The CHARISMA CARPENTER Side Effects of JAMES MARSTERS Taking a Role in Angel  

Angel and Cordelia never truly getting their moments was an even bigger missed opportunity. They built that relationship up for almost the entire series. They had so much great chemistry too.

I agree they ruined Cordelias character in season 4, she was a well beloved character and the fans were angry about that, they could have managed Charismas pregnancy better than they did, she is not the first actrees getting pregnant in the middle of a series run. I liked season 5 but it would be better with Cordelia on it

I think Charismas pregnacy has alot to do with that, with the 4th season needing an almost entire rewrite, if you listen to her complaints about Whedon alot seems to come down to him resenting being put in that position where his vision for the show is compromised, the same as when the studio forced him to keep Spike in S2 of Buffy

S4 of Angel was pretty dire. But it was the only season I didn't like too much. S5 came back strong.

I'm pretty sure there's not a single person blaming James Marsters for Charisma being fired from Angel. Everybody knows Joss was mad at Charisma for getting pregnant.

@@craigburkey269 I'm not sure how her pregnancy would have changed that much of a storyline because all other actresses have gotten pregnant on a TV show and it didn't make for a bad thing. They didn't treat their actresses with such disdain as Joss whedon did for Charisma Carpenter It's not like charisma Carpenter was doing her own sons anyway so that's a fallacy

@@jimdigitalvideo Joss Whedon is a creep. That's all. Hollywood is filled with a lot of creeps and sexual perverts/predators. People should know that by now I have no respect for Joss whedon at all

glad she seems like not an asshole about it at least. how many actresses would act like he was the villain and did that to her personally like he wasnt just trying to get his payday.

@@dillonoickle5841 I don't know seems like a weird hypothetical of a very specific kind of situation. Like you really don't have to wonder how many other women are possibly upset over something like this. Seems very weird.

@@NichHustler man I don't have to but i did Weird huh. Wasn't even trying to shittalk women over men just always nice to hear when anyone isent a dick as its very often not the case with stuff and actors you like. And its not weird out of nowhere its literally what they talk about in this clip.

😑 THAT episode. They were murderers but Sam & Dean just let it go. Not easily but still.

@@flyingdutchman2442 well he let sam and dean go . She was gonna kill them but he saved them

She certainly did deserve better. Joss Whedon messed her about and didn’t bring her back because she got pregnant.

It ruined season 4

@@kdizzle901 Her getting pregnant ruined season 4

@@WhyRU-vidWhy that and her sleeping with Connor

@@kdizzle901 honestly the fact that she never came back was what ruined it. And Jasmine.

"Who cares" was my first thought. This is acting. None of their jobs is going to last forever.

@@Nepthu James has a son doesn't he? He also needed to make a living.

You don’t need to care, he was clearly talking about the manifestation of his own guilt which any sane person would understand & feel.

@@taraz6786 you know, when this all sounds like she has to fight for every penny because of the future of her child, I think every 'sane' person also understands that it's harder to care when we're actually talking about millionaires! She earned 4.5 mio$ alone from Angel and around 2 mio$ from Buffy! 'She has a kid' is a bit dramatic under that circumstances, it's not like her family has to live from food stamps from now on. It's normal he feels guilt over maybe costing a colleague or even a friend some salary, but 'she has a kid', come on!

@@autumnnite1803 And, I believe, he also took custody of his niece shortly before Buffy ended.

They bring spike to bring a comic relief in the show with Cordy being gone

Ew no. Cody was boring as hell.

@@WhyRU-vidWhy Who the hell is "Cody"?

@@maximusprime3459 Don't be a 'typo' nitpicker.

Yeah, I mean we got some of it in "You're Welcome" but since Cordy was there when Spike was introduced, it would have been interesting to see more interaction between them. She remembers the party-boy sociopath vampire and to get to know him with a soul would have been nice.

The Dresden Files audiobooks are read by James in his natural speaking voice. If you're a fan of Marsters you'll LOVE those audiobooks!!!

@@silbertmcg I was just going to type that... that his Dresden reading is so darn good.

Lol yea

Correct for Buffy, dead wrong for Angel which ended on its best season. Hell I even loved season 4, as uneven as it was.

@@Onigirli you're the second person to say that so I am going to have to go back and give it another chance!

@@KnightsoftheApex Season 5 is indeed fantastic

seasons 5, 6 and 7 of buffy were total trash and borderline degrading

Looking at how Warren & Caleb hated women on the show it's not to surprising how he treated CC

I had heard that as well and talked to someone who was part of the show and it was exactly that. It had nothing to do with Spike joining the cast.

