The Boeotian Greek Dialect Unlocks Attic Pronunciation 🇬🇷 

@@nicka.papanikolaou9475 When did Luke say anything that is contradicted by what you found asking ChatGPT, which is basically the same information you'd get on Wikipedia?

Αφού με έσπειρε μια μοίρα αυτοκρατορισσα Μήτρα με γέννησε αρχαία Μακεδόνισσα

Γιατί είτε κ ο ι ν ε ι η κοινή Μόνο η προφορά αλλάζει ΕΛΛΑΔΑ ΜΟΥ ΑΘΑΝΑΤΗ καμία δεν σου μοιάζει

@Philoglossos: the facts are presented and hyperfocused and analysed, but in what direction?: that of separation not unity. This is historical revisionism. We know who we are.

@@MEDUSA-mg3vh There's no historical revisionism here, no. The chauvinists always lie about this - it's not the issue of separation or unity that you care about, it's *special* unity. You refuse to accept that Greek is unified in the same way that all languages are unified with previous forms of the same language - it has to be extra super duper special because your entire identity is built around pride in the accomplishments of your long dead ancestors. So you deny the unity of, say, Italian and Latin, while exaggerating the unity of Modern Greek and Ancient Greek.

Ευχαριστώ, φίλε! I am doing my best to learn Modern Greek on my own. You are describing uggi about the Italian influence; I speak Italian every day, so that has an effect. I’ll try to improve.

Ωραία! Ευχαριστώ, φίλε

Ευχαριστώ James! You're very kind to say so. Wow, so you're using an Ancient Greek pronunciation?? Μπράβο!!! That takes great courage. I would love to hear what your Ancient Greek sounds like. If you would like to make a recording of your Ancient Greek, please send a link to scorpiomartianus @ gmail. I would be proud to show others.

For as long as modern Greek pronunciation has existed, which amounts to 350 years at least, it is used for ancient texts of classical Greek and especially Koine, including the language of the Gospels. It is very difficult to establish the reconstructed pronunciation in Greece because there is a tradition already. No Greek will be moved by sounds long unfamiliar to their ear. A better approach might be to reconstruct other elements like the long vowels and the rhythm or the pitch accent, which do not require reconstructed phonetics. But either this approach or the other will eventually get political, like what had happened with the imposed Katharevousa "Archaizousa" into the Modern Greek state ideals. It had been a virtuous attempt of Greek elites to legitimize the existence of the Modern Greek nation by appealing to the influential classicists of the European powers, but it became an obsession and effectively severed the connection between classical antiquity and the modern nation, by ignoring the deep medieval past, because "the Byzantines" were despised by the Europeans (and the Greek elites in a sense). There is no substantial knowledge of the language evolution during the Late Antiquity and the Middle Ages, to make the connection complete and scientifically more accurate. So a reconstruction of the classical pronunciation will likely resemble the past of a forced reconstruction (in effect, reset the identity) of the nation, and that may bring up tensions even to this day.

Just to clarify my own position, I am fond of the ancient pronunciation reconstruction and I really enjoy the hard work of youtubers like Luke. I had my lessons of ancient Greek in school and I like to refresh from time to time, and have money well spent on, but I cannot afford the time and dedication. Encouraging the public sector of the Greek state as a culture promotion is another issue, for which I prefer to see my native language past studied in all its extent, glory and decline (if these words make sense).

Forgive my ignorance but why do western academics believe they have the correct pronunciation over the traditional Greek speaking world. I’m seeing a lot of cultural appropriation of the Hellenic identity in general. The degradation of Greek academic work really irritates me. It’s bordering on smugness at times

Ευχαριστώ!

Ωραία!

Amazingly it’s much more common than I had previously thought, still extant in every major Anglophone population, just not as dominant as it was 50 years ago.

@@polyMATHY_Luke I'm glad to hear that. I wish it would come back strong rather than decline, but I'll kick against the pricks until I die :) προσδοκῶ καὶ τὴν vidionem περί τοῦ βιβίου τοῦ Ζαχαρίου. ἀκοὴ οὑ ἦλθε πρός με ἐὼς σἠμερον, ἀλλὰ νῦν ποίμην καλησάμενον Ῥευχλινιὴν ἐκφωνὴν "_the_ historical pronuniation" ἠκούσα κατ' ὥραν α'. εὐχαριστῶ σοι vidione σοῦ.

Thanks, man!

Yes, very helpful in improving my MG!

That’s very interesting and useful information! Thank you. What do Austrian’s other vowels do, once that monophthong occurs? I would expect long e to raise to i, “gehen” > “gihen”. Assuming it’s like what Boeotian did.

@@polyMATHY_Luke That's not happening since unlike in Boeotian the phonemes still stay distinct from all others in every variety I know - but if you're interested I could send you a rather detailed analysis of (Standard) Austrian German that uses the IPA

Thanks for the comment, Constantine. Yes, I don’t enjoy challenging Greeks on what they feel are fundamental facts. I’m just hoping to bring us all to a mutual understanding of one another’s perspective. In that, I also hope to show my non-Greek audience that Modern Greek has a beautiful phonology and is not some “decadent” form of Ancient Greek; on the contrary, Modern Greek is exceedingly beautiful and has a lot to teach all of us.

Well not all historical authors were aware of pronunciation shifts over time, and we don’t know if they’d all agree to the same principles. In English literature for example, Chaucer asks his reader not to mismeter him due to fault of tongue, and later English critics lamented that his poetry didn’t work as well over time. Someone used to hearing Shakespeare in Received Pronunciation might find anything else strange, but a reconstructed pronunciation has echoes of modern Irish and Scottish pronunciation and makes a lot of the rhymes, meter and puns work better, so coming in with no expectations a good reconstruction can be amazing. I find the more you look at different related dialects and the history of languages itself, the more alive good reconstructions come to be. Now there are of course a lot of bad older reconstructions from people who haven’t studied modern dialects and their relation to historical pronunciation. But they’re getting better as people find how the features sound in living languages and come up with more natural reconstructions. Of course every text even in its own day is read by readers with all kinds of accents, so everyone should read however they feel comfortable. But there’s definitely reasons why some want to pursue historical reconstructions, at least as close as we can get.

I use the same pronunciation for anything from Classical Attic to Modern - unless I'm discussing how Greek was actually pronounced or pronouncing another dialect. Also, if I'm discussing the boundaries of a survey in Lake Lure, and someone who uses Classical pronunciation thinks I was in the nearby mountains, I pronounce the rough breathing in "ο ορος", which I normally don't.

I suppose the answer is that you *should* not but you *can* if the ancient pronunciation is of interest to you.

I feel that you're presenting a false dichotomy here. No one is saying to pick one over the other. Modern Brits use the modern British, often very southern, or even RP, pronunciation, when they recite Shakespeare. But that's not a prohibition against linguists from realizing that many lines do not rhyme when spoken in Modern English, and must be pronounced in Elizabethan English in order for them to get the actual flavour of what it sounded like at the time. Is it purely an academic exercise, perhaps even an aesthetic one? Absolutely. And there is nothing wrong with it.

It's not a correction, in the Old Athenian dialect υ was pronounced as French u, /y/ in IPA. Others like you said say υ as /u/ and η as /e/, this happened sporadically in many if not all dialects. Also no one said to stop pronouncing in our contemporary way, especially when using the words as loans in our contemporary variety. But when studying Ancient Greek is incredibly more easier and natural to do it while understanding the phonology, some examples are when εε becomes ει , or οο becomes ου, or when j/ι plays a role, it helps with grammar a lot. As years passed there is a lot of words that can't be distinguished in speech at all, it doesn't make sense when trying to recite something and expecting others to understand unless it's a famous play or people have the writing. Double consonants and υ/οι were distinguished until the Late Medieval period in the standard language, that shows that as the years pass it has become more and more difficult to understand the meaning of spoken Ancient Greek (Classical or Koine), this is evident in churches for example. So it could be helpful to study the close approximation of the Ancient pronunciation, it also helps with learning the modern dialects.

