The Book of Abraham - Analyzing LDS Apologetics Evidence | Ep. 1707 | LDS Discussions Ep. 31

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Today we’re going through various apologetics and theories around the Book of Abraham to reconcile it being considered scripture along with what we know the literal interpretation of these things to be. What problems do these apologetics create in other areas for believers? Do these theories hold water without a strong bias to believe in spite of all evidence? Do some apologists even admit it?
LDS Discussions Essay on the Book of Abraham:
www.ldsdiscussions.com/bookof...
LDS Discussions Playlist: • Joseph Smith and Treas...
00:00:00 Introduction & recap of previous episode
00:11:20 A quick note on the scope of today’s episode
00:14:45 Book of Abraham apologetics
00:30:45 The games apologists play
00:38:30 A few notes on these two videos
00:41:30 The lost/long scroll theory
00:49:15 The manuscripts of the Book of Abraham match the papyrus
00:52:10 The manuscripts tell us where the translation is from
00:54:30 Let’s look at where the translation comes from against Facsimile 1
00:56:30 Math tells us that there is no long scroll
01:06:30 The long/lost scroll references are late and problematic
01:11:15 Brian Hauglid now rejects the long/lost scroll theory
01:16:30 Charlotte Haven’s account is frequently cited
01:20:30 Book of Abraham Apologetic #2: The Catalyst theory
01:24:30 The Book of Abraham itself kills the Catalyst Theory
01:33:25 The Catalyst Theory against the actual source material
01:34:15 Let’s look again against the source material of the Book of Abraham
01:42:15 Look at how Kerry Muhlestein frames this problem
01:46:05 Look at what Kerry Muhlestein is doing here
01:50:45 The Catalyst Theory makes a “Trickster God” look like a foolish God
01:55:30 John Gee Explains why the Catalyst Theory does not work
02:00:00 Joseph Smith absolutely believed it was a translation
02:05:00 Facsimile 3 creates the biggest smoking gun for Joseph Smith
02:06:20 Look at how Joseph Smith describes the translation process
02:15:25 How apologists expand the universe of reality
02:18:05 Kerry Muhlestein misrepresents Abraham on the Lion Couch
02:22:30 Maybe Joseph Smith got it right and everyone else has it wrong
02:26:15 Conclusion on the Book of Abraham translation
Episode Show Notes: www.mormonstories.org/podcast...
LDS Discussions - Book of Abraham Playlist:
• The Book of Abraham Ov...
Egyptologist Dr. Robert Ritner on the Book of Abraham:
• Dr. Robert Ritner - An...
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23 июл 2024

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Комментарии : 170

@mormonstories Год назад

The Book of Abraham Overview: Translation and Source Material: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-6TgWvGUd7ns.html

@erincole6636 Год назад

As a non-Mormon, I find the apologetics almost as fascinating as the actual lore!

@TEAM__POSEID0N Год назад

Yes. Watching the apologists in action is a bit like watching those people at parties who blow air into balloons and then twist the balloons into all kinds of fantastic shapes, like puppies. Like they've mastered the art of using hot air to make people see things that have shapes that sort of crudely resemble real things.

@dawne2780 Год назад

As someone who believed the apologetics for many years, it's interesting to listen to Mormon Stories talk about it. Because if you're convinced that God has spoken to your heart and told you this church is true, and that's your premise... I mean, if God had actually spoken to you you'd believe it right? Apologetics in Mormonism aren't about presenting the facts and using Occam's Razor to whittle down the most probable history. It's more about, "if the church is true, what are possible ways that ALL the facts could line up without contradicting?" This show has a tendency to mock someone for not deciding their faith should start with empirical science... but Mormons don't think that way. They already "know" the church is true. Which is why it is a little harsh to call all Mormon scholars dishonest (though certainly some are.) Because it doesn't matter if the church's two most accepted theories are in contradiction: only one of them has to be right. They're in the field of thought experiment to feel good about their beliefs. The truth isn't as important as a possible justification that could be true. It drives me crazy when they talk about a testimony as "the scientific method" though haha.

@jeffk464 Год назад

I used to find it fun to go onto the flatearther youtube videos and come up with arguments to defend the flat earth theory. This kind of reminds me of that. Its a bummer that youtube shadow bans flat earth videos.

