The Complex Trans Rep of Bob's Burgers 

I appreciate the variety of counter-arguments and refutations of the statements that I made within this video. As much as it is terrifying to have people disagree with your opinions and what you say, I hope that regardless you are able to find something useful or interesting within the 30 minutes and that it doesn't turn out to be a waste of your time.

I urge you to watch more of the show, and pay special attention to Gene. The kid is constantly experimenting with and exploring gender, and he's met with nothing but support from his family. It's a rare and beautiful thing to behold and it redeems the show's gender representation really well.

At first I felt weird by how the trans characters acted weird before realizing that EVERYONE was weird in the show and they weren’t demonized for it from what I’ve seen. They were just the show’s brand of ‘normal’

I love the recurrence of Bob going out of his way to say hi to Marshmallow if he sees her.

I thought the joke was that our wholesome family man Bob is being so chill helping sex workers where the audience might expect him to be sex negative

Regarding voice acting, Bob’s Burgers is also kind of anomalous because many cis women and girls in the show are voiced by men (Tina, Linda, Ms. Labonz).

I also love that everyone in the show thinks Marshmallow is too cool for them.

As a black queer person the thing I liked most about that episode is that nobody owes you passability, nobody needs to tell you what they identify as, and nobody needs to be “respectable” for you to respect their pronouns. Queer representation doesn’t need a label to identify the specific type cis het people need to understand you may never understand and even though you may be confused or off-put it doesn’t me you need to be an asshole or question me about it. There are a lot on non cis sex workers its a thing. A lot of queer people partake in party and drug culture. The idea that despite how fringe these women are Bob still respects and cares for them is overall the positive message we need.

The thing I love about Bob's Burger's is that *everybody* is weird and awkward in some form or another, but the show itself doesn't mock or sneer at its characters for that. The comedy comes from the characters navigating situations in unexpected or sympathetically-awkward ways or making sincere-but-sometimes-misguided-or-impulsive decisions that end up spiraling out of control. Bob himself is sometimes flummoxed or stressed by strange situations or awkward social encounters, but he's never mean, hateful, haughty, or contemptuous, and the rest of the family just tends to roll with the punches.

As a trans man, I love Marshmallow. She may not be a good representation of trans people, trans women in particular, but its her personality that really gets me. She's proud of herself, she's unashamed to be herself, and she carries herself with a pride that I wish I could carry. She may "weird" or a stereotype to people, but she's a character I hold close for my representation.

In a recent tweet from creator Loren Bouchard, he actually apologized for the early handling of Marshmallow when asked if she was trans or a drag queen. He said he always intended for her to be trans, but they didn't have the information they needed to handle that sensitively at the time and that was his mistake. He hopes to feature the recast Marshmallow more in future episodes since, as he put it, "the Belchers are lucky to be in her orbit". I guess what I'm getting at is the show has mishandled some trans representation, but unlike other shows you've covered, the people behind it are willing to listen and learn in order to make the show more representative and inclusive without resorting to stereotypes again. In the past they have recast characters so their VAs have matched their race, like Tina's teacher, a rarely seen character but a black woman who was originally played by a white woman until they recast her. Where Simpsons seems to put its head in the sand regarding the existence of trans people and Family Guy just adds them to the pile of people they can punch down at, Bob's Burgers feels like its sincerely trying to be more progressive and acknowledges that its failed in that in the past. I feel like others have addressed things like Gene (I have always loved how casually gender non-conforming he is myself) or how many of the cis women in the show are played by men, including Linda the mother and Tina the oldest daughter. EDIT: Also, you put an emphasis on how the show is made by "white dudes". Aside from the show getting its unusual speech patterns from being partially retroscripted (meaning the characters adlib a bit and its animated around that later), the creator of the show and most of the cast are Jewish. I really felt like early on they wanted the Belchers to be a Jewish family but felt they couldn't (perhaps because the earliest pitches had it as a dark comedy where the family are killing and serving people and Jewish people don't need that on their reputation). So they know what it's like to be a part of a marginalized group, even if they are cishet or white.

I felt that the part of Gene with the computer was less a joke on men being uncomfortable with transwoman, and more a joke about a 10 year old going to a porn site and seeing more than what he was expecting

This episode really exemplifies the early growing pains of Bob’s Burgers as a show. I think that from the start it was a fundamentally good natured show, and that is what has always set it apart from others of it’s kind who were/are mostly just cynical and mean spirited. And Bob’s Burgers definitely grew into that distinction more and more, but season one especially was really bogged down by a lot of conventions of it’s time, I can’t tell you what the reasons for that are other than guessing that it probably took them a bit to figure out what the show actually was. And that created a lot of that mess. It’s a conflict between what the show wanted to be and what the show had to grow out of. And of course the trans rep is a good example of that, but also the ending. Bob from a later season would absolutely never think to blackmail someone with the knowledge that they’re into ABDL, because later Bob’s Burgers is a series that celebrates outsiders and freaks and Bob is one of the most striking examples of that throughout the show because he’s nearly always written as the role of the straight-man, but it never turns to him being judgmental about others. I mean, it’s clearly here already, the way he interacts with the trans women and even gets along with them really well after a little bit. I’m really glad the writers grew past this. For one, it clearly helped the show become what it wanted to be, but also I wouldn’t wanna live in a world without Marshmallow.

