The Elder Dragons Don't Matter 

Braham watching Ryland get chewed out by Rytlock and Crecia at the end of IBS thinking "Is this a bad time to ask for my bow?"

WP does it again. He made a video that lasted longer than the actual content. :D

Big Nose Ted had more screen time than Primordus in the Icebrood Saga

Remember those days we thought we would deal with one elder dragon per expansion? Good times.

Damn, that final moment where WP shows the final cutscene of GW1 just makes all this the more heartbreaking. Because all the plots in that trailer are now closed. They are all now finished, with a bitter farewell.

They really did the Dwarves dirty. A race that condemned themselves in their entirety to fight against Primordus (for all eternity if necessary) just to have him get swept under the rug like that. So many storylines could have culminated in a double dragon takedown but here we are. As far as characters are concerned though, I did like Crecia's portrayal, declaring her shame for having birthed Ryland and in the end it's her having to console the softy Rytlock.

This is basically the gaming equivalent of what happened with Game of Thrones. It's a big long story everyone followed for a decade and eagerly await a conclusion for, but the people making it got tired of making it and wanted to move on so they hastily threw together a basic, undeveloped, rushed ending so they could be done with it.

What really bothers me is that they had this interesting story with Jormag that was just thrown out the window so that they could wrap things up. This reminds me of GoT season 8

Idk I think this was the most impressive iteration of Hungry Hungry Hippos I’ve ever seen.

Only anet is capable of having a whole expansion about dealing with Balthazar and at the same time kill two elder dragons in one episode

They did exactly what I DIDN"T want them to do. They did both elder dragons dirty, but Primordus got the worst of it.

The one thing I liked is the finishing of Ryland's story. That had a much more emotional impact on me than any of the rest, even cutting through the dissapointment of just having 2 Elder Dragons vanish

This was such a huge letdown. I couldn't believe how rushed it was. Especially compared to how they handled Kralkatorrik.

It was called "Judgment" not because of anything that happened in-game but, rather for the anticipated backlash.

Icebrood Saga: ACT 1: -Intro to Charr Stuff - intro to Norn stuff - intro to Jormag - Expansion on Charr stuff and combining both stories - STORY MISSING ACT 2: - STORY MISSING - Rallying the minor factions - STORY MISSING ACT 3: - STORY MISSING - Primordus + Jormag Death.

I was never a fan of Primordus and I still felt awful about how they handled him. Can't imagine how a GW1 veterans must have felt like...

I have never heard daddy potatoes so mad before

Can we get an F in the chat for our boy, Primordus?

The "you don't get any more footage" is genius :)))

To see the ending of "Eye of the North" right there, the original depiction of Primordus after this patch... It hurts...

even jhavi was like "so much for Jormag.and Primordus. she was as disappointed as the playerbase

I can't believe I'm watching this video right now. I can't believe this is what happened.

We in the WoW community call this the “N’zoth treatment.”

Storywise Ryland's end was literally the only best part of the update.

I've been waiting for a video with WP popping off 😂😭

WP; I can fix EVERYTHING! Next week another patch is released: It was all a Jormag mind manipulation and we are just stuck in a block of ice, thinking that we won... End of Dragons: It's 30 years later and an elderly Kasmeer has been working to thaw us out for years. Marjory died during the "great blizzard", and the rest of the group has left to go fight another dragon after fleeing Jormag's corruption. Time to go to Cantha to try find Braham, Rytlock and the others!

As I was playing this episode, I counted the amount of times WP's hopes and dreams being destroyed.

You know I fully expected return of the Dwarves to fight Primordus And I believed that Norn would be more involved since they wanted revenge on Jormag Also, Jormag had no actual plan.

They massively fucked this up. They should've put the two in the next expansion and somehow used them to bring us to cantha.

I was under the impression there was no coming back from Dragon corruption. Guess they retconned that by keeping Braham alive as well. I've been disappointed by episodes before but this one hit me different. I was one of those GW1 players waiting years to see Primordus in action and I got... this. I fear for the future of Cantha in GW2 and my memories there.

Those dragon head models are amazing. A shame they don't get utilized more.

