THE DIFFICULTY OF FINAL DOOM 

Cyberden is basically a short story in game form about the player being forced to take part in increasingly rigged gladiatorial fights, getting roughed up by the big boss's goons in between the bouts, and facing an angry audience of revenants at the end when all the champions are defeated.

No mention of Plutonia MAP11: Hunted? An entire maze full of Arch-Viles is terrifying and keeps ya on your toes. love that map

Dario went on to work on Half Life. That's insane!

2:48 I've been trying to get a death metal band started and I definitely want to name it Archvile

I love Final Doom. Especially Plutonia. There are two custom wads that you could consider sequels to Final Doom. One is called TNT Revolution, the other is Plutonia 2. They are very good, and I recommend you try them

Currently playing through TNT Evilution on Ultra Violence... man it's a step up in difficulty from original Doom :')

The problem with your Super Mario analogy is that Nintendo would be infinitely more likely to toss you seventeen C&D notices and a court summons before they ever tossed you a single dollar.

Finally someone talking in depth about TNT. Hope you do a video on both playstation Doom 1-2 and Final Doom. Keep up the good work.

11:52 - in all honestly? I quite like that effect. You can see that the toxic sludge is muddying up the water course downstream of clean water.

TNT had so many guys on the dev team that it inevitably meant the mapmaking talent would be all over the place.

I agree that TNT is very fucky in some places, and that Plutonia is hellish in it's design, but they both have their place as being part of final doom. TNT is more-so the types of maps that I, myself would most likely create (mostly singular fights, with the occasional arena), while Plutonia is basically a Massochist's dream (At least on UV) I, myself, have completed every single commercial wad on HMP, and I can say that every map has it's own design quirks and issues, but overall- are all fun and should be attempted at least once.

map 20 from TNT is not only excesively long, but the music track is very short, so it keeps repeating itself throughout the level and makes it feel even more like an eternity. Everytime I play that map it physically makes me feel sick

I like that 3/5 of the maps you choose for TNT at its best is Casali brother maps. I think thats telling enough why Plutonia is the more revered of the two sets in influence and plain old consistency. Enjoyed the video!

I Just absolutely love how Plutonia looks overall, especially early on.. That white, grayish sky, old mossy, vine areas with brown & gray bricks, accompanied with abandoned tech.. Really unique.. The new textures works wonders on that one, in my opinion! Grew up with Doom 2, love that game, holds special place in me lol... Some levels are definitely more surreal, abstract, but that's very charming & nice, and good in it's own way!! Plutonia's feels quite realistic, most 'coherent' in a visual sense of all classic Doom games i'v played, even more so than TNT, despite later one recreating actual real-life onjects, trucks, interior. etc... Just how i feel...

I don't really like Plutonia all that much but I will be a TNT apologist until the end of time

Doom is the only game i play hardcorely so i like both these wads. I especially like that large city map. "Don't like large maps? Play Doom 3 then."

I will always feel great pride when I beat "Go 2 It" on UV. I was actually at my best friend's house and we fucking jumped up and down when I did it.

Congo plutonia=running around in circles from revenant homing missiles after trying to get the crocket launcher

Am I the only one in the universe that loves massive exploration-vania levels. My favorite WAD that I played was Knee Deep In ZDoom that is a remake of the first episode of Doom 1 only with way more complex level design. Some levels need up to 6 different keys and a crap ton of switch hunting to solve. Not as crazy as Hexen, but close.

yo these 3 videos covering doom, doom 2 and final doom were awesome.

Loving these vids man you’ve earned a subscriber...and other than a few TNT maps I have mostly fond memories of Final Doom. Difficult at the time? Yes it was but now with wads you can download like Chillax and Sunder, Final Doom’s difficulty just pales in comparison. However I must digress and say that without Final Doom we might not have gotten all the amazing megawads we can enjoy today.

I am doing a playthrough of Final Doom right now and RU-vid recommended this video to me. I am 90 seconds into it and I am super intrigued. Good thing I got my coffee with me!

11:50 actually i think thats kind of cool looking like sewage or toxic waste being dumped into the water

This video was amazing. Time to go finish Plutonia. (I'm on the part where you said it starts to suck) I haven't played TNT Evilution in 18 years and I remember not liking it. I was going to play through it again but after watching this....I may just play the maps you recommended.

I love it... Plutonias not that hard after a few playthroughs...of each level... On pistol start on u.v. TNT gets a bad rep. Yeah it's got its big and small flaws but what wad doesn't??

The only thing that TNT got wrong with MAP23: Lunar Mining Project was that they didn't change the soundtrack for it.

Great video! I really liked the way you approached Final Doom and although I disagree with your judgement of some maps (such as The Death Domain or Go 2 It) I agree with your overall conclusion and your opinion of the WADs as a whole! I am grateful for everyone who puts their heart and hard work into keeping the Classic Doom games alive, because they are probably my favourite franchise of all time.