so much of bobs burgers humor comes from its wholesomeness. i think the joke in the cab is you expect bob to be transphobic but it ✨subverts our expectations✨ by him being surprisingly fine with it

Apologies if I missed a comment that already addressed this, but something I think missing is that the three sex workers, Marbles, Cha-Cha and Glitter, are separate characters and don't all necessarily have the same representation. Marbles pretty clearly reads as trans with the "town full of small minded doctors" line, but to me Cha-Cha (who gets the line about being a married man) could be a transvestite without that necessarily saying anything about Marbles beyond the fact that one of her friends and co-workers is a transvestite.

imo a lot of the jokes where you were feeling "what is the joke here?" are actually jokes at the expense of us, the audience. people watching this episode in 2011 would have had a certain expectation for how characters and situations like these would be presented in a sitcom, and the show is setting up and then subverting those expectations on purpose. like, the bit where it zooms in on the sex workers' adams apples and stubble complete with scare chords, that's there to make the audience go "oh, okay, I know this set-up, now Bob's going to realize they're trans women and freak out or get weird about it", and then he _doesn't._ the show intentionally sets up for a cheap transphobic joke and then does a hard swerve at the punchline, essentially looking at the audience and going "why, what were _you_ expecting?" the joke about the client is the same thing - obvious setup for a transphobic "gag" where he reacts with disgust, but instead he just shrugs and goes "sure, why not" - it's a joke about what the audience expected to happen _not_ happening. it also doesn't surprise me that it would fall flat to someone watching it in 2023. these days when you see a trans person on TV you don't immediately feel the inevitable countdown to the transphobic joke at their expense, now we reserve our judgment until the punchline is delivered because we expect shows to be better about these things now than they were 12 years ago (i mean we're often disappointed, but we still _expect_ better). so when the expectation isn't the same, then a joke about subverting that expectation won't land.

So I think there is a lot missing here in terms of American drag/queer culture understanding. I had a brief time as a drag king before deciding it wasn't for me (variety of pandemic + drama + local scene related reasons), and the whole convo regarding mustache is like. So real. I've heard that and 5 O'clock shadow jokes multiple times amongst the queens, many of which were trans in some way (whether trans women or genderfluid or nonbinary). Now, we can certainly talk about the wider culture policing femininity and how this even impacts queer spaces, but like. It's real. It's a real convo tho the response is extreme (...in tone at least. I've heard multiple threats about stabbing eyeballs out with heels or nails, it's just said *playfully*). And the confusion is true to real life cis people, but the heartwarming thing is Bob is OPEN. Of course Bob doesn't immediately know, the ambiguity is there. Like... not to say it doesn't have flaws, but I love how it does a great job of making it feel real? Like yes in the drag room there are trans and cis women and nonbinary and trans women in drag who will joke about being men and etc. Bob gets into the "club" because he is helpful and open to these women, and so they don't censor themselves around him like they would around other cis people. The vibe of the episode is "we're all people, and thus all weird" (because Bob's family and Fischoder and etc are all just as, if not more weird), not "look at these weirdos". I feel like a lot of trans people who aren't active parts of the "grittier" counter culture elements of queerness see this and... and I say this gently and with love, but they do a kinda respectability politics at it. Like I had to actually stop the video when you got to the sex workers part, because I KNOW many drag artists and trans people who are sex workers. It is *very much* a part of the community. And I loved Bob's Burgers ending because it had trans queer sex workers come to a little girl's birthday party and shown absolutely, 100% NOT to be predators. Instead, they were the life of the party and a big help to Bob. It's sad that this is revolutionary, but I am happy these are repeated friends in Bob's space that are shown to be *good people*, if weird like everyone else. They may be trans sex workers, but they aren't victims, they aren't predators, and they aren't pitiable. They are Bob's fun friends who get to have power over their client via Bob as a way for Bob to have a "win" this episode.

You gotta admit, "Life gives you lemons, you gotta tuck them" is a pretty objectively hilarious line.

I honestly read them as sex workers who are doing a job, not necessarily conveying their true selves. I wouldn’t presume to know how a person identifies based on their performance of sex work.

With the voice acting thing, that may actually not be transphobic. Bob’s wife is also voiced by a man, and so is Tina. The show tends to use male voice actors for most the women.

One of Bob's favorite people is Marshmallow and it's kinda nice... And it has nothing to do with her being trans. He says, "she comes and goes as she pleases, she answers to no one, and she is truly free" and "she's not handsome, she's beautiful". He always says hi to her even in weird awkward situations. Maybe she's a stereotype. But I don't care if an irl trans woman is a stereotype either. Maybe she's also a really cool character who is loved by all the other main characters and treated as a ln individual person and a friend. Nobody makes a big deal out of it. Shes just there and it's comforting.

I think the distinction between the character who states they are a married man and the other character wanting surgery is to depict the fluidity of gender affirmation. The first character might be a transvestite, while the second might identify as trans.

I didn't take Gene being traumatised by the computer stuff as a transphobic joke specifically, it's just that he's like 11 and 11 year olds think all sex stuff is icky, I don't think the trans part was meant to be integral to the joke If he was a little older and very clearly interested in sexual stuff like Tina, I would have agreed with you

I think some of the humor just stems from the humor of the absurdity of Bob becoming involved in sex work. Something outside of his usual world.

