Talia feels like the victim of an abusive father. Even if he doesn't physically hit her, he emotionally and psychologically manipulates her for his own evil ends. Talia has a chance to break free through Batman's help, but she just keeps returning to her evil father, a sadly realisitc scenario.
Talia's loyalty was always her downfall. As a kid, I wondered why Ra's al Ghul didn't pick Talia. She's strong, she's loyal, she's smart, and she can lead. She was obviously devoted to his cause. Let her lead, and she'll choose Batman anyway. I chalked it up to old fashioned sexism. So many times did I wish she would ditch her crazy father, but it's the life she's always known. It's hard to see a new world. Her date in Paris is pretty tragic, she just wanted to have fun. Her ending was always bitter sweet. Ra's al Ghul, once again, chickening out and taking the easy way out to finish his mission, no matter the ethical issues. I never thought of Terry Mcguinness as the Talia to Bruce, but it makes perfect sense. Once again, Bruce's compassion allows him to know when to rely on family to complete The Mission.
That is because she was too "loyal" she was not a real leader since she lacked her own goals she just wanted the affection of her father and Batman. She lacked an ambitious goal and so making her his heir would be pointless since she would lack her own vision.
@@Raximus3000no offense man, really. But your words are a little misguided. It has nothing to do with Talia not being a true leader because obviously she is. We've seen her lead multiple times. She is every bit as passionate and true to the cause as her father is. The real problem has nothing to do with her. It's her father refusing to have a woman as his heir. He wants a male heir, and he's even more obsessed with the Dark Knight than she is. As the guy in the video pointed out, the tragedy of Ra's is him never realizing he already had a true heir in his daughter, whom no matter how in love she was with her man, she'd always return to him.
@@alliasstar7289 When a person starts with no offence you know they are about say something stupid. Blind faith and pure loyalty are not ideal qualities in an heir. Ambition can only only fill the place of ambition, Talia was willing to put her own ambitions aside with in many case can be a noble thing but not here, the fact she has to try so hard to try and meet expectation means shes not it. Ra's ambitions required someone who won't just leave their own ambitions, or else his whole operation fails because of the stagnation brought by blind faith and pure loyalty. Someone, like Bruce who continued to be Batman until he literally physically couldn't do it anymore. If Bruce was convinced, he would've succeeded where Ra's failed. Beisdes if Ra's was able to one: convince his daughter to die for him indefinitely by taking over her body, but really he probably had other choices for bodies and only wanted her body to trick bruce in some future scheme and she agreed. Or two: Was foolish enough to let her father trick her into some crazy experiment that ends her forever, then she wouldn't good enough. The fact she failed to stop her death and Bruce even in the future with the help of one other person ended him, is proof.
@@jackswan3420 what's rather funny is that while he did have outdated views, he himself ended up becoming a woman and doing feminine stuff that too for probably decades by the time we see him again in Batman Beyond.
The tale of Talia is very tragic. Her devotion and loyalty to her father not only cost her the love of her life, it also led to her own death. At the hands of her own father! It makes their final scene in the Superman crossover even more heartbreaking because for a brief moment, Al Ghul was a concern father trying to save his daughter.
Not going to stuff like that she is my least fave love interest. See things for her gone far. One point drug batman to get an heir for her father... Wth
@@crazysonic00that was a retcon by Morrison which je admitted Fuckin up because he couldn't remember the original storyline. It's got retconed again since then. Talia never drugged him, he willingly had sex with her because they loved each other
In terms of the redesigns the characters went through, Talia was very consistent with he original design, similar to Two-Face, Clayface, Ra's al Ghul, Man-Bat (in his appearances in the tie in comics), the Phantasm, Rupert Thorne and Harley. I think I favour her suit more in BTAS but I like the adjusted face model more from her redesign.
If the story "Son of the Demon" is correct; then she gave Damien up for adoption to protect the lad from the intrinsically immoral lifestyle she herself grew up in... that'd be a good call on her part: the focus being the protection of the child- yet if a story is ever made canon by being sold for royalties, it never ever can become noncanon.
Personally, I kinda like the name changes. League of Shadows sounds more mysterious than Assassins, and it kinda fits the group's ultimate goals. And the same can be said with Deathstroke having to go by his real name, Slade, in the Teen Titans Cartoon. It just feels more creative and less try-hard.