Ευχαριστώ, φίλε, έχω ακόμα μια προφορά «ιταλική», αλλά ελπίζω να τη βελτιώνω στο μέλλον.

@@polyMATHY_Luke φαίνεται ξεκάθαρα, ότι έχεις μεγάλο κίνητρο να βελτιώνεσαι και να μαθαίνεις. Πολύ σύντομα θα σε νομίζουν όλοι Έλληνα 🇬🇷☺️👏🏼

Wow really? He didn’t believe that lunate sigma was used? Haha it’s everywhere in inscriptions! Yes, it’s quite a challenge, since Greeks have a combination of traits that are, I think, more pronounced than in other cultures I interact with: they have a very strong sense of nationalism, and profound distrust of outsiders. This doesn’t go for every Greek; these are just my observations: such Greeks will interpret a contradiction to their worldview, especially when that comes from a non-Greek, as an attempt to diminish their sense of self. In realty, this aspect of the ego is something every human has, it just happens to reveal itself - according to my anecdotal observations - frequently in these types of discussions with some Greeks, and it can feel like trying to convince a flat-earther the planet is round.

And it becomes even weirder, since Church inscriptions use the lunate sigma, which is definitely a tradition from Late Antiquity and the Early Middle Ages.

@@polyMATHY_Luke I once left a Greek fuming during a debate on whether Ancient Greek was read the same way as today, when I told him that Ancient Greeks were not stupid enough to develop an orthography in which i-sound is written in 78 different ways like it is today.

@@ΧΑΡΗΣΚΟΥΡΗΣ-ψ3νAnd Cyrillic still uses it.

@@polyMATHY_LukeHi Luke. Not all of us Greeks are like that. Many of us are actually educated people & educated on the topic of our actual History. While I consider you a Master of Linguistics, especially for these Ancient Languages & Dialects, I do always take some things you say with a grain of salt. The reason being is that we are all humans & are prone to mistakes, isn’t that right? For example, I have caught many mistakes you have made on your Greek Videos before from a purely Historical [Lol, your Favorite word] Point of View. Like when you accidentally showed the wrong Symbol representing the Larnax found by Manolis Andronikos that showed the 16 Rayed PanHellenic Vergina Sun Sunburst that has come to be known as the symbol of the Ancient Macedonians today. I believe you showed some sort of Apollo Carving that was also from Antiquity in that video. It was a pretty major mistake. It would be Equivalent of mixing up the Pantheon with the Parthenon. I say this because this is the Symbol of the Great Macedonians, a World Famous & Iconic Symbol, how could you miss that? It made me wonder, outside of the Linguistics field, how much actual History do you study about the Ancient Greeks themselves? Are you more of a Roman Bug-A-Boo fan when it comes to History? Genuinely Curious about that. Btw, I used to really come at you in an abrupt kind of way but I have promised someone from your channel to behave & to take a softer approach. Hopefully this will get some of my actual more meaningful questions answered by you. I would also like to ask you another question. Do you think other Greeks attack you or say absurdities (unacceptable btw) because they feel as though you are trying to disassociate them from what they feel is their Ancestors History? One of the most strongest Link after-all is the Language. Do you think that if in every video you make it a point to state that: THE MODERN GREEK LANGUAGE IS THE ORGANIC EVOLUTION OF THE GREEK LANGUAGE FROM ANTIQUITY UNTIL THIS VERY DAY WHICH HAS CONTINUOUSLY DOCUMENTED REALITY ^^^I mean, this is a TRUE STATEMENT & would "Cover You" from anyone feeling like you are somehow attacking them. You also hit two birds with one stone, because it seems like a lot of Greece’s Neighbors try to claim their SH!T & are hawking over your videos to try to delegitimize their Hellenic Neighbors with whom some of them feel a Vast Form of Inferiority Complex towards (they shouldn’t, but its a sad reality). What do you say Louka? Do I make some good points. I think I do & I think it would be the Honorable approach! 👍🏻 And I shall take this moment to apologize for any inappropriate behavior I may have had towards you & I would even like to apologize on behalf of my uneducated &/or Ignorant Greek Compatriots that speak utter Non-Sense when they are not studied or qualified on the particular subjects. Hope to hear back from you! 😃

Ευχαριστώ, Αλέξη!

Interesting, do you remember any word examples of this pronunciation? I'd be interested to hear, bc I also live in Northern Greece.

​​@@msicvbes4977Ο κήπος - ου κήπους. Πάμε - παμι. Παμι στουν κήπου. / Το μέρος - του μέρους. Πάω στου μέρους (δηλαδή, στην τουαλέτα, όπως λεγόταν παλιά στα χωριά ). Έτσι μιλούσε η γιαγιά μου, ήταν από τη Χαλκιδική.

That's really fascinating! I suppose it demonstrates that these kinds of sound changes can happen any time.

@@sotiriapapadopoulou8945 Ναι, δίκιο έχεις, αυτή είναι η κλασική έντονη προφορά χωριού που μπορεί να διατηρούν μερικοί μεγαλύτεροι.

@@msicvbes4977 Ναι, στο χωριό η νέα γενιά δεν μιλάει πια έτσι. Δηλαδή, οι περισσότεροι.

Ευχαριστώ, φιλε!

Awesome, that's why I was going for. That's how it feels sometimes when learning about these things. But you know the kind of nerd I am.

@@polyMATHY_Luke I know, I'm your greatest fan from Kosovo

*these :)

Sono contento se ti piace il video!

Ευχαριστώ, Γιάννη! I’ll keep working on it. 👊 🇬🇷

That’s an interesting comparison

By that did you mean that some Linguists group it under the "Hellenic" Languages?

To which hypothesis are you referring?

That always annoyed me about western AG scholars. They tell you how to pronounce every inch of a sentence, how to aspirate, how to drag vowels and so on, but when they speak it they sound like they're speaking their own native language, but with having a few drings along the way. If Luke has such a wrong pronunciation in MG as in this video, why should I listen to all the details he proposes on AG pronunciation? Noone disagrees changes have happened, but clearly there is no right way of reconstructng ancient dialects, especially when from Greek village to Greek village we have differences in pronunciation even today. More so if at the time Greek was a lingua franca in the east mediterranean sea and beyond, therefore many non-natives spoke it, like slaves in Athens and Sparta, like Egyptians, Romans, some Jews and so on. There is no correct ancient Greek pronounciation, I don't like the purism and elitism of such scholars. That's why Katharevousa failed in Greece afterall

Given that I am anti-Erasmian, and loudly proclaim such: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-BOqdrWlR4Gw.htmlsi=q5QVyQqRq-Q5Ij3B it's easy for me to sympathize with your position. Nevertheless "No sane Greek will get angry" is simply not true in my experience; I have had dealings directly with Greek professors of Ancient Greek, who teach all kinds of nonsense, including that Proto-Indo-European studies are not valid, that PIE is just a "theory" etc., and that Ancient Greek pronunciation was identical to Modern Greek - and these are teachers who bring up young children to think like this! And teach the same to adults. While you say these notions may be fringe, I wish that were true, but my observations tell me otherwise. However, when it comes to the reconstruction of ancient phonology, we understand this as well as we understand the sequence of events in the Peloponnesian War, or how much territory Alexander the Great conquered: that is to say, pretty darn well. If you cast doubt on ancient phology, you might as well cast doubt on similar facts of history. And like I said about the ignorance of Western scholars, I have criticized them very loudly, and will continue to do so. As for their distrust of Western scholars for Modern Greek interpretations, if they have had dealings with Greek professors like I have (not just everyday Greeks who haven't done much of the way of deep studies), teachers from Greece dogmatically attached to easily disproven notions, their skepticism of a "Greek" point of view (which in this case could only be synonymous with "shockingly ignorant"), is understandable, don't you think? That doesn't mean they are right, but it does mean that Greek academia needs to put its house in order. Imagine if a majority of Greek academia embraced and used the ancient phonology like Ioannis Stratakis: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-1MQHVPW0bJM.htmlsi=GDXkx7TM7MKRiX6H Then all Western scholars would idolize the Greeks for their immaculate interpretation of Classical Attic Pronunciation, and would imitate them and adore them. If you can, help us spread the word in Greece.