They legitimately need to retcon this release and redo it. I genuinly believe its the only way this franchise survives

Can we get an moment of silince for the death of the story.

Living story season 3 deserved better. How we went from entering a volcano and seeing his head the size of a map basically to this is sad.

Ogdens benediction. Wow - didn't expect that cutscene to hurt that badly. Ouch.

God how I wish they just consulted WP before choosing a story path

I was physically at the event when they revealed this all, and it's just been a long series of disappointments. Let's not forget that this entire saga started with most of their time during the announcement when they spent most of their time shilling merch, pop figures, and third rate music streams. They claimed expansion level features, then delivered less than even a living world standard. The Icebrood Saga Portal Tome was data mined by that_shaman to have NINE SLOTS, which was the expected saga length. This would be three rotations of the Living World teams by the standards of seasons 3/4. We could have had maps for the depths of Tyria, Dwarven ruins, the central transport chamber, all sorts of things. What did we get to end two elder dragons? A 10 second video that ripped off Godzilla. Even mordremoth was handled better because at least we got two fights and the full Hearts and Minds instance. Plus, now even the Eye of the North feels empty now. Remember how we were collecting all these allies and they started joining us around that big table in the middle of the fortress? Well they've all packed up and left, not even giving us that visual anymore

Blizzard: "Look at this shiny plot armor we gave NPC XYZ!" A-Net: "Hold my beer"

My main issues: The cutscenes were TOO SHORT! And whenever there was a cutscene, we never saw them conclude! We see Jormag tearing open Primordus' mouth and firing their energy beam right into him, then we see nothing and are left to just assume both died. It was still an epic setting, it was a lot of fun. I loved the release. I loved the foreshadowing for the mysterious missing magic probably being sucked to the missing dragon and the fact that Aurene was NOT ready to handle all this magic at once. But it was too fast.

I was definitely waaaay to passive in my last comment. I had no idea you were so passionate about Primordus WP. A lot of what you said gave me a third eye here. The studio not caring about dragons anymore would really disappoint me to the point where GW2's atmosphere would not excite me as much as it has before. Even though the stories never had too much meat to them, I have to say, Dragon's Fall was my favorite part of the game. The power of Kralkatorik was shown so well. His entire body literally created an island that had environments wildly different from one another due to rips through space and time. Not only that, but the map was well done. Till this day, it is my favorite map. I wish every elder dragon had a way to really deliver the same punch to the audience. It was an honor to see your passion in this way. ArenaNet really needs this message.

There was one thing that I liked Crecia roasting Rayland

-I wanted to learn more lore about the norn, kodan and the spirits. -I wanted wolf and leopard shaman armour sets. -I wanted the dwarves to have an epic battle against Primordus, a fight that would be very difficult and not super easy like this one. -I wanted another snowy/alpine open world map. -Not to have two Elder Dragons killed off so fast, rushed. It feels so unrealistic. -I wish they just prioritized Jormag’s story along with the norn. -I would rather they take extra time releasing living world content, but please don’t release content like Champions.

wp spitting more fire than the lava dragon. so many good points i cant argue with any of em

Just wanted to mention that if talk to the guy with the green star instead of accepting the "leave the instance" dialogue you get taken straight down to the find the survivors part of the patch.

You know, something just occurred to me. Thematically, Fire versus Water is pretty much as iconic as Fire vs Ice. They could have kept IBS Jormag-focused and moved Primordus to clash with Bubbles later on.

When even WP is ranting away, you know Anet f*cked up somewhere

Hard agree, after the big clash I was thinking "Huh? That's it?" Then after Taimi and Gorrik's last sentence, I was waiting for something more, but I guess that was it, a whole lot of nothing.

The forums will be up tomorrow bois... Then will come the real Judgement..

Why is braham alive ? We could argue that it's for the same reason that Risen are still around; It seems that destroying a dragon doesn't kill off its minions. The question should rather be : why isn't braham still a destroyer ? Based on previous evidence, he should still be corrupted by primordius' magic, just as the mordrem and branded were.

