The Dangers of Liturgy Shopping (Trent Horn) 

So trueeee

"nah mate, I'm just a regular Australian Eastern Catholic, a traditional rite for Australia" xD

They will also never get better as we have seen.

Some of the liturgical abuses I hear about are the equivalent to the priest yawning while sitting. I question a lot of people’s liturgical abuses I’ve been to a lot of churches in a lot of states and it’s just not as prevalent as people say.

King

I have never seen liturgical abuse or innovations at any NO and I have been to many all over North America

@@Electric_ You must have a low bar.

How many people actually do 1 though? Is that an actual thing or a construct?

@@Thunderjerkyit is a thing. I don’t think common but certain (unstable) persons flip flop around, I’ve seen it. One week they’re Lutheran, then they’re in RCIA, they quit and are Orthodox catechumens, a month later they’re wearing tweed and talking about Pusey and AngloCatholicism.

Same.

You aren't wrong for looking for a reverent liturgy. Your instinct to find a better parish is correct. It is the right of the faithful to have access to a reverent liturgy, and orthodox preaching.

I'm literally in the same position. Saw a lot of irreverent treatment of the Eucharist in my Diocese, and it just made me flee. I now attend a Byzantine Catholic Parish and most of our community are people fleeing from diocesan parishes.

I've got three parishes in town, and only one of them are in English, so I attend that one.

What do you mean by irreverence and "abuses"? (Genuine question, doing my best to learn about the Eucharist and understand proper/healthy/reverent communion)

Yes, but the TLM is a lot safer, because it is very strict, and it's not theologically ambiguous like the NO. Also the sense of continuity with the past is naturally much stronger in TLM. Not to mention the attitude that it shapes - towards God rather than people. And it doesn't hide the important passages like 1 Corinthians 11:27-32...

Yes. People shouldn’t be trying to shape the liturgy. They should be letting the liturgy shape them.

@@damnedmadman I see what you're saying. I'm in sympathy with much of it. However, I don't think the Novus Ordo is theologically vague as much as it is liturgically vague, and that mostly because the rite is not rigorously protected. So much depends on how the priest celebrates it. A strict adherence to the words of the rite and a pivot to ad orientum worship would solve much of that. Restoring altar rails and kneeling while receiving would complete the transformation. I don't see any of that happening for the foreseeable future.

@@johnsposato5632 Well, I'd say it is also theologically vague. For example the Good Friday prayer for Jews is no longer a straightforward prayer for their conversion. The shifting of the "mysteium fidei" (mystery of the faith) and the following prayers suggest that the mystery is not about the Eucharist, and that we're awaiting Jesus' coming, which implies that He's not here, when actually He's right now at the altar. Of course there's more. There's also this clearly Protestant tendency to reduce the role of the Priest, from "Persona Christi" to a mere leader, the laxity regarding sacred vessels, etc. This all combined subconsciously conveys a really destructive message, changing the overall perception of sacredness, transcendence, and reverence.

I have to disagree. If given the right instructions, one can absolutely be done more reverently than another. TLM, for example, forbids liturgical dance - dance that literally has young girls and women in skin tight dresses, prancing before the altar of God. Come on.

Trent is my fellow Novus Ordo Bro 😎

^What this guy said. Trent has said he went to Eastern liturgy for awhile, but he's currently attending Novus Ordo.

I like the Novus Ordo myself, and people who don’t like it should consider volunteering in their Parish and making it better. Music stinks? Volunteer. OCIA class is mediocre? Become a Catechist. Youth groups are bad? Help the youth minister. The NO is where most new converts are and where “trads” can have the biggest impact in most cases.

Many love the Traditional Latin. Only it's not available. The Eucharist. That's it. Many can not home school. Or make pilgrimages. France Rome ect give me any day the mother of seven. Left widow. Never left home town. But prays family rosary teaches Fatima. Get off your high horse Really want to evangelize. Get off self righteous high horse.

Matt Fradd. Self righteous. He has one judge. It's not us

In terms of liturgy, you're correct. People leave Eastern Orthodoxy in favor of Eastern Catholicism for other reasons.

Satan is more bent on the West because he knows it's THE Church.

people have totally converted from eastern orthodox to Catholicism. I don't think they were making fun. I think they just see the irony in leaving more and more behind just to "get more out of the liturgy".