@@riverviewrescue1371 - Who is Warren and Caleb?

@@HoldenNY22 it's been a long time since i watched Angel i do have seasons 1 and 2 but that's it. i didn't know any of this either i wonder if that's also why season five is pretty weak i know it pissed me off when they killed her for really no reason

@@riverviewrescue1371 you... do know these guys were villains, right? The show condemns both their worldviews verrry strongly. A far better example would be the almost rape from Seeing Red (which from what I understand came about more due to cognitive dissonance than overt misogyny, though that's not much of an excuse really)

@Vampirella Creepy 💯 Facts here

@@Christian_Ada1 Not facts. Speculation and perhaps correct speculation but not facts.

@@claytoncourtney1309 It's Facts. Every actor complained about Joss..So are they all liars now? The guy is sn anti feminist. Charisma Carpenter talked about him for years. He's a vindicate POS. Joss', wife admitted as such. So yeah 💯 FACT'S. Everyone has this odd obsession with James Marsters like he saved Angel. The ratings continued to drop hence no season 6

@@Christian_Ada1 No speculation. Actors complained about Joss, true but that does not prove that Charisma was fired for getting pregnant Joss could very well be be an anti-feminist but that does not prove that Joss fired Charisma for being pregnant. The fact that Charisma complained about Joss does not prove that she was fired for being pregnant. Joss's ex-wife saying anything is not proof that Joss fired Charisma for being pregnant. Like I said it is speculation because of all of these things but is not a fact that she got fired for being pregnant. Can I see it happening, of course I can, and would lean towards that conclusion BUT IT IS NOT A FACT.

@@claytoncourtney1309 oh it proves just that and so much more. Which is why Joss whedon got fired from Hollywood. He's no longer working for them. He got blacklisted 🤣😆😂 But yeah keep dreaming the dream there buddy

Angel 1x03 in the Dark. She threatens him with a crossbow.

Oh yeah that's when he guest starred on Angel back in season 1 I remember the episode

Yeah. That's why I thought it was weird that Cordy and Spike knew each other when Spike appeared early on the first season of Angel. Spike didn't interact with the scooby gang before getting the chip. We have to assume they met sometimes off-screen...

James Marsters is amazing in Buffyverse, SO AMAZING as Dresden. For real, I love Butcher but only listen to this series. It is everything.

As far as I'm concerned, James IS Harry, and moonlights as Spike 😌 great dude.

Exactly

Wouldn't have even been an angel period!

@@634983 uh idk about that.

Yep. The head of The WB even said as much.

@@mikesannitti6042 story lines would have been pretty boring. He definitely took the show to another level

@xenaguy01 Yeah, I have to think that Joss was looking for a reason to get rid of her anyway, so this was very convenient for him. Says a lot about Marsters' character that he felt personally guilty for what happened even though it wasn't within his control.

I thought she was out because of personality and pregnancy/ health issues, but very good points.

I heard that Charisma was getting a prima donna attitude and she wasn't honest about being pregnant until it was obvious that she was pregnant. She also said several times after Angel ended that she would like to work with Whedon again.

Funny how all of them were praising Whedon when it could help their careers. Then years later they turned around and stabbed Whedon in the back hoping the court of public opinion would jump start their now dead careers. Those few that choose to keep that garbage out of the headlines showed true strength of character. And to those who #blievewomen over evidence remember they are actors, they are paid to lie to you convincingly.

@@lordhawkeyeIn Hollywood if you lose your thunder you will pay, Justice League was the last straw for Whedon!!

@@lordhawkeye That's the game that has always been played in Hollywood.

That might've been more of a mini series.

Spike wasn't an interesting character to be honest. Riding on the coattails of Angel

i'd love to see James take Harry Dresden to the TV, he is awesome on the audio-books and i think a 2nd shot at a Dresden Files tv show using modern effects would be great :D

@@Christian_Ada1 you gotta be trolling with that comment, spike is a top 5 character in the entire Buffy verse..

There was never a spike show but there was a serious consideration for a spike movie.

Charisma was already one of the lowest-paid and she had been on the show from the start

@@HealthyObbsession Considering that Charisma Carpenter's net worth is about double that of J. August Richards, Amy Acker & Alexis Denisoff, and Acker has had quite a TV career, I'd say that Charisma wasn't the lowest paid.

@@kingrex1931 Charisma went on to be Lee Christmas' Gf, Lacy, in the blockbuster first 2 highly successful Expendables movies, that saw wide Global theatrical releases, and subsequent big physical media sales. That's the point where Her net worth went up. Nothing to do with 'Angel'.

