With enough socialism the west will succumb for the commie fascists In 1930s the argentinian worker was richer than an american one and now they are the south venezuela a country that itself was rich in the early past We don't have an edge anymore due socialism
I think you're reading too much into things. Yes, the Chinese do appear to be making reliable engines which are rough analogues to US-UK-Fr-Ru Cold War era designs. But they don't have a single new generation engine design in operation - and they might not get one within the next five years (although they are trying really hard to achieve that Made in China 2025 goal). Also, as China narrows the gap they will have to do more groundbreaking research - and that is way harder than trying to recreate in full what others have already published. Yes, there isn't free information available that tells them how to go about the required material science. But the general process is available. It's common knowledge (and has been for 20 years or more) that the single crystal superalloys are typically Ni3Al based. And it is common knowledge that low levels of ruthenium, rhenium, and/or tantalum improves their performance under hot conditions. It's also common knowledge that you have to control oxide growth, and that the thermal barriers used as the top coat is often yttrium based. For the past 30 years, the Chinese were able to conduct their research knowing all of this from the start. They only needed to learn *how* to apply this knowledge. In the coming decades, when China is roughly on parity, they will have to do all of their research completely in the dark. They aren't going to be able to continue at this rate. Again, they don't have a single modern design in operation. Because they don't know what to research in order to make one. It's a lot harder when you're starting with nothing.
Any country that lags behind does this, so is China Step 1: Buy foreign stuff Step 2: See how it works Step 3: Reproduce 1:1 copy Step 4: When proficient enough try to improve it Step 5: Make your own stuff with the knowledge you acquired Step 6: Profit
Now the world does that to China across many sectors. But it's very hard to get past step 4 due to China's ideologically motivated system of internal IP sharing.
@@shanerooney7288 "The West has no hope at stopping the rise of China" - What is there to stop? They are on the edge of demographic collapse and their provincial governments are tied to a housing bubble.
@@shanerooney7288 The fact is that there's a difference between predicting a fall, and looking at the facts and seeing no way out. Their one child policy gave them a productive but small work force that will need to support for the larger ageing population. All these skilled engineers and scientists, they can't be busy having kids or else China doesn't develop. And it spirals from there.
America solely relies on the genius minds of immigrants to develop and improve their infrastructure and their military hardware whether they give them the due credit or not it doesn't matter. What actually is true tho is that the school system in the US is horrible and focus on subjects like Mathematics and Science is low and high priority is given to "Gender and Health studies" and more on sports or extra curricular activities the school offers.
@@rabbitclimbmountain Hardly. The USA still pumps out more high quality engineers than China does. Unfortunately for China their school system educates their students in such a way that they pass prescribed tests very well. Once they arrive in the real world they fail miserably. This is a major reason Chinese engine technology lags behind the West by over thirty years. The best they can do is make an equivalent to the GE F110 but without the quality of design and manufacturing. Does the West underestimate China? No. Does China overestimate itself? Most definitely.
@Mico Hans America is very capable, but America has lost its way. And now it is unable to cultivate these talents at scale domestically, so this is what happens.
@@Praetorian157A cheif engineers or the founder of (1)JPL (2) first commercial plane of boeing (3)f-14 jet fighter (4) miniuteman iii are all chinese....
@@trikush3627 In fact, US worried much that such talented person as Qian Xuesen will bring advancement in China and trying hard to prevent him to return back to China.
I was an aero engine technician for the Canadian Air Force in the 1970's, and the single thing you focused on when starting was the turbine temperatures.
The speaker assumes that China could only copy. However if the making of turbine blade involves many manufacturing know how that are considered top secrets by both US and Russia and are unavailable to anyone outside, the Chinese must have figured the secrets out by themselves. The research of the Chinese WS engine series was set up in the early 1990’s. So it took them almost twenty years to complete the development. No technological gap can be maintained forever.
@@jthunders he merely stating that as speculationLMFAO. the whole turbofan development of china had been bugged by metallurgy rather than anyhting else. They sorted it out 6 years ago, which paved way for the ws-10 to replace all al31 turbofan in j11, j16, j10 and j20.
