The Dark Side of "Oklahoma" (Ft. ItsAnnaChloeM) 

Curly is absolutely the villain. Judd Fry is so obviously mentally disabled and has no idea how his actions are coming off to people. He mirrors the same toxic masculinity that everyone else around him exhibits but he doesn’t filter it in a way that is socially acceptable. As an autistic man myself I have been in similar situations as Judd where I tried to do what I thought was okay but didn’t understand the differences and all I can say is that I’m lucky to have learned and lucky to be alive. Judd never had a chance.

You were raised in a toxic culture? Where, in Nazi Germany, Stalin's Russia, Mao's China, Castro's Cuba? You don't know toxic, until you were in a death camp like Auschwitz! My friend's mother was there and even lived to tell about it.

@@sweeney60 You are ignoring the fact that Jud tried to kill Curly twice. Once with the Little Wonder and after the wedding when he pulled a knife on Curly. In the movie version, Jud also set fire to the haystack that both Curly and Laurie were on top of. Jud attacked Curly with a knife and tried to kill Curly. He died by falling on his own knife during the fight. Curly was defending himself against Jud. Fish's distortion revival totally changed the R&H musical by introducing a gun at the wedding and having Curly shoot Jud. Fish took it upon himself to totally change Oklahoma, hence it should have been called Noklahoma. It was also Carrie Meets Oklahoma.

@@maryleone2023 Totally agree!

While it seemed that way, the intention of the song was to be taken lightly, in a joking kind of way. Jud, himself is also singing the song which makes it funny. If Jud was not singing along and asked Curly to stop singing or asked him to get out during the song, then it would be seen as serious. The lines about the fingernails and running out of ice were meant to be humorous at the time and there was audience laughter during and after the song. The play opened on 3/31/1943. The nation was in the middle of WWII and Oklahoma was a smash hit ,running 2,212 performances. It was considered a musical comedy and there was a lot of laughter, much needed laughter, during a time of war. People needed a break from the war, and Oklahoma did the job. Ever hear of Kamikaze suicide Japanese pilots? That was real horror like the war. Not psyched up, faux outrage that is directed at Oklahoma!

It's funny, but very darkly funny. It's still one of my favourite songs in Oklahoma.

🎶 It was Toxic Masculinity all along 🎶

It was Barzini all along! ( The Godfather)

Toxic masculinity isn't the villain. It is in Carousel, but Hitler is the villain in Oklahoma!

Besides stating that the farmhouse fire "was no accident" Jud asks Ali Hakim if he has a "little wonder". Later, he buys the "little wonder" from Wil (who does not know it is a lethal weapon).He shows the little wonder to Curly and Aunt Eller stops Curly from looking into it (she was alerted to the danger by Hakim) Finally, Jud shows up after the wedding and while fighting with Curly, pulls a knife on him.( In the movie version he sets the haystacks on fire, as well as pulling the knife on Curly). Jud dies by falling on his own knife in every R&H production and revival except Daniel Fish' distortion. Btw, the Jud song was supposed to be comical. Jud himself is singing along which makes it funny. The lyrics are funny and the audience in 1943, who had a major war to worry, about thought the song was funny.

@@maryleone2023 Agree with everything else you said, but I remember watching the movie as a girl (on TV in the 70's), and the Poor Jud song left a very bad taste in my mouth about Curly as the leading man. I couldn't understand why anyone thought it was okay, much less funny. Even with all you said about Jud, having the romantic lead suggest that a troubled man hang himself is just...yikes.

@@appletree6898 When Oklahoma premiered on Broadway in 1943, the song lyrics about Jud were written by Oscar Hammerstein and were intended to be satirical and not literal. Jud actually sang along and the lyrics poked fun at wakes and the way the deceased are presented. The theatre goers at the time needed a respite from the trauma of WWll and no one took offense to Oklahoma which was a huge success and later made into a movie. The overall take away is that Oklahoma is an uplifting and funny play and movie as evidenced by Ado Annie, Will Parker and Ali Hakim.