@@Cyborganna She wasn't the lowest paid on the show though. She somehow got the idea in her head that she was the lead character and the other characters outside of David were below her. That is here she came up with being the "lowest paid actress" in TV, but she wasn't the lead, David was. Charisma and everyone else were supporting characters.

🤣

Oh god he was so great on Torchwood!

I too preferred Spike/Buffy and Angel/Cordy as couples

I just love Buffy's conversation with a returning Giles. And they both break out in gaffaws.

@@bonnielee78 Angel and cordillia? No! Lol just no..

@@bonnielee78 Yes to Spike/Buffy, no to Angel/Cordy.

The Spike/Angel relationship is the best relationship, though.

Yeah, it was stupid the way that just cancelled it. They could have done more with the show.

Pretty much. Joss seemed really annoyed when she got pregnant and I imagine the ensuing tension throughout S4 was enough for him to just drop her entirely. It made sense storywise anyway.

Well the actor who played Doyle was ill and he passed away not long after

@@HealthyObbsession His death had nothing to do with why he left the show though. It was always the plan to kill Doyle off early-on, because Joss thought the character didn’t mesh well and made the show difficult to write even though he was a popular character. Besides, Glenn Quinn (the actor that played him) died from a heroin overdose, not because he was physically ill.

Charisma Carpenter being forced out of the show can be clearly blamed on Joss Whedon being an abusive, controlling arsehole. Apparently when she got pregnant as the pregnancy advanced Whedon would make cracks about her being fat and apparently continued after she'd given birth.

@@nah....6151 That was definitely all Joss' doing. He's a creep

Literally… she ends season 3 leaving the earthly plane so they could have just brought her back after maternity leave. But no Whedon assassinated her character, put her in a coma, and then killed her off.

@@sheltondaal6425 True it was unnecessary. I think Joss even had a way out if it since he could have had Charisma return permanently in season 5 when Cordelia woke up. She could have stayed on as a direct line to "the powers that be" now closer to them than ever before. Cordelia could have been the easiest way of introducing them as characters on the show. So saying they didn't know we're to go with her anymore was kind of ridiculous lol Especially when you think of how Cordelia grows more into who Buffy was in season 1. They could have done a lot with her.

James coming aboard at best is an excuse that Joss could use to fire Charisma.

Solid point

Yeah it was probably the whole pregnancy drama and tension with Joss that led to her being dropped.

That's what Whedon said, they it was being axed, but maybe it was being axed because Charisma was out. I doubt Joss was telling him the truth about it.

@@venaev I'm not sure who you responding to but that's not a solid point Joss whedon is a complete disgusting human being an anti-feminist. Everybody talked bad about him, Sarah Michelle gellar, Charisma Carpenter, even the little girl who played Dawn on Buffy Michelle Trachtenberg. Hewasn't allowed anywhere near her by himself. He's disgusting human being and anyone who sticks up for him is a total fool

@@Caprizonica Great point The very first time years ago when I heard that charisma Carpenter was no longer going to be on the show and the reasoning was that there was no more story to tell if Cordelia I never felt it rang true because adding Fred to the show added nothing at all she wasn't interesting. The actress was okay but to me Cordelia and Angel was the show. And of course the actor who played Wesley. Gone Lauren Fred we're definitely actors that could have just dropped to keep Cordelia

I think that was actually Friends where the cast banded together to all be paid the same.

well i think he was mad she was pregnant because Charisma was suppose to be the look-at-me girl on the show sexy Cordellia but suddenly she wasn't that attraction and i think he didn't like that.

@@eolsunder I think It was more because she apparently hid her pregnancy during a break an didn't tell anyone till they started shooting again, which caused them to have to rewrite large portions of the story.

@@Ben-pd2bx easy! I wouldn't waste the budget on cgi and instead use real vampires!

@couldn't think of a username I agree she was one of the better ones

@@Ben-pd2bx what would I do? Cut pretty much any of the other characters before her. I mean Fred? Really? Nice enough and all that but come on, no comparison and then they butchered her character anyway.

@@Ben-pd2bx I agree, he def played favourites and I adore Amy Ackers. I just think the role of Fred had played out and could have been finished before Cordelia. It’s sad the way he played favourites and behaved in this way. I guess some people don’t cope well with power. You can see why SMG was ready to leave Buffy when she was. I mean yes long hours and being the star etc (the reasons previously stated) but it sounds like the work environment wasn’t always the most positive. She probably felt very ready to finish by then.