It was clear they wanted to make Icebrood saga way bigger than a normal Living World Season, a expansion sized living world. It started so strong The prologue (bound by blood) Whisper in the dark Shadow in the ice Steel and Fire No Quarter Jormag Rising These were amazing, a lot of content, great maps, metas and story, with some pretty good voice acting and cutscenes But then it all fell apart when champions came out They had just done a great introduction to Jormag and the fight against the Icebrood, and of course they were after that going to focus on Primordus and then the final clash I would say that before it was basically cancelled the Icebrood saga would be maybe 12 episodes (the same as an expansion) What happened in champions? -The plot of the Norn wanting to focus on killing Jormag and the Arcane Council trying to help Jormag against Primordus -Jormag sending Icebrood throughout the world to freeze everything and showing that she has gone to far to be an ally -Primordus wakes up and destroyers burn the land -Braham decides to become the champion of Primordus -Jormag/Ryland and Primordus/Braham fight -Jormag and Primordus kill each other -Rytlock kills Ryland All of this in ONE episode, this is enough content for a entire season of the living world! So much, such little time The battle against Primordus and Jormag was cool, but it was literally the only thing in this patch and the lead up to it during champions was so poorly done that it makes the fight worse Not to mention that there is no ending!! Not even an epilogue about the repercussions of TWO elder dragons dying at once What's up with the wild magic that went somewhere else? Where is Caithe? Where is Bangar? What's happening to the Vigil and the warbands now that the fight is over? (I'm also annoyed that we don't see their full bodies, only their heads)

Anyone else confused on why they are fighting in this area? Maybe I just missed it, but it seems weird that they both just show up , and just like die. They don’t even talk.

21:00 Actually, Aurene said a lot of the magic escaped her and she doesn't know what happened to it

I feel like Jormags tooth was bigger than Jormag tbemself lol

Seems they were getting inspired by the Game of Throne series.

I still want to believe that Jormag tricked us. That point blank white screen hiding their destruction from us. Jormag was winning that fight before it turned all white. A fused Frostfire ED with jormags mind and primordus brute force escaping into the mists? Ofc some of their magic went off somewhere else and into Aurene tricking her to believe they are gone?

Just a reminder we did get an expansion focused on Primordius. It's called Eye of the North.

No wonder they closed the forums :P

A true fan earns the right of criticism!

something important is that this living story was not season 5, but "the icebrood saga". I suspect early on, the idea was to have an icebrood saga, a destroyer saga and only then have the showdown between the 2 dragons. they started cantha halfway through, and demanded the devs jam the destroyer saga and the showdown into the last half of the icebrood saga

This Gonna be good 🍿

My sympathies for the Deldrimor Dwarves, who exchanged the longevity of their entire civilization, just so they could fare a little better against "mere" dragon minions.. I imagine their stony balls have turned into all sorts of amethyst shades, as they heard their centuries long battle was ended in a couple minutes long final confrontation..

I wish I didn’t feel this way but I must say it. I think this release shows Anet’s poor management and incompetence, as harsh as it sounds. Don’t get me wrong - there are a lot of really passionate and talented devs at Anet. However, it’s clear those at the top have no idea what they’re doing. The Icebrood saga was poorly handled. It was extremely foolish not to start working on another expansion right after PoF. Then they tried to make the Icebrood saga feel a bit more like an expansion and failed miserably. They quickly realised it so they started working on EoD. As a result, the Icebrood saga got effectively abandoned and we ended up with this mess. Look, this patch should have been THE MOST EPIC MOMENT in the history of Guild Wars. Just imagine - two Elder Dragons fighting?! Well, sadly, it was on par with the Zhaitan fight. This video just made me realise how sad and angry this makes feel as someone who’s played Guild Wars for well over a decade. And you know what’s the worst part? That’s just what I expected. I’m not even surprised because I know that Anet doesn’t care anymore. I don’t think GW2 or Anet have any future after EoD unless they get their **** together.

Rytlock's last line "I'm sorry, i'm sorry" sounds like Arenanet apologising.

For an ice and fire themed story, they pulled such a game of thrones ending

At this point the expansion better be flawless to justify them having to compromise and rush something as important as the death of two dragons like this.

