We are all Alpharius, everyone in the legion is technically an Alpharius clone meaning that based by that logic, Alpharius died while also being alive, which means the legion can also just clone out all the Alpharius it will ever need, which means that an Alpharius clone doesn't need to technically be an actually Alpharius look-alike, which begs the question that in reality, the whole universe of Warhammer 40k is actually just Trillions of Billions of Alpharius Clones trying to find a porpuse and ending on their miserable life all for the true and actual plot of the real Alpharius which is to find a way in which the universe and all other universes can coexist by everyone being alpharius, so yeah in the end we are all Alpharius, The Emperor might be the strongest human to ever grace the universe, the Chaos gods might be the true omnipotent forces in said universve, and the old ones might have created it in the first place, but Alpharius was there when all matter and atoms didn't even exist yet, after all Alpharius is our true Omnipotent, the name of the legion even says so, Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End. Alpharius already controls our past and future, all of us, either Human, Eldar, Ork, Tau, Necrontyr, God or peasant, evil or benevolent force, will always be the present, just like Alpharius always planned since the Birth of all the universe.
Of course the Primarchs can sense each other by the Emperor's design. But clearly Alpharius and each Primarch was designed with a specific purpose, and Alpharius' was unusual. He seems specifically engineered to deceive EVERYONE. Maybe even the Emperor himself. In God Emperor of Dune (spoiler?), Leto II specifically breeds Duncan Idaho clones over and over because he cannot see his future, so he can be deceived by him. He creates an element of unpredictability in order to avoid an inevitable future. (It's been 20 years since I read that so sorry if I'm portraying it inaccurately)
Actually not true. Leto II breeds Duncan's clone cuz there can't be any better servant than him, yet he knows that every single one will in time will betray him and turn against him. He couldn't sense or read Sionna, not Duncan.
I’ve always suspected that the Death of Alpharius was a lie. And the reason the Alpha Legion is so schizophrenic is because Alpharius and Omegon are playing both sides with the legion split down the middle
I think omega is actually purely on the chaos side and alferius is a loyalist. I think omegan was deceiving his brother on his true intentions. I think omegan would have been more likely to be killed by DornBut then that wouldn't explain why the omega legion has been laying low the past 10000 years. Whereas if the loyalist died it makes sense that the alpha legion would be quieter. It would be disappointing if neither brother died by dawn.
after rereading the pretorian of dorn, legion and the alpharius novel, it is super hard to tell, however I do think it was alpharius who died at the hand of dorn. Dorn was a stubborn prick who didn't care what alpharius was trying to show him. but when he was hit by storms teeth there was the flash of light like with ferrus meaning he died right. However, they are 1 soul two bodies. So when one died they become whole again. and then omegon gives horus the plans of the defence prior to the alpha legion showing the failures in them that dorn then fixed. They are the sword in the Dark, their whole purpose is play everyone off. they are the emperor's ace in the hole, his wild card they are there to ensure no one legion can kind of fully get control, they have agents everywhere they can turn it all around to ensure the will of the emperor is maintained. Big E had a plan, he knew what would come to pass but when Alpharius landed back on terra, which he did not forsee he created a contingency in him. Alpharius' whole shtick is contingencies within contingencies. he thinks that his brother is a secret, but only to everyone else the big e sees all. and that is their advantage. they play every side to their advantage and use all tools available to them to achieve their ends
@@joshuaashkar6644 The book says that whenever Alpharius outed or presented himself anywhere, it is not him. AKA Alpharius will NEVER call himself Alpharius or reveal that (only to the Emps/Malcador or the custodes maybe), but his legionnaires and brother will. Dorn killed Omegon who was pretending to be Alpharius, and Alpharius plunged Omegon and half his legion into being traitors for a bigger purpose. He had his brother killed so that Alpharius can be pronounced dead (merely to show that the Alpha legion is leaderless and thus not a threat, making Alpharius do his plans without issue). Besides, it's extremely out of character for Alpharius to go 1V1 with Dorn knowing that Dorn is a superior fighter, Alpharius is way sneakier and slimier than both Curze and Corax combined, that is way out of his character.
It was Omegon who died. It was Omegon who met Horus aboard the vengeful spirit. Alpharius (the real one) and Omegon switched monikers when they found each other. The reason Alpharius (the real one, acting under the name "Omegon") was off kilter addressing himself as Alpharius to Horus after the death of his twin was because up until then, Alpharius had used his name as a tool, not something to take pride or distinguish himself with. When Omegon died and Horus called, he couldn't do that anymore, he had to call himself Alpharius and it wasn't a lie nor ruse anymore. Remember, Alpharius had never revealed himself as his true, authentic self to any of his brothers. After Omegon was found, Alpharius continued to act in the shadows, with his twin taking the attention off of him by using his name. So the real Alpharius is alive.
@@vaevictis6990 Did you read Alpharius's primarch novel? He and Omegon share a soul, they are one together. Both felt the presence of the other since the day they gained concious, while being apart light years. Omegon would never want Alpharius dead.
Well on Eskador, the Ultra Smurfs thought they had killed an AL Primarch but didn’t… Whilst ONE of the primarchs is dead (I swear it’s been confirmed too many times), the issue is you have to remember that the book ‘Praetorian of Dorm’ was written by John French. He does give the IFs a very Matt Ward Vibe, where somehow a couple of IFs with bolters can beat an entire Iron Warrior armoured column, or in this where Dorm could work out who Alpharius was, even though it’s unclear if the Lion could. It just feels like Dorn and the fists have become so plot armoured in the heresy, that any story regarding them is just… over kill? But yes, one Primarch must be dead. Though my personal opinion after reading Alpharius is that Omegon was the more public leader and fighter, whilst Alpharius stuck to the shadows.
