In regards to the Cinderhearts, we know that under normal circumstances, making a Cinderheart isn’t possible. The Scadrians in the bunker say > “use some ***special investiture*** instead, and you get a corrupted cinderheart to make the Charred.” As y’all pointed out, The charred behave in a similar way as the Inquisitors. Showing an almost uncontrollable bloodlust and loss of personality. While at the same time, open to being controlled by someone. Could the “Special Investiture” be Ruin’s (or maybe Discord’s) investiture?
Follow up: a friend of mine posited the theory: What if Canticle was created by Harmony to siphon of his excess Ruin so he could still destroy without hurting Scadrians?!?!!?
With the comparisons to the Inquisitors I wouldn’t be surprised to learn it was just some form of hemalurgy that corrupted the sunhearts. Canticle does seem more like an Autonomy planet than a Harmony/Discord one though.
My guess while reading is that they add midnight Aether to the sunheart to get a cinder heart. That’s why they can be controlled (to a degree). I could see Scadrians classifying Aether as “special investiture” as it does not come from a shard?
I don't know if Brandon is a big fan of 4X-style video games, like Civilization, but I suspect he might be. Explore, Expand, Exploit, Exterminate would be an interesting set of commands for dawnshards
Not to ruin your theory, but we already know that one is basically *change.* I think the dawnshards are probably create, maintain, change, and consume.
@@nroke1684 "basically" leaves some leeway though, I could see something like "expand" being very similar to change (although for the record I think it's unlikely Brandon would use the actual 4x words as the dawnshard commands, I was just thinking of them as similar principles)
Worth noting that part of the reason these Threnodites settled here was that dying to the sun and making a Sunheart prevents the creation of a shade, so they still have to try and die to the sun so the planet doesn't get overrun with shades.
I was thinking the same thing, without the need to constantly sacrifice people every time the sunhearts die their population would grow and they would get a new sunheart whenever someone old/sick decided to go into the sun rather than risk becoming a shade. The real risk is because they're not constantly culling people the shade growth would be increasing as well and in the long one will this planet also end up full of shades.
The sunhearts are acting like resistors in an elecrical circuit as opposed to gemhearts that act more as a capacitor in a circuit. But that's still not a fair comparison because the planet is so unique. The flow of electrical current would be the investiture from the sun. This investiture is acting different on this planet because the investiture is being drawn to the core by some unnatural/supernatural force. I don't think sunhearts would necessarily behave the same on other planets as they do on canticle, it's just that the sun and the core form this circuit-like situation. (I wonder how gemhearts would behave.) It seems like the flow of investiture from the sun to core is trying to take the investiture of the Threnodites with it. They are not fully native to this land, so their souls resist this flow and form charged objects, which do not recharge because it is not living. The person's soul does not stay with the gemheart and it does not go to the core-it goes to the chorus. What is left is a vessel that can potentially hold Threnodite warmth and potentially hold investiture from the sun. Those are not the same kind of investiture, the sunheart is simply compatible with both. So, when the sunhearts are charged with warmth, it can then resist the sun's investiture again and recharge. They simply never had the time and opportunity to try this due to constant eminent looming death. This theory also explains why there used to be people who could walk the surface of the planet in the sun. They simply let the investiture flow through them and did not resist it. Those people were supercharged with investiture when it was present, but had to let it go like a Buddhist.
Back when I studied computer science, we used to get rubber ducks from companies and we "consulted" them in our coding tasks. We called them our demoducks. There even was a local tech company that had a huge black duck on the roof of their building as their mascot. E. I actually looked it up, and it seems "Rubber duck debugging" is an actual term in the field. Who knew.
"How do you use a dawnshard intended to do no harm as a weapon" I have a proposal for this. Twice in recent books, it's been implied that Adonalsium was willing to be shattered, or even wanted it. Perhaps that provided a loophole for the "no harm" dawnshard to be used to shatter it, in the same way that a scalpel is a surgical tool rather than a weapon (usually). That wouldn't really explain why the Night Brigade wants it, admittedly.
Pertaining to Hoid’s ability to skip, the vibe I got from that WOB is that Hoid can’t skip *yet* as in it’s not something he’s figured out yet, but he potentially could do it.
Plus Sigzil obviously couldn't either at the time since he wasn't a Dawnshard yet. Likely nobody could until it was discovered later in maybe Era 3 or 4
They say "home is where your heart is". Not only did Zellion fight for and save the lives of the Beaconists, he also grew attached to them and, in turn, they named him and accepted him as one of their own. It makes perfect sense to me that that would lead to Canticle becoming a second homeworld to Zellion, even outside Dawnshard shenanigans.