I'm pretty sure that the 3 characters in the episode are in drag (I'm pretty sure they later on accept male pronouns, and I think in a later season we see one out of drag), but Marshmellow I think is Trans. could be wrong, but I think that's the lay of the land here. Also, makes sense with the general uncomfortable feeling of "who are we supposed to be laughing at here?" I think bob's Burgers in general avoids making a single character the butt of a joke, instead making the circumstance itself the joke (E.g. the joke here is that Bob has become a pimp for these sex workers, at least that's what I found funny, because he's a very average dad kinda guy, the contrast with pimp and bob is funny).

The idea of an episode about Tina growing up and “becoming a woman” was a perfect space to introduce trans women and have them help Tina accept and love herself.

I always got that Bobs Burgers just lets trans people be people and welcomed them into all spaces. Aside from the unfortunate terminology in the 2011 episode I think they do a pretty good job at trans representation.

Bobs burgers is very different from simpsons American dad and family guy. That would be like comparing loony toons and friends. It’s a totally different vibe.

I thought gene serves as good gender fluid representation.

Incidentally, the reason we don’t see Jimmy Pesto Sr. anymore is because his voice actor did a January 6.

ok so regarding the "banned from the computer" joke, i feel like it wasnt intended as a jab at trans people but rather just like "this kid whos like 10 saw corn and is disgusted cause,, its corn", but i agree that it reads differently

Uhhh I'm pretty sure the joke about "disgust at trans bodies" in porn etc comes more from the fact that..... Gene is 11 years old? Lol

Not to defend the episode, but I think the joke (for me, but I'm NB) in the exchange of services scene where Bob transports the man is the punchline that happens right after. Where Bob says "I think I might be a Pimp" or something to that effect. A jab about how Bob's acceptance of the sex workers and friendship with them led him to illegal activity. You could take that as a negative, but the only real negative is that Bob and the women are at more risk. Bob and his family don't decry that he is aiding sex workers out of a moralistic objection, they just worry about getting in trouble. The episode definitely has a lot of transphobia baked into its sight gags and structure, but I feel that this scene in particular was just a set up for a punchline, not the punchline itself. Overall, I think Bob's Burgers is a show where sometimes the creators are a bit ignorant but ultimately it's about celebrating differences and was an attempt at having a positive portrayal of impoverished trans women. It didn't really achieve it, but I do think that's what it was trying.

I believe the largest issue is you're taking a single episode. While that is typically your schtick, focusing in on one episode, your episode featuring the Simpsons and your Family Guy episode both gave consideration to other appearances. Marshmallow is a recurring character, often a bit character, but she's respected and it's regularly commented that she's beautiful. This is a safety show for me so it hits a bit closer to home as it were, but I definitely feel that this episode warranted a bit of a look at Marshmallow's other appearances, however minimal and "bit part" they are. There is the ability to push for better while also acknowledging that the show has already done that, given this was out of its first season out of thirteen (and a movie!)

11:50 I think the "joke" is that everyone's okay with the situation. Seeing Transgender sex workers being normalized in a TV show was so unexpected and refreshing that it could bring out a wholesome laugh. At the same time, seeing trans people purely being the but of the joke was so stale in comedy at this time that doing this was a welcome breaking of the mold. This episode more or less made the statement that "yes, gender nonconforming people are a bit unusual, but that's no reason not to treat them with humanity". This statement gets further justified in later scenes and episodes when one of the girls is just shown as a regular character in a mundane situation. That's more or less what I thought back when I watched this many years ago.

I think one of the reasons I like Bob’s Burgers is that it’s not a “mean” show like most of the other cartoons you mentioned like Family Guy, Simpsons, and the rest. The Belcher family is a lot less dysfunctional- they are shown to care about each other and help each other out and etc… They’re also in general very accepting and open-minded. I also find them more relatable than other cartoon families.

There's so much cute queer stuff happening in Bob's Burgers, obviously they were very gauche at the start, but I do love every expression of sexuality that made its way into this show. If you have time you should check it out! The first 4 seasons are the best imo. It was good to hear your perspective on it, thanks for the video Lily!

In the context of the show as a whole, I just feel like it wouldn't make sense for it to be an intentional jab at trans people. I feel like the episode is mainly about Bob meeting and mingling with a group of people he never even thought much about, and finding himself enjoying these people and this new experience. It's awkward-funny because you're seeing Bob out of his element. I think the writers definitely misunderstood trans identity but I don't think there was any malintent or any kind of messaging behind it. I think they genuinely just didn't grasp the difference between transgender peole and transvestites, but were trying to be openly sympathetic to them as people.

I always thought the joke of the bob becoming a pimp was just how quickly he assumed the role.

One thing about bobs burgers is, it doesn't always have a punchline. Unlike other adult cartoons. It doesn't feel like every single scene needs a joke.

Headcanon: When Gene looked up 'transvestites' on the internet here, he was trying to find out about trans people, as he feels he might be trans but didn't know the right words to use so accidentally ended up seeing either exploitative porn or transphobic memes. This scared him and held his egg back from breaking, because he came to associate being trans with obscene and unpleasant things. (Gene Belcher is the eggiest egg in the history of eggs.)