@MKConnecticut Год назад

These comments are just - sometimes from another world. How much more obvious could it be ? It’s painful to watch

@lilliancooley967 4 месяца назад

Hahahahaha yep it’s ridiculous hahahaha

@jenniannefer Год назад

Something else I find interesting is that J.S. claimed that the gold plates were SO sacred that no one but him could physically look at them, but along come the [edit: supposed*] scrolls of Abraham, and not only can anyone look at them, but the Smith family goes on to treat them like a side-show, charging people admission to see them. It suddenly seems very clear the difference in behavior between an entirely invented artifact that never existed (the gold plates) and real physical object (the papyri).

@JP-JustSayin Год назад

Another banger ... its hard to believe we are 30+ episodes deep ... it all still feels so fresh. Keep these coming MSP team.

@wagnersilvalds Год назад

Hi all. Watching these two episodes amezed me. The story John told of how it started for him to question was basedon this topic, just marches with mine. This year (2023) I will be 30 years in the Church. I'm a convert since 12 y/o and devoted all my life to the Church. Been full time missionary in Japan, Branch president, Bishop, High Counsel, temple officer, etc. During Covid-19 lock downs, among other things, I went to make a research (for fun) as being locked home to try to find out the parts in the fac-simile 3 where some parts are not yet revealed. I'm fascinated with ancient civilizations and smcommenced studying Egyptian even before going to Mission. And for some reason decided to bring this back during Covid-19 as I had more free time at home. Which started as something for fun became shocking when I discovered these are just ordinary funeral scrolls and nothing close to sacred scriptures divinely translated from a papiry. This led me to go deeper to make sure and as I researched (thanks technology we have access to almost any info now) Jewish history, Talmud, etc and saw there is nothing at all about Abraham book. And saw several studies in important universities around the globe in USA and UK. I speak 5 languages and I have knowledge of many others and the defense from apologistis were not even close to make me reconsider. Because this was a fraud, what about all the other translations, revelations and doctrine? All fell apart. And now, I'm really convinced that should stand up on this. No regrets for my Mission and all I did, but now after watching so much details on the translations, his personal life and so many other things, I just can't support anymore. It's a nice place and principles taugjt, but in no way it's divine.

@Geospasmic 7 месяцев назад

I love that Abraham put "see fig. 1" leaving no room for appologists to claim that's not what he's talking about.

@WeeGrahamsaccount Год назад

Merry Christmas to everyone involved with Mormon Stories Podcast.

@marcellacruser951 Год назад

What it comes down to is "The Book of Abraham" is not the Book of Abraham, bc there is no Book of Abraham. Joseph Smith got his hands on something he never dreamed would be translated at a later date, and told a big, fat lie. How do you apologize for that, without telling more lies? Ya don't.

@Scott23882 Год назад

It really is the book of Abraham

@grantbeck9228 Год назад

how do mormons just waive away the problems with the book of abraham? my brother can admit the book of abraham doesnt seem like real scripture, but still believes the rest of what joseph smith produced. I think its grounds to throw it ALL out

@louhi6015 Год назад

The need to believe something is true is so strong? Have you asked him about it?

@kera9389 Год назад

They have blinders, they are taught their whole lives to not question the prophets. So they just can’t open up and take it at face value

@GeekdomCentral Год назад

Indoctrination is a hell of a thing. I don’t know if you were ever Mormon (and if you were, how long it has been since you got out), but this stuff runs DEEP. Especially in the heart of a Mormon community, it’s literally everywhere, all the time. It’s there from the moment that you’re born, in every room of your house, part of every conversation every day. That’s not an easy thing to turn your back on and realize isn’t true. It requires a fundamental restructuring of your entire world view, and for some people, part of their core identities. Not that it excuses people who still act like assholes, but it is possible to sympathize with people who aren’t ready to look behind that curtain yet

@kera9389 Год назад

@@GeekdomCentral 100%

@xyz7572 Год назад

It’s sunk-cost-fallacy. In order to acknowledge that what they believe is untrue, they’ll also have to acknowledge that the years of their lives that they’ve dedicated to this faith have just been wasted, and that’s too painful so their brains just push away that possibility. They’ve spent years of their lives believing it, so therefore it must be true.