@@idunnknow7they’re an absolute minority. Eastern Catholicism by itself is a tiny tiny ultra minority, so to think that of the 16 million Eastern Catholics there are tons of Orthodox converts is absurd.

They only go on liturgy shopping in the US. Good luck finding that phenomenon in Latin America, which has its fair share of Melkites, Maronites and so on. It wouldn't happen without social media and fringe spiritual influencers, again a US-born phenomenon.

Why does it have to be either/or? Can’t Mass be a worshipping of God that lifts up the soul toward Him?

It's about both, pretty sure

@@JoshRueff ​​⁠no, the primary function is worshipping God. That’s not exclusive to having an uplifting religious experience, but that experience is necessarily secondary to the primary function which is, again, worshipping God

​@@toddbyrd9071 The primary function is worshipping God, yes, but a huge part of that is the bride - us - joining with Christ, the Groom; the gracious lowering of the Spirit of Christ (and his flesh and blood) to humanity and the lifting up of our souls to join with him, right? That's the whole point of the Eucharist if I understand it correctly. It's reflected in Christ's (and now our) use of bread and wine; the seed ground down into flour to make bread, the endosperm, is the masculine, the grape crushed to produce wine is the ovary of the grape plant; the feminine. The Church is the bride, Christ is the groom, Eucharist is the joining of opposites - the Divine and Humanity, Heaven and Earth - in the highest way aside from theosis itself I suppose. It's the central act of worship designed by God to lower himself so that man might be lifted up.

@@JoshRueff even in that case, “lifting us up” is clearly contingent, and thus, secondary to worshipping God. There is a clear and definitive hierarchy to the ends of the Mass. worship of God is number one. Viewing the Mass through the lens of “well, this helps this person feel closer to God” is inverting the hierarchy

Yeah that's the thing the feelings part, be careful of it

@HabibJackson I guess only what you feel is correct and everyone else is wrong. Thanks for the lesson.

@@MisterFluffyBags "Every man is free to embrace and profess that religion which, guided by the light of reason, he shall consider true"

I don't really think this is true. The trend in liturgy since the ICEL changes has been to follow the rubrics more closely, and certainly the guitars are starting to shrink in number.

​@@admiralbob7797 I agree, there are way more reverent liturgies now than they were, say 15-20 years ago

@@admiralbob7797 speaking from my experience only I'm sure it's different in other diocese

What do you mean by liturgical "abuse"? (Genuine question, trying to learn about the Eucharist and liturgy)

@JoshRueff most of the time it means I don’t like that

Yes, he mentions it in the video

Trent goes to the Novus Ordo, but it is true Matt goes to Byzantine Liturgies

@@tusolusdominusTrent has gone to an eastern liturgy for his entire adult life. He’s recently started attending in N.O. Due to pushback, and because his children attend a Catholic school where the mass is N.O.

Yes, this is something commendable that the Church can re-learn from. God bless you and I pray that one day the Great Schism will meet its end and our two traditions will come together as one as the Body of Christ is meant to be. I must respectfully say, though, submit to Rome 💪😎✝ God bless you, brother.

Amen

No thanks

21st century hymns didn’t exist in the Early Church.

Be real Dwight, most of the hymns are from the 1970s

@@dwightschrute900 What's your point? Our Mass should be exactly like that of the Early Church?

Then this discussion isn’t addressing you personally. You are where you are for the right reasons I would think. There are those out there that are scandalized by certain practices or church “music” or bad priests/homilies that makes one spiritually unwelcome and they look for something more “authentic” for their own spirituality. One has to find that balance between finding something spiritually fulfilling without condemning other traditions versus something that is superficially (relatively speaking) not to your liking leading you to jump ship unnecessarily.

Agree

When’s your next move?

LMAO STAY MAD

@@JJ-zr6fu Don't plan on moving, only ever had to the one time due to the sad state of shepherding in the Latin Church, I found a very loving community that has come together to build up and live out a lifestyle geared towards holiness and authentic catholicity. ❤️

@@Eviac wonderful, very happy for you :)

I did. It obviously wasn’t just the liturgy, but the faith of the church. Why do I have to drive by 100’s of Catholic Churches to go to the one TLM church in a major metropolitan city? That isn’t one true faith. This lead me down to research that the Catholic Church has significantly innovated while the Orthodox have the same faith as they did in the 1st millennium.