Same. "League of Shadows" sounds so much more ominous. League of Assassins....that just makes me think of hired hitmen. It makes me think more of the League from Batman Beyond.
Honestly, in the context of the DCAU including the tie-in comics, Talia's presence had a significant impact on Batman's character development in the DCAU, much more so than Catwoman. A part of that might also have to do with the fact that I don't thin that the DCAU's Catwoman is really a stand-out adaptation of the character. I also felt that both actresses that Helen Slater and Olivia Hussey who voiced Talia in the DCAU had better chemistry with Kevin Conroy than he had with Adrienne Barbeau, which I think helped showcase a more profound emotional bond. Talia's unwavering support for Batman's mission and her willingness to sacrifice for him demonstrated a level of commitment and understanding that surpassed the DCAU dynamic between Batman and Catwoman. And regarding the voice performances of Helen Slater and Olivia Hussey, while they are a bit similar, I do prefer Olivia Hussey overall because I felt the manner of which she spoke gave a certain sophistication to Talia and her voice and accent felt more authentic and believable whereas I felt with Helen Slater sometimes felt like she was putting on an accent.
I liked Helen Slater's delivery. Though it strikes me as strange now that she sounded as if she had just recently learned English, given how fluent her father was.
@@SerumLake I'm guessing it's from "pulling one's leg," but the fact that it can be creatively misinterpreted is part of its charm. (Plus I just really like your inflection. The way you talk is as much a reason to watch these videos as what you have to say about the topics.)
I feel that generally fans get fooled by Talia. Neither she nor Bruce are in love with each other. Sure, Bruce is attracted to her in a superficial way, but definitely nothing deeper. And Talia is only in love with the idea of Bruce she’s created. She’s not actually in love with the “real deal”.
I have to say this: Reish (and not Ra'z) isn't the Hebrew pronunciation for the name of Ra's Al Ghul if you were to translate his name, it will be "Rosh Ha'Shed" "Reish" does sound like the name for the Hebrew's equivalent for the English letter "R", but "head" in Hebrew isn't "Reish", it's "Rosh" It does sound similar, but it isn't the same Also, I always saw Ra's as so old that he speak in dialect/way that doesn't exist anymore, so it make sense for him to pronounce thing differently
Thanks for clarifying! Denny O’Neil, who co-created the character, said it was probably Hebrew (he was told how to pronounce the name by Julius Schwartz) but Neal Adams, the other creator, was adamant that his name should be always be pronounced as Raz. I agree with your take though, that his name is taken from a dialect that no longer exists. I think the ambiguity adds to the mystery of the character.
So much so that some fans actually give the episode the fanon discontinuity treatment. I'm not one of them, though I do give such treatment to The Zeta Project and Batman Beyond's "Countdown". Probably will do the same to Static Shock's "Hoop Squad".
Actually, I'm a native Hebrew speaker, and the Hebrew word for "head" is "rosh", with a soft O, similar to the O sound in the Brtish pronunciation of "tall". The Hebrew O sound is completely 'round', though.
I'd love to see Talia as the main antagonist in a live-action Batman film - and no, THE DARK KNIGHT RISES doesn't count, because Bane was the focus for so much of the movie. In my mind's eye I see a young actress of Middle Eastern or South Asian descent as her, and the Batman opposing her would not be Bruce Wayne, but her and Bruce's son Damian. I think the scenario of Batman fighting his own mother would get VERY interesting, especially since she'd appear just as young as he was thanks to the Lazarus Pit.
5:07 Count Vertigo was a really generic villain in that episode. "I have a dizzying eyepatch and I'm going to steal a weapon that makes people dizzier."
She's always a mixed bag of a character for me, but one thing is for certain, a definitive take on her should be one who succeeds in moving on from making her apathetic father proud, all while ending wet blanket romantic obstacle ties with Batman/Bruce Wayne... she must become her own person, her own self. Also, the simple fact that, for good or for ill, she DESERVES to lead the League (Society) of Shadows. Times have changed enough that her father's ideals just don't work anymore at most. 0:52: So that's where a specific The Dark Knight Returns disguise idea probably originated. Yeah, a Damian Wayne tease would have been too much. Can agree that the Near-Apocalypse of '09 may have led to a partial "No Man's Land" Gotham, alongside some world destruction akin to "JLA: Babel". Heck, perhaps it could explain why the Batman Beyond era JLU feels a bit limited, especially *in case* some superheroes like Vixen died during this untold be all, end all crisis. Personal addendum: Gods, what I would give so to have Batman Beyond-styled sequel series to some of my favorite animations, Kim Possible, Steven Universe, and Gravity Falls/Amphibia/The Owl House among them.