​@@maryleone2023 I take it you don't like the Daniel Fish version then 🤣

Seriously, I'm not gonna be made to feel guilty about a confirmed arsonist and murderer getting his karma.

😂😂😂

I feel your pain. I went to college in the small town of Due West which only had 1200 people year round (with the students). This town was so incredibly small that we were excited my graduation year that there would be a Subway coming to town of all things.

and I thought my small town of 45K was tiny

Yup. "Carousel"? Yikes!

They also illuminate what is almost always extremely dark source material, like Green Grow the Lilacs AND Liliom. They pull the light out of the dark primarily by creating communities where there are none in the plays. Their shows are dark because they're writing about human nature, and also because, in the case of Carousel and Oklahoma!, they were writing in the shadow of the war.

Oh, yeah. Look at Carousel. "You can abuse your wife, and it won't hurt her, at all, because she loves you." Ummmm...

A brick wrapped in cotton wool

Curly: Walks on stage The cowboys: NOOOOO OOOOOOOONE..

Wow, yeah, that checks out. And Hugh Jackman has played both haha.

It does bring up dark themes that do require reflection, but it's not the show that's problematic.

Sorry, but I will prefer the classic original.

They changed the lines. Also the music. They changed the story. Why don't you watch the UNCSA recreation of Oklahoma the way it opened on B'way on 3/31/1943. Did you see the revival on B'wy in 2002 with Patty Duke as Aunt Eller? What about the 1955 movie with Shirley Jones and Gordon MacCrae. So tell me where was the shooting of Judd at the wedding by Curly in every Oklahoma prior to Daniel Fish's 2019 distortion? Why did Fish eliminate the 28 piece orchestra that is essential to every R&H musical? What's with the corn bread, blood and gore? What's with the guitar strutting Curly? What's with making Curly a cold blooded killer by shooting Judd?

@@warblerab2955 You have good taste in musicals!

@@maryleone2023 Thanks! : )

Some people want black and white in their characters. Nothing is all-black or all-white. Oscar Hammerstein understood this.

I actually think the Daniel fish production is great for this very reason, Jud isn't necessarily the worst person, he's the ostracised outsider. Jud is a character who's misunderstood by his community because he's this brooding farmhand he's a second class citizen. Daniel Fish's interpretation leaves you wondering if Jud really deserved to die and if letting Curly off for it was right. the world isn't black and white, and that's explored even in the original show. Jud's A bad guy, but you can't convince me he's THE bad guy when they're mostly all morally grey at least

he still murders him.

Plus Jud doesn’t take no for an answer and is obsessed with Laurey, he doesn’t respect her boundaries, Curly kills him out of self defense.

Oh believe me, I know that Jud is FAAAARRR from innocent. I think there’s more than just one “villain” in this show lol

​@@WaitintheWings Curly is an asshole (i don't think the text implies that he's persuading Jud to kill himself...he's bullying Jud because he knows he's being provocative but Jud is too unaware to meet him with violence like anyone else would; an asshole move but not an villainous one), that isn't the same thing as a villain (who is the person who works against the morality of the text). Curly doesn't, you just don't like what the text is saying. Fair, but there's no reason to muddle the connotation of villain to do so.

💯💯💯💯

@@ashmeadowphoenix Curly is a different kind of villain the Jud. When you argue about _"technicalities"_ , you're basically using the bigot's excuse to defend themselves. "I'm not racist because I'm not a klansman!", "That person's not a Nazi because _technically_ they have actually killed a Jewish person!", "I can't hate women since I have a mother/wife/sister/daughter/etc!", "I'm not homophobic or transphobic, because I'm not scared of them because _technically_ the definition of a phobia means to be afraid of it!" It's a lazy way of reconciling your prejudice because _you_ don't like what someone is saying, so you try to redefine it to fit _your_ narrative. Maybe you know someone who behaves like Curly, or perhaps you identify with Curly in some way, and hearing someone calling him villainous and not a good person has got your dander up because it implies that _you_ or that acquaintance/friend of yours is by extension, a villain.