That is a very good observation: indeed, some Dutch dialects have a vowel inventory quite similar to Classical Attic.

you confuse language with dialect the official envoys among the of the Greek cities of their gathering for the Olympic games, the Isthmias, the Delphic Amphictyonians, the gathering at the holy Delos the reading of the Homeric epics the works and study of various poets and philosophers the theatrical performances in all the Greek cities proves that there was no need for language interpretation

That's a very good and interesting question. In my video about dialect vs language ( ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-zUlNhs8rJ_g.htmlsi=hKMYkwLH6TIkpnKa ) I discussed the fact that there are not universal definitions of "language" or "dialect;" some speech types that are considered different languages, like Danish and Norwegian, are mutually intelligible to one another. The varioun Italian dialects are quite divergent from each other, and mutual intelligibility is a challenge, but few are considered languages in their own right. Yet even Spanish and Italian are more mutually intellible than some dialects in Italy are to standard Italian. Some of the Modern Greek dialects, which are found in Italy, Cyprus, Turkey, have diverged quite a bit from Modern Standard Greek, and are comparably different from MSG as the Romance languages are from each other, yet they don't have enough influence or literature to attain consideration as "languages." As to your main question, mutual intelligibility did not appear to be that great among the dialects, except possibly with Macedonian, but we don't have enough information either way on that one. Exposure to one another's dialects was frequent in ancient Greece, and familiarity permits this comprehensibility; add to that the prestige of certain dialects like Ionic, followed by Attic, and two Greeks of different dialect groups could probably have communicated without too much difficulty, certainly no more than a Spaniard and an Italian who don't know each other's language or a common language, yet do quite fine. But we don't have too much commentary on this; in general, the ancients didn't seem very interested in the linguistic metacommentary that we modern scholars so deeply desire, commentary that would be easy to find for modern languages.

@@polyMATHY_Luke there is no chance that one side did not understand the other we have many events, sessions and dialogues in ancient Greece that prove it which you mentioned from the ancient writings after all, geographically Greece is a very small country in terms of area which makes contact very frequent

this was a question about how people spoke the language in comparison with the modern reconstruction . if the reconstruction is 100% correct then there would be some problems in the spoken language while trading . so the question is : could it be that the ancient greek pronunciation had already changed and people pronounced it similarly regardless of how they would write it down?. like how we to it today that we write it differently compared to how it was pronounced in the past

@@panagiotis7946 well i have seen Athenian born people scratch their heads when hearing a Cretan speak so... even today we have that phenomenon

Wow that's interesting!

Ευχαριστώ!

It’s called Gentium. Enjoy!

Hi there, great question. In English the name of the letter is /aiota/. Just like the word “I”, we pronounce the first letter in “iota” as /ai/.

ah ok, now I got it. Thanks for reply 😊

As far as I know, the VA's use the Modern Greek pronunciation and stress accents. They pronounce υ as [i] and not the front rounded vowel [y] like Byzantine Greek has.

That’s true! The reason is that the long ō vowel has closed to /u/. This happens regularly in many languages; one that occurs to me is avicella (little bird in Latin) doing through the stage *ōcella and finally uccello in Italian.

The alphabet? If so, you're close: the Etruscan alphabet was derived from the Euboean version of the Greek alphabet, but the Boeotian version was very close, and they're neighbouring regions. Etruscan itself was a language isolate.

I detest the Erasmian pronunciation, so I hope you don’t think the correct reconstruction of the ancient phonology, as I have demonstrated here, is “Erasmian,” because it is not (this misconception is very common in Greece, due to lack of familiarity with either, so it’s not your fault). I explain more here: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-BOqdrWlR4Gw.htmlsi=G37pNPIq24K_Cxi8 In the above video, I do not say Greeks or anyone should use a reconstructed pronunciation or a Modern Greek pronunciation or any at all; the goal of my message for Greeks in the video was to tell them that the ancient pronunciation was in fact very different. Many Greeks don’t even accept this fact. In your own studies or teaching, please use whatever pronunciation suits you. There are indeed countless reasons why a good restored phonology of Ancient Greek is better than using the pronunciation of Modern Greek, of course - getting the jokes, appreciating the musicality and rhythm of the lines, understanding the morphology and grammar much more clearly - but I have no intention of taking away from Greeks something they like for aesthetic or even practical reasons.

Thank you for your reply. Much appreciated. @@polyMATHY_Luke

It’s not a feature of American English; it’s a feature that can be found in English speakers around the world, about 5% of speakers have it. You can hear it in Chris Hemsworth, Bill Murray, Gwyneth Paltrow, and others from the UK to Canada to New Zealand. Either it has a origin in a different dialect of Old English, and has manages to go unnoticed by the speakers who have it and pass it down mother to to child (as my grandmother did to her mother, which we only realized once I started studying phonetics), or it’s a random occurrence that develops spontaneously. Chris Hemsworth at 42 seconds: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-3jCsZBEuvvw.htmlsi=ufZr-thYtElC1Rzy

Ευχαριστώ φίλε μου. Κυρίως θέλω απλώς να ενημερώσω: τα βιβλία (όπως φαίνεται στο βίντεο) είναι διαθέσιμα σε οποιονδήποτε, αλλά είναι κρίμα που οι Έλληνες που αντιτίθενται με πάθος στις ανακατασκευασμένες προφορές των Αρχαίων Ελληνικών δεν διαβάζουν Vox Graeca, μεταξύ άλλων.

alternatively: would someone be willing to record a pronunciation of the text for me, so that I could learn from that and sing that for the chant?

Yes, Jackson and I support each other on Patreon. He is a great fellow and the pinnacle of scholarship.

That’s very generous, thanks for the compliment. There could be many things that I am wrong about, numerous details that I am trying to understand better. I shall do my best to meet the high standard you have kindly stated. Thanks for watching!

😂😂😂😂

In Attic Greek, Βοιωτίᾱ is pronounced [boi.ɔː.tí.à:] In Koiné Greek, it's [βøi.o:.tí.à:] with a bilabial fricative and a fronted [øi] diphthong for οι. In Modern Greek, it's [vi.o.'ti.a]

Great question. The gentleman below gave a great transcription of them. As for other dialects, that’s hard to determine, since it depends on century. At least we have a good idea of how it may have sounded in 4cBC-2cBC Boeotian, which I showed in the video.

@@polyMATHY_Luke Thank you for answering!

@@Brandon55638 Thank you for your detailed response!

Also, in romance languages with the o>u>y shift (like occitan), ò tends to stay open-mid, about as open as è i'd say. (One thing that looks like evidence that omega stayed open-mid for a while in greek, at least in some varieties, is the greek transcription of egyptian words too) It's also a strong argument for a back upsilon existing for a long time in the varieties in contact with egyptian

My realization of the vowels could be a bit off; plus there is some wiggle room. As for Egyptian, we have evidence to the contrary of what you're saying (though I'm not saying you're wrong; I'd like to see your evidence): Coptic uses ⲱ = /o/ and ⲟ = /ɔ/. Something interesting is that ῳ may have retained its open quality, but not ω, according to Teodorsson (1978).