I'd say the initial casting of David Herman was less an exclusionary measure and more that he was already voicing a number of side characters and it makes more sense to just have the existing cast and crew cover one off characters, then getting a full time voice actor if they become more prominent later.

honestly, I found the trans characters to be a breath of fresh air. Putting aside the VA's (most cis women in the cast are voiced by men) I think they are characterized as weirdos but not any weirder than the main cast. Marshmallow is just a weird lady who comes around to parties. I think Bob has every chance to be transphobic but isn't and that's one of the points of the episodes.

You make a lot of good points about the issues with the rep here. Tho, like, I can't speak to the sex work stuff, but... there are definitely people who self-identify in a way that's sort of loose about whether they're transvestites or transgender, so this is a sympathetic representation of those folks to some degree. But, since it fits a stereotype, probably needs to be balanced out by other representations. Which they partly do with Marshmallow, but could probably be done more. I do think it's nice that they choose these characters to impart an important lesson to Tina about womanhood. Some folks are bringing up that Bob's Burgers also has cis men voicing cis women, which is something I thought of at first, but... as you've said, it doesn't resolve the dearth of missed opportunities for trans VAs. Very glad they recast Marshmallow. Also, relatedly... how many shows do we ever get to have trans women voicing cis women? Also, I read the claw-your-eyes-out as more of a "catfighting" thing, but I'm seeing other interpretations in the comments, so maybe it's just a joke that isn't landing clearly for anyone.

I personally interpreted Gene being ok with being banned from the computer, as a prepubescent kid accidentally discovering porn (the kind being irrelevant) and being grossed out. It makes me sad that for every person who saw it the way I did, theres a person who saw it in the negative and harmful way pointed out.

My friends and I aren't super prolific in queer theory, definitions or all the LGBTQ+ flags but we are a really diverse group and honestly we just have fun with each other. I'm non-binary but I love it when my lesbian friends group me in with them and include me. My drag queen friend uses she/her pronouns when she's performing but she makes the except same "married man" joke all the time. It's cool that in our community as long as we're all having fun and being respectful we all get along and joke around. We all accept each other and understand that as unique individuals we don't all perfectly fit labels, so if anyone corrects you or asks you to stop doing something we agree and just roll. Characters in the show jump to violence, especially Louise, and the adults and the children kind of act the same. That's the joke. When I first saw this episode I loved that marshmallow kept her voice. To me it meant that she loves her voice and is proud of it, as she should be It's absolutely amazing!

I think the label issue can be forgiven due to age of the episode and age of the workers. Some older folk in the community still use those terms interchangeably. And to be fair, some people going through the gender journey may label themselves different things at different periods. Suzy Izzard publicly went through this. She previously felt the label transvestite fit her. She joked about being a male lesbian and being a dude who just occasionally cross dressed and did jokes about the difference between herself and a trans woman. But in her late 50s, she reidentified as a trans woman instead of a transvestite. I get wanting people to use the terms correctly, and in this instance i do think the workers are identifying themselves and labeling themselves how they feel comfortable. Back in the day, there was also an idea that you were a transvestite until you had the surgery, then you were a trans woman. Yes, that's problematic. But it would be realistic to have characters who think this because they do exist and that was the thought for those older folk. Edit: a couple people mentioned transvestite is not the same as transsexual or transgender, and I agree and acknowledge. But while that may be true, I still think the workers in the show are identifying themselves how they feel comfortable. I know this is a bad example, but bisexual is going out of style for some sections of the community, and a small group is pushing for people to use pansexual instead. And even outside that, there are people who state there is a difference between bi and pan, while other people state there is no difference and it's just a label preference. And older people may feel reluctant to reidentify as pan if they've been bi their whole lives. Older people may use outdated terms when self identifying. So while there is a legitimate difference between the terms, it is possible for people to misuse the terms, and for the misuse to be valid if it is for self identifying

I feel like while it takes a while to nail the tone it's going for, core to Bob's Burgers is the optimistic underlying message that the things that we are conditioned to reject as weird and uncomfortable are a crucial part of a functioning and vibrant community.

What is different about Bob's Burgers is that it takes place in an oceanside city, vacation resort area as opposed to the suburbs. That is why there are so many different types of characters.

Truly, you should watch the show more. That you think Bob is remotely transphobic shows you don't know him, and he's worth getting to know. Bob has a crush on Marshmallow that is absolutely charming.

I could have sworn you'd already done a South Park video on their very horrible representation of trans people, but it must have been my imagination. I can only imagine such a video would be at least an hour long at best!

I don't think that every single scene in a show like this has to be laughing at something or someone or be a silly situation. It didn't seem like we were supposed to be laughing at Bob encouraging the guy that wanted to be taken to escorts accepting these trans sex workers over Cis ones. It just seems like a scene made to establish that he likes them as people, set up that he has a good relationship with them, and to make sure we know that they've had multiple interactions between what was shown. I've only ever watched 3 or 4 episodes so maybe the overall tone of the show is meaner than I understand. I just don't think that there is supposed to be a...joke in the scene. Just a quick establishing scene.

The strange thing about Bob's Burger is a lot of the comedy is just in "how awkward can we make this situation without it going to Peep Show Wedding territory". So there are so many times when I don't know who the joke is meant to be on

So, as an afab femme person, I kind of read the *specific* threats of violence as a sort of feminine variety of violence. Mostly because (at least in my experience) it is a specific form of violence associated with self defense and usually taught to girls as they go through puberty and start having to worry about safety. "Someone attacks you, go for the eyes. Blind em and run." Though I will admit that my familiarity of this show goes *as far as what you're showing*

The real problem with Bob's Burgers is that it was originally gonna be a show about a family of cannibals and we lost out on positive cannibal representation

Babe wake up the new lily vid just dropped

I always interpreted the joke where Gene saw the website related to his youth. Although the children are voiced by grown adults, we are constantly reminded by the show that the characters are, in fact, children. I thought he was referring specifically to the fact that he was too young to process what he’d seen. Of course, this is just my interpretation of the joke and maybe just wishful thinking as someone who loves the show.