The hardest part of TNT is trying not to die of boredom.

I composed a short poem: Plutonia is shit Plutonia is shit Plutonia is shit Plutonia is shit. Thank you for being a wonderful audience.

The space backdrop remains as my desktop theme since 1996. Insane.

TNT starts off fine, but its middle and end are very spotty, littered with mostly bore-fests with the occasional good map here or there.

Going from Map 20 to Map 21 only to be greeted with hitscanners on three sides and an imp in the front made me search up for a TNT review and I landed here. Good to see I wasn't being too sensitive about those maps.

Zero Master finished Plutonia on Nightmare in one go without dying once. He's fucking insane.

Maps 12 and 15 are my absolute favorite in Plutonia. I love the atmosphere, level layout, the secrets and how they flow in general. Weird just how much tastes can differ.

Best old school doom exp I had. Pistol start on ultra violence every level in plutonia and tnt. Lovely puzzles

The Plutonia Experiment, in my opinion, has some fantastic action. It is easily my favorite out of the classic Doom franchise. TNT isn't all that shabby either, honestly. The secret map "Go 2 It" (Plutionia, map 32) is just so fun to me, with its hordes of enemies, and considerable difficulty (for the time, anyways. Nowadays, the community has made things that are much tougher.) the clever use of enemies is impressive for the time (using unkillable Arch-Viles to make immortal chaingunners), and quite frankly, I enjoy the amount of effort out into making it so difficult. Although, maybe I'm just a masochist.

Oof, Storage Facility a throwaway? Up to that point, you and I were in almost complete accord. I also enjoy Go 2 It. Overall, great video! Final Doom never really got the recognition that it deserved, so it's good to see people giving its two WADs a second look.

I utterly agree with the massive maps in TNT. They weren't as enjoyable and just took so long to complete. When you said the lowest of lows the first thing that came up to my head was the final hit scan room with elevated monsters in Metal. Easily one of the worst levels in TNT. Sad that such levels mar the mega WAD because there are plenty of fun levels and some awesome new music in it. The one that plays in Human BBQ is very catchy.

I agree bro. I finished TNT Evolution about 3 hours!! And now I playing Plutonia. TNT is more harder than Plutonia, but both are good games!! Good video.

Narrator: TNT and plutonia are hard as fuck Me: USES CHEATS

Great review, I recently completed both of these on UV difficulty as hadn't really played these since I was a kid, felt like a great achievement after completing, really good gameplay at parts

I'm oddly bothered by the texturing smoothing. I like my DOOM with sharp, blocky textures. :(

11:52 like, yeah? when i saw the toxic waste beeinjg wasted on the water i got amazed, its a nice details for me, and for what i can remember, its one of my favorite maps, i like the way the sewer is all round up

I'm in shock there was not a single mention to that archville maze map.

Maybe it's just me but I actually really like Plutonia's Tombstone map. Something about navigating a massive labyrinth full of enemies and a whole variety of rooms and challenges. It's the same reason why I love The Citadel from Doom 2.

I lost my sanity and marbles when I made it through the last 5 maps of The Plutonia Experiment on UV difficulty. I started singing Tina Turner's 'We dont need another hero' but changed it to 'We need another hero'.

"If I ever started a band I'd wanna name it Plutonia. It's such an fckin awesome word." M'man, for that statement, Subscribers ++

"Even if you dewy explore the rest of the map..."

20:35 "Getting the blue-key in Aztec". Yeah, I had the PlayStation version of "Final DOOM" and if the four Arachnotrons all start firing their plasma in that room the framerate t-a-n-k-s to around 10fps or even lower!

Fantastic analysis. I basically agree with each and every point you mentioned. I do, however, missed you talking about my favorite map on TNT: MAP29 - River Styx. What do you think of it? Just mediocre? And by the way, have you got a chance to play the Wad Sunder? Even though it's like 100 times harder than Plutonia, some of the maps are absolutely art, which the best aesthetic and architectonic build I have ever seen.

Funny you mention Map09 as your favorite Plutonia map, I personally don't have an issue with that map until the final room in the level. It's a pretty easy room to die in for the wrong reasons. You have Chaingunners on one end of the room, Imps on two ends, and then a Mancubus in each corner to surround you with no good spot to hide or pick them off, so wherever you stand you're going to take significant damage. Even worse is the thin circular walkway around the exit, giving you little room to avoid the enemies and there's no way out of the pits if you fall off, IMO it brings down the level with it.

More effort was put into the first half of your Final DOOM analysis than Civvie 11 put into his barely-even five minute TNT refusal rant. Good work!

Just manage to get Brutal doom and all of the vanilla wads and addons working on Ubuntu so I am excited for these old games all over again lol.