@@cannibalisticrequiem Well, I see why you're confused about my response. I'm not arguing technicalities, and no one who is well-versed in literary criticism would think so. Curly is not a villain, technically or otherwise. Villain has a specific literary meaning in literary interpretation. "Villain" is a term specifically meant to both make the audience aware of the ethical milieu of the media and suggest that a character is in opposition to it. Curly is very much the hero within the ethical milieu of Oklahoma, because the ethical milieu of Oklahoma is pretty unethical; it suggests in _more_ interactions than in the Curly and Jud interaction (including the interaction between Ado Annie's father and Ali Hakim), that bullying is fine if it's "deserved", where who is deserving is much less expansive than progressive voices in 21st century might like it to be. Some advice: It's probably a good idea to ask questions _before_ you respond in a way that suggests you didn't read what I wrote very closely or thoughtfully and certainly didn't understand the lens of what was said. Willing to bet you could not quote a single part of my comment that a) indicated I think something is only a "technicality" and b) that I have indicated any actual personal liking or defense of the text's ethical perspective. And yet, your whole comment is full of useless extracted strawmen based on those very things.

He tried to kill Curly with the Little Wonder viewer and when he showed up after the wedding by pulling a knife on him.

I think he's saying that neither of them should be seen as the hero of the story.

It is not actually ever outright stated that it WAS Jud that burnt down the other farms. It's text left open to assumption and interpretation on the part of the production itself to run with or not. I have seen it both ways where it's implied it was him but also where it's implied it was not only a sort of cautionary tale. And that's the thing, making the director or the character choice that is was NOT him hits again with his video says about. The outsider vs insider mentality of the local culture. The socially accepted jock cowboy vs the socially shunned loser laborer. Is Jud the one that did it? Possibly. But it's also very possible that the locals are just using the story against Jud because if ONE farmhand did that, then ALL farm hands are creepers and capable of doing the same, It makes farm hands the local boogey man of sorts. To them, even if Jud didn't do it, they treated him lesser than because of it.

@@AmbeeLee Let's see now, Judd tried to kill Curly with the " Little Wonder" viewer w/built in knife. Then he pulled a knife on Curly during the fight that he(Judd) started .Judd ended up falling on his own knife. The death was accidental and Curly was deemed innocent due to defending himself from being stabbed to death by Judd. So that was the story in Oklahoma from 3/31/1943 through every revival except 2019, and as shown in the 1955 movie. Judd was not, nor ever was intended to be a poor, lonely misunderstood outsider. Curly was never portrayed as a cold blooded killer by (gun at point blank range) until 2019. The fact that the newlyweds both wore white for heightened effect, when covered in blood in 2019, is evidence of something more. They sang the title song covered in blood, to smear America, period. It was Carrie Meets Oklahoma!

I agree that Judd is absolutely the villain. However, as a person who WEPT for him during his solo, I have to also admit that he is a human being with feelings, and I feel for him. Loneliness has driven him to his villainhood. And Curly tried to get him to kill himself. That is problematic. Curly is NOT perfect. But I won't call him the villain, either, because, as you say, he was trying to protect Laurie from a man who wanted to take her against her will. They both wanted to possess her. The difference is that Laurie WANTED Curly. So, it's a happy ending FOR HER. Well, and a happy ending for Ado-Annie and Will, who are neither one exactly faithful sorts, but they are HONEST with each other about it. I think they'll manage well together, if they maintain that honesty.

I mean i would hardly call it murder. In the original ending jud was actively trying to kill curly and he only died because he fell on his own knife.

@@burnttoastburt1467 Thank you. The original ( 3/31/1943) and every Broadway and West End revival, including the 1955 Movie, except for (2019) show that Judd died by falling on his own knife, while he tried to stab Curly. Judd also tried to stab Curly with the "Little Wonder " viewer he bought from Will and had with him at the box social. Aunt Eller called out "Curly" to stop him from viewing the Little Wonder after Ali Hakim told her about it. Judd tried to kill Curly twice. Judd=Villain.