I feel it was Omegon that Dorn could sense. Alpharius was trained by Malcador for years, decades, while Omegon was never trained, or trained as well. I don't believe Dorn could sense Alpharius
You say primarchs can sense eachother, that is true. But they cannot overcome each others gifts. Alpharius's gifts are psychic. One example would be when Corax and Robute are fighting and when corax going into stealth mode Robute could not tell where he is or sense his presence. Alpharius was among his brothers in the feasts and gatherings many many times and mentioned that the only other person that could guess he is something more than what he liked them to believe was Russ when he was talking with him in one of the feasts after conquering a world or whatever. Alpharious for sure had many encounters with Dorn before finding Omegon and we know for a fact nobody knew Alpha legion or Alpharious existed before Finding Omegon.
Dorn could tell who was Alpharius, he already did that before horus heresy when Alpharius tried to trick him and failed... Dont compare Corax it is like mixing aplles and oranges...Coras is innvisible, Alpharius is just ,,guess which one it is...
@@lovackaravan2120 I assumed average reader would connect the dots with the similarities I pointed out and ignoring obvious differences while getting the point I am trying to make but I guess not.
@@lovackaravan2120 Wait a second! A): Could he tell it was Alpharius? How could he tell Alpharius from Omegon? In particular, when he only ever met one of the two? B) Being invisible and being undectable are two very different things. In particular when you assume there was a sort of "psychic bond" between the Primarchs. Some sort of supernatural connection. Basically, the funny thing you cannot rule out: There were three Legionairs and Rogal identified one as Alpharius. What if actually both Alpharius AND Omegon were there? Like in kind of an more elaborate version of the games twins like to play in real life? I mean, since they (the 20/21 Primarchs) didn't exactly grow up with one another and the twins were the last to re-join, given their nature it could really have been sort of a test of their abilities for them.
@@varelmarais2222 I like to think Fulgrim's clone lacks the psychic part that the emperor imbued them with. Fabius cannot recreate the psychic souls or parts the emperor brought with him from the warp to insert into primachs.
Dorn killed Omegon. Alpharius still lives. Alpharius switched identities with Omegon when Omegon was discovered. Not even the Alpha Legion knew this switch took place. It was done so that Omegon could have legitimate 1st time meetings with all the primarchs. It was not just for the meeting with Horus, it was a swtich that was done permanently. The original Alpharius likely still is alive, I personally believe that Alpharius is currently carrying around The Lions Sword (Cypher). There is absolutely no explanation HOW Cypher (if an astartes) could escape Custodians and the cells in the Imperial Palace. There is NO explanation at all that gives super spy skills to any Dark Angel to escape Custodians the way Cypher does. Take this for example, The Emperor knows The Lion sleeps and with the Beacon, we can surmise that the Emperor sent St. Celestine to help Alpha Legion members. Also, Alpharius had contact with Valdor for a full century before other Primarchs were found.... The King in Yellow could certainly benefit from help from Alpharius. Alpharius was taught by Malcador to hide his Primarch aura, Omegon did not have the luxury. Rogal sussed out Omegon twice (the meeting and the fight), but never sussed out Alpharius. In that meeting it was for sure Omegon because of the lack of empathy for the human populace. Alpharius has real empathy for the common people. So Rogal could pick out Omegon, because he did not have training from Malcador. Also, with the amount of sparring Alpharius and Valdor did, do we think that Dorn could have beaten Alpharius?
The Fallen, and specifically Cypher have some kind of 'divine providence' protecting/guiding them. Alpharius was killed as much as I loathe to say it. The Alpha's are one of my favourite legions, so it breaks my heart to say it. But he is dead. Black Library shit the bed on this one. I hope that they pull a cheeky retcon though.
A good point. I think even the weakest primarch Lorgar can fight better than that, so it is possible, or there was also a story where certain AL librarius could transfer the Primarchs being into another body.
How many Legionaries could stand up to a Primarch long enough to get a strike in? Let alone a few? Most of the Primarchs take out entire squads in a single strike. While I am a massive Alpha Legion fanboy and kinda hope not because its cool to think theres 2 of them still out there with opposing ideas on both sides of the fight. I think Dorn killed one of the Twins (and likley the true Alpharius, as Omegen kinda seems to lament taking on the title Alpharius permanently). I do love the idea of a 3rd brother though that perhaps neither of them even knew about. Though GW can do anything they like as its so open ended.
@@jesterprince4949 Again, he said Dorn LET him get that hit in, so it's not like the man outfought him, or it was even a close fight. Therefore, it seems very possible that it was a duplicate. Normally, the stand in wouldn't have been able to get a strike in, but Dorn LET him.
Stop. You're missing the point, entirely. He let himself get hit BECAUSE they were basically at a stalemate. A duplicate wouldn't have even lasted that long, much less managed to pressure Dorn into tanking a hit in order to create an opening.