@@kczleon735 vampire have unions

Bro, Cordy and older Conor birth out a demon. They basically got rid of Cordy after she gives birth on the show

yep

spike was a soules monster the raped and kill for a 100 years. yea he would have hurt buffy

Its well known by now that Whedon is a garbage person. However, that season 6 attempted rape scene was not from him. Whedon stepped back as the day-to-day showrunner that year and Marti Noxon was promoted to the position. The idea for that scene itself also came from a woman on the writing staff, based on a personal experience of her own.

that is actually true. That was his toughest scene. It sent him to therapy.

but spike was a mass murder and rapeist but people like spike never do that yes he would that was the whole point.

@@az21bob666 Angel was a muderer. Whats your point ? Its called an arc and they ruined it.

The first 3 are good.

He does a FANTASTIC job as Dresden.

You are making a lot of unfounded assumptions here. There is no way the execs cared one way or the other if Charisma Carpenter was on the show. That is just not how networks behave. They only cared about ratings and it just so happened that the story that ruined her character and led to her departure was turning off all but the diehard audience. When it came to James Marsters, I guarantee they could not have cared less about him. It was the bankability of the character that delayed the cancelation axe. All Joss had to do was point out the online buzz about the character and the Spike related merch in online stores and the Networks was probably keen. It was also a way for WB to get back a popular character they had lost when Buffy switched networks to UPN for its final few seasons.

I doubt James would have wanted to hang around such a volatile showrunner for a whole other series.

If they wanted to cancel Angel, it must have been because the show wasn't making as much money for them. So why would they put even more money into it?

@couldn't think of a username I don't think that decision itself was egotistical. It was fair of him to ask for an earlier notice of renewal, and if it wasn't a new exec he asked about it he probably would've gotten that renewal. It's just poor luck. Joss has enough legitimate shit on him without piling on this extra nonsense.

I almost hate to pit the characters against each other this way... but IMO if they had to get rid of a character to save Cordelia (and I'm not 100% Whedon wasn't just trying to get rid of her regardless of money), I'd say Lorne. I like the character just fine, but he was sort of expendable. Cordelia IMO was not.

I don't know much about this obviously, this is all superficial speculation, but my guess would be that neither Lorne nor Fred cost as much as Cordelia. I could be wrong, but it seems like an original cast member that was on Buffy would cost more than these new people who were less known (at least to the show's target audience), so cutting any of the new people wouldn't cover whatever money was necessary to secure Spike on the show. If it really was about the money.

You're Welcome was such a good episode, one of my favourites... but ehhh Cordelia kind of lost me as soon as she came back from her trip with The Great Mighty Groo. Couldn't forgive her for never visiting Wes. That just felt so wrong

I agree!

@@noelbernabe8704 Lorne was certainly more expendable than Cordy!

@@Ben-pd2bx Whedon wrote Charisma out because she got pregnant and it pissed him off

@@okmega22 You don't know that. There is a reason they left everything concerning Cordy in limbo going in to the end of the season. Also, the plan was always to make Cordelia the big bad in S4 and have angel kill her. He might have been upset with her pregnancy, but the rest in speculation.

Yeah. I didnt like how they weakly tried to inchworm Fred into her place. Charisma/Cordy was irreplaceable.

Yeah, Charisma/Cordelia for me was amazing. David/Angel's main offset (and complement), to land and keep in place the core feel and drive of the show. Being integral to Angel as "the show" and its feel you returned to and for. I think those two set the tone, with Alexis/Wesley rounding that off and also as her counterpoint in the direction to push. Charisma/Cordelia added great personality, main chemistry, a welcoming access point for the viewer, and a great way to insert the direction to take an event in the episode/series (which I think she and Alexis/Wesley were both huge for). James/Spike was also amazing, a powerhouse, but his addition felt more like a new show, "The Adventures of Angel and Spike". Not a new chapter or book, but a different spin-off show altogether. An odd couple buddy duo. I don't think it had to be that way, because James and his Spike character are so versatile that he could have played any number of offset points to the show. But that's what role they inserted him as: the whirlwind. And maybe that's what they were going for. Cutting Charisma/Cordelia and Alexis/Wesley took out the grounding framework of the show, and setup the David/Angel and James/Spike to shift into a whole new experience. For that, they probably should have just had them cut the pre-existing cast and setting ties, and thrust them into a whole new arena (setting, world, events, big main storyline, etc.) with driving momentum and discovery of the new tone and centerpoint. Maybe something like Supernatural but with the more energy, momentum, and power that James/Spike brought and was pushing David/Angel back into.

@@maximusprime3459 While I love Fred, around Season 4 they started making her the "glue" of the group even though two seconds ago she was an unstable girl still getting her bearings on life after Pylea. It just frustrated me because both girls could have had significant roles in those last two seasons.