​@@maryleone2023 what I see you failing to realise time and time again in this comment section is that while Jud is A villain, he's not THE ONLY villain. R&H were very much aware that life isn't black and white and people aren't necessarily just "good" or "evil", they make it very clear that the community aren't entirely blameless in this situation. Daniel Fish's interpretation isn't something R&H never could've possibly considered, it's one they didn't go for. if you're going to get all high and mighty about it, why don't you look to the fact that R&H adapted oklahoma from green grow the lilacs, in which the shivaree isn't a fun happy celebration of the newlyweds, it doesn't happen during the day, the play doesn't end with a happy "hell yeah we get to be a state", that's not what it's about, it is quite dark, R&H gave a sanitised pro-America take that wasn't originally intended. Daniel Fish's production, while being interpreted for a modern audience and the issues we currently face, isn't a "wrong" interpretation, in fact it could be argued that it's message is closer to that of the source material.

@@TheClobo2001 What you fail to realize is that Fish changed the original R&H Oklahoma to Fish's Oklahoma, period.

​@@maryleone2023 he hasn't though, he changed none of the dialogue or even the order things happen. he's challenged you to view the show more critically and in a way the original playwright would've wanted. just because it's a different interpretation doesn't mean it's not R&H's oklahoma, if it wasn't that wouldn't be how it was marketed and that would be the criticism from actual critics

You are forgetting that the original story from the day it opened on Broadway, through every Broadway and West End revival, including the Movie, except the 2019 distorted version) show that Judd tried to kill Curly TWICE!. Once at the box social, with the Little Wonder and after the wedding, when Judd attacked Curly with a knife and ended up falling on his own knife! Judd was not some poor, misunderstood outsider with different needs!

@@maryleone2023 I did say that it depended on the production and I didn't say that he was blameless of any wrong doing. So, I stand by what I said.

Curly figures out that he was the farmhand that had burned down several farms after the owners refused to let him date their daughter due to howe creepy he had been acting toward them. id say if i had know that and yet Judith was still able to work and live without getting caught, i would do everything in my power to get him to get out and away from the people and women he loved.

Curly did not talk Judd into suicide since Judd did not commit suicide! Judd tried to kill Curly TWICE! Once with the Little Wonder viewer w/knife and after the wedding when he attacked Curly with a KNIFE!. Judd died accidentally when he fell on his own knife, after he pulled it on Curly during the fight that he (Judd) initiated. You are basing your comments on the 2019 distorted version shwing Curly shoot and kill Judd for no reason. Since the opening of Oklahoma on 3/31/ 1943, through every B'wy and WE revival and Movie, Judd tried to kill Curly. It was never Curly shooting Judd.

@@wwozanewmusical ONE farm and even that is enigmatical.

He has ALREADY killed his previous employers at that point, AND he has made Laurie feel HIGHLY uncomfortable, as she picks up his vibes. And yet, even knowing that, I FEEL for the guy, who is so darned lonely. My local theater production, without changing the lines and music, made him feel SO VERY HUMAN. Maybe it was because I'm good friends with the actor who portrayed him, but I wept for that man, in his shed. I suppose you could call Oklahoma a villain origin story, combined with a "superhero saves the damsel in distress" story. There are just SO MANY layers to Oklahoma. NOBODY, except perhaps Aunt Eller, is really a fully good human being. And many would say Aunt Eller is bad, because she's a spinster, in an age where being a spinster was looked upon as a sin, even though there were more adult women than men. But I digress. Don't get me started on "Ape leaders," and the like. UGH. Anyway, everyone in that show is flawed, in one way or another. But I do think Aunt Eller ROCKS!

Yes plus Jud was obsessed with when he says he ain’t going to dream about her hair, he ain’t going to leave her alone that’s creepy. Plus it doesn’t have to be Curly, he would go after anyone that stood in his way. He viewed her more as property like Gaston did Belle and saw her as a prize but wouldn’t be surprised if he cheated on her with a saloon girl

All the more reason for him to do so! I love when actors play against type, and the best portrayals of villains are often by actors we love and trust (for obvious reasons)

Curly was never the villain. Only in Daniel Fish' distorted and made up 2019 Bwy version. Every Oklahoma from 3/31/1943 shows Judd trying to kill Curly twice: once with the Little Wonder and after the wedding when he pulled a knife on Curly during the fight he started.