A lot of _Bob's Burgers,_ especially in the first son, isn't so much joke-based comedy, but humour-based amusement.

Id heard good things about trans rep in bobs burgers so the title has me scared lol (After watching - im really glad to see the show did improve later down the line, even if it wasn't as good at the start)

I think this episode suffers a bit if one is an unfamiliar bob's burgers viewer. Which is very much still on the show producers, since it's such an early episode, so the odds of a first time viewer are much higher. But Bob's personality and how he rolls with the situation I think is supposed to be most of the humor, but it's hard to know that if you don't know Bob as a character. And yeah, there's quite a few jokes called out here I would never initially peg as being transphobic e.g. the joke about Gene being horrified by what he saw (Gene would have that reaction to any porn) and the thumb-eye-gouging threat (I would expect that line out of....literally any character in this show. Especially the fem ones for some reason?) The latter actually demonstrates a huge difficulty for presenting diversity in writing. Because it would suck to have the trans characters not be allowed to behave like any other lovable freak in the series just because society stereotypes them in negative ways that overlap with how folks act on the show? But it's a hard line to walk. I agree trans people always being sex workers in TV is a huge problem, and it's been a while since I watched the episode, but I do remember low-key liking that they were just kinda presented as part of the community. And Bob's response to learning about a side of his community he didn't know about, and yeah was surprised, but he ultimately just accepted it/rolled with it instead of experiencing a huge shock and a moral panic or other cliche.

I definitely think it’s important that we talk about what the writers pre conceived notions about trans and trans adjacent characters, but as a trans woman myself and a viewer since I was a little boy I think bobs pretty comfortable with trans people as a rule following this episode, I remember when another character described marshmallow as “tall dark and handsome” and bob was taken about and said “marshmallows not handsome she’s… beautiful” and I thought that was really sweet, and I’ve often found myself surprised about the flexibility of bobs ability to take new people in stride and be really polite usually :) I do think this episode had a lot of rocky moments but I really do love that proceeding this we see some of those girls every now and then and it’s barely a thing they make note of which is a type of representation I love because it just affirms I’m allowed to be a person in the world without being a center of controversy or conversations based on my identity. I love your videos and thanks for making them:,)))))))

I love Bob’s Burgers, it’s one of my main comfort shows. Sheesh, cab Bob! Is also one of my favorite episodes. I can see how it is far from perfect, though, and really appreciate this video and your discourse. I think the show has really evolved, and appreciate how you acknowledged that, while also staying critical and discussing trans issues. Marshmallow will always stay one of my favorite characters though. She’s everything I want to be; she comes and goes as she pleases, she answers to no one, and she is truly free ☺️💕

To be honest I think the sex workers being physically aggressive is just how all the characters are written, bc someone like bobs wife also threatens people similarly and she is cis. Also I think the joke with gene is that he saw porn and sexual stuff, like a kid his age shouldn’t be seeing sex and sex videos. I don’t think it was a jab at trans bodies, or at least that’s how I interpreted it

Bob’s Burgers is a show about “rolling with it”. The core ethos of the show is “everyone is different and you won’t understand most people, so roll with it, life is too short for these hang ups.” Maybe Im just really pessimistic but as I’ve kind of accepted that cis people will never really get what it means to be trans, but they can accept me and use the pronouns I want and support my transition even if they don’t get WHY. I think that’s just what I have to accept, the best I’ll get from most people is “okay pal, if that’s what you say” . So Bob feels realistic to me, he’s a middle aged man meeting queer people for possibly the first time and he’s not hostile but he does see them as men, if all the hookers are transvestites or transgender. This episode was written by cis people who don’t understand trans people, but they want to send a message that it’s not worth getting upset over and just treat them like normal people. I think it’s more honest than soapbox trans episodes where everyone is completely understanding or a complete bigot.

I feel like the strict distinction between transvestite and transgender you make here doesn't really reflect the reality of a lot of queer people, especially in contexts such as sex work, that find themselves somewhere between those labels. I know here in Argentina a great deal of LGBT+ activism is carried out by people who identify as _travesti,_ and for whom that is a politically significant label, even if they never dress like the gender they were assigned at birth. They're not just "men wearing female clothing," but they also don't identify as trans, and don't want to be seen as women.

i used to rlly like bob's burgers when i was in high school (nothing happened i just dropped off of watching it), and while it is true that bob's burgers tends to have kinder intentions than shows like it (as previously pointed out), its ok to think they missed the mark in certain places! even w/ good intentions ppl can get things wrong and accidentally come off as offensive, and its important to acknowledge when this happens. we live in a society (lol) and it teaches everyone certain racist/transphobic beliefs, and sometimes ppl end up parroting them w/o realizing. it doesnt make u a bad person, just that its good to know this so u can start the process of unlearning things. despite saying shes not a fan of the show, i think lily gave it a fair shake, and even if u do like the show, its good actually to be able to recognize flaws in smth that u like.