@@randomjake1488 but that proves my point that it wasn’t just the liturgy but something else too. Anyway, hope you come back to the one true Catholic Church and go to confession “Jake 1488” bozo

@@randomjake1488 Unfortunately, the Orthodox have shifted their beliefs on a number of topics related to moral theology.

⁠@@randomjake1488why does every country have its own flavor of “Orthodox”? That isn’t one true faith.

@@randomjake1488which of the orthodox are you referring to? Each country has its own version, and there’s 3 major unique ones with very different beliefs. Catholicism is the only one where the liturgy in one country is the same as the liturgy in every other country, other than the language.

He’s saying that’s good and optimal, not wrong

You seem to imply that both NO and TLM are equally good, that i doesn't matter which you attend, as if it were just a matter of personal taste. Well, it's not. There are serious problems with NO that cannot be ignored.

@@damnedmadman Problems as in liturgical abuses? Or problems like it is intrinsically wrong?

@@Cklert Intrinsically. I recommend you read the "Short Critical Study of the Novus Ordo Missae" by cardinals Ottaviani and Bacci from 1969 - it's widely available online. Also something that isn't mentioned there, but is very telling: The NO's 3-year lectionary contains many times more of the Bible than the old Missal, but somehow the essential Eucharistic passage of 1 Corinthians 11:27-32 has been completely cut out, it's never read - while in TLM it's read twice a year. Now think why...

This minimalist idea is terrible. God and your spiritual life deserve better

To take that to some extremes... why stay in the Roman Church? The East has valid sacraments. If the choir is singing Taylor Swift, there are pride flags everywhere, and the priest is preaching about the necessity of the divine Earth Mother but he follows all the proper rubrics of consecration then voila, Jesus is there.

I mean.... I wouldn't say no to smells and bells...

@@lukebrown5395 “Luxury Traditionalism™️” is, from my observations, a common sentiment and completely left me alienated from Trad, Inc.

@@atomiclead8647 fortunately for me at least my priest won’t deny communion kneeling.

So is Matt

What’s that?

And a coverso...

I totally agree with this comment. Parish shopping most often shows a real lack of trust in God's Providence, and an unwillingness to accept the Cross. We want everything on our terms and so easily succumb to pride.

Theres no reason to not offer God better if it is available. If your local parish isn't offering proper worship to God and not helping your sanctification, don't go down with the ship just because, especially if you're being there also subjects your children to it and forms them (and you) in banal non sacred practice of religion

@@bwfackler Possibly, but it obviously depends on what is meant by "banal non sacred" religious practice. It's a very modern, American, and I daresay Protestant idea that we have the "right" to "shop around" based on minor liturgical preferences. We should also admit that, even if the externals are very beautiful, we are putting ourselves in an exalted role as judge of the Church that Christ founded (hence, the real temptation to pride). Just something to be aware of . Peace.

@AT-io7ms what is a minor liturgical preference? Cardinal ratzinger himself referred to the novus ordo mass itself as a banal product of the moment. So i guess thats one option to mean by the word banal

@@bwfackler Source?

Thanks brother!

Thank you!

My experience also.

​@@dwightschrute900😊

Because there were so many parishes (not all) where people were not paying attention at Mass (not just the rosary, there were people wandering around, talking, or leaving to take a smoke break), there were places where Low Mass was the only Mass ever celebrated, rather than Sung or High Mass, there were places where the music practically too over the Mass and was made the center of attention, and the catechesis regarding the Mass (and other things) was quite poor. The reform was meant to solve those problems. That's not what you get at most TLM parishes now. They reformed.

I think you meant the Second Vatican Council? If so, the Council Fathers didn't call for the revolution that has been implemented afterwards. The council only allowed some changes, but people were expected to know the Mass in Latin, and Gregorian Chant was supposed to stay as the main style. They have mostly rejected the NO when they saw it. But the Pope Paul VI pushed it nonetheless...

No, I mean the Council of Trent. Not V2.