You are aware that the whole point of her story arc is her blind devotion to her father and how it leads to her demise? You know that right otherwise you just comes off as a toxic third wave feminist?a
@@zemox2534 And believe me, it's as jarringly same old, same old as the Joker always being the Batman's endgame. Even I admit that *Superman,* be he rogue or be fighting against a rogue Batman, being an endgame option is more refreshing to me. I am a feminist, but I am curious on whatever you mean by a "toxic third-wave". Care to elaborate?
I was first introduced to Ra's Al Ghul in BTAS, more specifically in the official coloring and activity book by Golden Books. Only then did I came across Talia in Off Balance, getting ecstatic with her father's cameo at the end.
Helen Slater (Supergirl 1984) voiced Thalia in Batman Amimated Series. Olivia Hussey (Romeo and Juliet 1967) in Superman Animated Series (The Demon Reborn) and Batman Beyond (Out of The Past). Let's not forget too Stana Katic voicing Talia in Batman Arkham City😉😁
Thanks, It’ll be going live on Friday 27th. We’ll also be doing a Halloween-themed episode of our podcast, Totally Schway, on Sunday 29th. If I play my cards right I may be able to put something out on the 31st too…
I never understood why bruce timm and others kept putting talia and batman together. She was devoted to her father Ras and his quest to do over the world as the extreme environments as he was. Even withh the crreatio of Damien she saw him more as a tool and a weapon then as her son.
In the original comics Talia and Bruce built a relationship out of trust and mutual respect, sadly, the newer comics, shows, games etc, have yet to do that.
Granted, Talia basically had their story's Al Capone for her Pa, so expect her to have been trained in really evil lifestyles: the type that historically "Murder Inc" specialized in, but self-defence would absolutely be one of her skills... that said: this's refreshing in its traditional values and spine.
I love your essays, but I have to correct you on that one... In Hebrew, we say "Rosh" (ראש) for head, not "Raish" (רייש), which is the literal name of the corresponding letter for R (ר). I don't know How they came up with this pronunciation, but given how little some Jews in the US know about their heritage, I'm not surprised.
I would love a story with Ras set in the 1960s, i could see him rewarding the counter-culture as a possible alternative to his more brutal tactics. If the culture endured and really changed how humanity treated the earth, I could see Ras allowing the world to continue of its own volition, perhaps with some help from his organization. But witness8ng the fall of the counter culture and the generation as a whole descending inte decadence and greed through the 70s and 80s would only serve to reafirm his mission.
I really would like to see Talia just happy in comics or some animated version or something. Her story in BTAS is a very tragic tale of a victim and her abuser. Always doing the right thing when push comes to shove but always returning to her abuser knowing nothing else. It'd be nice if in current continuity with Damian as a main stay we saw Bruce marry Talia and take over the league of assassins and convert them into Batman incorporated. Then have Earth-2/the JSA with Selina and Helena Wayne. I kinda really can't stand Selina and Bruce together in current continuity comics anyway.
She's also basically a significantly *less sane* girlfriend of Bruce; even to the point of slipping him a "love-drug" for a "snuggle fest" between the two; that took her into a dimension populated solely by *rapists*, as that's canonically what she did to her boyfriend via drugs, for by that mechanism, she took away his ability to give true consent.