THIS! I think we shouldn't be mad at the developers themselfs. They are human beings working for a company and I am sure they do their best they can with the time and ressources they get. We should never take this to a personal level! However, and this is the point here, I think ArenaNet, as a company, just lost the connection to their own lore. WP is right! How can you dare to kill 2 elder dragons at the same time with this little ressources? This shouldn't have been a thing to begin with. Coming from Gw1, Primordus was THE ENEMIE of the whole story arc of Gw1 (beside Abaddon!). You saw that cutscene at the end? This cutscene was specificly made for the future of the GuildWars franchise! Hell, even Mordremoth got 200000% more screentime than Primordus and we didn't even know who or what Mordremoth was before Season 1! This is just outrageous! Now, I gotta say this: I think gameplay wise that Dragonstorm is a nice mission to play. I could see that for future missions. Especially the 50-Squad version, I like it! Hear me out ArenaNet: If you don't care for the story and lore, JUST STOP IT! Add a bunch of "Dragonstorm-Style" missions all around the world. Add more Strikemissions, Raids and Fractals. Push on PvP and WvW and I promise you: WE ALL BE HAPPY! BUT DO NOT ENGAGE IN STORY TELLING IF YOU DO NOT CARE ABOUT IT! You are destroying your own lore to a level where it can't be repaired anymore. What is Primordus? I don't know ... I have no idea. A "Beast" as Jormag told us? Was Jormag lying? Why was Primodus so engraged? What was the purpose? What happend to the whole "Can we trust Jormag or not?" This is just ... urgh. I'm sorry, this is just sad. I still love Gw2. I still think it's an excellent game. But it is a huge let down on the story!

For me, that small cutscene at the end looked like Jormag won by breathing ice down Primordus throat...

Oh man throwing in that end cutscenes from EotN just hit the feels in what I was expecting for this

no dragon corpses after the battle: it gives me hope that the situation can be saved somehow

In the mists : Jormag and Primordius : wtf, we died like this? What an actual waste. Joko : First time?

I'll admit. Didn't expect IBS would end with us playing through Game of Thrones season 8.

The Primordus/Jormag fight was eh. But I do like the conclusion on Ryland and Rytlock. That said, there could be a TINY TINY chance Primordus survived. Why? He still had Zhaitan magic in him, and a portion of Mordremoth magic as well. In a much larger portion as well than Jormag. Maybe we get a small epilogue as a surprise, and having that kick off the events toward EOD. Wishfull thinking, I know.

Don' t think I've ever sat through a 47 minute video that I agreed with every second of until now. Totally scuffed the story on this; has me really worried about the future narrative for EoD.

Are they really dead though ? they just dissapeared after a tiny fight and a flash... i really hope this is a verry elaborate joke before plot twist where we can really fight them...

I think in an ideal world, Icebrood would have been an expansion following a char focused season.

Why do we need to go to canthar if we can just use ley lines to summon Bubbles and then per her nose till she explodes?

That 10 seconds cinematic at the end where both dragons fight is what really threw me off. With all the hype they built around those two dragons since season 3, I expected this fight to be a one hour movie. Not 10 SECONDS. And also, I did the fight alone and not with a 50 man squad, but found it way too easy. That was personal story level of easy.

We finished the story in 10 minutes and 30 seconds. Genuinely

I still maintain my position that Jormag and Primordus merged. That's why Aurene couldn't absorb all of it. Magic on it's own shouldn't be able to escape her. There must be something else anchoring it. This is going to be my head cannon regardless of what happens next.

