and compared expansion of the Black Talons in .45 ACP (230 gr) and .357 Magnum (180 gr), vs the first replacement from Winchester, then called the SXT (the names Ranger and PDX came later). The Black Talons and SXT performed similarly but were not identical. The Black Talons had sharp claws. The SXT had rounded "fingernail" type tips. There were no significant differences between the black Lubalox coating and more conventional copper finish. Over time the Lubalox coating appearance remains the same while copper jackets quickly lose there lustre and show oxidizing. The Black Talons always came in nickel plated cases with red marks around the base, reportedly to protect the primers and cases against moisture and corrosion. Keep in mind this was an era when leather was still the primary material for holsters and pouches for magazines, speed loaders, Bianchi strips and loose ammo. SXT ammo, at first, came in nickeled brass cases, minus the red marks, so it's uncertain whether the primers were sealed. SXT was less expensive than Black Talons, although I purchased law enforcement surplus Black Talons at gun shows pretty cheaply because it was no longer carried by police. I still have one 20 round box of .357 Magnum 180 gr Black Talon and usually carry it in my Ruger SP-101. Recoil is stout but manageable. My hot handloads in 125 gr JHP kick harder and bark louder, but those were loaded for a S&W Model 586 with 6" Mag-na-ported barrel. A few folks mentioned the PMC Starfire. The 1990s Starfire were not identical to the Black Talons. The lead itself was segmented like a 5 point star, with a conventional copper jacket that just barely covered the forward edge of the exposed star segmented lead, and the jacket has tiny nicks in the leading edge to assist with expansion. I'm looking at one right now from my remaining stash. These also expanded well in test media, but did not have the distinctive claws of the Black Talons or "fingernails" of the SXT. I used a lot of Starfires in the 1990s because they were the least expensive jacketed hollow points we could buy in a reputable brand. I still carry those in .38 Special in my S&W Model 49 and 642 snubbies because they hit point of aim and group tighter than Golden Saber or Gold Dot for me. Unfortunately PMC discontinued the Starfire. I'm down to only 10 rounds of Starfire, which I keep in both my Model 49 and 642. As backups I keep Gold Dots in Bianchi strips. My only reservation about the older Golden Saber is the lack of a cannelure to ensure a solid roll crimp to prevent bullet creep under recoil. And the 125 gr Golden Sabers are quite long due to the deep cavity. I'd worry about bullet creep locking up the shorter cylinder in my older Model 49 Bodyguard. However I tested these in my Model 642 which has a longer cylinder comparable to a .357 Magnum cylinder. After four shots I examined the fifth and last round and saw no bullet creep, so either Remington loaded those correctly back in the 1990s, or I just got lucky. Regarding the publicity that led to Winchester withdrawing the Black Talon, there was some talk about the name seeming racist. I was a journalist back then and paid close attention to the story. But the main incident that led to Winchester withdrawing the Black Talon was mentioned in the video: the 1993 mass murder on the Long Island commuter train. You can find the details about the murderer via a Wikipedia link from the article about the Black Talon ammunition. In the public eye, that incident clinched the perceived racial connection to the name of the ammunition, however incorrect or ridiculous that may seem now in retrospect. Regarding the claims by surgeons that the Black Talon claws could injure medical personnel, that's not far fetched. In the military I was an operating room tech and assisted surgeons. They often used gloved fingers to carefully probe incisions or injuries, as well as to separate tissue layers without unnecessary cutting. So, yeah, it's a valid concern. However a few current hollow points still expand with sharp petals - notably the Norma MHP - and I haven't heard of any comparable criticisms.
They are still legal the Winchester "T" series is the black talon round without the black coating. Winchester volunteered to take it off the shelf but you can still buy it any day of the week.
That is quite the collection you have! Most I have seen in one spot, good info in the video, and I load all my firearms with PDX1, if it's good for the FBI, it's good for me! Your a great guy keep on educating!
You can also buy Remington Golden Saber, which is the round developed by the same engineer that made Black Talons - after he left Winchester and joined Remington when they discontinued the Black Talon.
Federal Premium makes a round called HST that is sold to LE only that peels back like a bananna with really sharp edges also. One of the major advantages to a hollow point compared to FMJ is when it opens up, it exerts more inital energy "knock down power" and doesn't penetrate as deep as a FMJ to reduce possibilities of collateral damage I.E bullet going through the target and hitting another person.
Winchester uses Lubalox still, but they have used it on very few bullets. The caliber they use it most on in 22LR. I know they use it on 1 30-30, 1 308win, 1 9mm. They may have more but it really is not widely used. If it works as a coating to protect your barrel I would prefer it on all bullets I use.
The hollow point bullet came out in 1963. It was made by Super Vel and was very popular with law enforcement. Most cops in the US were using hollow points in the 70s.
These are the only hollow points I'd load up since they're 230 Grain +P. I like standard lead hollow points made of hard cast lead. It's a simple projectile and it'll mushroom out into a giant wadcutter. If it doesn't expand, you get a well penetrating round because it's hard cast.
Great vid Tom! Your Black Talons will have very good collectibility in the future, which might go for a really good price. Also, your stash will make good zombie Apocalypse ammo to. LOL.
Yes, I am too influenced by the same voodoo. I heard of these way back when, and heard of the damage they do. Now as an adult, I have tested the 9mm rangerT +p124s, and they dont fail to impress. Its great that you can take the black off a bullet and still be able to sell it under a different name. I feel confident knowing they are in my wifes ccw pistol.
Yes I still have some and i'm retired law enforcement and i'm going to keep on carrying them because we carried them on the job so that we didn't injure innocent by standers. They are a great round when used against the bad guys, end of story!!!
I had the understanding that the Winchester SXT was the “Same Damn Thing” with a clear coating. And the Ranger Series offered the same bullet design too. Now I’ll have to double check.
The standard rounds mushroom upon impact, often push aside and past internal organs....where the Talons and PDX rounds unfold like a flower, some very sharp pedals that snag organs and rip and tear as they pass through the body causing extreme damage internally. Loved the video brother. Well done. ~Wolf
Lol.SAS folks believe everything they see and or hear without research and search for the truths.. Reasons why the world in the shape its in now on many important issues
Okay although you are correct on a lot of things the black talons were dangerous. The reason why is people would file down the load to a point and it in fact would penetrate level 3A armor. Just so you know.
**NOTE If you are wanting the "Talon" effect from the Winchester Ranger, you need the T-Series. The only way to tell is the product code ie. RA40T is code for 180 gr 40 cal. RA40TA is 165 gr 40 cal. RA380T, RA9T, RA45T. See your getting it. All other Rangers are bonded to the petals so you don't get sharp petals (Talons). Also the box may say Law Enforcement ammunition but anyone can own it. Some dealers only sell it to LE members but some sell to regular costumers too. Got mine at SGammo.com
I think the ammo sheriff Brody made in the movie Jaws is definitely a manstoper. 38 special FBI load with poison in the cavity covered in wax . Its epic!!