I feel like the humor in bob’s burgers just might not be for some people? I think there’s often no joke on somebody where Lily is looking for the punchline, it’s just observational humor. I think the show has a good eye for what people are like and that’s entertaining . The characters are over the top and do absurd stuff but they still feel human and recognizable. People we encounter everyday just taken to another level. The show makes pretty clear what view it has on certain people and their behavior by either making them loveable or infuriating, this is how it mostly prescribes values. I think this is what kinda sets it apart for me at least.

I hate that I, a tran, laughed at the "I'm fine losing computer access for two days" joke.

I just thought they were drag queen sex workers when i saw the episode first air. And also about the violent men bit, cis women would say the same thing if a friend pointed out a mustache. Honestly digging at an insecurity can evoke a reaction like that

I always read the eyeball thumbing treat as more of a dig at the fact they they’re crack using sex workers in a seedy part of the city more than male coding. They really veered away from shock humor after the first season, it was a lot more like home movies back then.

In a "defense" of Bob taking the guy to the sex workers. I always interpreted the "joke" as Bob being cool taking a person to a sex worker and also just setting up That he's friends with them later in the episode

I get the vibe they were really trying to make an episode with good trans representation, but since it was 2011 and the show (likely) didn’t have any trans voices adding to the script and story, it came off confused and not very well aged. Still, it is refreshing that it wasn’t so mean spirited like when other adult cartoons cover the subject. I’d definitely check the rest of the show out if you’re interested in it at all, as this was the only episode I felt didn’t age well and the show as a whole gets much more cleaner and wholesome after the first season, very funny too

I will say "thumb your eyes out" is not the most masculine threat It's kind of the vibes of " snatch your weave" But I think you're still right about the overall scene.

As a huge fan of Bob's Burgers and a trans person, I knew what I was getting into with this video. It took me awhile to get into the series myself due to this episode in particular and what I perceived to be an underlying transmisogynist tone to the series. Many of the female characters in the show are voiced by cis men, and as media enjoyer I initially suspected this was done, as it is done in many other shows, to make fun of the "masculine" characteristics in these characters. And honestly, I think at the beginning maybe it was. Many Bob's Burgers fans I've talked to don't consider the first season a good representation of the show, simply because it did try to conform to the conventions of other adult cartoons with similar tropes. (I /could/ argue that this was due in large part to pressure from producers to get positive ratings from doing what was "safe." However, I find those kinds of arguments somewhat weak.) As the show came into its own, it became kinder. It focused more on the wholesome relationships between the family members, who are written to actually care about each other in a way that is sooo uncommon. That's why I really liked the conclusion to this video! When shows like this change, they hardly ever change for the better. The characters rarely become more rounded out and less caricatures of themselves (or of certain demographics). My biggest issue with Bob's Burgers as it is today is that it tries so hard to be inoffensive that it doesn't take a hard stand either way, which is dangerous in the current political environment.

I think some of the commenters here missed the point of this video. What I always appreciate about Lily's way of critically analysing these topics, is that it's not just a retelling of the episode as the creators intended it to be. Because while the creators may not have intended for something to be harmful, it can certainly be interpreted as such by ignorant parts of the audience. And it's important to look at these things in this critical light, to lern how to convey things better. And they did. That's the main take away from this the way I see it. If people hadn't criticised how this episode handled trans topics, and educated the creators on what their jokes may imply even without them intending to, it might not have changed for the better.

i love all of your videos on trans rep in popular media, and just all of your videos in general 💗💗💗 i am afab and nonbinary- i have excessive hair to the point i shave my face, neck, chin, and arms every single day. i started to get my upper lip and eyebrows (unibrow too) waxed by the time i was maybe 10. kids called me a werewolf among other hurtful things. i am 24 years old and still shave every single day to try and hide these things. i have a deep voice and i’m infertile. for these reasons i have always been made to feel “other” than a woman. it pisses me off to no end when people list the above things as indicators for being a trans woman.

i do remember the trans lady on rollerskates was always respected by everyone in the town.

I don’t know what to call these types of sex workers. They’re pretty common, I’ve seen men dressed as women as sex workers a lot in different areas. But I don’t know if they are trans or in drag or what. I’m guessing that the creators of Bobs Burgers are the same, they are portraying a phenomena that does exist in spades but have no clue what it is. Please don’t assume anything else from what I said- im just commenting on whether these characters are meant to be trans Edit: yes, they could have made it clearer in the show. But, i actually find this more realistic because i’ve met a lot of people that fit this confusing mold, on the line of trans and transvestite. Its messy but life is messy. Shoutout to Marshmellow and the show’s improvement!!!!

I think there is a core misunderstanding that is affecting how you see some elements of the rep. Bobs Burgers isn't just another dumb family sitcom cartoon like family guy and the simpsons. It's also a heart-warming slice of life. Not every moment of the show is meant to be funny. About 11 mins in you ask "what is the joke here" and the answer is that there isn't one. It's just a moment of normalization. To me the message of bobs burgers as a whole show is something like "People are odd, but if you give them a chance you will grow to love them for who they are". It's still far from perfect representation, but I score it more of a "mediocre but earnest" than a "kind of problematic".

i really love bob's burgers but i've always had mixed feelings on the trans episode. it really didn't age great, but i still think it's a pretty alright episode. could be worse, at least. it really shows that it's over a decade old. i like marshmallow very much and i'm glad they've treated her pretty well.