@@polyMATHY_Luke yeah but that's the thing greek transcriptions of egyptian names have ω in words where coptic has ⲟ, but have υ/ου (υ more often) where coptic has ⲱ~ⲟⲩ (see vergote 1973 on that)

Luke is American, not Italian ;-)

@@Glossologia I am aware ;)

@@StergiosMekras You said 'for an Italian', I guess you meant American haha

@@Glossologia Nah, I was just making a point that his Italian pronunciation is bleeding into his Greek :D (he's still better than 99% of non-Greeks)

I presume that the modern pronunciation came about from indeed particular dialect(s) from ancient times, which supplanted the other dialects through prestige, population shifts (from war, plague, or other catastophes), immigration, and/or just sheer ease of pronouncing itself from that dialect compared to others. These reasons explain many sound changes, especially English.

You should read the sources I carefully listed in the description for you, especially Vox Graeca translated into Modern Greek.

@@polyMATHY_Luke Dear Luke, good morning again. I am sorry to say that unfortunately I have not received any clear answers to my questions that I have put to you. Instead I have received answers through questions which shows me your existing doubts about the certainty of your words. Also the lack of basic respect in your response to me (since there is no greeting or even good morning in your reply) it shows an unwarranted annoyance on your part as I am not advocating something different and specific but just asking my justified questions. Every reply in an ironic way unfortunately gives unfair credit to the answerer. I wish you the best of luck in your continued work and don't forget that:”πρὸς ἐμαυτὸν δ᾽ οὖν ἀπιὼν ἐλογιζόμην ὅτι τούτου μὲν τοῦ ἀνθρώπου ἐγὼ σοφώτερός εἰμι· κινδυνεύει μὲν γὰρ ἡμῶν οὐδέτερος οὐδὲν καλὸν κἀγαθὸν εἰδέναι, ἀλλ᾽ οὗτος μὲν οἴεταί τι εἰδέναι οὐκ εἰδώς, ἐγὼ δέ, ὥσπερ οὖν οὐκ οἶδα, οὐδὲ οἴομαι· ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι εἰδέναι».

Absolutely! And it’s worth noting that different dialects, like Scots, experienced different vowel shifts not quite like standard English

"I regret to inform you that unfortunately I have not received any clear answers to my questions that I put to you." I have no idea what you're talking about. If you posted a comment about the Macedonians on another video and I missed it, understand that I have hundreds of videos and hundreds of new comments a day, and I cannot read or respond to all of them despite my best efforts. "Also the lack of basic respect in your response to me (since there is no greeting or even good morning in your response) shows me an unwarranted annoyance on your part as I I'm not advocating something different and specific but I'm just asking my legitimate questions." Καλημέρα. Also: calm down. None of this is personal. We're just discussing facts and opinions. "Every answer in an ironic way unfortunately gives unfair credit to the answerer." Again, I have no idea what you're talking about, because you username appears to me as @user-ol5fr2yi6t. If we have exchanged comments previously, I would have no way to know that. In any case, I surmise you're talking about whether or not the ancient Macedonians spoke "Greek." Remember that there were many forms of Ancient Greek, the Classical era dialects, and Attic Greek was the prestige dialect as the Macedonian Kingdom rose to power; therefore, nearly every inscription in Ancient Macedonia is written in Attic (and later Koine). Therefore for any name, like Ἀλέξανδρος or Φίλιππος, to be an argument that all Ancient Macedonians spoke "Greek," they would have to be names that are not the same that can be found in Attic. Ἀλέξανδρος and Φίλιππος are fine Attic names, so that doesn't work, since Attic is not native to Macedonia, only Attica. Thus, we have to find non-Attic names and inscriptions in Macedonia proper. Very, very few have been found, and they are akin to Doric. This leads me to believe that the native language of the ancient Macedonians was a type of Greek dialect, similar to Northwest Greek. But it's not much evidence, and it's not good evidence. I said all this in the videos, and in my comments elsewhere. If it's still not clear, I suggest you study the Classical dialects in detail. "Also unfortunately, despite the Italian origin of your surname, you must admit that the Romans took everything from the Greeks and shaped them in their own way as the ancient Greek language, religion and culture existed thousands of years before the creation of the Roman Empire as it was founded by Trojans!" This isn't the least bit relevant to the conversation. Saying this shows you're not especially interested in the discussion at hand, but in showing off the majesty of Greek civilization. This weakens your argument. I suggest you study the Rhetoric of Aristotle.

Thanks for the comment. I shall respond to each of your points: "Why do you feel obligated to endorse the erasmian system (or at least part of it)? " I do not endorse Erasmian; on the contrary, I frequently speak out against it: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-BOqdrWlR4Gw.html There is great confusion in Greece on this point of terminology: Greeks believe any non-Modern-Greek pronunciation of Ancient Greek to be "Erasmian." This is false. Then what is Erasmian? Erasmian is a nickname for the many different pronunciation conventions for Ancient Greek found in schools in Italy, Germany, France, Spain, the UK, etc. While these conventions derive some ideas from Erasmus's reconstruction - hence their being called "Erasmian" - they are all so far off from the actual, attested, scientific pronunciation of Ancient Greek to be laughably absurd. So you and I hold this opinion in common. Instead, I use true reconstructions of the ancient language for different parts of its history and in different geographies; the reconstructed pronunciation of Classical Attic is different from the Attic spoken in the time of the Classica Romans, and differed from the Koine spoken in Egypt, etc. None of these are "Erasmian." "Is it because you were raised in the West?" My profession involves scientifically reconstructing the pronunciation of Latin, Greek, Coptic, and other languages at various points in their histories. My provenance has nothing to do with it. "It looks like that in Attica they followed an orthogaphy of words much like we do today in Greece without necessarily following it." That's very close to what I would say; I would restate it like this: written Modern Greek has a conservative orthography, an orthography well adapted for Classical Attic pronunciation, but since the sound of Greek changed over time, Modern Greek speakers do not follow their ancestors' pronunciation of certain letters (something that happens in virtually every language). "Plus, pronouncing all these diphtongs the partly erasmian way sounds absolutely ridiculous by any language related or musical standard." I challenge you to apply that to various languages that can be found around, and to ask yourself why you feel such pronunciations to be ridiculous. Italian "ai" is pronounced /ai/, just as Classical Attic αι; Italian "oi" is pronounced /oi/ just like Classical Attic; it als has eu /eu/ and au /au/ αυ. This is also true of Spanish, Portuguese, Romanian, Coptic; indeed, Modern Greek is an extraordinary outlier among the languages of the world - all of which follow every "language related or musical standard" as they are real, living languages - in that it has so few true diphthongs. Thus to the second part: why do you find these sounds ridiculous? My guess is that, like most Greeks, you are simply not accustomed to hearing Ancient Greek pronounced differently from Modern Greek, and thus anything that goes against expectations that you feel are fundamental seems alien, and must be "ridiculous." Yet many Greeks every day are adopting the ancient pronunciation of Classical Attic in their scholarship; allow me to introduce you to my friend and colleague Ιωάννης Στρατάκης: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-NX9FPE1OXrA.htmlsi=llzEMPx_dwmoBezB

@@polyMATHY_Luke Troy, Mycenae and Cnossos were all plain fiction for main stream scholarship back only 100 years or so. Academia has failed us most of the time, especially in the humanities. Tradition, on the other hand, has been proven a lot more reliable. For the "West" and its scholars, pretty much EVERYBODY in classical Greece was a homosexual. Off topic but quite illuminating.

@@therealziphius What an absurdly silly argument. Tradition has demonstrably been far, far worse at explaining the history and development of language than modern linguistics. And in any case, it is precisely through archaeology and humanities that we are able to understand what traditional narratives are true, and which are false. Also, no, there is not a single scholar of antiquity in the west who thinks everyone in classical Greece was a homosexual. You simply invented that in order to support these nonsense arguments.