@@Mianhe Credit what to China? WW2 technology? Are you mental. Yes the Germans asked the enemy who basically lived in mud huts and were starving. “Please help us design a jet engine”. You can barely make the balls for a bic ink pen. Who are you kidding.
Engine technology is very complicated and it doesn't matter how smart is your people, it's need time to solve very complex problems. The only way to gain time is buy or still it, which is an speciality of them.
The US air force and navy flies and sails near the Chinese coastlines often and the US calls China a military threat at the same time. The Chinese say, ok, we'll not disappoint and be a worthy rival you wanted. LOL.
@@inyourphace1690 no probably simply the ranting of one of the graduates of the dumbed down deficient education system of a nation brainwashed by the "we LIE, we CHEAT, we STEAL" administration unable to use internet applications to expand the limited scope of knowledge about the world...hopefully we can fix this deficiency with re-education, improved physical infrastructure and a renewed focus in science & technology....and become more capable of competing on the global market.
Generally, when it comes to China catching up with Western technological superiority, it was never a question of "IF" in the first place. Since the beginning, it was only a question of "WHEN". The West is too arrogant to stop looking down at Asians, too proud to learn from underestimating the Japanese before.
@@jthunders Arabs have nothing to do with the invention of zero or the decimal system, go and educate yourself if you do not want to end up in gulag... ;)
It's not a question of IF, but WHEN will Africans will become the most innovative, intelligent genetic cluster of humans and take us to the st- *bursts out in laughter*
So, after 30 years, almost my entire lifespan, we finally have a new super power in the mix. We just kept underestimating the Chinese over and over again, and now here we are.
It was very clear to me that the USA, especially, kept underestimating its rivals, notably Russia and China. Fanboys kept saying "yes, they have X, but we are better in Y", not realizing that the Y list grew thinner every year. You know, I'm French. We used to be a big kid on the block, and now we sell Louis Vuitton bags.
@@chahineyalla4838 I think that's true in the public sphere but of course that isn't really where these matters are affected. Realistically, what was ever to be done? The Chinese are determined to gain something like parity and are willing to put as much resource into it as necessary. Even without industrial espionage, they might have independently created similar solutions or indeed different but valid solutions to the same engineering challenges. Now the questions are, will they likely to pull equal to the US and allies? Do we want to prevent this? Do we have some means of accomplishing this? Personally I think that it is inevitable unless we start altering our diplomacy; making alliances to create a sufficient counter to the resources and population of China, and fomenting independence movements within China to drain resources and political attention.
@@michaelkeller5008 There is so much wrong with what you have written that I hardly know where to begin. That said, I'm simply going to point out that Japan had invaded and annexed Manchuria and Korea by 1937. The US had pushed nobody into a corner; we refused to sell them oil. A meager gesture at that. The reason the Japanese attacked us was that their geopolitical ambitions would not tolerate a military power to rival their own on the pacific edge of Asia. Leading with "the US backed Japan into a corner" is objectively false, and a superb red flag for the value of your analysis.
@@unclejoeoakland I think that one of the major factors in the West's ability to compete with China is industrial capacity. It seems quite obvious to me that out of two economically equal adversaries, the one with the factories is likely to prevail over the one with the banks in an all-out, world war-type conflict. China has grown powerful by attracting investment and growing its industrial base. It was probably a bad idea to organize this power and technology transfer in the first place, but not trying to revert it now that the writing is on the wall is beyond foolish.
Ukraine was producing turbine blades for ussr. When I was in university ussr already had monocrystal blades technology. Chinese acquired motosych to get the engine technology. Now the deal is vetoed and gors to the court.
I also think, if the chinese can do now the full package, these comes from motosych. Well, blades is just one part. Of course a difficult part, but just one. I know, that Rolls Rolls and Pratt & Whitney for a long time bought blades from germany. Because they could not build the blades in that quality.
Motor Sich stake held by the Chinese through acquisition was confiscated by Ukraine govt, under US pressure. But China will not need Ukraine anymore now except for agricultural produce.