Both Omegon and Alpharius have different "gifts" which sets them apart. Alpharius has the ability to hide in plain sight, as in his presence is not noticed by anyone if he doesn't want it to be (except for Lion, apparently, maybe). Omegon has the ability to have an Astartes take his likeness, memories, and a portion of his power by consuming his blood. We have no lore that shows Alpharius doing what Omegon does, and no lore of Omegon doing what Alpharius does. Council of Truth is a good short story that shows the opinion difference of the Imperium and the point of the existence of the Primarchs between Alpharius and Omegon. Which is why in my opinion, if a Primarch actually died on Pluto, it was Omegon, in the body of Kel Silonius. However, we do not have a living POV of this event, as the only survivor is Dorn and he swore anyone with knowledge to secrecy, which is very uncharacteristically duplicitous of Dorn.
I'd like to point out, that Guiliman noted that when the Space Wolf Champion (I forget his name) struck at the Lion in their duel, it was a strike of such skill, that Guiliman doubted he would have been able to deflect it. So there are definitely SOME Astartes that would be able to wound SOME Primarchs. Note: Wound, not kill.
Well of course Guilliman couldn’t deflect it. He’s number 1 contender for worst Primarch in a fight right next to Lorgar. Guilliman is a statesman while Lorgar is a charismatic demagogue. Neither one was praised for their combat prowess
@@sarahhillary7698 And yet Guiliman could hold his own against Angron and Lorgar at the same time. So even the weakest of the Primarchs aren't too far removed from the best Primarchs and any Primarch is presumably an order of magnitude above a "simple" Astartes. However, some Astartes clearly hold the capacity to wound Primarchs, as we also see Corswain wound Curze.
I literally just explained this on another video. This is the least complicated plan. Alpharius's body died against Dorn. But, he put his mind into one of his captains first. So, the captain piloting Alpharius's body died. Omegon felt Alpharius's body die. He can't feel the mind transfer thing. So, the lie becomes the truth; Omegon officially takes over as Alpharius. Meanwhile, actual Alpharius is slowly turning his captain's body into his original one, because mantling is a thing in warhammer. Guilliman apparently kills Alpharius later on, but even Guilliman doesn't think he actually did. There is a strong chance both Alpharius and Omegon are basically unscathed since the heresy, despite losing a body along the way. They are almost guaranteed to be on opposite sides.
The Lion was terrible at reading people. Im not sure fooling him would be that big of a deal considering traitor Perturabo talked him out of those siege weapons he just fought Horus over.
Did the XX even have a “physical” Primarch? The 40k novel “Sons of the Hydra” inferred the Alpha Legion was more of an ideology than a former legion doctrine. So what if, in the Primarch novel, two standard legionaries were psycho indoctrinated to believe they were Alpharius and Omegon? The Alpharius that “dies” in Praetorian certainty believes he’s Alpharius, and Dorn has only ever met whichever “programmed“ legionnaire believed themselves to be Alpharius at any one time. So is it possible that the Alpharius “programme” just installs in another marine, and the current” Omegon, still genuinely believing in the “heir and a spare” nature of the Alpha Legion sensed the “current” Alpharius cease to exist?
As far as Marines damaging primarchs, I recall a senior Night Lord, a high ranking Captain, only managing to scratch Lion’s armour before being taken down. No way a regular marine managed to land a flesh wound on a primarch. Edit: I should probably mention this is in the context of a “fair” 1 on 1 fight. Ambushes and the like change the odds.
Luther wounded the Lion. Erebus, one could say, outsmarted Horus every now and then. And on the other end: why would Sanguinus' sacrifice have been necessary so that the Emperor can slay Horus? How could Horus cripple the Emperor? Personally, I just don't think the lore is very consistent regarding these levels of power. I think that at least the First Captains (or more precisely, those experienced Marines eligable for a First Captaincy) can prove to be a challenge for at least a Primarch of a different Legion (not necessarily to their own Primarch).
@Eugene Belford in those cases, especially Luther and Cor Phaeron, chaos boosting was always involved which multiplies their strengths. The only marines who have really ever hurt primarchs are ones who manages to pull off subterfuge and ambushes, such as the alpha legion infiltrating macragge during the heresy by posing as a friend of guillimans who was lost on calth. And even in those cases its always a group fight against a primarch and it's always costly. There was a raven guard sniper ( the one who beat lucius, so no slouch) who shot fulgrim with a solid round sniper in the head while he was helmetlesss and fulgrim survived it with the help of fabius. So primarchs for the most part immune to solitary or small groups of marines, even the best of them.
I remember hearing somewhere that Dorn had the ability to not necessarily nullify Psychic energies, but more break it through sheer force of will. Is that true? If so, that could be how Dorn is able to figure out if Alpharius is true or not.
I would love for alpharius and omegons "primarch ability" to be that they do not need physical bodies and are able to possess any member of their legion and turn that astartes in to their primarch body. so they really would all be alpharius as he could be any one of them at any time. I would be a neat way for alpaharius to still be alive.
he never died, it was his brother who was posing as him who died. his brother chose the path of letting horus win and chaos killing it self while he at some point turned against his brother and chose the path of the slow death of the imperium but horus dying. the alpha legion had a civil war at some point.
@@saltyseasdog I'm of the opinion that omegan was actually pro chaos and he did make The Choice to join Horace whereas alpharius It's pro Imperial. And perhaps the brothers are deceiving each other. I would like to think one of the primarks was killed by Dorn but I'm on the fence as to which 1 it should be.
