At first when we saw Messer I thought that he would be rykard pre eaten xD I still find it kind of lacking that we didn’t end up getting any other of the known Demi gods as bosses and we didn’t even fight oke for miquella because he was already a full god at that time I think AND he basically just hangs on radahns back and fucks us up with light magic ala prince Lothric style. Maybe it would be cool do see Godwynn or the gloam eyes queen or something like that but I think this will just be the future after the ending and the dlc is still before we get one ending in the timeline so yeah. Maybe in Elden ring 2
Also the fact that the snake is the symbol of the Undead since it represents their gluttony to consume the souls of beings greater than themselves. It very much fits with the themes of conquest shown by Messmer
@omerozel4716 I had no idea it existed (those freaking Mausoleum Knights never dropped it), but still, I feel like this is a more evident reference, given the firey edge of the eye socket. The greatshield feels like a reference to Berserk, given the importance of the Eclipse in both the manga and this game.
man i love the little shakiness/trembling in his voice when he goes "wilt thou be taken in the jaws of the abyssal serpent" the voice actor has done a phenomenal job
@@Ray_diant it's probably because thats not something Messmer wants to way, It was probably a command, the mask he had to take as the impaler for Marika
That one serpent is a little funny to me. As far as I could tell, it did not seem directly connected to him like the others, instead just hanging out on the ceiling. I wonder if it came out of him at some point, like the other 'serpent nest' comment suggests.
Makes sense. The Crucible is already associated with reptiles and snakes, and now one of her children is spontaneously generating heretical things that she's trying to bury, so she shoves a seal to suppress them into his head and ships him off to The Land Of Shadow for a revenge psi-op. Dude was both powerful and bad for the optics for her reign.
Messmer was probably her first child and he was cursed by something that was worshipped by those she hated. She reacted less poorly to her last two cursed children even though one of them was the potential vessel of an Outer God.
Or maybe she was scared for him, not of him. Remember what happened when Black Knight commander Andreas learned about Messmer's serpentine nature? He rebelled against him. Imagine what Erdtree elite would have done to Messmer if they knew he is a Base Serpent.
@@ZeroOmega-vg8nqhe WHAT?! I was far too concerned with chopping at his tail with my anti-dragon katana to get a good look. Either that or getting rammed into the area walls
@@kirbyis4ever bayle is how we finally have confirmation that he was why placidusaax lost his 2 heads. my guess. placi did the kind ghidorah bite attack then bayle used his messed up bone wing to cut them
I wonder if Messmer is like a snake nest, "birthing" serpents who chew their way out. His two snakes (or one two-headed snake) seem to be a separate entity from the abyssal serpent Messmer is turning into, and this thing in his eye looks like a nest full of baby snakes. Creepy af
The winged serpent serves to hold back the base serpent according to the winged serpent helm. Honestly it puts a whole different view on Rykard's serpent cult because the manor's old inhabitants seemed to worship the winged serpent, it's even backed by the fact the helm apparently also nerfs Messmer in phase 2
@@thecommentguy9380 Oh that's an interesting detail! I did notice the winged serpent gargoyles and filigree in the churches in the Shadowkeep Church District. Now I'm gonna go to the Volcano manor and check their decorations and compare. Another interesting to note is that there two Virgin Abductors near one of the castles, where they seem to be killing deserters. So either precursor to Rykard using them, or Rykard was aware and provided Messmer with some of his Abductors in the Shadow war campaign.
@@Elementroar as far as we know, Marika actively kept the shadow land and Messmer a secret. So these were probably troops she requisitioned to reinforce her son's forces, and even creates elixirs herself to help heal her son until probably the day she shattered the Elden Ring
@@thecommentguy9380 We do know from Gaius’ remembrance that apparently, he and Messmer acted as elder brothers to Radahn, so Radahn knows Messmer exists. Messmer’s spears are also the ones that are impaling the frozen Fire Giants in the mountains, so he was present there too. In the old colosseum scripts, the Lion Guardians (who we now know were likely actually the beings the Dancing Lion Divine Beasts were based on because they have shaved horns on their back) would fight against the Duelist Champion NPCs that have the snake imagery and gear on. It’s now h the theorized that the old colosseum script was depicting a re-enactment of the Shadow War by using the captured POW Lion Guardians and forcing them to fight against prisoners fitted with snake imagery to represent Messmer, just like how in Rome, re-enactments of famous battles were depicted in the colosseum by pitting gladiators against each other. And even more tellingly, several of the Duelist NPCs can actually summon snakes out of their body, suggesting they WERE Messmer troops but were treated as convicts and ‘unclean’, yet also allowed and expected to guard Erdtree burial sites (so suggesting they still hold some respectful rank). I don’t think Messmer’s existence himself was kept secret, but rather he was declared a traitor and possibly some story about him staying in the Lands of Shadow to rule it as his own Kingdom was cooked up, hence why the snake is the symbol of traitors to the Erdtree.