Thanks for your insights. You provide valuable information (not available elsewhere) to those of us who are interested in the engineering aspects of military aviation.
I think that the myths that “China can’t innovate” or “made in China is inferior” have been BENEFICIAL to China so far because it allowed China to keep developing under the radar. Despite the pervasiveness of this belief, China has been doing extremely well and it did not hinder China’s development at all.
China is the world leader in my field. Has been for some time. They are in many other fields now. The point I woke up was the growth of DJI; now by far the largest and highest quality manufacturer of consumer level UAVs. And I think your problem runs deeper in Western culture. It's not just limited to industry. And the negative views of China are definitely rooted in a kind of subconscious racism/white supremacy. For example, there's still many military analysts who say that only now China can defeat Western forces in their region. Yet China did precisely that not only in Korea in the 1950s, but through the effective suppression of KMT stay behind operations that were burning their crops and sabotaging their economy right through to the early 1960s.
@@happyculater2923 It wont be as rapid, but they used the stolen technology to catch up and educate their population. Rip the west, while it is discussing, weather we should say he she they them or whatever and work part time, taking drugs and drinking themselves to stupidity. It so fuking obnoxious. Culture does neither value entrepreneurship, nor getting a good education, trying to make something innovative happen.
I read some chinese media and according to them, Chinese had employed many Russian aviation engineers and scientist after disintegration of the Soviet Union. They also employed thousands of Ukraine engineers for the past 10 years. Chinese aviation companies also joint ventured with French companies in development of helicopters and engines. Few years ago, I heard they bought some old patent from Japanese Mitsubishi for ship diesel engine. China also focus in the development of turbofan engine technology especially the material science field for the past decade. I believe all these effort added up to the catching up in turbofan and related engine technology.
Great video. And the Ceramic matrix composites (CMC) are future... this is why GE engines have so effective combustion. it's just a matter of time for Chines... I know from my practice, dozens of mechanical designers are working on projects. But not so in China. they do not count the numbers of designers, but the numbers of buildings that are up to the roof full of designers. I would also mention CFD tools.
You sir, are a very underrated source of avionic information. Your graphics are top notch and you inform us in a way that is understandable to the layman.
Well USA have being using international student for their progress anyway, there is not such a thing as one country people creating all new technologies.
Gravity, aerodynamics, human capabilities, velocity, metallurgy, stress and everything else that effects or causes, prohibits or improves anything made by people doesn't change from one country to another. Gravity, energy, mass, propulsion, speed and how various elements interact and react doesn't differ in China, Malawi, Latvia or Canada or anywhere else, so because the same issues and factors and science is the same all around the world, then surely it follows that Chinese engineers, technicians, researchers, scientists will find a similar solution or design that Belgian or Greek or Australian or Egyptian or Brazilian or American engineers, technicians, researchers and scientists. The same methods, techniques, formula's, solutions and processes are employed by people involved in aerospace, aviation engineering, aerodynamics, aero propulsion etc regardless of where they come from. My point is, just like all bicycles have very similar frames, wheels, pedals etc, and just like all trousers, jeans and pants are all very alike. And just as every bridge, house, car, rifle, motorcycle helmet, pair of swimming goggles, gloves and laptops etc etc etc etc are usually based on very similar designs and layouts and formats, then it's not really surprising that Chinese weapons and military equipment is similar and sometimes almost identical to other countries designs. Aircraft experts agree that the j J-20 is not a copy of the F-22, regardless of what some people want to believe, and only laymen and casual observers will think that the J-20 is a copy of an American design. Just as the airliners of the world are hard for a casual layperson to distinguish, pilots, ground support crew, aviation enthusiasts and anyone involved in the building and maintenance of airliners can usually recognise individual models of different modern airliners. My comment might be slightly convoluted but I'm hoping to explain why most products are based on visually quite similar designs, there are reasons for that.