Listen carefully to what he said : - Boetian seems to present "modern features" we find later in Koine/Modern Greek back in the 4th century BC (i..e. centuries prior to formation of Koine) - ... but Boetian's "modern features" were independent developments that have nothing to do with Koine because Koine does not include all other Boetian featurs - LOL! This is the most ludicrus argument one could had ever done. It is dumb beyond embarrassment levels. I am ashamed for him in his position (Germans have a word for it : fremdschämen = vicarious embarassment). I have spotted since years now that Luke often takes dodgy positions and has a very complexed position as per the Greeks, ancient and modern, (just watch his video on Macedonia and you will realise what I talk about...) so that whenever he has such videos I disassemble then down to their nitty gritty details and constantly find such "gems" such as here..... Luke could not even imagine that Koine could had evolved out of the merge of various Greek dialects each giving a number of specific features : for him it is either all or none! This is just moronic - what an embarasssment for someone claiming to be an expert!

The accent marks were developed in the 2cBC. Letters that looked something like lowercase began in antiquity - look up uncials - especially in handwriting. A purposeful difference between majuscule and minuscule did not develop until Charlemagne, it’s true, but the basic forms had existed for centuries prior.

Plūra dīcitō nōbīs, amīce: anne assvētus es sonīs Graecae linguae hodiernae? Quae est tibi difficultās?

Sonōs Graecōs ignōrō. Altōs humilēsque, frontālēs dorsālēsque memoriā tenēre nōn possum. Tū potes. Es magister.

" Ο Έρασμος έκανε μια εργασία για την προφορά των αρχαίων ελληνικών και λατινικών τον 15ο αιώνα, όπου εν συνεχεία ο ίδιος απέρριψε. Απλά διότι έτσι ήταν πιο εύκολη η προφορά τους για τους Ευρωπαίους φοιτητές." Παρόλο που ο Έρασμος έκανε σωστά αυτόν τον διάλογο, η προφορά του «αι» ως /ai/ επιβεβαιώνεται καλά τόσο από τους Αρχαίους Έλληνες όσο και από τους Αρχαίους Ρωμαίους. Για τη μαρτυρία σχετικά με αυτό το θέμα, δές το VOX GRAECA, που συνδέεται στην περιγραφή. "Η πραγματικότητα είναι ότι η ελληνική προφορά δεν αποτελεί ένα μονοσήμαντο μέγεθος θα ήμασταν πραγματικά αφελείς αν πιστεύαμε κάτι τέτοιο." Συμφωνώ. Αυτό το αποδεικνύω στο παραπάνω βίντεο. "Στα αρχαία χρόνια δεν υπήρχε κάποιο κράτος η κάποιος θεσμός που να ορίζει εναν τρόπο προφοράς." Είναι αλήθεια, αλλά οι αρχαίοι γραμματικοί εξήγησαν πώς προφερόταν η γλώσσα στην εποχή τους. "Για να μην μακρηγορήσω, ενας περίγυρος απο όλη την Ελλάδα και την Κύπρο σήμερα αρκεί για να καταλάβουμε πως ούτε και σήμερα τα ελληνικά προφέρονται με έναν τρόπο." Απολύτως σωστό. "Το να νομίζουμε αυθαίρετα οτι ανακαλύψαμε την "πραγματική" προφορά των αρχαίων ελληνικών (που όλως τυχαίως μοιάζει με αυτη των βορείων ευρωπαϊκών γλωσσών και όχι των ελληνικών) (κατα την ίδια λογική που ένας Έλληνας θα προφέρει την λέξη "made" ως μαντέ αντί μέιντ)" Στην πραγματικότητα, έτσι ακριβώς προφερόταν η Μέση Αγγλική. Μπράβο! Το προσδιορίσατε πολύ καλά. en.wiktionary.org/wiki/maken#Middle_English Middle English Pronunciation IPA(key): /ˈmaːkən/, /ˈmakən/ "ειναι το λιγότερο φαιδρός και αφελής, "αν οχι κάτι παραπάνω…" διότι αυτή η κατηγορηματικότητα δεν προκύπτει από πουθενά, όταν βρεθεί αρχαίο iphone 4 με ηχογράφηση συνομιλιών αρχαίων ελλήνων απο του κλασικούς αιώνες τότε ας είμαστε κατηγορηματικοί." Χρειάζεστε ένα βίντεο iPhone για να μάθετε ότι οι Σπαρτιάτες υπερασπίστηκαν τις Θερμοπύλες ενάντια στους Πέρσες; Χρειάζεσαι ηχογράφηση φωνητικού σημειώματος για να μάθεις τι είπε ο Δημοσθένης στην ομιλία του «Υπέρ Κτησιφώντος περί του στεφάνου»; Είστε Έλληνας, κύριε. Από ό,τι έχω διαβάσει, οι Έλληνες στην ιστορία υπήρξαν λαμπροί, στοχαστικοί, ικανοί για μεγάλη δημιουργικότητα και αφηρημένη σκέψη, καταπληκτικοί μελετητές και, πάνω απ' όλα, περήφανοι υπερασπιστές της ιστορίας και του πολιτισμού τους. Μισείτε τόσο πολύ τους προγόνους σας που δεν θα τους επιτρέψετε ούτε την αξιοπρέπεια της δικής τους φωνής; Ξέρω ότι αυτό δεν ισχύει για εσάς, κύριε. Είστε Έλληνας. Οι Έλληνες αγαπούν την ιστορία τους, τον πολιτισμό τους και τη γλώσσα τους. Οι Έλληνες ερευνούν την ιστορία της γλώσσας, ιδιαίτερα την προφορά της, με ζήλο και προσοχή στη λεπτομέρεια. Και αν αισθάνονται ότι αμφισβητούνται σε έναν ισχυρισμό, διαβάζουν τις πηγές, και εκπαιδεύονται τόσο καλά όσο ή καλύτερα από κάποιον Αμερικανό χιλιάδες χιλιόμετρα μακριά. Αποδείξτε αυτό που είστε.

Hi there. Do you mean 2cBC by chance?

Ίσως. Χαχα.

ευ/αυ were never /ey/ /ay/ instead they were /ew/ /aw/ which became /ev/ /ef/ /av/ /af/

In Greece, the Erasmian pronunciation isn't used openly, primarily reserved for the realm of glossology within academic circles. While many Greeks recognize that there are variations between ancient and modern Greek pronunciation, their understanding typically extends only to minor distinctions, with the Erasmian pronunciation remaining largely obscure to them. If you were to use Erasmian pronunciation in conversation, you might elicit laughter and hear comments suggesting that you're applying English phonetics to Greek. Interestingly, high school education in Greece does cover topics such as long and short syllables, but these are often perceived solely as grammatical conventions. The textbooks provided in high schools elucidate these phonological distinctions, yet their phonetic interpretations tend to be overlooked, leaving them confined to the realm of theory.

Podium Arts is a native Greek from Greece. And his channel is 100% Reconstructed Pronunciation.

@@InF3XioN I just want to note that Reconstructed is not the same as Erasmian. Most modern linguists use Reconstructed, since the consensus is Erasmian lacks much accuracy. But, the facts that we know for certain are vowel and consonant length, vowel sound shifts and the 3 way pitch accent system.

@InF3XioN It is common in Greece to use the term "Erasmian" incorrectly, and this is very important: Erasmian is just common academic pronunciations of Ancient Greek used outside of Greece such as in university classes in Italy, Germany, France, the UK, etc., and the differences found in each country's Erasmian vary wildly. It does NOT represent the sound of Ancient Greek, and only a few ignorant professors (or students) believe it does, simply because they lack adequate training. I have railed against Erasmian pronunciation my entire career, as there is no need to use it, when using a true reconstruction of the ancient pronunciation is much more useful. This video of mine may be of interest: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-BOqdrWlR4Gw.htmlsi=4JtwbJi3e0Q3T5K1 Instead of Erasmian or Reuchlinian (which is Modern Greek pronunciation applied to Ancient Greek), using a reconstructed Classical Attic Pronunciation, or one of the variants I propose for Lucian Pronunciation, or Buthian Pronunciation of Late Koine, are all better alternatives that I recommend.