Our "Hero" talks his romantic rival into committing suicide, simply because they both love the same girl, and we're supposed to think that this is charming, because it's a musical, and not messed up at all?!

@@trinaq that's exactly what we're saying!! Like??? What??

@@GabrielaDay Precisely, everyone just seems to ignore the problematic implications, and instead focus on the songs, which are admittedly catchy, and to me, are more memorable than the actual plot! 🎶

@@trinaq Judd never committed suicide! Therefor Curly did not talk him into it..! Curly alluded to it, just as Judd alluded to setting the fire that killed 3 people! Judd also tried to stab Curly TWICE, once with the Little Wonder and after the wedding during the fight he started. He ended up falling on his own knife as per every B'wy and WE revival and Movie version until 2019!

Quick unrelated question, did you see Ali Stroker? I saw the show a few times actually but I could only end up seeing matinees so I never saw Ali Stroker as Ado Annie since she was taking off matinees at that time.

That revival is one of the most incredible things I've seen on a stage. I certainly saw Ali Stroker as Ado Annie. She was great and it was nice to see her getting a spotlight role on Broadway after Spring Awakening!

Oklahoma, from 3/31/1943 through every B'wy and W.E. revival and Movie, NEVER had Curly shoot Judd at point blank range at the wedding and kill him. That was an invention of Daniel Fish. It was not Oklahoma that was put on stage but Carrie Meets Oklahoma! Having the two newly weds wearing white( for heightened effect) covered in blood while singing the main title song was a distortion and a travesty. It was Daniel Fish going to Rodgers and Hammerstein's graves and spitting on them. He took their smash hit first collaboration and turned it into NOKLAHOMA! Don't say lines were not changed, since Judd never went to the wedding with a gun as a wedding present for Curly. Curly never shot Judd - that was never in any other Oklahoma, ever, until 2019!

@@maryleone2023 Mary, it’s ok. You don’t have to like it. It’s true that not a line of dialogue was changed. The stage direction was obviously different. Performance art can be interpreted in different ways. It doesn’t have to be an exact carbon copy. R&H weren’t infallible. The original “from 3/31/1943” isn’t perfect. It can be enjoyed in many forms. You don’t have to convince everyone that Fish destroyed Oklahoma. There’s no right answer here. Are you also mad at Lin Manuel Miranda because the founding fathers weren’t black? It’s a different way of telling a familiar story so that society can examine itself and maybe change for the better. I like the original. I also like this new interpretation. I’m glad we have both.

@@bcdenton It is not true "that not a line of dialogue was changed" To wit: adding scenes that never were in the original like Jud going to the wedding reception and giving Curly a gun and having Curly pick it up and shoot Jud at point blank range, murdering Jud in cold blood and changing the story at the trial. In the original, Curly explains that Jud had a knife and came at him and they fought and Jud fell on his knife. It was self defense and an accident! So how does society change for the better by turning Curly into a cold blooded killer and having the newlyweds ignore the murder and sing the title song with both wearing white clothes spattered in blood? Answer: It doesn't!

This is more or less the 2019 stage production, (Currently playing in London in 2023)

I remember Jud being physically aggressive and creepy, I felt bad for him but his actions were very much of someone who was ready to assault Laurie or Curly. Curly is not a clean cut hero at all, he's very clearly too into himself, but leaving that out about Jud feels disingenuous

@@BubblegumSocialClub Yes, I agree haha. I believe that often when someone decides they dislike the 'hero' of the story, they hold them to a much higher moral standard than the 'villain'. Curly wasn't perfect, but him being cocky and so on doesn't make him worse than an aggressive guy who creeps on women and burns down houses lol

The stage version shown here 2019, is a distortion of the original 1943 R&H opening night, 2,212 shows that followed, every B'wy and WE version and movie. They show Judd as the villain since he tried to kill Curly twice: once with the Little Wonder and after the wedding when he pulls a knife on Curly during the fight he started. The 2019 Daniel Fish distortion changes Oklahoma into Carrie Meets Oklahoma. It has Judd go to the wedding and give Curly a gun which Curly picks up and shoots Judd with at point blank range for no reason. Then a mock trial acquits Curly. This is not Oklahoma. It is Daniel Fish's own retelling of the story. In the original and every revival, Curly never shoots Judd. Judd falls on his own knife during a fight with Curly. Curly is found not guilty because it was self defense and also since Judd fell on his own knife, it was an accident.