@zachgarver7922 Год назад

I am confused by something so obvious I feel like I must have missed something. If the papyrus was written by Abraham in his own hand, would it have been in Egyptian Hieroglyphics in the first place? Wasn't Abraham's language an ancient form of Hebrew?

@mormonstories Год назад

I guess the theory is that Abraham learned Egyptian when he traveled there?

@LoveMeSomeTrueCrime Год назад

“And I say these things in the name of Mike and Mormon stories podcast, amen.” 😂😂😂

@kera9389 Год назад

It’s like having faith the earth is flat when it’s been proven it’s round. Seems pretty simple to me

@monus782 4 месяца назад

As a non-Mormon I was used to apologetics in defense of a young earth but I’m starting to think this is worse and as you said they might as well try to prove the earth is flat (after all some Christians have started to believe that as well). Listening to apologists trying to defend the Book of Mormon as historical is what convinced me that at worst apologetics is the art of the defending the indefensible and this work is even less defensible than that.

@christyn_noir Год назад

I can't express just how disappointed I am to realize, however impractical, that firesides aren't always done around an actual fire.

@yvonnevzp 5 месяцев назад

I can remember being a teenager and being disappointed that there was no fire at the fireside. I thought that would make it significantly better.

@atphoenix2020 Год назад

Joseph was nothing more than a carnival conman. I am so thankful to be officially out if this lying cult. The more I learn about the games that have been played since day 1 and are being perpetuated by the 15 in the ivory tower today, the more infuriated and angry I become. I hope Mormon, Inc falls flat on its face. Frauds they are and we were the fools to believe it.

@Scott23882 Год назад

It is this channel that is the conman

@Bigbluedome 2 месяца назад

Well said. It is fraud and needs to fall.

@monus782 4 месяца назад

It was listening to apologists trying to defend the Book of Mormon as historical that convinced me that at worst apologetics is basically the art of defending the indefensible but this is even less defensible than that, it’s similar to how many Christian apologists try to defend a young earth despite all the evidence for evolution and I’ve heard many point out it’s to keep the believers in. One of the things that kept me in my high demand Catholic community for longer than it should’ve been was also using the reasoning that apologists were smarter than me and knew what they were doing instead of looking at their arguments, it was basically confirmation bias at its worst.

@hourofprayer2960 Год назад

They tailor the evidence, to suit the theory

@JH-cg8ng Год назад

Nice pun! It's funny 'cuz it's true

@ThomasJDavis Год назад

1:41:02 I would say that the most condemning implication of the catalyst theory is that, based on the assumption that the LDS god exists, god has compromised his trustworthiness and his claim to moral perfection. This elaborate deception with his own prophet of the restoration renders him on par with the character of Satan. You couldn't tell the difference between the two because god has demonstrated that he's willing to engage in these kinds of elaborately deceptive measures to bring about his own scripture. And it doesn't take this level of deception in order to, not only bring about scripture through revelation, but to maintain the condition of faith in the origin of the text. So even if the LDS god exists, he's not worthy of our worship. And this kind of divine blunder would only give evangelicals and other Christian denominations greater reason not to trust the claims of the LDS church. It would fall squarely in line with their beliefs that the LDS church is a product of Satan, meant to lead people away from the true Christian gospel, etc. edit: And also that this makes god responsible for everyone's apostasy who left because of this issue.

@wichu Год назад

dropping a comment for the al gore rhythm

@hyrumjrichardson Год назад

Oh shit, Al gore Rhythm is here? Definitely giving this one a watch

@susangroom960 Год назад

Mike, you have done amazing research. Thank you, to John, and everyone. How do those apologists sleep at night? The paychecks must be enormous.

@Enos_Envy Год назад

What is the worth of a soul...?

@perryekimae Год назад

John Dehlin putting forward the long hug hypothesis of sex should be the highlight of the episode! In seriousness, the apologetics around BoA are absolutely absurd. Best indication of how piss poor the apologetics for the church actually are.

@ritaconley9544 Год назад

Sounds like the emperor has no clothes story. “Even if they are lying”?

@TruthRevolution101 Год назад

Thanks for another great discussion John! You guys are awesome! God bless!!

@teresapitman1659 Год назад

Another wonderful episode! Love Mike and his amazing work.