I'm not Luke but I'll attempt to address everything. So, firstly, the very obvious explanation for λοιμός / λιμός is one that matches the inscriptional record - until many centuries later, ι is basically never confused with υ or οι except in front of a labial consonant like μ. This makes a lot of sence - /im/ is naturally going to sound close to /ym/ and /øym/. Secondly, there's the reality that there's actually no indication that people discussing these words in the anecdote were pronouncing them identically - it's no different than people discussing a misheard song lyric. Similar, but not identical sounding words can get confused all the time. It's also really not possible to lean on this evidence because we actually have a completely unambiguous statement from an 11th century grammarian that υ is pronounced like ι by rural dialect speakers, and not in standard urban varieties. Until less than a thousand years ago, the vast majority of Greeks had six vowel sounds, not five, and some archaic dialects today never merged υ with ι in stressed syllables. Now I will address the other points: 1. This is obviously not true. It is extremely possible to learn an ancient and modern version of one language and use different pronuciations while seeing the continuity. I personally speak Latin and Italian, Arabic speakers of course do this, Sanskrit speakers do this, and it's also the norm for Old English, and for Old Norse outside of Iceland. Learning AG with a reconstructed pronunciation will still make it far easier to learn MG or vice versa. 2. This is even more absurd. It actually provides Greeks with their linguistic past. Phonology is as much a part of Ancient Greek, including its literature when you consider metrical texts, as vocabulary, morphology and syntax. When you cut out study of ancient phonology alltogether, you replace the linguistic past with the linguistic present. How the sound system has evolved is part of the beautiful history of Greek. 3. There's absolutely nothing impossible to pronounce in Homer or anything other literature when applying the reconstruction. There are, however, many things impossible to understand just from speaking aloud if we only use the modern pronunciation. These arguments are usually based on a combination of strong foreign accents in people attempting to use the reconstructed pronunciation, as well as the tendency of modern Greeks to misunderstand the reconstruction based on how modern Greek works. For instance, often people don't understand that there is a difference between a diphthong and two separate vowels that are next to each other. 4. Of course, the pronunciation evolved gradually over time, and we have an immense amount of evidence pointing to how this happened. For instance, you point out spelling errors - spelling errors actually show very clear patterns for where and when they appear, which is extremely strong evidence for which changes were happening in which dialects and in which periods. We cannot simply pretend this evidence doesn't exist. 5. Erasmus' treatise is interesting from a historical perspective, but it's of no philological value. There exists not one linguist in any university anywhere in the world who looks to Erasmus in order to determine the pronunciation of any stage of ancient Greek. Allen considers a lot of fonts of evidence, but there are many other words as well (such as Horrocks, or Ben Kantor's recent publication) which exausively consider the evidence. But you run into another issue that I often see Greeks fall into, which is the dismissal of any evidence relying on transcriptions into other languages. We need only look at modern languages to see how silly this is. For instance, Korean lacks an /f/ sound, and so depending on the word, it transcribes English F in one of two ways, either as aspirated /pʰ/, which is by far the most common, or on occasion as /hw/. Based on this sort of evidence alone future linguists would be able to figure out a lot about both English and korean phonology, even if they didn't have recordings or descriptions of pronunciation. How languages transcribe the sounds of other languages show how speakers of one language hear another language, and it is often precisely the innacuracy of that perception which is valuable evidence. So the fact that Latin speakers *never* transcribe η as i, but *consistently* transcribe ει in closed syllables as i, shows that they don't sound the same. You can't just dismiss this. Like, for instance, in English the word 'cat' and the word 'father' are spelled with the same vowel, but an Italian will *consistently* transcribe the former as 'ket' and the latter as 'fadar'. Even though those transcriptions are innacurate, they are clear evidence that the two vowels aren't the same in the original English.

My friend and colleague @Philoglossos has already responded very nicely, but I will add a few points. The lines from Thucydides II.54 are frequently cited in schools in Greece as evidence for the Modern Greek pronunciation existing in antiquity. This is extremely enigmatic, however, since the actual text of Thucydides II.54 (which I am about to go over) proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that at least the words λοιμός and λῑμός had a different pronunciation, and scholars both in Greece and outside of Greece who actually know well the Ancient Greek language and its phonology naturally use Thucydides II.54 to demonstrate that Modern Greek Pronunciation has changed rather dramatically. This is the text of Thucydides II.54: Τοιούτῳ μὲν πάθει οἱ Ἀθηναῖοι περιπεσόντες ἐπιέζοντο, ἀνθρώπων τ᾽ ἔνδον θνῃσκόντων καὶ γῆς ἔξω δῃουμένης. Ἐν δὲ τῷ κακῷ οἷα εἰκὸς ἀνεμνήσθησαν καὶ τοῦδε τοῦ ἔπους, φάσκοντες οἱ πρεσβύτεροι πάλαι ᾄδεσθαι· « Ἥξει Δωριακὸς πόλεμος καὶ λοιμὸς ἅμ᾽ αὐτῷ. » Ἐγένετο μὲν οὖν ἔρις τοῖς ἀνθρώποις μὴ λοιμὸν ὠνομάσθαι ἐν τῷ ἔπει ὑπὸ τῶν παλαιῶν, ἀλλὰ λῑμόν, ἐνί̄κησε δὲ ἐπὶ τοῦ παρόντος εἰκότως λοιμὸν εἰρῆσθαι: οἱ γὰρ ἄνθρωποι πρὸς ἃ ἔπασχον τὴν μνήμην ἐποιοῦντο. Ἢν δέ γε οἶμαί ποτε ἄλλος πόλεμος καταλάβῃ Δωρικὸς τοῦδε ὕστερος καὶ ξυμβῇ γενέσθαι λιμόν, κατὰ τὸ εἰκὸς οὕτως ᾄσονται. In this text, every mention of the account explains that the difference between λοιμός and λῑμός was a difference in how they sounded, in their pronunciation. The prophesy is a verse of dactyllic hexameter: « Ἥξει Δωριακὸς πόλεμος καὶ λοιμὸς ἅμ᾽ αὐτῷ. ». Thus it could have been sung as « Ἥξει Δωριακὸς πόλεμος καὶ λῑμὸς ἅμ᾽ αὐτῷ. », and the meter would still work, but already we have broken the idea that Modern Greek Pronunciation was standard in antiquity, since Modern Greek does not observe phonemic vowel length, and here we must in order to replace one word with the other. The key verbs in the text are ᾄδεσθαι, ὠνομάσθαι, εἰρῆσθαι, τὴν μνήμην ἐποιοῦντο, ᾄσονται, all very clear actions of singing, naming, speaking, remembering one way or the other the sound of something; none of the text has to do with the writing of homophones in a different way, or of interpreting one word for another that sound identical. That the two words sound *similar* is not in dispute; removing the first syllable’s vowel sounds, *λ-μός* is the result; [liː.mós̠] and [lo͡i̯ː.mós̠] sound similar; indeed, they make what is called a minimal pair, where only one difference distinguishes the two words, namely the vowel in the first syllable. Minimal pairs generate confusion all the time in spoken language; they lead to a lot of humor, like “kiss the sky” or “kiss this guy.” Let’s look at the key sentence: Ἐγένετο μὲν οὖν ἔρις τοῖς ἀνθρώποις μὴ λοιμὸν ὠνομάσθαι ἐν τῷ ἔπει ὑπὸ τῶν παλαιῶν, ἀλλὰ λῑμόν, ἐνί̄κησε δὲ ἐπὶ τοῦ παρόντος εἰκότως λοιμὸν εἰρῆσθαι: οἱ γὰρ ἄνθρωποι πρὸς ἃ ἔπασχον τὴν μνήμην ἐποιοῦντο. The argument was about whether λοιμός was *said* in the ancient poem, or λῑμός, but those living through the hell of the plague chose to *say* λοιμός, and thus decided it was uttered as λοιμός by the oracle, since the plague was the imposing horror that the Athenians were suffering through. This line alone proves that they two are spoken different, are pronounced differently. The last line reinforces the auditory nature of the difference, by saying that, should a famine befall the Athenians in another war with the Spartans instead of a plague, then the Athenians would κατὰ τὸ εἰκὸς οὕτως ᾄσονται, most likely *sing* the old prophesy with the word for famine (λῑμός): « Ἥξει Δωριακὸς πόλεμος καὶ λῑμὸς ἅμ᾽ αὐτῷ. » There is absolutely no doubt whatsoever that λῑμός and λοιμός had a different pronunciation for the Athenians of the 5th century BC when Thucydides wrote this text.