My thought on Zellion becoming Connected to Canticle has a lot to do with the population being from Threnody. We know that there are (or at least were) some kind of "requirements and traditions" that Nazh talks about before they can become Shades. I think the ceremony Zellion took part in could be at least tangentially related to those requirements and traditions to become a Shade and therefore has a profound impact on Zellion's soul. Add into that the Dawnshard weirdness and it makes sense to me how seemingly easy it was for him to become Connected to the planet.
1:20:40 Brandon said at the time of stormlight front half and W&W Hoid couldn't skip, but Sigzil couldn't either yet, since he wasn't a Dawnshard. Maybe it's Era 3 or Era 4 tech
pretty sure there's a wob somewhere about leaving gemstones out in the sunlight, as long as it doesn't melt it will be weakly filled. 44:00 so the Rosharan sun heart being weak makes sense to me
I think of savantism like erosion. You start out with small pathways through which investiture can flow, but over time with extensive use those pathways widen to allow more investiture through which grants you access to more powers.
29:43 The question on why they need the locals, isn’t that explained by the need to have some sort of connection to Canticle? Just like why Nomad couldn’t share heat until he became Zellion?
The Rosharan “heart” is small and weak because it didn’t have any Connection to the planet so when it was formed it wasn’t supercharged by the sun’s investiture. I think if that Thaylen had had the same ritual Sig got later the “heart” would have been indistinguishable (or near to it) from a native Sunheart.
One comment I didn't hear in the discussion but which I'm sure has been theorized about before: I notice that Preservation's inability to do harm is really similar to Hoid and Sigzil's inability to hurt people after holding the Dawnshard. So on the theory that each of the Dawnshards is associated with four of the Shards, I think we're supposed to make that connection - that Preservation is one of the four associated with this Dawnshard, almost like this Dawnshard is a super-Preservation. Similar idea for the other Dawnshard we know about - Change seems to naturally encompass Ruin and Cultivation (I thought there was a WOB that Ruin and Cultivation would combine more naturally than Ruin and Preservation, but I can't find it). I like the idea of a Harmony-esque opposition between the Dawnshards, where Change is complementary to the Command of the super-Preservation Dawnshard. Kind of reminds me of the four Western "cardinal virtues" where in some explanations, Courage complements Temperance, while Prudence complements Justice.
I've got an impression in first 40 minutes that you are discussing under the assumption locals from Canticle (aka "We escaped from Threnody", so like idk how much they can be called "Canticle native") can't put some of their heat into an empty sunheart, and then there was a moment when you were talking about there not being much empty sunhearts around, and from the book I took it that it is possible for a Canticle person to put heat into an empty sunheart, and in the Reliquary Nomad mentions spotting a rack on a wall, with around 75 empty sunhearts is how I remember it, so it feels like they store their ancestors, both the ghostjar and the stonesrack. Also... Here's my crazy theory: Virtuosity splintered herself, and we see cyan and magenta on Komashi, and there is some wobbliness about whether there is or isn't, should or shouldn't be a third color, but if there were it'll be yellow, right? Canticle's sunhearts are obviously much more in the orangish-red place than anything yellow, but maybe that's what either sun or core of Canticle is? Would be weird to find a splinter of Virtuosity this, theoretically, far from Komashi, and sunhearts energy being orange at best if not red also is an argument against...
To me, Canticle feels like a planet of either Ruin or Whimsy. Ruin because it has a lot of the classic red and it is constantly destroyed and rebuilt, but Whimsy because it’s so unpredictable in size and gravity and landscape but also because there was an entire conversation focused on wishing that they could just live in a place full of whimsy.
Why are we worried about how Elegy talks but not how she does, you know, all of the other stuff that she does? Like, the answer is obviously "magic" for all of it!
Regarding Kaladin and his Windspren Shardplate, maybe a piece of his Spiritual self becomes Windspren or something like that and that's how the spren are always around him/Knights Radiant.
I wonder if the need for some resistance to recharge a sunheart is something similar to Kelsier needing to coat himself in Dor before becoming Preservation
surprised there's not much about the intent of the investiture here. I thought it was great to see how ambitions intent is actually interpreted in the book and how it seems to include the concept of hope.