@saltyseadog1742 What @cottermcg123 is saying is that original Alpharius is still alive. I personally agree. To understand that theory the key books are 'Legion' and 'Head of the hydra'. In these you learn that Alpharius and Omegon enjoy switching who is who. Much as the legion enjoys playing 'Alpharius' to the point it would be very hard to be sure which brother is actually which. But Legion tells us alot about the moment they chose Horus and why. It also show us which brother is which in that moment. Now personally if you belive anything from 'head of the hydra' Alpharius was discovered first and alone. He of all the Primarchs is loyal. (This is a lie) so even when he joins Horus it is out of loyalty to the emperor and humanity. Why this supports Omegon being Alpharius when he died handsless to Dorn's one (karma is a bitch even for Primarchs) is Alpharius is the one who made the decision as he is more loyal to the emperor as can be seen in the brothers reactions to the vision of the future. To me it would make sense that Omegon is the one who took the lead in the war against the Imperium as the true Alpharius has always proffered operating in the shadows and would be more likely to give away their true reasons for supporting the traitors. Not sure when or how the Alpha legion were expected to have a civil war though. I belive this theory explains why you still have Alpha legion shinagins that seem to help the imperium. Where as Omegon would have no reason to do this.
@@brycegray8694 pretty much the same interpretation that i had. Also, diddnt only Omegon use the Xeno-tech spear, along with wearing the scaled armor?? I read somewhere that He had those 2 artifacts when meeting with Alpharius for the first time, or am I mistaken?? Either way, Alpharius Switched places with Omegon and remained undercover for the most part (most likely still is in the current setting) and It was Omegon who got killed at Pluto, by Dorn. Basically the easiest way to keep track of them is labeling them by; (Alpharius)first-found, (Omegon)last-found. As in the first primarch found, and Last primarch found.
It was an attempt to talk down Dorn, actually. Throughout their duel Alpharius is trying to get Dorn to listen to him. The theory is that the Alpha Legion (or a majority of it, it is unclear) hadn’t turned traitor and was running some kind of double agent scheme against Horus. As is a,ways the case with Alpha Legion, there is no way to know for sure what they were up to. Some people think Alpharius was operating on orders from Big E, others that they were traitors trying to avoid getting wrecked by a vengeful Dorn, or some other scheme.
Based on Dorn’s fighting ability there is no way a base legionnaire is going to hold their own against him. In addition, primarch blood smells different than a normal legionnaire. That’s been mentioned several times in the lore. Dorn is not a fool and would notice something out of place.
Apparently Alpharius can give his marines part of his own power? I don’t know if it’s by blood or whatever but I remember reading that somewhere Even with *that* in mind, we’ve seen Dorn see clear through Alpharius’ ‘stealth power’ before on this very channel. That and the fight, and the way his death was portrayed.. I just don’t see both twins being alive still
Remember Dorns gift. The warp is nothing to him. This is why when confronted with the three alpharius he told him he couldnt hide from him. Also Omegon felt the death of his true twin. That he was truly alone.
My personal head cannon is that Dorn did kill Alpharius, but Guilliman didn't kill Omegon. Omegon is still out there in the galaxy, he is loyal to the Emperors ideal with a small following of also loyal legionairs. Those occasionally intervene to help the Imperium where as the main part of the legion has fallen apart into war bands who are either traitorous or downright chaos aligned.
Honestly this makes a lot of sense to me. Alpharius being the traitor brother with Omegon being the closet loyalist brother who took up the mantle of “real Alpharius” and then died which shattered the legion making it less of a threat to the imperium because now it is individual warbands and cells.
It's been said many times alpharius gifts were psychic also he hid much of it from his brother so from what I have read and others have said he can transfer his mind from his body also omegon was more likely to be chaos aligned than alpharius
For the record, I mention this everytime alpha legion come up. The alpha legion were among the largest legionaries and alpharius/omegon were the smallest primarchs.The Marines in this legion looked nearly identical to they're primarchs and each other. The Alpha legion also has rituals akin to the bloodangels where they drink from a chalice with the primarchs blood, granting those who drink it a portion of the primarchs strength and the certainty they are Alpharius. So, knowing that - Its possible that a bitch primarch who gets slapped, but has the look and strength and aura of a primarch, is actually a sergeant who was convince to put on the wargear and drink from the chalice before Dorn got there.
Alpharius watching Alpharius watching Alpharius pulling a prank on Alpharius by having Alpharius telling Alpharius to go 1v1 Dorn, saying it would be funny. Omegon didn't really like that... or maybe it was Alpharius
If he did die it would make no sense at all, that alpharius, the one raised by malcador who knew everything about his brothers would die the way he did to dorn, would make sense it was omegon, even the books imply it was alpharius pretending to be omegon. Only thing is, is that the armour of the twin who died wore omegons armour and spear when he was founded by alpharious
Praetorian of Dorn makes no sense. Alpharius should know that he doesn't stand a chance against one of his bigger and stronger brothers. Especially one of his brothers like Dorn. That whole book was heretical in the extreme. I think it was a (poor) attempt by Black Library at giving Dorn and Alpharius some content. Dorn can't do much until the Siege of Terra series. And BL seemed to not know what to do with Alpharius and the Alpha Legion after Legion. Perhaps this was their attempt at explaining why the Alpha's "fall" to chaos in 40k. They lost the positive influence Alpharius had on the legion, and left them with only Omegon. Who is kind of positioned to be a remorseless psychopath due to him growing up alone. It's just such a bad book in my opinion.