Just a couple additional comments: • In Greece, the term "Erasmian" is used incorrectly most of the time (and you have done so here, which is understandable given how the idea must have been taught to you). Erasmian Pronunciation is not the actual, historical pronunciation af Ancient Greek reconstructed by linguists and philologists. I am staunchly anti-Erasmian, since Erasmian is just the common academic pronunciation of Ancient Greek used in various Western schools, and is taught limited by the various phonologies of those countries, and thus does not represent how Ancient Greek truly sounded. I, however, have presented authentic restorations of the pronunciation of Ancient Greek in the above video and others. So be sure not to call it Erasmian; that's like saying modern cosmology is the same as the geocentric model of the universe - that is to say, they are two very different things. My commentary here will fill you in on the rest: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-BybLbHPU7Qc.htmlsi=msl-Mk93KnyruPcd

@@polyMATHY_Luke Thank you for your answer. I have to admit i wrote my initial comment without even watch carefully all your video about Boeotian dialect. I have to say i am quiet pleased by your admission that some of the changes took place in ancient times and that the pronunciation of Ancient Greek used in various Western schools, and is influenced by the phonologies of those countries In my first comment i made a reference to a certain book "about the original pronunciation of the Greek language" This books says that the οι sounded like υ and gives many examples where there are interchanges between them and not like οϊ like the English word toy. Εμοί + εμύ καλοί + καλύ κοίλη - κύλη (κοιλιά + κυλότητα ) ροικός - ρυκός οιαξ + ύαξ ψοιχή - ψυχή. Ποινή = written poena and puna in latin. Βραχύς - βρεφύς - Brevis in latin Α link to download the book for free (very bad quality but it is free) anemi.lib.uoc.gr/metadata/a/8/9/metadata-01-0000974.tkl?dtab=m&search_type=simple&search_help=&display_mode=overview&wf_step=init&show_hidden=0&number=10&keep_number=&cclterm1=&cclterm2=&cclterm3=&cclterm4=&cclterm5=&cclterm6=&cclterm7=&cclterm8=&cclfield1=&cclfield2=&cclfield3=&cclfield4=&cclfield5=&cclfield6=&cclfield7=&cclfield8=&cclop1=&cclop2=&cclop3=&cclop4=&cclop5=&cclop6=&cclop7=&isp=&search_coll%5Bmetadata%5D=1&&stored_cclquery=&skin=&rss=0&lang=el&ioffset=1&offset=1 or to buy it www.politeianet.gr/books/9789607375063-oikonomou-eu-konstantinos-filomuthos-peri-tis-gnisias-proforas-tis-ellinikis-glossis-protos-tomos-94641

@@Adedorusss οι began to sound like υ from the middle of the Koine period, yes, though probably not already in Classical Attic. 🙂

"1.Why do you keep pronouncing Θ as T?" I am not. In Classical Attic, θ is /tʰ/, an aspirate, which is not the pronunciation of Attic τ which is /t/. The aspirate sound is found in many modern and ancient languages, including Hindi, Armenian, Sanskrit, and Chinese. "2. When you pronounce my name αιοαννης you shouldn't mind us pronounce koine κοινη." I'm not sure what you mean about your name Ιωάννης -- why would I pronounce your Modern Greek name in a manner different from Modern Greek? Nor is there a problem with Greeks pronouncing the Modern Greek word κοινή in the manner of Modern Greek. The problem that I address in the video is that Greeks, ignorant of the pronunciation of the ancient language, and equally ignorant of the norms of English, assume that words that have a cognate in Modern Greek must be pronounced in the same manner as Modern Greek. "3. If accents change every so often, then you shouldn't be too sure about how latin was pronounced every 50 years and are importantly by WHO. Greek and latin were spoken by so many different nationalities whose mother tongue was another language." True, but we are indeed certain of the phonology both of Classical Latin and Classical Attic. You don't have to take my word for it; all the sources are listed in the description including Vox Graeca written in Modern Greek. Start there. "4. Why do you take as granted that the majority of Greeks in classical times would or should have an Athenian accent?" I do not take that as granted; this video demonstrates precisely the contrary by showing how differently Boeotian, a neighbor to Attic, was pronounced. "Why would you consider the athenian accent as prevalent?" The Attic dialect was dominant, and other Greeks learned Attic due to its prestige, as well as non-Greeks, just as you learned English following the norms of British or American pronunciation, and not Irish or Australian pronunciation. "It turns out that the majority of Greeks had a 'beotian' accent seems to me, and that is why and how it survived to this day." This is an interesting hypothesis, and it is worth considering. Do you have proof of this? Have you read the detailed treatises on this subject, many of which are linked in the description? These are not rhetorical questions; your idea is an interesting one, but you would have to read and know the conclusions of other scholars, and then present a different interpretation of the same evidence, or new evidence, to support your conclusion. "5. I really want to know WHAT makes you think you know how older pronounciations sounded without a voice recording." For the same reason we don't need a video recording of the Spartans at Thermopylae to know they defended Greece against the Persians. Or do you not believe anything you haven't seen with your own eyes or heard spoken with your own ears? This is the meaning of history, which Herodotus himself invented; the history of wars, the history of art, the history of language. Do you look at the Parthenon and believe it always looked exactly like that 2500 years ago? Or do you believe what experts have told you about the ancient architecture and design, of the great statue of Athena that was there inside? Or, if you don't believe them, have you taken the time to learn about the history of Greek archicture, such that your knowledge rivals the experts? The knowledge is waiting for you. You don't need my permission to educate yourself. To answer your question directly: not only I, but we as a civilization understand how Ancient Greek was pronounced thanks to numerous pieces of evidence, which are all linked in the description. "6. It seems to me that is very CONVENIENT that ancient Greek were pronounced with a modern English accent." Ancient Greek certainly sounds nothing at all like English. If you think my recitations in Ancient Greek sound anything like English, then you need to improve your studies of English. "Isn't it a little strange that out of all european languages, English is somehow closer to the ancient Greek pronounciation." Like I said, you seem really confused on this point, and it might be that you don't have a very good ear for language. That's not a crime; it takes years to develop the skill. English does not resemble either Ancient Greek or Modern Greek phonology very closely, but it is definitely closer to Modern Greek than Ancient Greek, simply by virtue of the fact that Modern Greek has θ /θ/ δ /ð/ φ /f/ β /v/, none of which occur in Classical Attic. "After all, english is the ONLY language where A, E, I, U, Y, O,H, W, G sound funny and so different to any other language???" You are really revealing your ignorance of other modern languages here. English has 26 vowel sounds, and indeed many of them are very strange when compared with other European languages, though some come closer than others. Classical Attic has a vowel inventory fairly close to that of Modern Greek, and a bit closer to Italian (in antiquity, Latin's vowel inventory was more similar to Modern Greek, which is an interesting switch). "Why would the English know better about how Greek sounds and not the French or the German?" I don't need to teach the French or the Germans about Modern French or Modern German, but the French and the Germans are as ignorant of the pronunciation of Old French and Gothic as Greeks are of Ancient Greek, just as an Englishman has no skill in understanding the pronunciation of Old English; indeed, an Italian or Spaniard would do far better. "Have you ever heard how an english speaker sounds when they read latin???" Lol, are you a newcomer to this channel? Your question will be easily answered if you look around a bit here, and on my other channel ScorpioMartianus. "Imagine a Greek and an English person read latin in front of a ancient roman. Can you guess which of the two will the roman understand?" I am an English speaking person. As ancient Latin phonology is my core discipline, I would indeed do far better than a Modern Greek. Still, I get your point, and I agree that Modern Greek is closer to Classical Latin phonology, which I just stated above. "7. So you are telling me that E sounds eee just because this is how it sounds in english???? So the ancient Athenians used H for the sound of E??? Really??? You believe that." I don't need to believe anything; I have read what the ancient grammarians said about the Ancient Greek language, and they tell us exactly that. Have you read them? Have you taken the time? Do you realize that all the information you need is linked in the description? "So ΚΗ sounded κε?" No. Read Vox Graeca, linked in the description. "8. I believe that an english speaker cannot really understand how Greek sounds especially when he cannot really pronounce latin properly." I speak Latin very properly: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-lU9BsRH9h0s.htmlsi=Vwfa5zkTmMMSBAx- "9. The pronounciation of Greek has passed on through generations down to this day, and even through the ecclesiastical speech and hymns it is not possible to have changed, at least since the koine rule." That is not true, and easily disproven. For this, I recommend Horrocks' book, linked in the description. "To be comes from the Greek ESTIN (qui est?). And ego habeo. Εγω εχω. These became ich haben and then I Have from the anglo saxons who came from north Germany in the jutland peninsula." This is very incorrect. "to have," ἔχω, and habeō have three completely different origins: en.wiktionary.org/wiki/habeo *From Proto-Italic *habēō or *haβēō, from Proto-Indo-European *gʰeh₁bʰ- (“to grab, to take”). English have is not a cognate, despite similarity in meaning and form; it is instead cognate with capiō (“to take”) through Proto-Indo-European.* en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ἔχω Did you even bother to research this before making such as easily falsifiable claim? Nor is English from German. Modern English comes from Old English which comes from West Germanic. Modern German comes from Old High German which comes from West Germanic. You knowledge of both modern and ancient languages, as well as linguistics, is insufficient to establish, much less prove, contrary hypthoses. You have a lot of homework to do. I expect you to do it.