Another great video serum lake. Now as you requested, my feelings on Talia and in part extending to...Damian Wayne. First, Talia, I'm actually mixed on Talia. On one hand, she can be a compelling Villainess that can try to lure in Batman to do her bidding and proves she can't be trusted alot making a real wild. Especially when you never know if she'll betray Bruce in favor of following Ra's like a Daddy's girl and embracing her murderous nature, or break from her father to forge her own path but be not get involved with Bruce despite their mutual attraction as it could never work to due to their polarizing views. On, the other hand, there's the interperations I don't like. "I can't decide if I want daddy or a boyfriend", "I'mma drug Bruce and make him give me his seed", and "I'm just Batman's girlfriend." I strongly feel Talia's romance with Bruce depending on most situations drags her down rather than adds to her character. Talia exceeds well when she's a divisive presence that can shake up a story cause you really don't know if she'll go back to daddy or choose following Batman's example for her own better life in her own way. A side that is sadly not seen much of now a days... Now, Damian Wayne... Where to begin, the fact in only two versions of the character I've counted. He was concevied with consent in Son of the Demon and the Batman: The Brave and the Bold episode, "The Knights of Tomorrow!"; the rest of the versions however, not so much... Damian is pretty insufferable as it is, but what made me dislike him aside from the preteniousness that came with him via Tim Drake. He was just a rehash of Jason Todd and Cassandra Kain mixed together without doing something like how his original Son of the Demon or BTBATB counterparts did. But the versions of I absolutely loathe of him are the 2010s animated movies versions of him (Total Gary-stu in those movies), and his injustice counterpart(wanna kick that brat in the balls). His comic counterpart was unbearable, but it was sasitfying when Jason Todd of all people set him straight, and it just frustrated me they never let Damian in the comics develop until recently. The last annoying thing they try to push is only Damian is "suited" to take up the role as Batman due to being Bruce's flesh and blood. Yeah like his adopted kids or Lucius Fox's kid isn't worthy for the mantle. Heck even before Terry was revealed to be Bruce's son because of Amanda Waller's meddling, Terry proved overtime he was worthy of the mantle as the new Batman in the Beyond Era even before he knew what Amanda did. To be fair, I want to like mainline Damian if they just keep the line of him developing into a good person that forges his own path and not constantly regressing him into that insufferable brat that just wants to kill Tim Drake to be the "one true son" bullcrap. That's my thoughts on this matter, apologize if it's long Serum lake, but I feel VERY strongly on the matter of Talia and Damian Wayne. They're awesome when handled right, but someone who knows what they're doing. But they're can be outright boring and/or outright insufferable when handled wrong.
I can see where you’re coming from, although I do like Damien. I thought he was decent enough in the direct to DVD films (I’ve lost track of the acronym for that line of direct to dvd films - DCEAU? I dunno…) but I’m mostly familiar with his comic book version.
What I heard is the writer misremembered that Damien had been conceived while Batman was drugged and apparently just didn't bother to go read the earlier story. Comic book editors are supposed to catch that stuff, but they didn't this time.
idk if Devoted or Co-dependent imho Talia is quite the confusing character being Ra's Daughter she's more like a Female Clone how Religiously devoted she is to Ra's himself because this reeks of somehow Perfected Psychological Manipulation and Abuse making Ra's even more THE WORST FATHER POSSIBLE fitting to his Satanic title (even The Joker to Harley wasn't this thorough)
I don't know... I mean no disrespect, only frustration when I say it's hard for me to understand why this "turmoil" of a character is even being treated seriously. I'd understand if she were training Bruce and personally insisted to Ras on considering Wayne as his heir, and thusly Bruce and Talia became close. Not just "she pretty, he pretty, smash". So far both this relationship and the relationship with Catwoman operate on a cheap connection basis. ...now thinking about it, Andrea was a really cool option who became a cautionary tale for Bruce not to start treating his mask as his entire self. Also Zatanna. Or Wonder woman (DCAU). Relationships where the women don't psychologically depend on him.
@@tashibalampkin8555 ikr. That too in his daughter's body of all people. Lmao imagine him learning to adjust in his new body, high heels, makeup, Talia's clothes and what not. It's both gross as well as funny at the same time.
Ras... at Woodstock... WHY HASNT THIS COMIC BEEN WRITTEN?!?!?!?!? Why was the Demons Head at the biggest, most screwed up hippie fest ever?!?! Was he just there for the tunes? Was it him that caused the chaos? *I NEED TO KNOW!!!*
Always found her very one note. "Oh no, I love my dad, but I also love my boyfriend, can I ever choose between the two of them? Oh woe is me!" Rinse and repeat.
That's called bring compelling dude! It is the fact that she can be as kind and compassionate as Bruce, but just as ruthless as her father that makes her complex and if you can't fuckjng understand thst you just don't get storytelling
I get it. But to be fair, that's the dynamic for most Batman characters. Catwoman will always swing between hero, and villain, Dent will always be trying to get rid of Two-Face but regress, etc.