No it didn't. I liked Charisma Carpenter but there was an expiration date with what they could do with Cordelia Chase. I hate how they handled her character, but after season 3 I was glad to leave her behind and also grateful she got a proper send off in season 5. Frankly though, season 5 was my favorite season. As much as I enjoyed the Cordelia character in my favorite episodes, I really did not care for most of the Cordelia centric episodes or the character's main subplots. Pylea? Nope. Groosalugg? Nope. Romance with Angel? Nope. Ascending to a higher plane? Nope. Sleeping with Connor and then giving birth to Jasmine? Hell no! I think it is terrible that she was fired for getting pregnant but I think it is also not great that she initially lied about being pregnant. Season 4 was not meant to be her story and yes, Joss Whedon clearly retaliated. The season 4 we got was altered to accommodate the pregnancy and to unfairly punish Charisma for forcing them to rework the season. Lots of actresses on TV get pregnant, and sometimes there are workarounds. In this case though, and I don't mean this in a derogatory way, Charisma was unmistakably pregnant. Her face alone gave it away. Having her sit down or hide behind props or set dressing was not fooling anyone. That meant they had to write the pregnancy into the show and the best way to do that, in theory if not in practice, was to utilize it by tying it to the plot. Sorry but Charisma and Cordelia had not been integral to the show since season 1.

@@BiggestDawgEver "No it didn't. I liked Charisma Carpenter but there was an expiration date with what they could do with Cordelia Chase." Like it or hate it, people watching the show will respond to different things, in different ways. It's that ongoing struggle between staying the same or becoming something different. And what those choices mean, and how they're done, and who they're done for, etc. I agree with you that I didn't want to see Cordelia turned into some shock gimmick character doing sensational soap opera twist things. That's just her character jumping sharks, in a show and a character that weren't built being about jumping sharks. Who was that for? Or was that just done by Whedon as a way to destabilize the character, break her role and purpose in the ongoing show, and then be able to jettison her out of the show? "Sorry but Charisma and Cordelia had not been integral to the show since season 1." For most of the show, I liked her as: 1) a great personality 2) a welcoming access point for new and returning viewers 3) a great chemistry with Angel and the core cast 4) grounding the "connection to the normal world" half of the tone of the show (with Wesley grounding the "connection to the fantasy world" other half) 5) a great way to insert the direction to take an event in the episode/series I am in no way saying that the things that I like, were things that everyone else liked. Or that those others who did like (some or all of) those things had to like them in the same ways I did, or for the same reasons. Also, I was mostly a viewer who caught re-runs randomly on tv. So my experience as a viewer on that front, is gonna be different from people who watched it in different ways. But I really liked Charisma/Cordelia in the show Angel. And I missed the show with her in it. And the show it became never fully stabilized to become an aggregate something I liked as much. But tastes will vary.

Though we don't know, maybe he did take a pay cut to be able to get James... Joss seems to have been only interested in keeping the show on the air, no matter how. People seem to be quick to judge nowadays.

Josh, who's Josh. I know who Joss is but is Josh his more evil twin brother?

principles*

He asks for early renewal so he can plan the rest of the season and then he ends the season on a cliffhanger.

There was a line in Michelle Trachenberg’s rider (as a minor) that she would never be allowed to be alone with Joss. No other adult was mentioned. Definitely raises some questions…

Guys,...before we go Down the rumor mill/rabbit hole...James literally talks about these 2 things in this very interview

James addresses the interaction on this in the interview

Cordelia was there from ep 1...?

I dunno, maybe it's just me, but when I read her account of her experiences with Whedon, it tracked a little bit like how when narcissists blame everyone else for their own problematic behavior. I noticed that she seemed like a bit of a prima donna, so I wonder how much of her issues might not have ha something to do with her own entitlement. As an actor on a series, the choices you make in your personal life affect the character you portray, and she apparently made some pretty big changes without consulting anyone about them. For instance, getting her hair cut --that isn't something you do on a whim as a series regular, you need to clear that with the showrunners FIRST. The fact that she didn't was not just inconsiderate but also unprofessional. Apparently, her character had a particular story arc that could not play out because of her pregnancy, so it seems weird that she talks about getting a crappy arc out of spite, since it may have just been crappy because she fucked up a better story that they had to scrap and rewrite on short notice ti accommodate her baby bump. These are thing that are extremely disruptive to a planned production, so I get kind of the feeling that her personality might not make her the easiest actor on set to work with, and maybe she is enough like Cordelia in her own personality that acting self-absorbed isn't a real stretch. Its telling that her favorite episodes are all about HER.