@Valeriamtzp Год назад

I love how the boa can be easily debunked, hell, it has even been debunked by the church, and yet you guys take the time to make this long videos to make sure no apologetic has a chance to prove anything, I will watch every single one of them 👍🏻

@imkindofabigdeal4308 9 месяцев назад

Putting the "translation" in the context of it taking until a mid-19th century timeframe when hieroglyphics could be reliably translated, one might assume that the risk of getting caught mistranslating was low. I mean...if you were prone to make stuff up the risk was pretty low.

@MKConnecticut Год назад

Mike- you are SO AWESOME!,,,,

@louhi6015 Год назад

Very interesting episode, thank you!

@user-og2wt3le4j Год назад

The gospel topics essay on this subject now says members can believe the BA is a translation or it is inspiration. That is confusing because the papyrus was either translated or JS just looked at it an got the BA by inspiration as a prophet. Either way it poses a problem.

@chrewtransformation Год назад

Abraham is as real as Santa Claus 🎅 Merry Christmas everyone 🎄

@PatriciaHaggard Год назад

Happy Solstice:)

@mylesmarkson1686 Год назад

I always knew there's a Santa!

@TEAM__POSEID0N Год назад

At the shopping mall here...Abraham is Santa Claus. He does landscaping in the spring, summer and fall...hands out candy canes to children in December.

@laurenpayne8194 Год назад

John just has all the analogies this episode

@mormonstories Год назад

I hope they didn’t suck!

@JP-JustSayin Год назад

My favorite was when John said "its like finding a copy of Dr Seuss that is missing 3 pages and claiming that's where the text of les miserable used to be" Nevermind that les miserable is too voluminous for that space ... nevermind that we have other copies of Dr Seuss and therefore we know what should be on those missing pages ... ... This is a spot on analogy for the lost/long scroll theory ... 🤣 😂 🤣

@louhi6015 Год назад

@@JP-JustSayin That's a good one, but I also liked the part where the BYU student tells that he just hugged his girlfriend, nothing more happened 🤣🤣🤣

@TEAM__POSEID0N Год назад

@@mormonstories They were great!

@TEAM__POSEID0N Год назад

Even if I was inclined to believe in the Book of Abraham, the whole story of how it came to be makes me feel like Heaven (Inc.) was experiencing major budget cuts and tighter heavenly resource management policies during that period of time, compared to the production of the Book of Mormon. When it was time for the Book of Mormon to come forth, Joseph Smith did not have to first purchase the golden plates to get access to that sacred record. Granted, given the price of gold, the outright purchase of the plates probably would have been at a price much higher than Chandler charged for the crumbly papyrus scrolls. But notice that Joseph Smith did not even have to lease the golden plates under a reasonably affordable monthly lease fee arrangement. Nope. When the time came, Moroni just basically said: "Here you go! Be careful with them and don't show them physically to anyone and don't even let anyone see them with 'spiritual eyes' other than Martin Harris or some members of the extended Smith and Whitmer families. Keep them in a box and/or under a cloth out of sight at all times. When you're finished, I have to take them back to the precious metal sacred scripture storage unit in heaven and I'll be in big trouble if they're damaged! The Bank of Heaven has listed them as official collateral." There was no mention of any money having to change hands for Joseph Smith to get his hands on the golden plates. Furthermore, notice that heaven even assigned a resurrected angel-type erstwhile ancient America scripture celebrity guy to manage the production of the Book of Mormon translation. Moroni's appearance fees would not have been cheap. But when it came to the Book of Abraham, they couldn't even send a heavenly temp worker spirit or junior trainee angel to help? (Of course Abraham's appearance fee probably would have been prohibitive. But since it was his own book after all, you'd think he would have been willing to put in an appearance and help with the production for a reduced fee or as a public service.) It was like Joseph Smith got an e-mail from heaven telling him that due to budget cuts in heaven he should not expect as many freebies and customer service help this time compared to what he got with the Book of Mormon: "First you will have to pay for the scrolls. No heavenly celebrity will be there to help you with promotions. You'll have to be permanently responsible for storage and maintenance of the scrolls because we don't have any papyrus storage facilities in heaven anymore. Just a word of advice, Joe. You may want to get your mother to charge people 25 cents to see the scrolls. People like to see ancient stuff and 25 cents is 25 cents. Just a thought. Good luck!"