You are forgetting that Judd tried to kill Curly twice: once with the Little Wonder and after the wedding when he pulled a knife on Curly during the fight he started! Until the Daniel Fish distortion of 2019, every Oklahoma B'wy production, WE production and 1955 Movie show Judd as the true villain.

Yul Brynner’s charisma. I saw him in his last London production of it in the early 1980s, and I was riveted. Can I say the whole thing is terribly problematic? Oh, yes, but with Brynner it was compelling.

Bravo! Well said!

Yeah that part got a big yikes out of me.

Judd tried to kill Curly twice. Once with the Little Wonder and after the wedding with a knife, he pulled on Curly . Judd ended up falling on his own knife and dying. ( Every version of Oklahoma since 3/31/1943, except for the 2019 " Reimagined" Daniel Fish travesty. ) Fish changed Oklahoma into Noklahoma! or Carrie Meets Oklahoma! He spit on the graves of Rodgers &Hammerstein.

What about the fact that Judd tried to kill Curly twice: once with the Little Wonder and after the wedding when he pulled a knife on Curly during the fight he started! This is the story from 3/31/1943 until the Daniel Fish distortion of 2019 where Fish has Curly shoot Judd at point blank range.

I saw the 2002-2003 B'wy revival with Patty Duke as Aunt Eller. That was in the 21st Century!

Love this

GTFO, that was AFTER Jud hinted he had killed a family for crying out loud. and there Jud is, living in the same place as the woman he loves.

Can i go one comments section without people using the term narcissist like this plz

Sorry it is jud not Jed...they even have song with his name it. Also wanted to say sure Curly is a problem but at least he wasn't ban abuser like Billy in Carousel.

Judd tried to kill Curly twice. Once with the Little Wonder and after the wedding when he tried to stab Curly. Judd ended up falling on his own knife. Judd most certainly is the villain and Daniel Fish is trash for spitting on the graves of Rodgers and Hammerstein with his totally made up 2019 version. It is Noklahoma or Carrie Meets Oklahoma.

He set the family's house on fire and killed them. That's what makes Jud a villain.

@@kichiwas-hargan4775yes yet so many people forget that and the fact he was obsessed with Laurey and didn’t respect her boundaries

Not “must have had to drive away,” DID drive away. Oklahoma was the site of some pretty heinous atrocities.

Judd tried to kill Curly twice: once with the Little Wonder and after the wedding when he tried to stab Curly during the fight he started. Ever since 3/31/1943. every revival of Oklahoma + movie shows Judd as the villain. Curly never shot Judd as the Daniel Fish distortion shows. Curly was tried and found not guilty because he was defending himself from being stabbed by Judd. Judd died accidentally by falling on his own knife.

Remember that Judd tried to kill Curly twice: once with the Little Wonder and after the wedding when he started a fight with Curly, then pulled a knife on him. Judd fell on his own knife and died. Judd=Villain!

Well she IS an actress lol

D'aw thank you!

Ali Hakim!

That is true but he also represents the inherently ironic position of such a representative. Think of his constant focus on the Napoleonic Code, a completely out-dated (even for the time) form of law. He represents the ways in which 'progression', 'change' and 'industrialisation' are not in the slightest synonymous terms. He is certainly anti-nostalgic in that he contrasts directly with the nostalgia of Blanche for 'The Old South', but equally represents the repression at the heart of 'progress'.

"Lonely Room" is still a scary song. A great song, yes. And it does show Jud's humanity, but also brings you into the recesses of a dark mind.