@@jamesespinosa690 it's awful writing. Alpharius should be among the main primarch not to fall to Chaos or be stupid enough to fight dorn who is the most obstinate and unreasonable of all the primarchs. each primarch was suppose to be the zenith in what they were built for and the books do not do Alpharius or the AL justice maybe because the whole idea behind them is too complex for the writers, it seems the writers are just trying to be mysterious for the sake of being mysterious
@@Jonra1 Valdor is still just a custode though. He is rumoured to be strong enough to take on the primarchs. So Alpharius seems like he would be a good match for Valdor. Was this fight to the death? Or a duel?
As I understand the book. Alpharius transfered Silonius' mind into Alpharius' body and using Psichic reconstruction combined with drinking Alpharius blood. Silonius had the memories of a Primarch. the body of a Primarch and a fake mind of one. I think the fight was compared to other borther vs brother fights an easy fight for Rogal. Alpharius is alive within Silonius body. but it was a real Primarch body that Rogal killed, but I believe Rogal at the end had his doubts, hence why he chooses to keep Alpharius death under wraps. Sidenote: I believe it is a permanent swap the twins did at their reunion. I dont remember the exact wording but Omegon says that he has to go to Horus and say he is Alpharius for the first time where it isnt a lie.
Alpharius and Dorn were colluding, as well as Alpharius actually being triplets. There is also reason the believe Alpharius can 'impart' himself for time on someone with his geneseed creating another 'hydra head', blending in some much that he takes over another.
So on topic of last known activity ## Big Spoilers ## Mike Brooks himself on twitter recently said said yes the brothers have always been who you thought they were unless stated otherwise But he is contradicting his own book Head of the hydra Alpharius dies at the end of POD and Omegon feels his death, Mikes statement basically confirms that yes Alpharius is dead. The Primarch book is basically designed to make you symphaise with Alpharius and it gives his death even more weight, Dorn goes on to later regret killing his brother towards the end of Old Earth. So Alpharius is dead at the end of POD. But that doesn't mean much given the people they are involved with in Mortis Also one has to question the pale spear being used which is Omegons weapon Omegon pretended to be Alpharius And vice versa But evidence would suggest it is Omegon Looking at it from an in lore perspective Especially taking into account the head of the hydra book So taking into account what Mike has said let's go to the book Mortis Drarmetics personal of the Perpetuals Main characters of mention #Actae (aka Cyrene is non perpetual killed by a custode while she is with Argel Tal in the last heretic She was revered by the word bearers and Lorgar when she was alive She is resurrected as a perpetual with cabal meddling in the chaos sorcery and then recruited by the Cabal as an agent After that nothing is known till her appearance on Terra She is a Grade A psysker stated by Oly And John who can sense her abilities #Oly Pearson. Perpetual ex First Warmaster of the Emperor #John Grammaticus Perpetual ex cabal agent #Alpharius Primarch He is Wearing his Pythian scales Oly and John recognise and feel his presence. They are very fearful immediately Remember both are psychic and powerful perpetuals Oly says Alpharius moves unnaturally fast for his appearance It's not just a basic legionnaire !! Why would two powerful Perpetuals be afraid of a basic astartes? John freak when he sees Alpharius on Terra It is one of the Primarchs They also have a special Astartes protecting them and present So It's the Primarch or a legionary that is enhanced but which one (currently I would consider it to be Alpharius resurrected by the Cabal / cabal tech ) but that's a debate to discuss another time Irrespective the last sighting of him is end of Mortis on way to imperial Palace with Actae aka (cyrene) and the Perpetuals Cyrene Alpharius ask John and Oly to follow a, third path to save Humanity not horus or Emperors path at this time So the battle with Horus at the end I suspect will be Alpharius making it happen dropping vengeful spirit shields likely causing Emperor to choose to attack and the fight will be not what you expect Oly may be the one to mortally wound the Emperor They had a big falling out As Emperors first war master The battle will have massive back stabbings and not what you expect given traditional ending Sang will prob go blood rage to kill horus and wound him Emperor may need to kill Sang or put him down if he's into the rage Oly was the first warmaster and knows Enuncia so he is powerful plus he has an anatheme blade , it's gonna be nasty and not what you expect Will Alpharius take part further in fight? Or Cyrene? We will see But they are all involved in a critical point in Heresy People are overlooking them Alpharius is guiding humanity to a third path and is heavily active in events on Terra
A hydra has many heads, and if you don't cut them all off at once the others can grow back. Maybe if you don't kill both the twins together the one who dies will just revive.
We saw what happened when a choas empowered Kharn tried to fight Dorn, he got swatted to the side like he was nothing. No spacemarine can fight a primarch.
Do I think Dorn could not be fooled when the Lion could? Yes. Dorn is stubborn, while the Lion is arrogant. Stubbornness does not blind truth quite as hard, or as surely, as arrogance.
Actually rogal dawn could have picked wrong between the three, but the one picked played along, the fighting between the two being close is hard to rationalize
Dorn knew his brother better than anyone, in the way that he could pick Alpharius out of the crowd. The Lion, possibly suspected but respected, keeping secrets like the best of them. i also think the third head is just the legion itself. The Hydra is the perfect metaphor for modern decentralized command. You have a mission intent and if the leader dies you still have the intent to be able to complete the mission. unlike centralized command structures where kill the leader no one knows what to do
Absolutely. It just strains belief that not only would Dorn not realize he is dueling a space marine (regardless of the marine’s ability) but also be fairly injured during it. No way. Dorn is in the top half of fighting Primarchs, without a doubt. He was mowing through the elite guard of Alpharius prior to the duel. I just can’t buy Rogal Dorn getting duped that way.