@@Elementroar honestly there's definitely some level of contradiction here. Because on one hand some of the descs say Marika did care about her son, but on the other he is seen as reviled traitor. Though by description of his outfit he did tell his mother to direct all hatred torwards him, so perhaps she did take that to heart to paint him as a villain as he faithfully fulfill her wishes
The VA for Messmer is incredible, honestly alot of them are! The Intro Narrator and his magnificent "Rise now, ye Tarnished" or how he screams Gideon's name... Ranni and her gentle yet sharp, cute and creepy voice tone and vocabulary... And last but not least, "Mongrel intruder, thou'rt Tarnished, it seemeth" and the way he goes through a whole character development in a single fight when he finally decides he had enough from both us and his mother, his voice alone express so much its incredible!
indeed, a certain item description of messmers armor or incants state that he bore a vision of flame like his little sister. And melina is the only being that uses the "minor erdtree" incantation (during the morgott fight) found in marikas village (shaman village). This is basically 100% proof that melina is a demigod and messmers sister. i wish we knew more about melina though.
@@Blackblade-NeXimo I know miyzaki personally doesn’t like sequels,and also supposedly said this is the one time they’d do open world…but it feels clear a LOT was left open ended for a sequel. A lot of the base game stuff was never answered/addressed further. Obviously most notably godwyn/Melina/(Wether she is or isn’t the gloam eyed queen),who really was the full orchestrator of the night of black knives and why did seem to go wrong? And the DLC adds now the “base serpent”,more lore for the crucible and the “spiral” and of course the “god gate” and such. I feel even the biggest lore buffs won’t have answers to a ton of the new things the DLC added…and still won’t have any concrete ideas on previous unanswered questions.
Yeah it appears as though the union of Radagon & Marika birthed not only Melania and Miquella but also Messmerand Melina. Radagon & Ranalla Ranni, Radahn, Rykard Marika & Godfrey - Morgot, Mohg, Godwin It seems that the first letters of the parents always indicate the children’s names. Classic George RR Martin (also his initials 😂) Godwin being an outlier and also one the only one of Marika children not to be born with a curse and also isn’t born from two gods. Ranni Rykard and Radahn were born curseless but they were born of Radagon. May end Godwin got most of his genes from Godfrey. With Marikas genes being dominant as 2 of the 3 kids got most their DNA from her This isn’t fact this is just me trying to make sense of things lol correct or agree with me if you’d like.
remember that unsettling scene of "annihilation" where a dude opens the other and his guts were moving like snakes? well, i guess this is how it feels for messmer... crawling under his skin, inside his head, inside his guts.
That’s really cool, thanks for sharing. I wish there were more interaction between DLC and base game. Like imagine using messemer’s kindling for the giant forge instead. Surely that should work given how Melina is implied to be his sister.
@@yanli111 I got her to appear by talking to Shabriri and then immediately teleporting to Messmer's boss door grace. There was a talk to Melina option for that, but it's old voicelines.
@rafsandomierz5313 Yea, I figured it was because all the graces in the game most likely follow the same code or whatever. Just a funny little oversight
@@Dolphin-E That would be a difference then, rykard's hands are the people he ate, messmer has no such process we know of. It's like saying grafted scion and revenant are similar.
Messmer was just minding his own business and when the Tarnished showed, they told him to get on his knees. He retorted that he was not their mother last night. The Tarnished took exception to that.
In the original video you did on Messmer I wished you'd focused a bit on his eye. I'm really glad you dedicated this video to the most haunting aspect of his design. ^^
The interesting thing to me is that I believe it's in the item description that the abyssal serpent EATS the fire. Like so, isn't that a 'good' thing in the Golden Order? That the abyssal serpent is actually keeping the 'fire' in check by consuming it? It's funny if the snake was actually a 'good' thing but you know, suppressing it down and sealing it, and mistreating its host, could've kinda warped it further into an actual fire serpent.
Maybe the serpent was a fail-safe to prevent the burning of the Erdtree? Maybe Marika sealed Messmer away specifically to allow the tree to be burned eventually? We will never know.
Is he a child of Radagon tho? They seemed pretty insistent that Messmer is Marika's son, but there's no mention to Radagon being his father, even if the red hair should be a blatant connection. The Remembrance of Commander Gaius says Messmer was "as an older brother" to Radahn - the word choice here seem to mean he's not Radahn's brother, but acted and was beloved like one, and if he's older than our infamous general, than he was around before Radagon married Marika. St. Trina's existent heavily implies Radagon is like her, an emotion/concept of Marika that she discarded. Maybe Messmer was born before Marika split Radagon from herself?