This has been the best review I have seen on these map packs.

Congo is pretty brutal as a map01 compared to other doom games - an archvile in one of the first rooms

What's wrong with Plutonia level 23, Tombstone? It has a great variety of rooms and monsters waiting in ambush. The player has to watch out for that pond which has the platforms that lower and both of which contain one arch-vile and three revenants!

Final Doom is definitive Doom for me, which is kind of sad because Plutonia and TNT don't have any original map makers doing the levels. It's just 64 maps of fun difficult shit. And yes I love TNT, I feel bad for how much hate it gets. Some levels do suck but it creates a super nice atmosphere and truly adventurous huge levels

15:28 which is why the game sends you to the beginning by killing and not resetting you to the first platform. Sending you to the beginning lends a better chance of the player noticing it

I generally hate Final DooM, but I didn't play it when I was younger and my reflexes aren't the best. I really appreciate what these WADs do, but when they are bad, they are are really bad. Plutonia was too hard for me and I didn't get to the point where the maps dropped off. TNT lost me with the bad maps. But we can't overstate how good the Casali brothers were and are. They went on the have careers in the industry based solely on how well they designed these maps.

We had the PS1 port and the PC version. I felt it was more Doom as well but it was very fun for me. Especially after the master levels of Doom 2. Felt like an endurance trial. Final Doom had more frequent weapons I felt, which gave more flexibility in gun play. It felt more like a homage to Doom 1 rather than Doom 2.

11:41 i think it really looks nice and gives the feel of a water getting toxic, anyway nice vid

Just finished both TNT Evilution and Plutonia recently, and I had a pretty good time. Ultimately, I don't think they deserve their reputations. Like, ANY of the reputations associated with them, really. Their difficulty seems exaggerated, their quality isn't too wide, their worst maps aren't that bad, the secrets aren't that obtuse, they're neither the most nor the least fun I've had with Doom, none of that. Their best maps are pretty cool, and I think that Go 2 It is a decent challenge, but especially in 2022, the standards are so far past where they were when Final Doom released that, without having the experience of playing them while new, they don't stand out in most any way. Hunted was pretty fun.

I once thought about learning how to make mods for Doom, just so I could make a game about someone going postal, starting at their workplace, smashing their computer and the entire workspace, using only they're rage-enpowered fists to get rid of anything in their path. Does that count as having berserk on the first map?

Here are the difficulties I always play on in Doom games The Ultimate Doom Ultraviolence Doom 2 Ultra violence Chex quest 1-3 Gobs of goo Final Doom TNT Ultraviolence Final Doom plutonia Ultraviolence Heretic Black plague possesses thee Hexen Don't know Hexen death Kings of the dark Citadel Don't know Strife Elite Hacx Whatever The equivalent of ultraviolence is

If you tried to release Mario mod, you would be in prison right now.

11:09 TNT E2M2 is one of my favourite maps! The wide open spaces with some water, the interesting underground water corridors and... I just really like it! 😏 06:10 TNT E0M7 ‒ Too big?? Take this statement back, I like this map! 06:55 TNT E2M7 is another one of my favourite maps! Energetic music, interesting underground-feeling places, then the map suddenly becomes a huge open area with interesting details! 😏 07:39 TNT E1M5 is another good one, the kinda circular design and the interior areas in the centre of the open space... I like to shoot monsters on this map. 17:45 Plutonia E0M2 ‒ the weird deep ass pit before the end... Uhh... Weird... 26:27 Plutonia E2M8 ‒ it's a nice open map, but it's a same I usually get tired and quit the game earlier when I play just for fun, so I usually didn't reach it. 😑 Yes, I like more maps from TNT than from Plutonia, but it is what it is ‒ Plutonia is still an enjoyable wad, but the maps have more tight spaces in general (in my opinion).

I wonder how many chaingunners or archvilles are in plutonia...

TNT... and especially Plutonia are SUPER difficult using Brutal Doom mods!

I've never understood the animosity some people had for Final Doom. It's basically more Doom for people who like Doom. Sure it's challenging, but that's kind of the point. It's designed for stinky nerds like me who have played Doom II so much they can speed run it backwards, upside down and blindfolded. For a long time it was actually my favorite iteration of Doom, until Doom 64 came along.

Love all this Doom content, good stuff

What’s really bad is that jumping puzzle you have to run through before the door closes at the end. So annoying.