@@DominicMazoch Ok, then in my understanding it was because the Protestant revolution also called for dramatic changes in the liturgy, so the Church had to protect itself from the heretic influences on its rites, hence the unification. In such times it is important to unite under a single banner to confirm our allegiance to the Church. So the whole Church has been obliged to adopt the unified Roman rite. It wasn't such a big deal as these rites were quite similar.

@@DominicMazoch Ah, sorry for the misread. Trent was called in response to the Protestant Revolution. But not strictly in opposition to it. The Protestants did make some good points regarding corruption and lack of discipline, abuse of indulgences and other religious things, and the Council of Trent meant to clean those things up. The Church can stand up easier to external threats when she has internal integrity . One of those abuses was bishops and abbots basically doing a build-your-own-liturgy, and making their own local Rite based on the Gregorian Rite (now called the Tridentine after Trent), but incorporating their own ideas of what good practices would be. Some of those were probably heretical, others irreverent, and others ok, but not adding value, and not stemming from Tradition and Divine Revelation. It had been going on for some time. The idea was to get rid of those accretions and return to traditional Masses, defined as anything older than 300 years. So, many new, local Rites were nixed, but the Gregorian, Sarum, Mozarabic, Braga, and other Rites, including many particular to various religious orders, and obviously the Eastern Rites, were kept. It was about antiquity and Tradition, not uniformity.

You’re a heretic if your think the ordinary form of the mass is slop

kek these people are total worms

Are you saying Novus Ordo come with the slop and all the N.O. mass is sloppy?

Chad yes

Excellent comment. Thank you for the Catechism reference.

Just read it at your suggestion. 775 is stating that the primary purpose of the liturgy is communion with God, and from that comes communion with others. If we miss the primary end, the secondary end is not even met. In other words, you can't put the cart before the horse. Seeking a better liturgy, even if it is a distance away, is a commendable effort if one is able to better achieve communion with God. That segment of the catechism does not suggest at all that you are "turning your back" on your local community if there are liturgical abuses at your local parish that you are avoiding.

@@rickygcfo liturgical abuses are one thing, but liturgy that the individual perceives as poorly done might be another. If a small parish (or a large one) does not have good music or well-read scripture during mass, does that constitute abuse? In many ways, that is a parish that might need its parishioners all the more. It boils down to what is an abuse and what is not. Like I said, I don’t have answers, but we should be looking at the questions in a charitable mindset when considering the mass at a given parish.

Great comment indeed, To @rickygcfo, I don't mean to change your mind or pretend I have all the answers, but can I offer some things that I'm thinking about? Your communion with God is something between you and him. An attendee at mass can be reverent or irreverent in their heart, regardless of the liturgy. I understand that some may help you to do it better, but you can be joined to God even in a parish with "liturgical abuses". I say this, but I don't know what exactly you mean by liturgical abuses. Is something seriously wrong occurring or are you exaggerating? If something is really wrong, definitely contact your bishop, surely. A good point for leaving to go to a liturgy that you think is more reverent is that you think this liturgy is where people should go in general, and you're just setting an example. But you can also be a light to your parish, through love not judgement, and bless them and be blessed by them, understanding that they have wisdom to teach you too. You leaving won't actually fix any problems, it will only put the problems out of sight and out of mind. By staying, maybe you can make a positive impact, again, through love and humility, not looking down on them. Just some thoughts, it's a really tricky topic! I'll try to listen to where the Holy Spirit is calling me, you do too! Your ultimate decision needs to be what God is telling you to do, not just your opinion.

I appreciate the thoughtful comments both of you. First, as far as keeping a charitable mindset goes, charity is above all love for God. This would entail wanting him to be revered properly. It must not be conflated with just being nice to everybody, not saying that I am a curmudgeon, but a strict person with high standards is not automatically uncharitable. One liturgical abuse that is at just about every Novus ordo is communion in the hand. I am not judging others for receiving this way, but this began as an abuse in the 70s, and then out of frustration Pope Paul 6 granted an indult for it, and then later it was just codified. Similar thing happened with girl altar boys in the 90s, started with disobedience, grudging permission was granted, and now its the norm. At this point they are allowed, there is no sin on the parishioners for this, but it is just codified abuse. It serves to undermine the reverence of the liturgy. With regard to being a light to other parishioners, I don't want my kids growing up thinking that is normal. I have to raise them in a way where they are not confused about God and the reverence due to Him because the liturgy we attend has all these undermining things built in. Latin mass eliminates these problems. My Latin mass was cancelled by the bishop, now we attend a byzantine liturgy. I have friends who go to more local parishes, I am not judging them. It is insulting however when others make light of the very serious liturgical problems present in almost every Novus ordo by design, and then they victim blame by saying we are turning our back on the local parish.

