The Controversial 2012 AL MVP Debate...10 Years Later 

Since the MLB writers have been so inconsistent with pitchers in MVP voting, I'd prefer that pitchers not be considered for the award from here on out. To me the CY Young is basically a MVP award for pitchers. However, that being said, Ohtani really mucks up my argument on this one.

I think the real reason Cabrera won MVP over Trout is a little more simple: Cabrera’s team won the AL Central. Trout’s team finished in third place and missed the playoffs. For a narrative-driven award it’s not a coincidence that the year Trout and the Angels finally won the AL West (2014) is when he finally won his first MVP. I know players have won it on losing teams before but I don’t think voters like to “reward” non-playoff players unless it’s an obvious choice.

0:38 I wouldn’t call that an unwritten rule. I agree with it. I think you need to have one of the literal best hitting seasons of all-time to win the MVP as a DH, because you’re only hitting. The name of the award is literally “Most Valuable Player.” If you’re a slow, bulky guy who doesn’t play defense, you’re not as valuable as somebody who has great hitting stats and also contributes defensively and on the base paths.

People value batting triple crown differently than pitching triple crowns. I feel like its way harder for a hitter to get a triple crown.

It is nearly impossible to not give the first triple crown winner since 1967 the mvp award. Like I get trout had a fantastic season but imagine the backlash that would’ve been caused by miggy not winning the mvp but leading in the 3 stats we’ve had for decades. Miggy also took his team to the playoffs while trouts didn’t (it’s something that still plays a factor into voting). Miggy also played at a very pitchers friendly ball park (420 centerfield) for half his games. I personally don’t think the decision was that controversial however I still think they both had great seasons. It wasn’t like they gave it to Matt Wieters now that would be controversial.

As a Tigers fan I'm so glad to see Miggy show glimpses of his past self hitting over 300 at age 39 people forget how good he was. He is the one of the few people to have over 3000 hits and 500 home runs so glad he made the asg as well.

It is an interesting debate however I believe that a GOOD triple crown season should generally result in an mvp simply because of its historical significance, if Trout had won the MVP we would look back on it as “the season where Miggy had a triple crown but they gave the mvp to someone else” instead of “the season where miggy had a triple crown mvp season and mike trout also played really well” I hope that makes sense

What’s crazy is that you could argue that Cabrera’s 2013 season was better than his 2012 season, but Chris Davis hit 53 home runs in 2013, so there was no repeat Triple Crown.

Cabrera playing a new position should not factor into the decision. The fact is thay he was playing that position, and he was playing it poorly.

Sorry but this is possibly the least controversial MVP win I've ever seen. Miguel won the goddamn triple crown, there is no one that should have been anywhere close to him in voting. It's not close at all

It’s always a good day when sportstorm uploads :)

Great video man, wasn't watching baseball during 2012 but this was really interesting

Pedro was 118% better than Pudge, 3-6 WAR advantage as well and he still lost. Damn.

If we want to talk about mistakes in terms of MVP voting and triple crowns, we have to discuss the 1942 AL MVP vote. Ted Williams literally won a triple crown, played more games than Joe Gordon, had a better 162g pace WAR (and obviously a better war generally but … ), beat this man in every conceivable way… but the voters gave it to Gordon bc he was a Yankee. Unreal

McCutchen winning MVP over Goldschmidt in 2013 is an example of the opposite situation (defensive WAR + playoffs = MVP award over superior bat)

This channel is so freaking good

I can see your point about Trout being a more complete player. Defense has always been considered secondary to offence for some reason. It's just how we've been programed to think.Its easier for most to understand offensive stats. Personally I rarely bother to look at defensive stats but still You can hit a homer then go out & miss a catch & if someone scores it kind of cancels your hr so of course D is just as important. I'm new to WAR so it'll take some getting used to.

I remember the hype that season. A few friends that I went to school with chose Mike Trout because he was at a big debate between Bryce Harper. I think you should do a video of Mike Trout Bryce Harper take from 2012.

I also think that writers tend to shy away from giving Rookies the MVP. Some might give their vote but majority will give it to the veteran as the "obvious" decision.

Obviously as a tigers fan I’m a bit biased but Miguel’s win is the outcome I would expect in most situations similar this is one of the best hitters of all time that fact isn’t really up for debate so if we have one of the best hitters get one of the most difficult awards it’s only reasonable to recognize said player as the MVP especially if the number 2 guy is a rookie that had already locked down the rookie of the year award

I still give Miggy the MVP.