@@Hennichell So remember that it is unclear if the children of Radagon are aware of his true nature as Marikas other half. So from Gaius and Radahn point of view Messmer could be like an older brother whereas we know the truth or the matter and that they are more than just step siblings. Radahn, Ranni and Rykard are Demigods plain and simple as Radagon is a God in another guise. The flaming red hair Messmer inherited is one clue to his parentage but when combined with his cursed nature it’s too much of a coincidence, just like Malenia and Miquella that when children are born of a single God they are vulnerable to being cursed. Take note that although Mogh and Morgott are indeed omen, this is only viewed as a curse by the Golden Order and in other cultures and historical periods this was viewed as a blessing instead. The only confused bit for me is it’s clear Messmer and Radahn had a relationship, so Messmer was clearly around not only after Godfreys term as Elden Lord but also after the Golden Order- Carian war, so there should be more references for him in the same way there was lots of references to the Nameless King in Dark Souls. But there isn’t.
@@TheGamingStorage69420 Italian Italian or American Italian? Is he holding a cannoli? Originally "Mario the Smotherer" on account of the way he drowned pasta in marinara sauce got shortened to "Messmer".
Thanks I always wanted to get a better look of what was in Messmer's eye. I think it would of been cool if what Messmer's "eye" would be a serpent's eye made of his flame
this scene in particular was the creepiest of all cutscenes in fromsoft's games. What's hiding behind that socket? the game literally keeps you in the dark. **spoilers** . (I thought the game would reveal something more about this 'base serpent' aspect of messmer (much like an outer god - similar to malenia's rot), but I guess leaving it at that makes it stranger all the more.
Not really it was just the Children between Marika and Radagon that were cursed at birth and sadly the Royal Omen brothers but thats due to the divine influence of the Crucible ... the rest were basically normal
@@Old-Deus I knew somebody would say this... I didn't want to clarify "marika/ Radagon" cause I didn't want the post to be long since this is just a youtube post.
@Old-Deus And ironically omen are only considered grotesque curse people by the golden order. When in actuality they are closer to the divinity of the primordial erdtree.
When I first saw the second phase cutscene for messmer, I thought that there was a tiny snake head glaring at you through the empty eye socket. I thought it was the "base serpent" but I guess I was imagining things 🤷♂️, would've been cool if they did that though.
The fact that From Software made such minute detail in a character model that is impossible to be noticed during gameplay or cinematic, makes you wonder if they did this because they know there will be fans like Bonfire and Zully the Witch who will detail strip their characters and find these Easter eggs. Regardless if they do this for the fans or for themselves, it shows how much they love their craft.
@@VincitOmniaVeritas7 I agree. It’s difficult to see in a cutscene. It’s not intended to be seen by the general audience. Instead of them making these details for dataminers like Bonfire and Zillow, I instead think they make these high quality details for themselves. Even with the smallest details, I just think Miyazaki is obsessed with them. He’s the type of brainiac to care about small details that flesh out his worlds in their character designs. I don’t think at all that these are intended for dataminers. It’s like drawing a knight, by hand. You have all the important details down, but small details such as drawing/adding more shading on the inside of the Knight’s armour are cool details that may please the artist themselves more than it does the consumer
I think From (especially Miyazaki himself) just likes details. Often times auteurs care so much about details that they don't care if other people see/notice or not. Kubrick once demanded a green table on the war room scene in Dr.Strangelove even though the movie is black and white
i bet fromsoft adds these small details because they know people will go and look at the models in extreme depth like this and appreciate all the tiny details
No wonder Marika locked him up and sealed his eyes... she was scared from the God devouring serpents and the flame that can burn Erdtrees and sealing Trees! I bet Rykard's snake came from him aswell
I think messmer can see out that eye actually, the red dots of the miniature snakes resemble the eyes that the large snake has dotted across it's whole body
The commonalities between Marika’s children’s names aren’t just in the opening letters. It’s in the nature of the consonants themselves. Mohg, Morgott, and Godwin all have a combination of hard and soft consonants “M”, “R”, “W”, and “N” are soft, “G”, “D”, and “T” are all hard. The former flow into their subsequent vowels, the latter stop before proceeding. This combination reflects the combination descended from Godfrey and Marika. Marika’s children with Radagon (herself) are almost entirely of soft consonants. The “Q” in Miquella is the hardest consonant between him, Messmer, and Malenia. Messmer is very likely a child of Marika and Radagon, as he shows very little trace of Radagon’s hard consonants “D” and “G”.
Maybe it's a concept similar to Jörmungandr from norse mithology, a snake born from a god, was thrown by Odin in the ocean, circles the earth (base serpent), destined to kill the other gods.
I am beginning to believe there's a whole other Serpent deity that lives underground found so deep, so otherworldly and so powerful that the light and influence of the Erdtree and Scadutree cannot penetrate. Its weird there's not a whole lot of giant serpent enemies in the game but for some reason the ones that do are attached to demigods. I can only speculate this is what we will explore in the sequel if there is any, the abyssal serpent and whatever serpent lives beneath the Erdtree might be the inhabitants long before the Erdtree came to be, likewise the ancient dragons and the ancient serpents probably fought the ownership of the land because the dragons ruled the sky and serpents the underground, and Marika (like usual) probably had children with it.
My brother had the brightness higher than normal, and to me watching his gameplay, it looked like worms inside his eye socket, the fact that they're actually snakes is even creepier 😱