"The Hydra," the "Threefold Serpent," would suggest that there were 3 of them - is it possible that they put in a part of their souls into 'someone' as a way of keeping the "The Hyrda" or triumvirate/ legion together and the reason why the twin Primarchs saying 'I am alone' is the confusion in losing part of there souls as each wouldn't know if the other died or which one - was it the twins or the 'someone' they put their soul into. I think this would also make sense regarding how that legion works, deception to others including themselves
The brothers know when their in the presence of each other on some metaphysical level so I reckon Dorn knew exactly who he was fighting and ultimately killing him .
3 heads of the Hydra would be a really interesting concept as it would explain the Alpha Legions strange tactics in sometimes aiding and sometimes hindering the Imperium but I do think its a bit too far-fetched as the Emperor would know and him and Malcador would have mentioned a third during the great crusade. I do think a fully loyalist Alpha Legion do need to be revealed eventually. Maybe a chapter size group of Astartes following Alpharius plan while Omegon is an agent of chaos without becoming a demonic primarch. A really interesting twist would be Alpharius himself being reborn with the full trust of the Emperor to lead this chapter, Guillman's reaction would make for good stories. First though we need Angron, Lion and Fulgrim returns as the story I want is Snake Fulgrim coming out of his realm to hunt down clone Fulgrim following Trayzn releasing him and the chapter of Emperors Children he has in storage. Also Lions return and his reaction to what The Imperium has become
How I would do it: 1st: Angron returns and begins his great campaign destroying world after world until he runs into a massive Ghazgul WAAAAGH!! With some major Gork and Mork power assistance Angron gets defeated and sent packing with Ghazgul growing to almost Krork level power making him and even bigger threat. 2nd: Lion returns and seeing the state the Imperium is in summons all his sons to him and re-uniting the Dark Angels as one single Legion and going after the Silent King who has become more active while giving the middle finger to Guillman. 3rd Fulgrim: With another warp dampening stone on the verge of destruction by the Black Legion, Trayzn finally releases Clone Fulgrim and the old loyal Emperors Children he has in storage to turn the tide of battle and send chaos packing but this attracts Snake Fulgrim to real space and Clone Fulgrim must work with Guillman to send snake boy back to his realm.
TLDR: Omegon died to Dorn, because from HOH compared to the older lore everything points is who we though was Omegon for the most part was the other, and If Omegon survived he would likely be looking to supplant the loyalist while Alpharius would likely be scheming to remove the threat of chaos and the traitors. My two cents is black Library has either got a trench sized plot hole to cover or a huge retcon on the way. What I mean is if you look at all the older Horus heresy lore after Dan Abnett's Legion, and compare that to what we know from Mike Brooks Head of the Hydra we see the two Primarchs seem to be reversed. We know the emperor gave Alpharius a plain power armor which was attributed to Omegon. The pale spear and pythian scales where omegons. I think the better question that needs to be answered is which twin was which, because that could make a very different outcome as to what they may or may not be up to in the current setting. I don't doubt that one twin died to Dorn, but the better question is what happens to the dead twin. They where said to be two halves of the same whole what's to stop the other soul simply returning to the living other half?
a possibility that should not be overlooked: the effect of the warp! if you believe strong enough into something, the warp can make it true. could it be, that the believe of the alpha legion actualy makes it possible that alpharius soul can inhabit the body of a legionair? something like the thing that is happening with lucius the eternal?
The meeting with Dorn served two purposes for Alpharius and an additional one for the reader. For Alpharius, it let him gauge how perceptive Dorn was and let him give Dorn the idea that he could identify Alpharius easily. For the reader, it gave the idea that Dorn would know, so 20 years later, GW could unleash a massive plot twist. The bit where Omegon knew his twin had died is just propaganda. They've been working for the past 10,000 years to keep chaos and the Imperium balanced and their military prowess honed since that's the only way humanity could survive the threats it shall soon face.
They have his corpse! A Primarchs physiology is totally different from an Astartes on so many different levels. They would know or Dorn / the Imperium is intentually
As far as I understand, they have some philosophical issues around corpses. I mean, since 10.000 years they have a corpse as head of state and no physician ever poked him with a needle to figure out if he's still fit to rule ... 😁
Alpharius is the embodiment of falsehood, and Dorn is able to see the absolute truth of a thing. The Lions instincts are perfect and always give him complete situational awareness, but he uses these to react to the situation, so his response is just to note the truth but to see where it goes. Dorn on the other hand can only see the truth, and therefore would act as such. Recognition of Alpharius would be immediate, and Dorn is the definition of straightforward. I don’t believe Alpharius tricked either of them, I think that they responded to his deception as they would, Dorn straightforward and The Lion as any hunter to see how it plays out before taking his shot.
It's been awhile since I read it but didn't a light/soul shoot out of Alpharius when he was killed? The same thing happened to Ferrus when Fulgim killed him. That wouldn't have happened if it was a normal marine.
I normally don't reply to comments but our game club came to an interesting theory. The true Alpharius is actually a "primarch blank" and "perpetual." Omegon is the soul... Out of all the brothers - AO most likely had the most interactions with all his kin. AO for sure had most time with Malcador and Valdor. We can expect he ran many errands for the big three. He might have been charged with helping expunging the "lost legions." Also explains the most pure gene stock with no warp taint. Lion, wolf, and cyclopse all failed to detect AO. Wolf was closest noting his smell/shifts and Magnus being raw psychic power never could never stand/read AO...he is a blank. In all honesty if they did an Amazon series for 40K. It should follow AO as he was and still is there to witness all. Lasty...the chaos gods used the warp to fling babies across universe. The one child who they could not touch was a blank...and left on Terra. Hours was the "first found" as AO was never lost.