They kind of waffled around with the idea that Aurene can manage the magic/balance so long, that I didn't even know that was her plan until she said she absorbed some of their magic. I think Anet didn't course correct the dragon narrative, because it had no course in the first place. When they decided to pull out the leyline handwaving and whatever to pull the dragons together (and decided they would die), the least they could have done it make Aurene's plan very clear immediately. Aurene plans to hold the balance by trying to manage Primordu's and Jormag's energies. Players correctly assumed she could, but Aurene never explicitly confirmed it in game, didn't confirm it before we went out into battle. And needed to dispense with that uncertainty that early on. Because this story does have a bit of surprise twist lost in all of this mess. Aurene couldn't absorb much of Primordus' or Jormag's magic. In Aurene's voiced line, being said to the group (perhaps she says this not to alarm your allies or Anet can't edit voiced lines at that point), she says some of the magic slipped through. But, Aurene to the commander in private, with textual dialog (stuff that can probably edited right up to the release date), Aurene says most of Primordus and Jormag magic slipped past her. I was like, wait I didn't even know that was Aurene's plan, and now well it failed anyways. Even the "--My Story" blurb seems to be uncertain about Aurene's plan. "We'd figured that Aurene had absorbed their magic, but we were wrong." "We'd figured" really is something I'd say if I didn't understand or know what actually was going on. And well, at least that sentiment reflects my thought processes at the time. And... Plot armor for Braham, ugh. They put some effort into emphasizing the cost of Braham's actions. Even the spirits' survival was questioned by Bear. Characters reiterating that Braham made his choice. I dunno, this was like a surprise twist too. I am almost ready to say the uncorrupting must be another miracle on top of the missing magic. And by the way, I don't think it is supposed to be a true mystery about what happened to the magic. Since it turns out the leylines tether the dragons (I guess Jormag mention of chains and prisons are literally the leylines), it is quite logical for the deep sea dragon to have yoinked it. Who knows maybe the deep sea dragon even pulled the corruption off of some mortals as a introductory gift. I can forgive the commander and friends' plot armor if they went with that. Ugh my imagination is trying mine potential plots out of this mess. But please Anet, this, dragon that can not be named, has been so immaculately made invisible, that it doesn't even count as a character or narrative element. I don't want to see such hesitancy to make important things (like Aurene thinking she can absorb primorus and jormag) visible. We are going to see this dragon in the expansion? And it is not going to revealed at the finale and goes surprise, it was me all along, then dies.. right? If there is a real character pulling some strings, well make it a real character with presence in the story, otherwise every action it takes is just another deuse ex machina. Just give us something concrete to acknowledge the deep sea dragon exists and matters.

I tell you what, after i slept about it i have a final opinion. the world of Tyria is a giant lot more empty now than it was before the patch. just empty

Arenanet seems to have a knack for making some seemingly catastrophic story decision that kills someone, but then they awkwardly weave that someone back into the story later. So honestly, it wouldn't surprise me if they write Jormag and Primordus' "psyche" or something back into the story by utilizing that Palawa Joko resurrective goofiness that resides within Aurene after she ate him. She's got some of their magical energy within her so maybe Jormag and Primordus will constantly harass Aurene in the back of her mind the same way ancient legends harass Revenants, or they'll just "corrupt" Aurene and she'll become a monstrous amalgamation of all the different magical energies of all of the dead dragons throughout the ages and be the singular ultimatum dragon to be the "End of Dragons", lol.

I was very disappointed in this patch... Two elder dragons DIED RIGHT NEXT TO THEIR CHAMPIONS and uhhhh neither die??!?!? Primordus was the BIGGEST let down. I’ve been waiting since EotN to see him in his all his destructive glory and he’s a floating head... If anything, I think they should have had Primordus wipe the ground with Jormag and then have him super powered like Taimi and Gorrik said and then have him go against the DSD and Aurene. He moves through the surface of Tyria toward Cantha and bam, we give chase. The lead up was such as let down as well! The idea of DRMs is cool, yknow attacks on settlements and the like by destroyers but really? I figured that would be kind of like an indication that Primordus is stirring and is preparing to really appear and wreck havoc. Primordus arguably did more damage in EotN in GW1 than he did in GW2 and HE WAS AWAKE!!!! HE SHOOK TYRIA TO ITS CORE in GW1 and he was sleeping!!!! Sorry for the rant but it’s seriously a disappointment. I am definitely one of the individuals you mentioned as a Primordus fan. He was the first... To the point of refocusing the saga on Asura and Norn, imagine if ZOJJA was Jormag’s champion because of a deep desire to kill Primordus? THEN we have Zojjs vs Braham, which to me, is more interesting than Ryland giving Rytlock would want to help zojja and Braham, having both as guild mates at some point in his life and friends! Also you could kill off Zojja this way so that it actually IS impactful.

