The College of Arms in the Eighteenth Century 

Great presentation. Thanks a lot!

Very enjoyable, informative presentation, but I fear I have to differ regarding landscape heraldry. I'm certainly not a scholar nor a herald, but I've been a professional illustrator and graphic designer for thirty years. I've also presented at the Heraldry Society as well as published a paper in The Double Tressure, the scholarly journal of the Heraldry Society of Scotland. I think landscape heraldry can be interesting when viewed as illustration, but those illustrational, pictorial qualities are why landscape heraldry fails as proper heraldry. Heraldry is a visual system that has a specific function; and as such, it concerns itself primarily with form: it's emblematic, allusive, stylized, abstract. Heraldic devices are more like totems, not likenesses or depictions. A scholar can afford to indulge the watering down of heraldry's definition, since doing so enables them to write much more about the subject, however degraded the practice of heraldry becomes. But those of us who make heraldic art know heraldry as a living practice, not as a mere subject of antiquarian study, and thus we know first-hand the importance of maintaining the integrity of that practice, which entails maintaining a clear boundary between pictures and emblems. The two spheres serve entirely different objectives, and employ different approaches and sensibilities that require different visual vocabularies. One doesn't go to a portrait painter to commission a logo.

A year late, I’ve run across this wonderful lecture. Where can an American learn to be a serious and responsible amateur herald?

Interesting discussion. I cover a lot of heraldic topics on my channel, in particular a series called “Heraldic Mysteries.” Thanks again!

I realize this was posted months ago, but have a related question if someone would care to comment. My apologies but I can find no answers… I have found primary records in the form of deeds relating to the 14th-c. family of John Payne, Mayor of Southampton, proving them to be related to another Payne family represented by the 13th-c. family of another John Payn (II) of Wymondham, Norfolk, who had been Chief Butler of England until his death in 1402. This John’s arms appear on his seal (my avatar) showing a chevron between three of something unclear. Now, Hampshire records suggest the Paynes in Southampton sprang from the Payn family of Jersey who were in the area, confirmed by the names of witnesses in these records that include the surname Lempriere- with whom the Payns in Jersey have intermarried with for centuries as they remain there today. That family is known to belong to the PAYNEL family of Hambye, Le Haye Pesnil, Lea Mourtiers-Hubert, Briquebec, etc. who came (it is said) to England at the Conquest and given many estates and are well documented with arms that include several bars or a maunch, not a chevron or fess as expected. My question is therefore why are their arms so different? There is no resemblance between any grant of arms to a Payne I can find that resembles those of their Norman Paynel ancestors. However. the grant of arms to Sir Ralph Payne, Baron Lavington, who claimes descent from the Jersey Payns- was evidently given his Irish title associated him with Lavington, Wilts., which suggests the heralds identified him with the family of John of Southampton and these Jersey Payn’s- yet his arms are a fess between two lions! So confusing when the records appear to be so clear! In fact, the arms of John from his seal, showing a chevron, is also different from another family member I have proven to be his near kinsman to Joh. as described in the Visitations entry for Sir Thomas Payne of Market Bosworth, which is similar, though with a fess instead of a chevron…

York never did get the chance to pick a question to answer.