Forgive me for being late to the party having just finished sunlit man but here's a theory on "special investiture" We know from Rhythm of War that there are ways to mix different types of investiture to create new hybrid investitures. We also know that there are many different states of investiture. We see in Rhythm of War that to create these hybrid investitures requires process that are akin to conducting a chemical reaction in a lab (mixed with Intent). The knowledge of how to make hybrid lights had eluded both humans and singers for thousands of years and even the Thaylens were very secretive about their techniques to manipulate even just stormlight. It stands to reason that you could theoretically make different types of hybrid investiture, including not just mixing 2 types of investiture. You could theoretically mix 3, 4, 5...16. This works out to 65'535 unique types of investiture that could possibly exist (plus an accompanying 65'535 types of anti-investirute). Based on how long it took people to figure out just mixing 2 types in the same state (light) on the same planet then it seems clear the process to make another arbitrary type of hybrid investiture would be very difficult and a closely guarded secret. Even knowledge that a new type of hybrid investiture had be stabilized in any way would likely be top secret information. For example, imagine you wanted to combine cultivation, honor, and endowment investiture. One could imagine first creating towerlight then trapping that in an awakened gemstone. One could also imagine a million reasons why this would not work or have complications. So perhaps instead you use lifelight to first manifest something like the vines cultivation spren leave, then awaken that to stabalize the crystals that are left behind, and take that into a highstorm while singing the proper tones. Again, you could imagine a million reasons this wouldn't work either. My point is it seems likely that Rosharan, Scadrian, and Silverlight scholars alike are all performing many experiments and scientific inquiries along these lines and are absolutely not willing to share their findings freely. To me this is reinforced when Nomad removes Elegy's investiture - you can read it as removing whatever foreign investiture was used to make the cinderheart (maybe some Ruin mixture with the comparison to Kolos?) and leaving just Canticle's (Ambition's?) investiture. All that is to say, I personally think "proprietary investiture" is very much on the right track but may be far more complicated than it first seems.
I don't think I've seen someone else mention this yet: yes, Nomad does leave behind the Thaylen sunheart (sorry Argent, it's just easier to call it a sunheart). He ties the investiture to the shield/cover he made with Aux, because it needed extra investiture to stay that long. As he leaves he places the sunheart with the "umbrella" of sorts and whispers that he hopes it's enough investiture to last throughout the day. (It's a similar thing in my mind where Shallan "ties" illusions to spheres and they last as long as there is Stormlight in the gemstone.)
No, I think that was the sunheart the Scadrians recharged. Edit: Yep, “No,” he said, then tapped the sunheart embedded into it. “It needs Investiture on a grand scale. This is a superpowered sunheart, recharged by the people inside the Refuge.” Excerpt From The Sunlit Man Brandon Sanderson This material may be protected by copyright.
2:01:00 Pacify Iike the idea that they would need a way to make sure god doesn't kill them. I could imagine them tricking or forcing the dawnshard on them. Or maybe the dawnshard can also be used to pacify others. It does also have the ability to escape to other planets after being given to someone. Maybe the plan was to give the dawnshard to adonalsium then get the heck out of there so he couldnt do something to them.
Ok, wild idea, maybe the dawnshard that hoid and sig held is different to the one that hoid used during the shattering. Maybe each give different powers? It would explain how hoid only just got access to skipping, though considering the ending of Yumi I don’t think he can skip.
I believe that was explained in Dawnshard. They are Adonalsium's Commands. They are what Adonalsium used to create the Cosmere. Later the were used by the group to destroy and break apart Adonalsium into the Shards.
The Cinder King said that the cinder hearts increase the persons devotion to him. My head canon is that some modified AonDor that has a tilt towards Devotion is how to corrupt the sunhearts to make cinderhearts. Also I visualize the sunhearts being charged sort of like a pipe. When its empty the sun energy flows in and out real easy. When its partially charged, its like having a block in the pipe then stops the energy from flowing through and it builds up pressure inside.
This dawnshard must be empathy or sympathy, something that connects you to people of all places, and makes you not want to hurt someone else the same way you wouldn't hurt yourself. It might link you to other people so you see them as an extension of yourself.
1:41:16 Its always been my assumption that the dawnshards were used in the shattering of Adonalsium and that, in the moment of its death, there was a backlash of power onto the dawnshards, as Adonalsium's tools of creation, that created the Torments. So following this assumption I've thought Hoid immediately following Adonalsium's shattering could no longer harm/kill. More tinfoily: the backlash was not meant to be a punishment, but rather was an imbuing of the dawnshards with Adonalsium's own direct investiture released on shattering and now the dawnshards pressure their bearers to carry out each of their intents subconsciously, similarly to how shardic pressure overrides the bearers own personality in time. The naming "torment" could therefore be just the bearers' own negative feelings about being forced or prevented to act in certain ways.