The metallurgy and material science of turbine fans is a field that is still more Art than Science. There are so many variable, unknowns, and lack of margins that developing high performance turbine blades is closer to trial and error than simply applying a few formulas. More often than not, the science serves to explain why something works, rather than serve as a detailed roadmap. Science and experience (with a bit of intuition) mainly serves to provide a hint at avenues for experimentation. Chinese scientists and engineers are not stupid. What they lack is the experience and all the cumulated data from decades of successes AND failures.
I 've read an article about development of jet engines for the competition between YF-22 and YF-23 at that time. It talk about something like ceramic composite material for the rotor blades for the competitors. Very hard to recall my memory from the past 30 years.
We were always taught since younger age that "Never to Under Estimate your opponents". But it seems that in the Real Society we live in, we kept under estimate others, look down on others and at the same time kept hypnotized ourselves that we are the best in everything. Here we spent 100 billions and only 25 billions actually goes to the whatever projects/program and other countries like China they spent 30 billions and all 30 billions plus a few dollars more went into their projects. What do we suppose will happen in 20 years even we are 20 years ahead of them?
Well, thats damn strong words "...precison mechanics of a swiss watch, (all) while bearing the load of a bulldozer!" of an analogy. Striked me hard there as I paused the vid for a/or-few (silent) minute(s) of fondering. Well, thoughts 🌹
The WS-10 is derived from the CFM56. China purchased several cores during the 80s for research. It likely shares more design DNA with the F110 than AL31.
This is true. I remember there was a engine producer who had been hacked by supposed Chinese hacking group. I don’t think that this is a breakthrough. Just the mere fact the Chinese resort to hacking means they are at a disadvantage in original thought at least in Jet Engines technology. It doesn’t mean the US should stay still and sit back and relax but threat assessment should be accurate so that (battle) plans are accurate too.
That's true. AL31 was taken apart and reverse engineered, to some degree of success but not too succeful. There was some gossip that later China invested a large amount of money to a variant of the AL31's development and shared in the result. But as the Chinese alwaysdo and say: Walk on twain legs. The WAS 10 series has been originally deigned for the J-10, which first entered service in 1990s (but was powered with AL31), later when China becomes sufficiently developed in their own enginesk, they switch to home-made ones. You'll see that on Y-20 shortly, and also on C919 etc.
Everyone needs to watch a little documentary here on RU-vid called: The Engines that came in from the Cold. This might explain why the Chinese engines can suddenly run hotter and last longer doing it. I suspect the Chinese built a special steel mill. Or I could be completely wrong, not the first time.
Copy an engine is nothing like copy a gun or a tank, it takes not only the ablility to fully appreciate the whole mechanism of the engineering, but also the ability to fully develop a far better version independently! In other words, it is just a matter of time for china to catch up with american or russian engines, and it surprises no one if J20 can perform a hypersonic cruise in a near future, or maybe, NOW!
Yeah, if it was reverse engineered that means it was stolen from the U.S. in the first place through illegal espionage because they weren’t intelligent enough to design it themselves.
@@Choop4fun Espionage was not in first place. First place was official and not official purchases, like with China now. Many things was officially buyed from USA. Ford officially builded steelworks and automobile factories in USSR. Were released Ford trucks. USSR officially purchased Christie tank and then its has evolved to T-34...
Man... your channel is amazing to people who want to learn more about military aviation and engineering nowadays... You could do a more in depth video on the calculations and logic behind some of the stuff, i think that is something that lacks on youtube unfortunately ( but anyways, congrats on the channel, its top quality content, and its also filled with funny parts, love the sense of humor ) Besides, ill try to remind myself to support you on patreon or subscribestar this coming june.
Incorrect! WS-10 was initiated from reverse-engineering CFM56 but not AL31. In addition, the supplemental material science is one of the most difficult part and cant be reversable.
Great video as always! What about making a video to explain the jet engine and the inertia related issues in terms of packaging and dynamic behaviour? I think it's a tough thing managing this high-speed rotating beast..