@mormonstories Год назад

Brilliant.

@teresapitman1659 Год назад

I'm laughing but also shaking my head at how ridiculous all these JS stories are.

@tompabompa Год назад

@louhi6015 Год назад

What would happen if the LDS church admitted that the BoA is not true? That it is purely Joseph Smith's imagination?

@louhi6015 Год назад

As a never mo I'm genuinely interested. Any thoughts?

@TEAM__POSEID0N Год назад

Theoretically, I guess the leaders of the LDS church could do that. It would likely upset and startle many of the members of the church, especially the older ones who have grown up believing that the BoA is part of the official canon of scripture of the LDS church, meaning that it has equal standing as "holy scripture" alongside the Old Testament, the New Testament, the Doctrine and Covenants and the Book of Mormon. But what would happen if they admitted that the BoA is not true? I think the current hemorrhaging/loss of active, tithe-paying members would accelerate measurably. But many members would probably find ways to cope, while studiously avoiding any thoughtful consideration of what such a change should mean to them. Things like that aren't entirely unprecedented. The reversal of polygamy at the end of the 19th century was a huge change and shock, constituting a reversal of a doctrine that had become part of the core identity of the LDS church. If they felt a need to openly admit that the BoA was fake scripture, the leaders would obviously do their utmost to manage and manipulate perceptions and reactions with sophisticated public relations strategies and talking points. Logically, I don't see how anyone could continue believing that there have ever been inspired "prophets" and "apostles" leading the LDS church, given a situation where they were to admit that for most of the entire history of the church they mistakenly canonized and taught as holy scripture a book that was totally fake, fraudulent and uninspired from the outset. But I already don't see how anyone can logically believe that there have ever been genuinely inspired "prophets" and "apostles" leading the LDS church. Nonetheless, defying all logic and reason, there are still millions who do believe. So who knows? Maybe the leaders could pull it off, along with all the other changes they've made over the years (including basic elements of the temple rituals), and simply convince the flock that it's nothing to be concerned about. The parts of the BoA they still find useful for current teachings, they could just claim as being inspired, and the rest can be flushed down the memory hole toilet. Brigham Young literally taught that Adam is THE God that Mormons worship. Subsequent leaders have totally repudiated that and have essentially announced that Brigham Young did not know God from Adam...and most members just took it all in stride. I guess the only thing that really matters is what the current leaders put in front of the members. It's really always been a huge game of "Simon Says" anyway.

@FFM115 Год назад

They already did it subtly when they changed the narrative from translation to inspiration. The problem is that most members didn’t notice it.

@louhi6015 Год назад

@@TEAM__POSEID0N For some reason YT hid your reply, I can see it in my notifications but it doesn't appear in this thread. Lately I've started to understand that some people have a very strong need to believe in things that aren't true. It comforts them or is such a big part of their life. Just think about the Heaven's Gate cult, there are still people who believe in that nonsense. So probably in this case too, some people don't want to lose their faith. Humans as a species are quite undeveloped in the end. By the way, I didn't know about Bingham's teachings about Adam. Interesting! Have to check that out.

@louhi6015 Год назад

@@FFM115 But it was only a subtle change. What if the change was more drastic? As I already answered to Team Poseidon, some people have a very strong need to believe in things that are not true. It comforts them or is such a big part of their life. How many would eventually leave the church? Would someone develop their own sect again?

@happiness9752 Месяц назад

I'm a member and I love what you guys do (for the most part)... You do an awesome job at getting rid of the Cowardly middle ground crap so many of our spineless apologists do