33:09 did I get this wrong when reading? The way I understood how to recharge an empty sun heart was that they just give a bit of their heat to an empty one (which was done with the ritual prayer mentioned several times in the book) then just left the sunheart out to recharge. And sharing of a little heat to my understanding was never permanent. (Though that’s just my understanding, nothing I can point to that confirms this)
Hey all, I’ve had a few thoughts. First, I think this is maybe what you all were saying, but I suspect that the reason Nomad broke his oaths were because he basically had the dawns hard forced on him, he wasn’t prepared for it, and it changed who he was basically no longer letting him keep his oaths, even if he may have wanted to. He was changed, that is to say, not the same person who made the oaths and therefore not able to keep the oaths. I think that stays in line with the books. On another note. If investiture and anti-investiture annihilate each other leaving just a release of energy. And if one were to create a perfectly equal amount of anti investiture of each type, such that they could perfectly annihilate all investiture in existence everywhere. So the laws of the Cosmere indicate that the investiture will slowly come back over time? Or would you just be left with our universe at the end?
Did i miss it / did you guys not mention the whimsy reference? Sure, it was lower case w. But it followed ellipses. I believe it was when sigzil was telling contemplation the story with no moral.
Curious to think. When signal was a lead person in command and lost friends. Was this due to what is coming? He was in command and the people he was overseeing. Changed when the dual in SL5 happens. And that's why he broke his oaths
On the subject of Nomads new name. I bet the dawnshard stripped away his connection to Roshar which left a vacant spot in his spirit web that the Threnodites found a way to fill in. He's tricked his connection into thinking he is now a native Canticlite. (Canticlean?)
I will say, I suspect that the dawnshards have names in the same way that anything else that is primordial has a name. If Dawnshards are an ancient thing that date back to the creation of the universe and perhaps predate god (adonalsium) itself, it seems like people would struggle to truly name something like that. In light of that though, I think Hoid/Sig's dawnshard was probably something like "Peace"
I've been wondering if Dawnshards somehow align with attributes of God: Omnipresence (connectedb to everywhere), Omniscience, Omnipotence, and .... this is where I run out of idea juice.
maby the special investiture is called that because it is dor that has ben tuned into pure devotion investiture theres a quote from the cinder king when he says that the chards minds and souls are burned away and replaced by "devotion" to only him
I am not as up to date on Cosmere lore as a lot of other people, but don’t we know that one of the Dawnshards is different from the other three? What if that is the one Sigzil/Hoid have and that is why their Weapon to destroy Adonalsium is actually opposed to violence, kind of what is being talked about at around the two hour mark of this video. Perhaps Hoid helped as a shield to kill Adonalsium and everybody else got a Shard while he got shafted and did a bunch of work and didn’t get anything. Wouldn’t he feel resentful and would his Pokémoning of all the different types of investiture be his way of trying to become powerful enough to rival his old allies?
Din´t the Cinder king have this singed edges on his clothes that kept burning constantly? (Which to me is a clear reference to DS3 which Brandon likes) but also Spook when he scaped the fires in MB3 he also had this look Could the Scadrians have just given him like this special clothes that permanently burn who might be some sort of religious symbol for Lord Mistborn?
But, I believe. Hold held the dawnshard prior. As he couldn't harm kelsier in mistborn era 1. But found he could for some reason. Which is probably what signal has now. I do t believe he held it during SL.
Do Threnodites have some kind of Dual or Split Soul ? Shadesmar part-of-soul anchoring the other part-of-soul to the physical body. When they die the two halves snap together in limbo ending up as shades in the physical realm ( they cant fully enter Shadesmar either probably an even worse shade in shadesmar ).
@17thShard nothing to be sorry about. I just got back from a convention so my days were already a bit jumbled, then I saw this posted and legitimately had to check the date. It just worked out that way.
I wonder why noone "lost" a partially used sunheart like a bike crash and recovered the remains afterwards and didnt realise it got fully charged ? Resistors should work no matter how much resistance is left-over to "burn" them up during the sun. And following that very easy accidental discovery the whole story here is redundant. I think the planet core sucking up investiture from the sun and super-charging it is the more interesting part and not this "recharge" your almost-empty batteries using sunlight ... which is just using a solar panel on a battery pack.... simple enough energy storage from an abundant energy source .... I really wonder about those tall mountain peaks and I really thought BrandoSando was going for ... the entire planet is a Solar Concentration Farm ... the mountains are the mirrors that are focusing the sunlight and sweeping over the ground ... and the core is some "god" or "entity" sucking in the energy through the soil feeding itself from that intense sunray sweeping around the planet ( kind of like a knockoff stormfather / everstorm ) ... and the Cthulu entity will emerge someday fully grown and satiated ? or fully grown and super hungry to consume the entire system ... etc etc ....