Well I know that Iranians tried to copy the RD33, but it didn't work well, they upsized it and the weight gain out matched the durability, they down sized it and lost both trust and durability, eventually ended up with a high bypass turbo fan that could only power a medium cruise missile... then we stopped hearing even from that after a while... power plants are difficult engineering products, and it's not just jet engines, even a decent combustion engine takes some deep know how to develope and put into production...
tht is Iran, not China, big difference. And the point is that they _have_ done it somehow, so Iran's failure is hardly relevant, except to highlight how right China got it.
ws-10 is actually derived from the CFM56 series....the problem that bugged their development was due to metallurgy.............which they resolved 5-6 years ago.
Short sighted planning. Quarterly bonuses which are given higher priority than the long term health of the companies. Frequent management shuffling between companies. Self defeating deals are pretty common because of this.
I studied gas turbines many years ago and it was nearly all described with lots of Maths. Both the fluid dynamics/ thermodynamics and the material science(Stress and Strains/ finite element analysis.etc etc. Guess what the Chinese are real good at besides business?
Sheep lord the poms sold their RollsRoyce Avon jet engines to the Russians, who promptly reverse engineered them and used the design in their Migs. That must have cost the lives of more than a few US pilots in Korea a few years later .
@@EroticOnion23 lol European gunpowder was almost nothing like Chinese gunpowder. And honestly that kind of shows an L for the Chinese. Failed to innovate and got conquered with something that was discovered there. Kind of stupid tbh.
ws-10 is *not* a copy of al-31. Totally wrong there. al-41 reverse engineering is totally a wishful thinking on your part, too. China is invested on their engines for the last 4 decades. You think there will be no fruits of this. ?!?! :)
I’m guessing it’s the material high temperature strength. which is a trade secret. One can cut open a blade and see the structure under microscope. It would take years to figure out how to achieve that structure and millions or billions of dollars. This kind of research is not sexy in computer age, but still highly valuable.
Back in the mid 2000's we had Chinese turbine blade castings for some RR work we were doing and the castings they supplied were awful. I bet they've since improved the quality.
China spent 100 million pounds in 1979 to purchase tech transfer of RR turbofan Spey Mk 202, the 1st jet engine in the world to reach MTBO of 10000 hours (engine service life is 20000 hours). However, the necessary equipment required to produce the engine was not part of the deal, because they were not made by RR, just like microchips makers do not make equipment making the chips, so China had to develop all the equipment itself, which took 3 decades. It was not until finally in early 2010s, when the Chinese licensed copy of Spey Mk 202, the WS-9, finally reached the same level of British engine. Although tech transfer shows the exact step by step instructions on how to build the engine, without the proper equipment, you still cannot make any despite knowing exactly how.
Can you plz do a more detailed video reviewing various chinese fighter jet engines with some comparisons to US / European engines, to the extent possible
It was the failure of the fan blades on the Rolls Royce RB211 that was destined for the Lockheed L1011 wide body that sent RR broke if I'm not mistaken.
"China has more people with an IQ over 120 than we have people." We figured out how to solve a lot of problems, why couldn't they? They even have the benefit of solving many of their problems 2nd after other people have already figured out how and made up new manufacturing techniques or materials to solve the problem. China has always put a lot of money into looking the best without having to be the best. For example, they send students every year around the world to compete at student competitions. Those students will have software and tools that most others don't have access to and they will have loads of faculty guidance and assistance. Most others don't have those advantages. That is not to say that they are cheating per se nor that they aren't very smart and very hard working students. China puts a lot of pressure on it's people to perform well and make amazing technology. Given their population, they have plenty of people happy and proud to rise to the challenge. Meanwhile, in America, you have the leadership leading us to deny our history, deny proven science, deny the people a living wage, deny decent healthcare costs, deny the people the right to vote and handicap all of our people and dumb us down. All for their own immediate personal gain. They can't see the forest through the trees and they can't see that the road they're putting us on is leading us exactly where they say they don't want to go. Many of them say they yearn for "the good old days". But those good old days were due to the people being able to have one working person and another at home most of the time. They didn't have as much anxiety and fear-mongering around them. They were well educated for the time, as far as they needed to be and did their jobs proudly. We need well founded and well thought out, honest and factually true education and lots of it if we're to remain at the top of the game.