That production you mentioned sounds brilliant.

This I'll agree with. To portray Judd as innocent when he physically and emotionally threatens Laurie seems ... off. Someone can be an outsider without burning down houses in retribution for not being awarded a female he thinks he's owed.

Only in the 2019 Daniel Fish' distortion of Rodgers and Hammerstein's masterpiece, not in the original nor any revival on B'wy or WE or movie.

@@maryleone2023 that's why I said to change it.

@@maryleone2023 hi Hun, I just reread your comment and thought you should know it comes off as racist. What with dismissing a black person's point of view and the history of lynchings in America. You probably don't care, (why would you?) But just because you love Oklahoma doesn't mean it can't rub others the wrong way.

Who are you calling "Hun" ? That comes across as sexist! You should not want to make Judd a black guy since from the very beginning of the Oklahoma Judd was a villain. By making Judd black you are equating black and villain. As a person of both black and Italian decent, I take offense to your insensitive remark about blacks and lynchings since both black and Italian people were lynched. By saying Judd was the villain, I am referring to the story and plot of the original Oklahoma since its premiere on 3/31/1943 and all revivals except for the Daniel Fish distortion in 2019.

@@maryleone2023 I'm calling you Hun because I'm friendly. And you keep missing the point both I and the video are making. If you change the story just a tiny bit so Judd is just a guy they don't like instead of the villain it stops being a fairly pointless musical to an extremely meaningful one about how white Americans treat anyone different. Since you love the Original so much there's nothing to worry about since the movie and apparently all other theater productions follow the same plot, but not everyone wants to watch the same story over and over. And a person of color you should want Americans to acknowledge their history of lynching.

@@jordang7479 No, you said make Judd black! I am part black and part white and find it offensive to make Judd black and an object of hatred. Am I supposed to hate myself? You are not friendly and definitely come off as a person who is not friendly! I am not missing any points in Oklahoma. Judd is a white guy who tried to kill another white guy twice. Once with the little wonder and again with a knife. Daniel Fish changes the story and has Curly shoot Judd for no reason. While he and Laurey are splattered in blood Fish has them singing the title song which was meant to be a celebration of America. Fish distorted the show and demonstrates his hatred for America. BTW, you come across as an America hater. I am a part black, part white America lover who is also a US Army Veteran!

Great post! The character of Jud is like The end result of a child left behind growing up without affection. Now that I’m older I can see the trigger of suicidal ideation that would bother people

Daniel Fish's distortion is just that ! It is called Noklahoma or as I call it Carrie Meets Oklahoma. It is established history of the show since 3/31/1943 that Judd was the villain and tried to kill Curly twice: once with the Little Wonder and after the wedding, when Judd pulls a KNIFE on Curly during the fight he started.

Judd tried to kill Curly twice, once with the Little Wonder and after the wedding when he started a fight with Curly and pulled a knife on him. Judd fell on his own knife. He died accidentally. Curly was just defending himself and at the trial it was deemed self defense. Why should Curly face any consequences? Judd tried to kill him twice. The smokehouse scene also shows Judd alluding to the fact that a fire that killed 3 people was no accident. While Curly alluded to Judd hanging himself, Judd alluded to being an arsonist and murderer!