@TEAM__POSEID0N Год назад

I get the impression that Gee and Muhlestein are competing to see who can be the best poster boy for the "begging the question" fallacy. If somebody were to ask me to provide two real-life examples of the "begging the question" fallacy in action, I couldn't do better than to show them what Gee and Muhlestein demonstrated in the clips that you provided here. In both cases, they are literally assuming the truthfulness of the indispensable premise for their conclusion that the Book of Abraham, as revealed/translated by Joseph Smith through and by the power of God, is genuinely a record made by Abraham (of Old Testament fame). Instead of proving that their conclusion is correct by thoroughly examining the premise, i.e. that Joseph Smith revealed/translated the Book of Abraham from the papyrus scroll through and by the power of God, they "prove" that their conclusion is correct by simply assuming that was exactly what happened and...therefore...they can discard any contrary evidence as being misunderstood, misguided, missing something or malevolently manufactured. As is usually the case with begging the question scenarios, we're also left with a classic case of circular reasoning: The Book of Abraham is true because it was produced by the Prophet Joseph Smith and we know that he was a true prophet of God...and one of the ways that we know that he was a true prophet of God is that he was able to translate sacred texts written in previously undecipherable languages and produce sacred works of scripture, which we know are sacred works of scripture because they were produced by Joseph Smith, by the gift and power of God...and round and round and round we go!

@mormonstories Год назад

So brilliant.

@TheBackyardProfessor 8 месяцев назад

Yep, good ole Kerry Muhlestein.@@randyjordan5521

@juliusschwencke8157 7 месяцев назад

..can you guys do a 100 hr special, on the Shroud of Turin?

@WeeGrahamsaccount Год назад

I wonder if it might be helpful to have Brad Jersak on one of your streams he is a Christian Theology writer who I am sure could give a worthwhile reflection on the back ground to the Christology of the 18th and 19th century. He is not of the LDS and that level of detachment might be helpful. I just watched his RU-vid lecture "The Gospel in Chairs" and he has a certain gift of loving language that might help. Just a thought. Have a wonderful 2023 celebration.

@Maryfs1 Год назад

Apologists are so intellectually dishonest.

@bobkoch8335 Год назад

Thanks!

@hollayevladimiroff131 6 месяцев назад

One of the reasons I left Mormonism, they do not share this with you when you become a new member, they deceive you!!

@phrog849 Год назад

Its interesting that JS's version of Egyptian is mostly Sephardi Hebrew, words like Kolob, Kokob, Shaumayeem, etc, with some known Egyptian words like Isis and Ra thrown in, along with gibberish words like Raukeeyang and Enish-go-on-dosh. That along with the content of the BOA including the debunked Newtonian clockwork universe model points to the source being none other than the 19th century mind of JS.

@jennasorscia9044 Месяц назад

So bad. As a teen, I just believed what other believers told me. That's why my kid can believe whatever he believes but I won't let him join any religious organizations until he's old enough to use critical thinking skills.

@jenniannefer Год назад

2:04:35 Not to mention... why, in the text portion, does a single character equal an entire paragraph of translation, but in facsimile 3, it's suddenly just a name?

@Pay-It_Forward 11 месяцев назад

A 100% inspired shroom experience!

@danvogel6802 Год назад

Another great summary of the issues. Good work. John asked, why reformed Egyptian? I think it was because the Myan glyphs were compared to Egyptian hieroglyphics.

@franklinanderson9687 Год назад

Hey, do you know anything about charcoal or rock rubbings during Joseph's day. I keep thinking that if I were present I would ask Joseph, "Why didn't you take a rubbing of the engravings on the golden plates as a form of evidence?" I may be naive about it, but I've not found any talk about this idea. P.S. I don't believe Joseph had the real golden plates.

@danvogel6802 Год назад

@@randyjordan5521 I think the combination of comparing Native American spoken language to Hebrew and written language to Egyptian is reflected in 1 Nephi 1:2.

@atphoenix2020 Год назад

Love "can't put the toothpaste back in the tube

@jacobreeves3110 10 месяцев назад

John cracks me up!

@caseyjude5472 Год назад

All hail Al Gore Rhythm

@dianemorton2222 Год назад

Interesting

@zemejal 5 месяцев назад

So translation it's not really translation. Now it's an inspired revelation. In a few years they'll say that even if the BoM is not true, that the stories are inspired and invite to come unto Christ and therefore come from God.

@wormoSTEEZE 10 месяцев назад

In the name of Mike, amen 😂😂😂

@brentheltonj6308 5 месяцев назад

Now they say the scroll was inspiration and basically the book was pure revelation

@russelldoncouse9930 Год назад

While teaching Gospel Essentials I found it disturbingly suspicious at how much of the "Essentials" came from the Pearl of Great Price.