They didn't do her very well in Arkham City either. Despite there being no mention of her in Asylum you're apparently supposed to accept that Bruce and Talia are the love of each other's lives. She forces him to do the Demon Trials even though he's dying, wants Batman to kill Ra's and take over the League yet when Ra's threatens to kill her she hypocritically says "What kind of man sacrifices his own daughter?" And where Selina leaves her stuff from Strange's vault to save Bruce after the start of Protocol 10 traps him under rubble at the steel mill Talia leaves him to die. The game treats Joker killing Talia as a horrible tragedy but compared to things like him crippling Barbara, torturing Jason, killing a park owner and his terminally ill daughter in the Matter of Family DLC so him and Harley could lure Tim and Barbara to the park and kill them and so on he did Bruce a favour by killing Talia.
Since the article "al" and the mythology on ghouls doesn't necessarily exist in the Hebrew language and culture(I think their article is "ha"), I'd rather believe their special way of pronouncing the name was an Anglicization.
Great video, but as a native Hebrew speaker, his name in the animated series is not even close to Hebrew. The word for head is "Rosh" (ראש), and not "re'ish" (which is actually the name for the letter ר, the equivalent to R). "Al-ghul" is very much not in Hebrew. There is no "ghul" in Hebrew, and there isn't the prefix "al". It seems the Animated series just used a different pronunciation because they weren't any Arabic speakers on the team, and not because it's related to Hebrew (because the only similarity to Hebrew is the "sh" sound instead of an "s"). Btw, in Hebrew it would be "Rosh Ha'Shed".
The part of Talia's character I hate most is how she's supposedly torn between her dad and Bruce. If that was the case sometimes she'd side with Bruce and sometimes with Ra's. But in everything I've seen her in she always picks Ra's.
It kinda makes sense, though. She's stuck as an abused kid. And while victims of abuse CAN break away... It's hard to do even without superpowers. Now put a Lazarus pit that means your abuser can never die... yeah no wonder she sends Damian away. It's too late for her, but not for her child.
There is an explanation for why Ra's doesn't have invest in Talia, at least in the comics. He's a bit of a sexist...and believed he needs a male lead for his organization.
Honestly I never liked her and Batman paired. Their ideals are far too different for it to work. Not only that but it's awfully convenient for Ra's. Who for some reason needs a male heir as he can't just use his daughter. So it makes Batman look really dumb. Damien Wayne only exasperate my problems with the pairing as he is existence is a reminder of that. It doesn't help that he is just has the worst traits of the two without any of the positives. As a character Talia is boring. She's just a mediator between Batman and Ra's.
If the phrase "Daddy's Girl" became a person, that person would be Talia. No matter how in love and obsessed with Batman she is, the fact is she ultimately loves her father more.
“Raysh al Ghul” is translated to “feather of the demon” 😂 not “head of the demon” It was a foolish, pointless decision to suddenly change the name from the Arabic pronunciation to Hebrew. I’ve stuck with the Arabic pronunciation for years and it’s the correct meaning and way to pronounce his name, so for me he will always be RAAZ al Ghul.
I can't remember which animated thing it isn't, the series or a movie... but Talia literally says something like, "A lot of people call my father Raz, but that's wrong. It's Raysh." So because that's how it's SAID not just written, I really don't care if the Arabic would be Raz and it's the Hebrew that's Raysh, and the comics are different or whatever. As far as I'm concerned, it's Raysh. It just sounds better, imo. Also, I mean, I clearly started with the animated series... I'm a 90s kid so it's not like I could've started with anything more recent lol. So it's Raysh. Since you seem to care about ACTUALLY being correct, though... and not just rejecting reality and substituting your own like I do... maybe you also care that when you say "neither" you should say "nor" and not "or?" Either or, neither nor. When it's a negative like that, it's nor.
The fact that Talia was so loyal to her father, always returning to him no matter what. Is a large part of why I think Selena Kyle is the better love interest.
@@SerumLake He was in the Batman Beyond comics. As his dad was getting older, he used the prototype Batman Beyond suit when the League of Shadow attacked Gotham. He went missing afterwards, only to resurface years later as the heir of Ra’s Al Ghul and head of the League of Shadow.
@@alexanderchristopher6237'Curse, the Earth-12 comics (assuming this is part of that continuity and not one of the post-New 52 universes) aren't exactly the DCAU.
@@alexanderchristopher6237 yes, but those aren’t set in the DCAU continuity. I know it’s confusing, but you can generally tell based on the art style and who has written it.