@@polyMATHY_Luke You talk about modern Greeks being ignorant of how ancient Greek sounded, which means that you are generalising. You said your self that not all ancient Greeks had a different pronounciation. So you cannot say that ancient Greek was pronounced differently. You may say that some dialects were pronounced differently.

@@polyMATHY_Luke you mean that the German Ich Haben which became I have does not come from Habeo? :-) I cant agree with that.

@@polyMATHY_Luke the aspirated 'T' may well be found in many modern languages but not in Greek. Problem is that those languages who have 'aspirated' Ts do not have non aspirated Ts. So it is either the one or the other. Also, again it was not all ancients Greeks who said T like that, so better not say that ancient Greek generally was different.

@@ioannisdimopoulos6234 Not only does it not come from habeo, but it cannot come from habeo, and this is obvious if you have even the slightest understanding of Indo European linguistics. You can't agree with it because you don't base your opinions on evidence, just on intuition. 🙂

This isn't Erasmian at all. We know a lot about how Ancient Greek sounded like. Because they actually wrote it down how it sounded.

@@Ψυχήμίασμα Take the word par example. Athenian pronunciation is similar to Cretan is more TSE whereas in Cypriot is closer to JE (as in jet without the t) We can make a guess of how ancient Greek sounded like by linguistical analysis of the individual word and comparing it to the sound of the same, or similar words in other Latin based languages or in direct comparison to the same word with other Greek dialects. But it will still remain a guess. To sum up. NO! we don’t know how the ancient Greek language sounded like and even if we can come close to Attic Greek we would still need to find out how Macedonian Greek, or Arcadian, or Ionic or…….sounded like. You do get the meaning. Don’t you? For sure we know how Cretan, Cypriot, Pontic, Grigio and Tsakonian dialects sound now and these dialects and their sounds must be preserved in all eternity.

@@TartarusPyro Linguistics is not a guess. You make it sound like the Ancient Greeks never wrote about how they pronounced things. Or that linguists have no scientific system. While you are correct that we do not know the exact quality of Attic, what I meant was we can certainly have a good idea of what it sounded like. We actually also have ancient sources about how Arcadian, Ionian, Aeolian, all sounded like. We know και was pronounced with the αι being a diphthong /ai/ and not like modern Greek where it is /kɛ/. That was an attested sound shift during the Koine period. We know, just by the way Ancient Greek was written, that there was phonemic vowel length, diphthongs, and a 3 way pitch accent system. While we don't now for sure the exact qualities of these, we know they existed.

@@Ψυχήμίασμα There are also some facts these theories rely on. For instance, we know η and ω were long vowels, whereas ι and o were short vowels. We also know that υ at the beginning of the words was pronounced with spiritus asper (δασύ πνεύμα), which must have been a very soft h before the /i/ sound. We know that when τόνοι (accent marks) were introduced, scholars felt the need to use three different ones: Οξεία, περισπωμένη, βαρεία. So there were three different ways of stressing a syllable. There are many such “clues” about ancient Greek pronunciation. Based on these, we can come up with a reconstructed Ancient Greek pronunciation, but each reconstruction is only a hypothesis.

@@Ψυχήμίασμα how can i say it for me after studying and talking with alot of teachers the best sounding and in terms of smoothness its how modern greeks teach ancient greek its just sounds better and unique how can i say it as a greek would everything else sounds barbarian to me

Interesting. In sicilian opened "e" becomes "i" in unstressed positions, similar to many greek dialects

You also did not live in antiquity. Do you doubt that the 300 Spartans defended Thermopylae? Do you not believe Alexander conquered the Persians, even though there is no video footage of this event? Read the sources in the description. Phonology is a key part of your history, as important as the deeds of great men.

Do you mean the Modern Greek I spoke, or the Ancient Greek?

@@polyMATHY_Luke the modern Greek.

not a critique, just an observation. I enjoy watching your channel very much.

It’s definitely interference from Italian. I speak Italian every day, so that explains it. I’ll work on it. Thanks for the feedback!

@@polyMATHY_Lukedude you are so humble, mad respect!

Sorta unrelated, but I really find these definitions really fascinating. Latin casa (hut,cottage) descended to Spanish and Italian casa meaning just (house), displacing domus. Why? I presume it is because casas were becoming more commonplace as houses & domi were more rare and specialized in religious contexts, which explains why Italian still has "Duomo" but Spanish doesn't have a descendent of this word. Villas additionally were still around and were repurposed as monasteries or fortified farmsteads, which would become "villages".

Sorry in advance for the example that am going to give But the Turkish word " Kargiola" that means bed in Turkish in modern Greek means " Bitch " 😏 My point is that when a word makes it to an other language often gets a very different meaning altogether or vaguely related to cultural bias, stereotypes ect 😉

Good correction. I checked both, and preferred φθόγγοι at first, but then other dictionaries gave me ήχοι even in the context of phonology, so I chose that word (but was still unsure). In any case, thanks very much for the tip; I’ll make sure I use the proper term on the next occasion.

Hehe. Yeah it’s artificially added (by me) to my speech. Once I realized it’s still alive and well in so many accents around the English speaking world from Ireland to Australia to Canada to the UK to the US, I figured it was fair I restore it.

Wow! I had no idea it was so bad in China. This can happen in countries with strong nationalism. While nationalism has good aspects, it can also resist things like ancient phonology.

Which changes in Chinese are you referring to?