Please the fall of the pirates and potential rise would be a great video

this years al mvp race is gonna get pretty nuts

The other thing you have to think about is that when talking about the most valuable player is the impact they have on a team. Cabrera by that point was a veteran and team leader. Without him that team would have been a lot different. Trout was a second year player that had a great season but not the leader he is today. Also 139rbi is just ridiculous

Judge v. Altuve is another saber vs traditionalstats mvp race and arguably the last time things like OPS weren't used as a primary metric

How is this a question? Cabrera easily deserved it

Please make a video on the 2017 MVP race. How Judge didn’t win is still beyond me. SBs and AVG vs Fielding/OBP/Power

Yeah Cabrera wasn’t the greatest defender as Trout but how many elite players say hey what can I do to help us win. He changed positions going to third base, a position he hasn’t played full time in 5 years. Plus his leadership is something stats don’t show

The greatest travesty in MVP voting of all time was the year Ryan Howard won over Pujols

Credit is given for good interesting video. Miggy winning the first Triple Crown in 45 years equals the MVP is what makes sense for baseball fans over a certain age. Showing WAR numbers and other newer sabermetrics’s will never replace a batting Triple Crown in the eyes of fans over the age 35(in 2012) and now over the age of 45. Playing for a World Series team(not just a playoff team as the video said) makes a big difference as well. Plus Miggy had enough years as a great player to evaluate his value in the clubhouse and teammates have always loved him. Trout was only 20 then and that couldn’t be evaluated then(now we know teammates love him too). Compare any new stat you want but if your the first in 45 years to win a batting Triple Crown your winning the MVP. Case closed. End of story. No amount of videos explaining that poor defense should matter will matter. Being a lifelong Tiger fan matters in this case but if Trout had won the Triple Crown then I wouldn’t have a leg to stand on

Another great video! I thought 2012 was the catalyst for introducing advanced stats into MVP discussions too. Then 2017 happened and Judge lost to Altuve because of batting average and strikeouts lol. Forget the scandal. Based on stats alone Judge should’ve won MVP that year, but again, was stuck holding ROY as a consolation prize. There’s also no way the Yankees even sniff the playoffs that year without him, in what was considered another rebuilding year. I’d be interested to see you do a video breaking that and a few other races down!

i looooove the end of this video, absolutely stuck that landing

Hey can you do a vid about the O’s winstreak

Maybe they will be a season where both hitter and pitcher will have a triple crown season and the ana will have to play a part of which player wins MVP for the season.

10 war season is the only argument you need

Would love to see a similar video with Matt Kemp and Ryan Braun 2011 MVP race, Not only did Braun use performance enhancing substances but I truly think Kemp had the better season and deserved it…man was robbed!

I really hope Luis Arraez hits .400 and puts batting average back in the mix as a key stat. Putting the ball in play and hitting for contact still matters. As of two weeks ago, Juan Soto and Freddy Freeman were tied in OPS+ (160), but in batting averages Freddy was hitting ~.333 while Soto hitting ~.261. I don’t care what the sabermetrics say, those two OPS+ are NOT the same even if they are statistically equal. Traditional stats (AVG, HR, RBI) do matter!! Miguel Cabrera deserved the MVP over Trout.

I am looking at the hashtaged tweets and I am laughing very hard lol

SS: We will someday have another MVP race that is as contentious as this one. The only question is when? *2022 has entered the chat*

Not to mention Miggy did it in probably the least hitter friendly park

If you believe Trout's defense should be an important factor in his MVP qualifications, then that's an argument *against* Pedro, who *only* pitches. If Cabrera loses points for subpar defense, surely Pedro should lose points for essentially no offense or defense at all. Either being the best in one facet of the game is enough, or it's not.

It could happen this year with judge and yordan and I’m a huge judge fan he plays gold glove defense and is hr leader but yordan slugs higher and his ba is higher. Haven’t dove into they’re stats too much but they probably have close to the same WAR the only problem is yordan doesn’t play defense and both of them are on the two winniest teams in the Al. It’s gonna be fun to see what happens I hope judge wins if he can keep up his pace but I definitely don’t see Yordan slowing down anytime soon, this years AL MVP race is going to be interesting.

2011 nl mvp race Braun vs Kemp 2012 nl mvp race Posey vs Braun runners up had better seasons not by war for posey but Braun isn't the defender buster was then.

This and the Harden/Westbrook MVP races are so similar you have to insert that Leonardo DiCaprio meme

A LOT of pitchers got robbed of Cy Young awards because of traditional stats. Most notably Dave Steib.

Pitchers should not win the MVP, that's what the CY Young is for. You can not say a pitcher that starts maybe 35 games a year is more valuable than an everyday player.

People will talk about Ohtani winning over Vlady like this, I think that had they chosen Vlady it would not have been a wrong choice by no means was he undeserving but I'm glad they gave it to Ohtani because he the most valuable an athlete could possibly be.