Here’s my personal breakdown (as someone who loves art criticism and has watched both versions). 1. Both versions are products of their time. The original is simple. Curly is a good guy who has a weird moment and Judd is a bad guy. The new is apparently about toxic masculinity and makes Judd a victim rather than an actively violent man. Both have very obviously stylistic choices. 2. Laurie is honestly the bigger issue in this story. Because Curly from the original doesn’t clearly seem to be a cocky a-hole. If anything they’re simply playing a game of cat and mouse against each other. But instead of being honest, she chooses to play with the feelings of a man who obviously terrifies her and who she is aware might hurt her. Even more so, examining the original, Judd assaults her on the way to the party and Laurie ditches him. Instead of mentioning that Judd tried to hurt her to someone, she lets Judd and Curly duke it out. In the new version, Laurie plays with Judd’s feelings by kissing him. 3. This whole point about revisionist history isn’t fair because this isn’t an actually defined town so to make a claim as to what it must or must not be like outside of the realms of what the writers wrote is to be disingenuous. This isn’t a story about masculinity or oppressed minorities. The theme of Oklahoma if anything is about getting over one’s pride. The pride of Curly and Laurie inability to admit they love each other. The pride of the townsfolk to divide on the lines of farmer and cowboy. The pride of Judd for thinking that he is owed Laurie’s affection because he works hard for her and her family. Even Curly is supposed to realize his own pride in assuming things would go well for him and Laurie by virtue of having “beaten Judd” and married Laurie. This theme is also prevalent in the side plot about Annie and Will. Will doesn’t want to let go of the pride he has in his own single life and neither does Annie want to let go of her pride in being an attractive sought after female. Again, I’d say pride is the main theme of Oklahoma - one that does intentionally poke fun at the pride of a people who wanted the freedom of a territory and the rights of a state. 4. You can’t read something old through the lens of modern morals because morals are always shifting. Whether or not you agree with it, Curly isn’t the villain. Sure, depending on the acting he’s a braggart and a puffed up jerk, but that doesn’t make one a villain. That merely makes them flawed. The revival fairly does not let the characters have a happy ending which I’d say is the more realistic and nuanced ending as the pride of the town who rallied behind their young couple was shattered by ignoring what was coming in Judd’s revenge. So yea, realistic ending but it’s not because Curly is a villain, but because the characters are realizing how blind they were to the dangers of a situation they never considered - again because of pride. Anyone can nitpick this issue but I think it’s frankly the most clear and simple reading. Saying all western heroes “are dripping with toxic masculinity” basically shows a disinterest in the genre, a lack of a nuanced reading, and a highly biased view of what it means to be heroic. Very 21st century to say that a “man takes the woman as his prize” and then play down a character saving a town. How he goes about it and his character do matter and examining each film and character are more important than blanket statements that do nothing to further considerate art criticism.

I saw a revival on B'wy with Patty Duke playing Aunt Eller, in 2003. I saw the 1955 move 23 times and the UNCSA recreation of the original opening night version of Oklahoma which is the way those in attendance at the very first B'wy opening saw it. I saw the UNCSA recreation 15 times. Judd was always the villain and it was the intent of R&H that he be the villain. He tried to kill Curly twice: once with the Little Wonder at the box social, and after the wedding when he pulled a knife on Curly during the fight he started. Judd fell on his own knife and died. It was adjudicated as self defense for Curly and rightfully so. Not in the distorted Daniel Fish version that was deemed Noklahoma, or as I call it : Carrie Meets Noklahoma. Please see the UNCSA recreation of Oklahoma on You Tube. There are two acts so you can see it at different times. Also can be seen on John Mauceri's web site.

@@maryleone2023 Well said.

It's also quite an assumption to think that no one at the time it came out and for the years following ever detected and contemplated the nuances of the show. It's always been a musical with shades of darkness.

Yes. PLEASE.

Jud killed a family because their daughter spurned him before he started working for Laurey’s aunt.

Okay?

Curly is NOT the villain. Daniel Fish distorted the play. Ever since 3/31/1943 every B'wy and WE revival + movie until 2019, shows and intends Judd to be the villain. Just remember that Judd tried to kill Curly twice once with the Little Wonder and after the wedding, when he pulled a knife on Curly during the fight he started! Judd fell on his own knife and died. Curly never shot him as in the Daniel Fish made up Noklahoma or as I call it Carrie Meets Oklahoma. So keep on enjoying it since people have loved Oklahoma since 3/31/1943. I know hundreds of people who walked out of the 2019 travesty!

What about the fact that Judd tried to kill Curly twice: once with the Little Wonder and after the wedding when he started a fight with Curly and pulled a knife on him. I say that makes Judd the villain in every B'wy and WE revival + Movie since Oklahoma opened on B'wy 3/31/1943. Not to go by 2019 distortion aka Noklahoma or Carrie Meets Oklahoma.