I actually beat all of Plutonia before TNT because I got frustrated with the TNT level design. I actually didn’t find plutonia to be harder. Even though it can be annoying when every key spawns a massive monster closet, it doesn’t throw that many hit scanners at you in open spaces. You can always find cover or dodge the attacks of the larger demons. The only maps I found real trouble with were 30 and 32. The rest I would grind for a few hours until I could memorize the monster spawns and make a strategy for a full level run. A few of them I even survived the first time through, or beat in only a couple tries. Those were the most tightly designed maps in my opinion, and the most fair. In TNT however, the first 3 maps were pretty easy, but after that it’s just annoying level design. Either tight spaces with hit scanners spawning behind you without warning, or open spaces where hit scanners are in groups and can snipe you. You are often at the mercy of rng. Didn’t get past map 8 before stopping, since I thought the levels were garbage. Maybe I’ll get back to it when I run out of content

Tombstone was one of my favorite levels. Played it over and over to beat it

Is there any info on what modifications id made to the TNT wad upon acquiring it? Aside from adding in the two secret maps, it really seems as if the whole thing was rushed--if the botched yellow key placement in Level 31 is any indication. Until watching, I never knew that the Casali brothers designed those two maps and really helps to explain why they have such a drastically different feel compared to the rest of the game. Caribbean in particular has a vibe to it much more akin to many Plutonia maps.

You should totally cover the Doom The Way id Did wads.

Am I the only one, who actually likes Habitat? This map simply has an identity, it being the way doors open! I personally love the idea of doors working that way! Maybe I would do something like that, but maybe in a not that ugly of a map. Yet I always go everywhere on every map, so that doesn't bother me in the maps at all. I love maps that are one of the kind!

This stuff seriously kicks ass in multiplayer coop though... Because quite often when one of us triggers a trap, my kid is nearby inthe same area and the situation suddenly becomes way more strategic than it has any right to be. Get rekt? No problem -- respawn & go go go Good times!

From the sound of it… They had some fire maps but felt that it would be too short or wouldn’t feel “official” if it was under 20 maps. Plutonia’s problem sounds like they learned a lot about design but felt that “episode 2” couldn’t be shorter than EP 1. All and all, in spite of my warnings, once I sharpen up a bit, I’ll probably be giving Doom “3” a try.

That texture filtering is blinding. My poor eyes.

No mention of the missing Yellow Key in Pharaoh? To this day I don't understand how id released a commercial product containing a bug like that. Back then a lot of players were just never able to beat the map, I imagine.

For some reason, my first level of evilution at UV+ has a cyber demon

TNT: Kinda hard at beginning, later it is hard As fuck, Plutonia: Hard as hell throughout

on the last TNT map i just play with Project Brutality to jump down then walk straight to the other end before then scaling it lmao

Mt. pain is actual pain. But somehow, I love it

hey man cool vid

I gotta say I think tnt is more fun to play, but plutonia is an overall challenge deal.

11:53 I think this is the best map in tnt cuz it has these sfalls. Yes, I would want to play this if I had time

Isnt the berserker only available until the end of the level where you found it?

Let me tell you something back in 1996, there wasmt a game that made me break mpre controlers than Final DooM. I broke a old Tube TV omce playing this game

I completely missed the point of wormhole lol. Just exited the level normally lol. I feel like TNT often is as difficult as the player chooses to make it. For example, on level 3, you can make it to the exit, but you still haven’t used one of the keys. I was curious and wanted to explore, only to find the hardest part of the level withheld. (I died btw and got frustrated lol)

I played Final Doom before I ever played Doom or Doom II. Final Frontier is my favourite map.

Nice 👍

The reason I hated Pharaoh was because the initial launch of the map was broken... Literally. They forgot to place the key in the room necessary to beat the level (Actually I think it was mistakenly marked as a multiplayer item). So you couldn't beat the level without cheating. Thankfully though there was a patch for it released by TNT which I had to download separately for the wad. Of course had I known what Slade was I would have just patched it myself. That is unless you stand on that linedef of the chair where you were to hit the hidden switch without needing to reveal it. But you still can't 100% the map.

You don't mention the very stupid forgetting of the yellow key in the MAP 31 Pharaoh. In my first playing i spend days to discover this glitch button.

The difficulty in Plutonia is just right as the Casalis understood balance, proper level design/function and knowing that shoving fifty Arch-viles down your throat in the second room isn't necessary. Fan mappers can learn a lot from that, maybe then their maps won't suck.

Will this release on the App Store for I phone? I just wrapped Doom & Doom 2 couple months back. I play this on my laptop but the graphics are shit. My laptop might be outdated. I bought it in 2017.

plutonia is my favourite doom iwad. i played on HMP and i beat it on the switch port in 3 days and it was good.

Awesome video, aam, I don't want to sound rude, but, can you please scale the status bar? I can't help it, I like the big status bar.

Yo FP, my xbox came today, I'm installing doom 2016 right now. Bout to have my first even play/playthrough ever. I'm gonna record what I can.im so fucking pumped. I have a copy of eternal right next to me bufi wanna do 2016 first.

Hey FrozenParticle if you do now know but there are 50X harder wads than Plutonia and TNT. Like for example one of my favorite hardest wads is Sunder. Would you maybe do review on that wad ?