Same seasons today and Trout wins. Hindsight is 20/20

Sadly, WAR is being used as the B All end All; which is garbage since no one can agree on how to calculate it. As a rule I general am skeptical of analytics becuase I feel as though they are not as cut and dry as we'd been led to believe. I can look at the same number you look at and draw a completely different conclusion. For example many people look at on base percentage and use it as a measurement of hitting and argue that good hitters have higher onbase percentages. I look at it differently. I see it as a measurement of what kind of hitter you have. High onbase percentage indicate more patient hitters not neccesarilhy betters. Lower Onbase percentage indicate more agressive hitters. In my opinion, any stat that is open to opinion isn't useful. In addition to that other stats, like slugging percentage, have a built in bias. That is a problem. Ask any scientist and they will tell you that bias has a way tarnishing your result and has the ability to skewer your results. Because of that most scientists and researchers go out of thier way to eliminate bias. Not sabermetricians. For whatever reason they seem to either refuse to see the bias of slugging percentage or refuse to acknowledge it since they have embraced the state and used it (along with on-base percentage) as a be all end all measure of hitting even though it has a habit of elevating bad hitters such as JOey Gallo and deflating good hitters like Miguel Andujar. That makes it a worthless statistic which should not be used at all. Yet the sabermetrics community is willing to embrace these measures;; which shows how bad they guys are at reseach. I wouldn't trust them to conduct an opinion poll let alone evaluate the MVP.

this was one of the most intresting races in recent history wich brings me to my point if judge reaches 60 hrs this yr will he win the mvp even if sho out wars him?

I don’t have a problem with Pudge winning the MVP. Yes the WAR difference is pretty huge (still less than Trout vs Miggy), but the value of having the best defensive catcher in the league be one of the best hitters in the league can’t be understated. A catcher’s value goes beyond their dWAR, simply because there’s so few catchers who can hit. If you can plug a great hitter into that spot on the field, it’s a boost to the rest of your lineup because it’s easier to find good hitters at other positions.

Ted Williams won the triple crown in 1942 and 1947. He also lead the league in runs, walks, OBP, Slugging, OPS, OPS+, and Total Bases both years. He didn't win the A.L. MVP in 1942 or 1947.

I still don’t know how you would not have over 300k when channels like iTalkStudios are much more popular with less than half the amount of effort

If Miggy was in a park with rational dimensions he would have had 60+. So there’s that

You got a player that gets the triple crown and leads his team to the World Series. See Ted Williams won the Triple Crown twice, but the Sox dint make the post season. Frank Robinson and Carl Yaz, got their triple crowns and led their teams to the World Series. And that’s why they won MVP.

Even if miggy didn’t win triple crown he still would’ve won mvp he definitely deserved it

It makes me feel so old to see how young miggy looks in most of these screenshots and clips.

lmao ain’t this so ironic this is kind of happening this year☠️ we got judge with 60 home runs maybe able to get 61 or more and then also a chance at the triple crown and then shohei ohtani being one of the better pitchers this year and an awesome batter. Another controversial finish for the books

Ima rays fan so I’m really unbiased imo if a triple crown is won as a hitter that person deserves an MVP no matter what (as long as not strictly DH as I don’t think DH players should win an MVP due to them not playing in the field ever

Pitchers should be considered for the MVP award when they're having a historic season or the position player pool is weak for the season.

The games in September are the ones you remember

The award is ‘Most Valuable Player’ not ‘Best Offensive Performer’. Just make two separate awards so everyone is happy.

the answer to the question, “should miggy be exonerated for changing positions” is yes, first of all. and second, needs to be worded differently. more like “should miggy be exonerated from going to first base to the most difficult position to play in baseball”. miggy deserved the mvp and that is that. tight ends dont run the ball for a reason.

Do 2017 MVP next

5 seconds in and i already like the video

That's a good example of why I get confused with WAR. Miggy with the traditional numbers way ahead of him 🔥 +14 HR, +56 RBI and incredible +13 2B... And still behind him in new generation stats. Wow 😳

I think I would’ve picked Cabrera. It’s a triple crown!

I don’t care how good trout was. If you win the triple crown you deserve to win the MVP award

So w sabermetrics..only good defensive players can win?

The 2000 NL MVP was the most egregious. Todd Helton was the best player (and it wasn't even close) yet finished 5th in the voting.

Also Miggy owes the triple crown to Prince's protection

Personally, my triple crown is Walks/Triples/Stolen Bases. And before you tell me those are 3 completely arbitrary stats..... 😐

Considering the standings and the first triple crown winner I still believe Miguel Cabrera was the right answer here.

I still would’ve picked miggy ,he played a whole season while trout missed like 20 games

It’s ok, trout would make up for this and go on to win his own contentious mvp in 2019.