This video left more burn marks than Primordus did in the entirety of GW2.

Wonder how much NC-Soft has to do with this.

WP I think you got something wrong. You said aurene absorbed all the magic from Jormag and Primordus. But after ryland is taken care you can talk to Aurene, taimi and gorrik who all clearly say that Aurene tried to absorb it but the vast majority of the energy went into her and right back out again. So it let her diffuse the explosive energy of the release so it didn't kill everyone in the area but that energy is still running rampant in the wild now. Things are going to get crazy shortly

I just realized Primordus' horn clips through himself in the cutscene

I was tricked into high expectations by the number of people gushing over the summer release announcements.

As someone who played guild wars as a kid, who remembered opening the manuals of the original game, and reading lore about the classes and characters over and over again, who still remembers the damn smell of those manuals and the excitement of the reveal of GW2 and the Elder Dragons especially Primordus, then who played gw2 at release, loving the lore and being ok with lore mismanagement and all of that. I am kind of sad. I’m an adult now, who loves fantasy and these concepts and who harbours obvious nostalgia and sentiment for these stories, I really am a bit sad that it has ended like this. I hope somehow it gets rectified, it’s still a phenomenal and beautiful game with a great story and fantastic maps etc etc, but hey. Either way, thanks for all the content WP, big love to all of the fans and I still harbour big hopes for the future of this franchise and story!

Did Jormag actually die?. My reason for thinking Jormag might not have died are threefold and mostly based on the fact that they are portrait as cunning. 1) During the ending cut scene it appeared like Jormag was winning. 2) The disappearance of a big portion of the magic. We are thinking that bubbles took it, but what if Jormag took a part of the explosion, sending a part of their magic to Aurene to trick us. 3) Jormag is smart enough not to engage in fights they could not win and could have severed the bond with Ryland to trick us.

guildwars is the story of how the mighty can fall flat on their faces. in my opinion the story became overcomplicated and stupid after lazarus is revealed to be balthazar.

Oh wow, you just tore them a new one. You're right, of course, but it's also satisfying to hear a good WP rant every now and again. Ending it with that cut-scene which I love so much was an amazing touch. Please stream tomorrow, I wanna see some stream discussion after this video.

After this release my day is ruined and my disappointment is immeasurable.

My expectations were already so low so i wasn't dissapointed , it was alright .

This makes me sad. I have so much nostalgia for the lore and story of guild wars. And this is the end of two of the most iconic elder dragons of all of guild wars? Ouch.

"and it robbed the universe of it's stakes" - but weren't the stakes already gone? We have a commander who basically resurrected himself during POF and during season 4 we have Eir and snaff coming back from the mist to help us out and deliver a message from glint. The moment death isn't permanent and characters can come back to the land of the living, just to have tea with them (whenever they feel like it), then death doesn't mean anything at all anymore. And if death doesn't mean anything then there can be no real stakes anymore. (Eir, snaff and glint died, but the story has a plot how they came up with a plan to kill Kralkatorrik, so whoever dies in the game will still be perfectly fine and alive so to speak...). And since Glint is alive and well (like she never died) in the mists, I think it's reasonable that zhaitan, mordremoth, jormag and company are also alive and well in the mist twirling their 'thumbs'... waiting untill the plot needs them...

Question: What was the actual point of rallying people in EoTN? I saw a few in the DragonStorm meta like the Tengu, but the rest looked like Vigil and Crystal Bloom members, and I knew those would show up anyway since Aurene was there.

I don't think Rytlock broke down and cried. I thought he seemed guilty in that moment for not being around to guide Ryland as he grew up (despite being contrary to Charr culture). I think he felt responsible for the path Ryland took both for the destruction he wrought and having to end his son's life.

I remember a really compelling issue being front and center at one point, that the elder dragons need to die because they threaten all mortal life, but they can't keep killing them because every time one is eliminated things get worse, another dragon soaks up the magic and becomes as strong as two dragons and finally some lore explanation about the balance of and the nature of the magic that makes up Tyria will be revealed. But that uh, didn't come into play.. at all, ok.

It’s Game of thrones final season all over again 😤