I think its Alpharius who died and not Omegon because at the end of the book Omegon seems almost uncomfortable saying he was Alpharius to Horus. I don't think the actual Omegon died though but he may have sacrificed his Primarch body.
@@icklemoo author statements mean very little in WH40K where authors step on eachothers toes constantly. Most recent being Eternity gate where ADB throws Graham Mcneil's fury of magnus stuff into the dirt to make more mindfuckery offof Magnuses final fate.
There is nothing about the Fallen that I've seen that even hints at them working against Chaos for the Empire. Starting with them not even being a united group, but instead splintered into different interest groups - independent Calibanites, those terrrans opposing Jonson and clearly Chaos aligned (like all psykers seem to have fallen to Chaos) - and likely several just caught up in the whole misery never understanding it. Personally I do believe there is a lot of merit to the theory that terra-raised Alpharius that became Omegon is still alive and has a good chance of being Cypher, working for the Emperor in the shadows, while the Alpha legion is left a broken mess. There is likely some small group working for Alpharius, but I doubt anyone in that legion has any clue what is really going on and what side they themselves are on. Its so easy to manipulate such small cells, no need to bother them with the truth or grand plans. I don't buy any of that 'Dark Angels are actually traitors or/and the Alpha legion being loyalist'. That was always just boring low level meme BS.
@@erih2934 hey calm down buddy this is all fantasy here. We can make stories as we buy models I for one have a story about a group of dark angles that were caught in a lost region of space during the Hearsay. Only to be trapped in the warp and just now able to get to caliban having no clue what happened in the final moments of Horas. They do not trust anyone and are seeking out the fallen and cypher. I do want to incorporate alpha legion along the lines of some of them were with the dark angles and are still loyalists
@@toddpardis2441 Hey :) Sorry, it seems my post got a tone that was utterly not intended. Blame on me not paying enough attention how it could be perceived. I didn't want to come across as attacking your view, just pointing out some lore around the Fallen. Definitely not meant to interfere with people projects :) ...although not related to your post, I must admit I do have resentments against the Dark Angel traitor memes after 3 decades of listening to them XD ;)
Wasn't there like special effect when Primarch died? While dying releasing warp energy? I seem to remember reading about such thing happening in Fulgrim when Ferrus died, also when you read the fragment with duel between Rogal and Alpharius same thing happened? If it's the fact then it cements validity of kill by Rogal Dorn for me.
Clearly its fiction, Alpharius has been sighted on multiple battlefields in modern times, even declaring his name. Some will say Dorn's primarch sense can't be fooled, but one of the masters of deception would certainly develop a counter by the time of the Heresy.
There was the Lucifer Black commander that managed to stab Alpharius (or Omegon, or possibly just one of the Alpha Legion). They landed the blow, its jus it failed to do the damage needed to even slow them down. Landing a blow is one thing. Landing a blow that matters is a different matter.
For me Dorn did take out a brother Primarch. However, not Alpharius or Omegan. It was the third Primarch of the Alpha legion. Yes…3 Primarchs. For all the secrecy and subterfuge the number of Primarchs is on display all along. Look at the legion insignia. How many heads do you see?
Did Dorn really best Alpharius by picking him out from the 3? Or possibly Alpharius just let him believe he could do so, making him overconfident in his ability to identify him, so that Alpharius can take advantage in the future and trick a Rogul Dorn who has no idea he was being manipulated the whole time.
I think the scene where Dorn calls out Alpharius amongst the three was simply a dry run for Alpharius’ fight against Dorn to insure he could fake his own death. Also Omergon is alive too, but which one is loyal and which is not I can’t say.
Honestly as a Alpha legionnaire i really don't care if he or his brother are alive or dead, what i do care about is the piss poor way he died. Epic battle.... Really! The fight lasts for 2 pages and most of that is jib jab. If the primarchs are supposed to be the epitome of battle savy, shouldn't the battle between 2 of them not rival at the very least the battle between Rowdy Roddy Piper and Kieth David in They Live and not the condensed cliff notes version we got from a piss poor writer
the problem with the dorn "recognizing" which alpharius was the real one is one we have no indication that he knew the third "alpharius" was even there except for him saying to archamus that he knew there was a third one he just wanted to see how long alpharius would try to lie for. knowing dorn and primarchs in general, they wouldn't want to be shown up or seen as unaware of what's going on, especially to one of their sons so i absolutely could see him lying about that. also we never once get confirmed in that conversation which alpharius was the real one. and even if all primarchs could sense which one is a brother, alpharius was taught to hide his thoughts from the second strongest psyker in the imperium(malcador), i very much doubt that the inherent brother(which we're still assuming that dorn has it) is stronger than malcador openly looking into alpharius's mind so that ability paired with his natural ability of making himself unrecognizable absolutely leans more into the fact that dorn has no idea who he is.
From your words, I don't get the sense that the blending ability of Alpharius is a psychic ability. For your description, it feel that he just is able to do that, without any magic powers involved. Like Keyser Söze in Usual suspects
this is made more clear in the end and the death. saying that the alpha legion had plans around terra that rogal dorn was in on. It is largely possible that alpharius faked his own death and rogal helped him "die".