Sadly I'm not traditional enough to drive 90 minutes to a TLM parish but that's the one that gets me. Our forefathers in faith were oftentimes martyred for keeping the old ways. Fast forward to today and Christians who want to do what our ancestors were ordered to risk martyrdom for are treated as dangerous radicals by so many in the church.

@@GremlinsAndGnomes exactly

TLM is only 500 years old. It's not millennia but I still agree with what you're generally saying

Real Vatican II has never been tried!

That’s what’s been happening at my parish. A lot of people have been stepping up to help our catechism classes, youth formation, ministry, bible knowledge, etc. become better and help everyone on their faith journey. Especially as we get new people, from cradle to convert Catholics coming in and wanting to be part of a community. I started helping at the CCE classes, joined a few groups, and will reach out to various ministries cause they always need volunteers. Those who just sit on the side lines complaining about things or run to their own little bubbles are missing out on a great experience to grow in their own faith as they walk alongside and help others. Easy to complain, much harder to roll up one’s sleeves and get to work making things better.

@@jendoe9436 for sure, and I find Priests often do listen and learn if you have good ideas. Deacons are often very powerful voices as well. I also have learned that some of the “normie” stuff that annoyed me had good reasons behind them and pure intentions, and it was probably right to keep them going for a little longer.

@@Electric_ for sure. And sometimes things just can’t be done a certain way because of general limitations and logistics. Incense isn’t too smokey at my church and is set for specific times, and that’s because we have a lot of elderly with breathing issues and the incense could cause too much flair up. A friend of mine who acolytes lit the charcoal a different way recently, and the entire little chapel for their mass service was oppressively doused in incense. Even I as a (mostly) healthy young adult can get light headed with too much smoke, and actually have a friend whose family is very sensative to strong scents and smells so a mass with incense can send them into a dangerous coughing fit. Growing up, I had noticed my church’s communion wine was very different from other places. I later learned it was a special grape juice blend with just a smidge of alcohol for liturgical purposes, and the reason for that is because the priest was a recovering alcoholic and daily consumption of the wine could tempt him to relapse. Some might consider that “invalid,” but it was approved by the Bishop and he was such a great priest overall that it didn’t really matter. Stuff like that I never would have learned or thought about if I didn’t let myself open up to others’ viewpoints and work on understanding where they were coming from. Just because one way works for me doesn’t mean it works for someone else, and it’s a bit selfish to think everything must be done *my way* all the time or it’s not considered “valid.” I’m sure there’s all sorts of characters from various walks of life who had strange customs and forms of worship glorifying God in Heaven right now. The Saints themselves were vastly different from each other, and still God loves and values each of them in their own unique way.

The Novus Ordo often is practiced worse than the Latin Mass by irreverent priests and parishioners due to apathy or a lack of information, speaking from experience. The Latin Mass has stricter rubrics with more prayers and invocations, so it is materially better in that sense. It's the historic liturgy of the Church of a thousand (and then some) years. Your dismissal of the Latin Mass and its attendees is sad, and I mean no disrespect. Most of those who attend the TLM, I assume, want to assist at a Mass that offers the best praise possible to God. I don't know why you uncharitably state that they must just dislike change and that everyone that attends the TLM is a borderline-schismatic. I attend an Anglican Ordinariate Mass. God bless you.

The novus ordo is deficient in its very nature. Not from Sacramental Grace, but from Actual Grace.

You’ll never have an issue finding a reverent and beautiful liturgy and community in a Orthodox Church

@@randomjake1488 I agree, my only issue is Toll Houses. As they show that salvation is works based.

@@bguinet Byzantine Catholic

It's almost entirely up to the priest.

I did. And then the priest was reassigned and the new pastor came in and undid everything.

Never trust an effeminate male.