I'm not trans, but I am intersex, NB, Apothisexual, Jewish, Autistic, and have mild mobility issues. I get hate too. So two things you got wrong. 1. Reading way too much into things. I feel like you're are looking for reasons to be upset. It's actually some of the best Trans representation in an animated sitcom 2. Bob's Burgers is nothing like any of those other shows you mentioned. You're not a fan of it yet, so it's not your fault for thinking it is. Bob's Burgers isn't really a comedy like family guy where it's just joke diarrhea. It's a heartwarming slice of life sitcom about a loving couple and they're mostly innocent children going through everyday life while running a struggling burger joint. Not every line is meant to be a joke. The scene with Bob driving the john to the trans sex workers is meant to be taken at face value. It's not a joke. It's completely genuine. In family guy it would be a joke (Most likely a tasteless one), but in Bob's Burgers the writing isn't like that.

"I'm not sure where the joke is supposed to be directed at, is it the trans woman, bob, the guy looking for a sex worker?" Welcome to Bob's Burgers, jokes are sometimes just mildly amusing situations with no real punchline or 'victim'

You gotta get your head out of twittermode. 9:32. Kids banned from the PC for watching trans P0RN. As he'd be for regular P. We can't be certain but that's a reasonable enough assumption

This episode feels very much "of its time" when there wasn't a decent amount of wholesome Trans representation, so the writers were able to kind of jumble together stereotypes and cross-dressing without actually addressing the entire idea of gender-normality. It feels like a decent step in the right direction, especially for 2011, but it definitely could have been better. I really agree with your take that we need to discuss the well-intentioned but misguided things so we can guide them forward and advance the discussion on oppression and representation.

Bob being obsessed with marshmello is still my favorite

Thank you for this, this is a great video. I'm a big fan of Bob's Burgers, but my love for it is almost entirely post season 2. "Sheesh! Cab Bob?" nearly put me off the show entirely. I'm glad Marshmallow has been recast and I hope that means we get to see more of her and perhaps more explicit (and clear) recognition of her being trans. An episode in season 8 I found interesting was "The Bleakening", part of the plot of which revolves around an LGBTQ nightclub being shutdown and having to find a new venue for its annual Christmas Party, and we get a performance by a drag queen (voiced by Todrick Hall, who in real life I believe is gay and cis). Again it's very incidental, and we see some of the season 1 characters again and it remains ambiguous whether they are indeed trans or in drag or what exactly, but I think the episode is an interesting marker on the journey the show's creators are taking in trying to be better allies and better incorporate LGBTQ+ talent into the show.

A recurring part of the show is Bob and the very obvious bisexuality he has. Parts of the show that might seem to be offensively "pointing out" trans women and queer people, are sometimes moments to show Bob's infatuation with male and female physical features. He's very awkward about this kind of stuff. The joke is that he's genuinely trying to compliment and take interest in these people, but he does it so terribly that it comes off as offensive.

Your comparison of Bob's Burgers to Simpsons, family guy, etc... is innacurate. The Belchers conflict always stems from the family's love for one another.

Really don't think trans was used as a joke. The "joke" was just that he was a part of that sex work world

What I loved about that episode was that Bob just got used to his friends and went from polite and uncertain to just accepting them as they were. They became normalized to him because of his regular interactions with them to the point of just being buddies and not flinching to be around them in public or even in front of his family. That meant a lot to me: normalization through interaction. They stopped being others and just became his buddies. It is through normal interactions with people on relatively equal footing that brought it about. That's at least how it felt to me as a queer cat myself. It was also fun that this blue collar family man was just cool instead of prejudice. I love how that trope was subverted. We working glass joes aren't always narrow-minded. As for the imperfect stuff... Personally, I'm willing to let some of it slide, knowing the time and also out of respect that acceptance can come even when your attitudes and ideas are a mixed bag and changing. Even if you don't fully understand something like this, you can still try to be decent and treat people like people, even as you are working to be better. It's real, but how much you're willing to forgive definitely will depend on who you are and your experiences.

i usually have a 3 minute attention span when im not hyperfixating on something but i watched this whole thing!! i didnt even put it on 2x speed!! ive never watched bobs burgers at all, ever, but this video was good enough for me to watch. thank you :3

Yeah I find bob's burgers to be fascinating in terms of a show that started out more "edgy" but still had a solid heart and realized very quickly early on that that heart is what made it stand out. Thank you for making this!

I really like that the creative team of Bob's Burgers was willing to own the mistake and recast while the show was still ongoing. Seeing people like Friends writers say they flubbed a trans character in the 90s is nice, but having them make the change during the run of the show feels even better. One thing I appreciate about the episode is how little they say, especially at first, and kind of let the audience (and Bob) draw their own conclusions. Of course, that kind of feels like a double-edged sword, since people desperate for positive representation will be like "look! they didn't call us slurs!" while bigots can look at it and be like "ha ha, the joke is obviously about how delusional those people are". It's an approach that felt fairly progressive and positive in 2011, but feels decidedly less so in 2023. I will say one thing that I've always enjoyed about Bob's Burgers is, as other commenters have said, how fundamentally good-natured it is. Even when the main family is like "ugh, that guy, i hate them", we're usually shown that they are, at best, the kind of mildly annoying that...really isn't very different from our main family. Except the landlord and his brother, who are allowed to be cartoonishly evil and escape consequences, which somehow manages to fit in to a cartoon sitcom and feel realistic at the same time.