@TorqueDonkeyTeethLewith 5 месяцев назад

If you presuppose that something is true without proper evidence to back it up, there will then be no amount of evidence to change your mind to the contrary of your position.

@connormorgan6884 Год назад

30:00 42:30 59:00 1:02:26 good points 1:35:00 2:10:00

@knotskieskyramirez9491 Год назад

The truth you will know for sure in less than 100 years from now.

@elizabethmiller819 Год назад

I'm not understanding Muhlestein's argument at 2:22 - we can't assume that we know what Egyptian characters on standard funerary documents mean? Like...isn't there a whole field of study wherein they learn to read that stuff? Isn't he supposed to be IN that field? His argument that we can't understand the hieroglyphics because there is a 1000 year gap doesn't hold up from multiple fronts. 1. Aren't there other documents or monuments from both periods to compare how the symbols were used? 2. If we can't necessarily understand what ancient peoples meant in their writing because writing has changed over thousands of years, what does that say for the Bible? Sorry, we don't have any idea what the bible means because it was written too long ago and words have no meaning back then. Oops. We're going to have to throw out the BoM because language has changed since it was written. Or what about Christian religious imagery? Well.....I don't KNOW if that picture is of Jesus because it's just so old and maybe that's some other rabbi. Give me a break!!

@joediesen1 Год назад

I love Mike’s comment on faith, and how apologists twist it for the BofA. Faith is hoping for something that we can’t see. It’s not ignoring something we can see.

@thomascheney5273 Год назад

Regarding the translation of the BofA - either Joseph didn't know or he lied. Neither of those is acceptable.

@sdfotodude 8 месяцев назад

Intentional ignorance is a hell of a drug

@markh.harris9271 Год назад

Accusing the late Dr Robert Ritner of adhominem is like accusing the Saints Peter & Paul of blasphemy Gaslighting ! marcus

@logicalreasoning2544 9 месяцев назад

How about you guys? Are you following any faith now that you've left the lds church?

@markshwack1 Год назад

Not really a fan of all the alien hate going on in this episode l haha. Leave the aliens out of this! 👽 seriously though these book of Abraham episodes are 🔥

@kerryholyoak5720 Год назад

It sounds like the apologists are playing whack-a-mole with church history !

@theitineranthistorian2024 11 месяцев назад

my sister’s second husband was an academic. they went to “egypt” with nibley, early 80’s. she divorced him partly because he just wanted to make legit documentaries, getting $ from redford, not the faithful fix she was longing for.

@brentheltonj6308 5 месяцев назад

You know what else is fishy? Joseph adding himself by name in the book of Genesis!! I mean cmon

@theitineranthistorian2024 Год назад

the dishonesty is trumpian.

@AdvancedMarketingGro 11 месяцев назад

Top 10 Mormon Problems Explained... ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-4ac_fLUHiBw.html

@blarsen8 Год назад

Gee engaged in ad hominem against Robert Ritner

@rebeccatrusty7979 Год назад

LFG

@antoniocorleone3986 6 месяцев назад

This exmormons can’t leave the church alone, can’t they. I like to see them criticize the Catholic Church or the religion of Islam.

@reubenanderson4888 Год назад

So I am a practicing latter-day Saint and I’m just an average member with weaknesses and problems just like every person on this planet. You can always find those who attack others which is stupid because anybody who attacks others is very imperfect themselves. Obviously I have not seen all your stuff, but have you ever had someone on that defends the church while you are tearing it apart? I would be willing to be that person and I don’t have any PhD’s or anything in fact I didn’t even graduate college but I’d be happy to be on your show. Let me know when!

@ericpacker6240 Год назад

I don’t think you’d have a very fun time. MSP isn’t going to accept feelings guised as testimony as evidence.

@reubenanderson4888 Год назад

@@ericpacker6240It’s funny that you believe that people like me are the only ones who “have feelings guised as testimony as evidence”. You think that MSP isn’t doing the same thing? They are doing the exact same thing only with different beliefs. They are not proving anything either. Nobody can Prove or disprove anything definitively. In fact somebody can convincingly win a debate and still be dead wrong.