I feel like another thing that should be taken into consideration is your team should be in the race to make the playoffs. That’s why I don’t think Ohtani shoulda won in 2021, cuz even with him and his stellar season the angels still sucked. It shoulda been Vladdy who almost won the triple crown and kept the blue jays playoff chances alive til the last game even tho they came up one game short. Without Vladdy, the blue jays wouldn’t have been in that position which is ultimately why he deserves it. To me MVP means where would your team be without you, not necessarily who had the best season

WAR is designed to maximize 5 tools as some traditional MVP winners lacked some tools. Plus WAR is not consistent when it comes to its calculation as you can see 1W difference from fgraph to baseball reference. If WAR was the ultimate stat that determines the player's value, we don't even need to vote for MVP as we just need the spreadsheet. But that is not fun for fans and that's now how sports in general should be evaluated also. Trout is been the golden boy of WAR and he has been the best in baseball past decade but let's not diminish Miggy's peak as he was the bridge between Pujols to Trout for the best player in baseball.

I think that the trout stats are too specific using language like he’s the “first cf with 10 war since willie mays” is too specific because what about other positions or even other outfield positions. Cabrera won the triple crown by beating out every other eligible hitter in the 3 categories

Ivan Rodriguez >>> Pedro Martinez Catcher > Any Position Player Catcher >>>>>>>>>> A Pitcher

Had the Angel's made the playoffs that MVP race would have been a hell of lot closer, triple crown or not. Unfortunately, for all this high-caliber seasons, Trout has decided to doom himself in shitty Angel's teams. Hes only played in the post season once. Decision making similar to Ichiro who wasted his prime seasons on a loser mariner franchise (they fell into oblivion after 2001).

Do 2017 AL MVP next

Controversial would've been if Trout wins it......nothing controversial about the MVP to the guy who accomplished a triple crown and put his team in the playoffs

I have a more interesting MVP debate. How about the 2021 MVP. I do not take anything away from Ohtani whatsoever, the man had a historic season. Isn’t the MVP award about being the MVP of your team ? The Angels we’re trash with or without Ohtani, he made no difference to their success because the team was not successful. The Blue Jays however would not have contended for the post season if not for Vladdy Which player was more valuable last season

Defense is extremely overrated in baseball especially in war. There’s a few positions that have higher defensive responsibilities but that’s it’s.

Zack hample at 2:31

breh if you win the triple crown you should get the mvp no questions asked especially playing out of position

IMO. The MVP Should never be given to a players who team didn't make the playoffs. If you want to create a new award for the BEST player in the MLB for the NL/AL then go ahead that'd make more sense, but when the award is the Most VALUABLE Player, to be that implies that the outcome of that teams season drastically changes if that individual player doesn't perform like they did. trouts absolutely brilliant, but his team doesn't make the playoffs whether or not he's on the team. Ohtani is that rare exception with his abilities. but if you're team is horrible and doesn't make the playoffs your season is moot because they definitely weren't going to make it if you were there. There's been a handful of MVPs from non playoff teams and it just seems odd to me, just create a "Best player in each league" award and it solves these problems of being controversial or not.

Didn’t Miggy lead Trout in pretty much every offensive category that year? From what I remember, it was a question of if Trout could win because he was more well-rounded but Miggy literally won the triple crown.

Another way to look at value is through "Win Probability Added"... Though even this stat can be ambiguous. If we look at strict WPA... Trout led MLB with 5.3, Cabrera had 4.8. However, if it's divided by aLI... Which removes the context of the plate appearances, Cabrera wins 5.9 to 5.8. Additionally, if cWPA...Probability added to winning a championship.. is considered, Cabrera wins again with 4.4% compared to Trout's 3.6%. No matter which way its sliced, even through a modern lens, it's a very close decision.

Cabrera was on a better team

Kinda funny how a recovering addict/alcoholic drank to much caffeine. Must have been making a lot of meetings

I’d agree I think Cabrera deserved it

im a super analytical guy, but miggy deserved it, historical things liike that should be acknowledged, even if another player was better

The thing about trout being a better fielder is crap to be an outfielder you need to run fast and know how to catch a pop fly

This is such a tough topic for me, as well as the 2013 AL MVP vote too. I'm a lifelong Tiger's fan and love Miggy, but I don't know what the answer is on the MVP for 2012. The significance of what Miggy did for baseball can't be overstated, but Trout was incredible, posting the best WAR by a rookie position player ever. Really I think that both truly deserved it, a year for a co MVP if ever there were one. 2013 on the other hand, I think Trout probably should have won even though Miggy had become the best hitter on the planet. That said I'm happy Miggy won.

Cabrera had 60 more rbi 14 more homers and his ops was better come on

Call me old school but I feel like pitchers should be precluded from winning MVP. In my eyes the CY Young is MVP for pitchers and MVP should be reserved for the best position player.

Bad analysis on the pitching part. Cy Young is for Pitching not the MVP The ones that have Won MVP should not have . But Pedro is the most deserving Especially that didn’t Win MVP

Manny Ramirez was the real MVP on this one 9:06

Cabbera deserved it more