Alpharius/Omegon has to be Cypher. There is no one else who could fit. Gulliman looks Cypher dead in the eye and senses something is off about him and can't place what it was. Only an Alpha Legion Primarch could break out of the prison Cypher was locked in.
The Emperor is Alpharius. He's just been hiding in plain sight by sitting REALLY still and putting on some more corpse makeup every hundred years or so.
Yep he is missing a big piece that warp infused humans have wounded primarchs. Alpha legion would definitely use this if they thought it would make the fake seem more realistic
As an Alpha Legion fan, I think that one of the twins died by Dorn's hands. Also it is said that every member of the Legion is expendable, even one of the twins. its just a matter of what is important enough to allow that cost.
Dorn have ability to cancel psychic powers. He might be better at recognizing Alpharius than Lion cuz Alpharius is more of a psychic cameleon. And don't forget about same light flash as with Ferrus death
so in regards to it needing to be alpharius because a space marine couldn't land a few hits on a primarch, one idk how true that is because a black lucifer landed a hit on alpharius, also i do think that it was alpharius in control a space marine because halfway through the book when they explain the ability they used on syloneus they state that some people would transfer the consciousness of someone to another's body, but we are to believe that plot wise the ability removed syloneus, later confirmed alpharius's memories and he's working to get them back. it becomes a chekov's gun if the idea that they could move a conscious from one body to another without using that so my theory is that alpharius and syloneus switched bodies and syloneus was in control of alphraius's body on the alpha ship, when rogal killed alpharius it actually killed syloneus but the light that people believe is caused by primarch's deaths( but does not consistently happen ) was actually the psyker's ability backfiring and returning the correct souls to their bodies and omegon believes alpharius to be dead while the souls are being transfered. this would give alpharius his greatest weapon back, being the blade that isn't seen which he states is his purpose from malcadore's tutoring. he very well could be the famed cypher who is collecting the artifacts to res the lion.
Hear me out, it was revealed that Alpharius could hide his presence from others in the latest Alpharius book. What if Alpharius/Omegon also had the ability to soul jump to similar bodies and that's why the legion had to strictly be like their primarch(s). Now the flaw is Alpharius/Omegon have no memory of who they are so they carry out their versions of saving the Imperium as sleeper agent Primarchs?
Or... Maybe Rogal Dorn actually was wrong in identifying the real Alpharius that time, and Alpharius/Imposter Alpharius playing off of Dorn arrogance at his iron certitude just went with it letting Dorn think he correctly singled Alpharius out.... How bout that for some 'I Am Alpharius Level Shenanigans'... But, still in my opinion it was in fact the 'el jefe-Alpharius Alpharius' who was taken out by Dorn in a way reminiscent of 'Nykona Sharrowkyn straight-up merc'ing Lucius'.
Off topic but I'm having a hard time finding any information on the next book in the Seige of Terra series. I'd love to know when it's expected to drop.
Russ and the Lion were the only ones that had the best “chances” at figuring out when alpharius was around because of their senses. Even alpharius states he doesn’t like the Lion because he can’t read him
Russ and the Lion excel at reading body language to an extreme degree. A change in smell, mannerisms, how they carry themselves. I If any of these are even different, to the slightest degree, they will know something is over
Alpharius’ meeting with the Lion in the novel made me wonder how the Lion would feel after Alpharius revealed himself to Horus, only to learn he had actually met the Primarch of the Alpha Legion, not just an Alpha Legionary. Would he be pissed? Or impressed?
I do think Alpharius is dead, but the way Praetorian of Dorn is written GW could easily retcon that Captain Silonius was the one to be killed and switched with Alpharius, and the story still make sense
I think they should make the alpha legion into a real hydra. Alpharius blood can transfer his conscious. So, every alpha legion is can potentially become Alpharius. I know thats not what his primarch book says but I think it would be a cool ability and make them more like a hydra.
I think it was definitely the real Alpharius that Dorn killed. I believe this for two reasons: One: Primarchs can sense each other. Two: Only another Primarch could stand up to Dorn. Especially an angry Dorn who is out for blood. A standard marine wouldn't last more than a few seconds.
If only GW had made Alpharius and Omegon split each way in the Heresy and one go loyal and one traitor it would have been epic for the story. TBF it's not too bad that we still wonder IF they are traitor or loyalist but a split of the chapter would have been unique and epic.
Now that would have been an awesome subplot!! Alpha's popping up here and there "helping" loyalists and traitors alike. All the while waging a secret war amongst themselves. They did have that one short story where Alpharius sends a secret team in to destroy the device that had trapped the White Scars within one system or a cluster of systems. The subplot of that story being Alpharius was secretly helping the loyalists without Omegons knowledge or consent. I really feel like Black Library just didn't know what to do with them for whatever crazy reason. I think maybe they internalised the meme's and hated them for it.
Doesn't anyone else think that this is the case? It seems clear to me. But part of me thinks that the Alpha Legion doesn't even fully know whether it is loyalist or not. Deception upon deception upon deception can really make everyone confused.
Yes memespace, the novel "Legion" strongly hinted at Omegon disagreeing with Alpharius (although not openly) and subsequently sabotaging the traitors efforts. One of the short stories explained how an Alpha Legion suicide-squad took out the Alpha Legion's own facility that blocked communication in the system where the Khan was waging war against the Orks and therefore not aware of Horus' treason. So they were helping the Imperium in secret.