Fascinating. I saw.a film about Rolls Royce manufacturing of turbine blades years ago and wondered about how proprietary this tech would be. Even though they just showed the most basic things it seemed extremely complex process not easily copied.
im okay with this.i hate when people have a monopoly on knowledge, especially when one side has the ability to make things cheaper for the rest of the world. If china can produce the blades, the entire world can have better and safer aircraft technology at lower prices. The west are just trying to keep their aircrafts expensive for no reason. Jet fighters should have cost USd100K tops right now if we put effort in making these things cheaper, allowing citizens to go to work on jets.
I worked on many western gas turbine engines and the level of secrecy is mind blowing. The manufacturing processes used to build turbine blades and other components is impossible to replicate. Chinese and other nationalities from the east will never get anywhere close to even read a company procedures book, let alone have a look at a blueprint of the inner working of a modern military engine.
@pm if you are referring to eastern European engines you have a point. My main comment was about the more advanced western engines, namely general electric, pratt and whitney and rolls royce. Also snecma and MTU, from france and Germany respectively.
you are right if it was 20 30 years ago. I work with German company in special heating system , our Chinese branch supplied to Chinese aerospace and military for testing this kind of stress. you will be amazed how they come this far , just go to China and see your self how they become now.
@@M_Jono thanks for letting me know. It is true the chinese made advancements, I have been to china once and I saw it with my very own eyes. Some technology will always leak to them, this is your example. That is why they buy companies like volvo and kuka robots so they can leapfrog and accelerate their R&D. It is a matter of time to catch up, but still believe they are not there yet, not 100%. Building a jet engine is more than the sum of its parts...
@@stavrostsitsopoulos2727 don't underestimate China speed. Ws15 testing already a success. It's just a matter time for mass production. Actually China are leading in many advance technologies.
3:46 "...they all need the precision mechanic of a Swiss watch, while bearing the loads of a bulldozer" I am so using this quote to describe jet engines from now on. A very apt description. I am not sure what, when or how the Chinese managed to bring the WS10 to a satisfactory level. We can speculate all we want but given the results its irrelevant. When one considers the vast amounts of both military and civilian engine technology available to them, vast amounts of R&D and industrial espionage, it was only a matter of time until they managed to create a good decently serviceable military turbofan. I would still rate them behind the Russians, Europeans and Americans but the gap has shrunk enough to be strategically and operationally irrelevant. Another informative video as always.
Iirc correctly on some forum they said they used it on the twin engine fighter for quite some time first, presumably lack of confidence in it, before throwing it on the j10 single engine.
@God's Creature Satisfactory in the sense that it's no longer worse than the AL-31 which was their baseline. For a nation that used and made MiG-21 derivatives until a few decades ago, this is no small achievement. Undoubtedly work continues on the WS-10 as well as the WS-13 and WS-15. But they are no longer reliant the Russians.
@God's Creature The AL-31s still in use will still need parts and until WS-10 production can pick up enough to replace them, of course they will continue to get engines from the Russians. And in regards to the Su-35 order, engines and long term support ain't cheap. Maintenance is as expensive or more so than just the fly away price.
Chinese were the first people in the world who actually invented the gunpowder which later paved the way for the creation of guns in Europe. If they can create gunpowder just imagine what sort of futuristic technology they would capable of developing specially when it comes to developing an engine.
Crap. WS-10 is based off CFM-56, an American civilian turbofan. The Chinese TVC technology likely benefited from a close look at Al-41, but the Chinese were working on TVC since the 1990s, and Chinese TVC design is distinct from Russian TVC design (Chinese TVC is two-segmented, designed for enhanced stealth by not deviating from the plane of the exhaust)
China has more than enough info on western jet engines even for fighters. They know what will work eventually if they keep working at it. As such it is easy to justify the investment in some tinkering.
Very sobering indeed. That said, I still have to give kudos for the creativity of the presentation where the weight issue included skinny feet and ankles on someone weighing only 50 kilos. And yes - bonus points for the painted toenails. 🤣