I know Lily pointed out at the beginning that she doesn't watch Bob's Burgers, but the description of Louise hurt my heart. Especially the "sort of like Stewie from Family Guy" 😂 oof

This video was very educational for me. I had no idea transvestite and transgender were two different things. I always thought that transvestite was a dated term for transgender but now I know a transvestite is basically just a cross dresser and not trans at all.

Hai. Firstly, this is overall, a really good video essay. Great job Lily! 🎉 ❤ I am a Trans Man, on T for 10 months now, and a former sex worker. For clarity, I know that I'm not a trans woman so it won't hit me the same, but this is how I read the first episode. I actually thought that the overall queer discussion in Bob's Burgers (all of it) was really well done. For example; Bob's questioning of his sexuality. Imo the framing of the trans women in the way it occurred in the cab at the beginning, came through a lens of Bob's sheer ignorance on the matter. Literally that's it. It's ignorance framing. Which, I actually found super useful. I often forget, with the spaces and communities I'm in, that I have a weird privilege here in my knowledge pool. Most people haven't got a clue at all. Remembering that other people, average working class cis people, have no idea about us at all. Bob's entire attitude is glorious and just... Loving, accepting and utterly uninformed. And I'm here for it. As for the dude who wasn't sure. That encouragement, for me, made the joke literally the flexibility and fluidity of sexuality for me. It was just... "It's ok to try something new bro" for me. Re: Male Coding of trans women, i also just saw the trigger and the discomfort and stuff. I've used similar language when uncomfortable with friends taking the piss out of me. Their use of language against themselves, to me, read as their personal internalised transphobia. Not a mislabelling of trans women generally. Does that make sense? Marshmallow is a great character too, makes me smile. As you point out, the use of the Trans people to paint the moral lesson was great too. More trans actors, voice actors, etc in media is super important though. I absolutely agree with you on that one! Anyway, these are just _my_ personal opinions as a trans dude, who enjoys Bob's Burgers. Please feel free to disagree with me, and point out where i might be wrong! I love these conversations.

Some of these I think you over-analyzed or missed the actual joke. The joke with the sex workers is at Bob's expense, not the sex workers themselves. It's pretty clear that Bob doesn't know any other sex workers. It's obvious that he doesn't understand the effect of what he's doing, so we're laughing at his naivete. I think it's just so common to expect transphobia to be the punchline that it's confusing when it isn't obvious. Especially for people old enough or experienced enough to have been targeted. The porn joke with Gene is a bit trickier. For that one I can only offer an alternate take rather than an assertive disagreement. I believe Bob's reaction would have been the same had Gene outed himself as watching porn with cis actors. That Gene simply stepped into the deep end unprepared for lack of a better term. Even the most benign and beautiful sex acts are considered to be overwhelming by people not familiar with them, and he's a twelve year old boy. Not a grown man with any strong grasp of his identity or sexuality. There's a specific type of joke that Simpsons and Bob's Burgers uses often which requires alot of setup and can fall flat if you're not a long time watcher. Screw The Audience jokes: Where nothing really happens and things you'd expect to be provocative just don't happen. Solely because the show has set up the expectation that they would. The easy one that comes to mind is Homer in the Simpsons bar hopping, and landing in a lesbian bar. Focusing on all the stereotypical hints of homosexuality and storming out because the building has no fire exits. Either oblivious to, or just not caring that he was in a gay bar.

I love your videos on trans representation in TV shows, Lily, & I have a suggestion. Could you please do a video about The Golden Girls? There’s an episode called Strange Bedfellows that features a politician called Gil Kessler who reveals he’s a trans man. As you’d expect from a an episode from 1987, it’s played for laughs, & Gil is also portrayed by a cis man. At the same time, (as was common in The Golden Girls), I felt they handled the storyline in a far more nuanced & progressive manner than other sitcoms of that era (& future eras). It was also the first example of trans male representation I recall seeing in a sitcom. Although he’s never seen, Sophia’s son Phil is a cross -dresser (though not trans), & Blanche also dates a man who enjoys cross dressing in one episode. There was other queer representation in the show too. Many of the writers & crew members were gay, & they tried to push the boundaries as much as the networks would allow. As you can probably tell, I’m a huge Golden Girls fan, so if you do decide to do an episode on it, I’d be more than happy to help you out with research.

Tuesday morning really is a free time lmao. I usually havefew things to see on tuesday, while on the weekends it's just too much. Thanks for making comtent int he mid-weed

While I get where you are coming from based only on this episode only, I do think it is important to know that throughout the series Bob is always pretty understanding in general. There is a thanksgiving episode where he learns an employee isn't just being nice to him but hitting on him. Instead of being disgusted by a gay man hitting on him he takes it just as a compliment. that and after this episode bob continues to be good friends with the trans women and even the kids are shown to be on good terms with them. So while at first Bob might have been slightly judgmental (staring at the adams apple and body hair) he never really acts on those first thoughts. Which is normal and human, and the actual important part if what he actually says and what he does. I get why the zoom ins might be read as a bad thing but it is a consistent style choice for the show at least when it comes to Bob. It has been a while since I watched it so I can't say for sure if they do the same thing for the kids or Linda