@ericpacker6240 Год назад

@@reubenanderson4888 that is the worst apologetic ever. I hope you never serve on a jury, because the rules of evidence would go completely over your head - reading what you just tried to explain to me. If you ever got on MSP you can bet I WOULD NOT watch that episode. I have zero interest in hearing you say over and over again, “I just know it’s true, I feel it in my heart. I know with every fiber of my being ….” Blah blah blah. Facts don’t care about your feelings. I can see by reading your response to me there is zero point in debating further with you because you count your feelings as evidence, which is scary and dangerous. You’re not a person who can see reason and admit you’re wrong. It’s simply not worth debating people like you.

@Scott23882 Год назад

@@Coalition4NewerVision comes down to who do you trust

@TheShodan92 10 месяцев назад

Hi..Yeah I see your point. It would be nice to have someone who is a firm standing member, even a GA, to put their point of view across.( I doubt any GA would want to anyway). I have watched a substantial number of MSP (I'm alittle slow sometimes so it only just dawned on me what 'MSP' stands for). I think the MSP have been honest and objective as far as possible. Given the vast experiences of the numerous people who have shared their stories, many of us can resonate at a level which is feasible. I can understand for you as an active member it can seem rather harsh, however generally I think MSP has been fair and quite balanced.

@larryfloydwimber3121 4 месяца назад

❤❤❤ Joseph Smith A Propet Sear. Translates Supervised by Jesus The Zchrist ❤❤❤😂🎉😢😮😅😊

@carlloeber 4 месяца назад

This is just into the weeds.. it doesn't matter.. to the church what matters is happiness of the individual and the family and teaching good principles that will bring you happiness. And it's about the community of the saints.. and all the other good things that they teach you in primary and that have done well for you in your life. That is what the church is. And it is all over the world. Very amazing and I have seen it in every continent except Africa cuz I haven't been there yet. 😊

@VoiceOfIrrationality 21 день назад

WHACK-A-MOLE Apologetics

@joellavergne2001 6 дней назад

Every word of God is flawless; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him. Do not add to his words, or he will rebuke you and prove you a liar. - Proverbs 30:5-6

@georgepowell7218 Год назад

Some people understand facsimile # 2, I am sorry you don't. If you want to understand it you will need to read the works of the church known as the scriptures. It is an important document but not everyone understands it, it is obscure to them.

@edjones7990 Год назад

The book is a phony

@bernardmailu5185 Год назад

After reading book of abraham i felt it makes sense and it was scripture . The lord expect us to learn as much as we can and study in our mind for him to give us a revalation. When he traslated the book of mormon from golden plates he was not refering direct from plates he receive revalation on translation. So i quess when he was traslating book of abraham i think he requested God to revealed what he want to learn from abraham and his experience and this book eas revealed through revalation.

@joyfulalways6626 Год назад

What?😢

@chf159 Год назад

All you have to do is talk to graham hancock...he will tell you that even in the face of evidence, the field of archeology is very tight knight and do not anything that contradicts their standard teachings. Of course it's not surprising modern archeologists have responded the way they have. Archeology is not a very sciemce based discipline. Even the "experts" havr alot of holes in their theories and teaching. Also, the fragments you have currently not being in modern scriptures does not invalidate anything...your assuming he translated all of the scrolls

@JH-cg8ng Год назад

All you have to do is ask Mark Sergeant, he will tell you that even in the face of evidence, the field of astrophysics is very tight knight and do not anything that contradicts their standard teachings. Of course it's not surprising modern astrophysicists have responded the way they have. Astrophysics is not a very sciemce based discipline. Even the "experts" havr a lot of holes in their theories and teachings. Also the current NASA footage not showing the earth as flat doesn't invalidate anything... your assuming that it isn't all CGI

@ehhhh765 Год назад

are you assuming he actually translated any of them?

@louhi6015 Год назад

If it were proven to your satisfaction that the BoA was a figment of Joseph Smith's imagination and therefore not true, would you believe that evidence?

@Zelph_undying Год назад

Wrong, I think the general assumption is that he translated none of it. He found a trinket for sale, let his imagination run wild and tried to make the two match.

@function0077 Год назад

You tried to make a point using Graham Hancock!?! Hahahahaha! Swing and a miss.

@Joescuderia Год назад

The Book of Abraham in the Pearl of Great Price is maybe the most badass book in our collection of Standard Works. Read the Book and leave the doubt for later you little faith nerds.