The Excommunication of John Dehlin Pt. 2 - President Mark Jensen (5/23/2012) | Ep. 1265 

As someone who was mormon for the first half of my life, this interview is a fascinating snapshot of the difference between the mindset of committed believers and committed searchers. Like John, I was the former, now the latter. Committed believers value answers. Committed searchers value questions. Committed believers start with what they feel are unquestionable truths (God exists, Jesus is the Christ) and seek to add other truths on this framework. Committed seekers understand the epistemology this is built on, and how it is fraught. Committed believers want those around them to mirror their believes in order to build a community. Committed seekers want to understand the outsider, and don't assume their knowledge is superior to the outsider. John's legacy is attempting to bridge this gap for the church, attempting to help them expand the tent, be more inclusive, more understanding. He has more patience and commitment to this goal than anyone I've met. Mormon leadership (12 apostles) recognize his approach as the key to surviving in the 21st century, so it's shocking they left him to hang out to dry for this kangaroo court. John, your research basically lays out why the church is failing those who are "different", and you're laying out how this can be fixed, but they can't see it. It's as simple as replacing all the "I know"s and "This is the one truth" with "I believe"s and "I hope"s, and "I think this is true, but I am still learning".

You are such a patient Man. I was baptized when I was 33 into the LDS church and I left five years ago. I had a difficult time saying this is the one true church. It was good to hear you say that you had a hard time saying that also. It does feel snobbish and mean. When the missionaries interviewed me and asked me the question if I believed in Joseph Smith I told them no I wasn’t sure. Do you know what they said? They said oh it’ll come in time. And they baptized me anyway. The 20 years that I was a member of the church were the most difficult in my entire life. Finally I feel like myself again and happy.

“I will listen to you BUT only if you say what I want to hear “

I admire how composed and respectful you are throughout the interview with these clearly holier-than-thou men. Again, as I Never-Mo, I find all of this incredibly fascinating.

I never comment on RU-vid videos.... but I am appalled by the sheer judgement being placed on you and the expectation to defend yourself against it. Then not even being truly heard when you did so. I couldn't imagine walking away from an interaction like that and be encouraged.

"I consider myself a believer in God. I don't know what that means. But I have a hope that there's a God and that there's an afterlife, and I'm living as if that's true. That is my belief in God." I don't how this squares with where you're at today, but this was just so beautifully said. So grateful that I've listened to this if only for that section right there.

I am livid that he used the term "self-inflicted"! And it was literally moments after you finished telling him that the church leaders you had talked to before him don't listen and give knee jerk reactions and lectures. I'm so tired of this "choose to focus on the core doctrines" line. I hear it all the time too. It's "pay no attention to the man behind the curtain". If it doesn't ALL line up, the church isn't what it claims. That's all there is. The church INFLICTED exaggerations, half-truths and outright lies on me. I am so sick of their blame the victim mentality. By their fruits you will know them.

This is incredibly painful to listen to you go through this ...and the story gets worse! My hats off to you John, that you managed to tolerate this. I could not have. It’s truly apparent you have a mission on this earth-Thank you. Mormon Stories literally saved me.

The idiocy and pride from these two men is beyond ... they NEVER listened EVER. Simply threw out what their thoughts are. It makes me sad and angry. “Stop focusing on the thorns John- look at the petals!” This meeting was horrific. John- was amazing.

I am a BIC, ex-mormon. I served a mission in 86-88. Thank you so much for sharing this difficult experience in these episodes. I am in tears listening to this episode. Now on to my work. It hurts that I use the strength of others to stand up and talk about these experiences.

Recently discovered this podcast/RU-vid channel. I am a never Mormon, but grew up in Logan. I recognize this interaction style- being talked at, rather than being talked with. If at any point they could have acknowledged that they may learn something from you, it would be so much healthier.

They’ll never understand when your struggling, coming to church is pure suffering.

I love how these leaders you talked to proved your very study (dissertation) right and answered why it is that people don’t want to go to their leaders. The amount of Incorrect doctrine that was shared by these leaders is disturbing all while you were doing everything right according to the teachings in the scriptures. Image is everything to some of these people. If it looks good, it must be good and your intentions are in the right place 🙄 I wanted to scream every time they kept bringing up where you were on Sundays and how it wasn’t in church and that somehow that equates where you are with your testimony and journey. I could go on and on at how upsetting these discussions were...

I'm only 20 minutes into part 2 and this is already so aggravating to listen to. Mark talks down to John like he's a misbehaving child. Mark's arrogance is infuriating. I don't know how John held his composure so well.

So let me get this straight. Any person off the street can hold a temple recommend or baptize if they MOST IMPORTANTLY pay tithing and keep a couple more commandments? But for you John, because you were giving your money to other organizations and didn’t have a firm testimony you were not worthy to receive the “LDS” blessings of going to the temple or baptizing your son. That’s honestly so disgusting!!

Dude, you are amazing at keeping your cool.

Sooo frustrating. Ignore the problems, and accept what you're being told. That's the exact knee-jerk reaction John seemed to be worried about. "Whatever those thorns are". He doesn't want to know, or help. John you're a hero.

Your patience, eloquence and clarity are truly inspiring! I'm certain that I would not have been as composed or kind as you were during this process, but I appreciate having that goal to shoot for. Thank you for sharing an incredibly personal and difficult situation and using it to educate.

I’m sorry you had to go through that John. You’re very strong. But I’m also very thankful you went through that because you’ve helped me and so many other mormons, ex-mormons, and never mormons understand the ugly truth and toxicity of this broken system because of your experiences. I value your videos so much because I’ve learned so many things from them. I hope one day the members will be able to learn a healthier and more compassionate way to communicate with their fellow members that struggle with their faith. Because the way these men communicated with you makes me really sad. The church is so out of touch with the real world and how humans are supposed to treat each other, this is not the way. I will always support you and Mormon Stories Podcast, you’re truly changing the world for the better and MSP has definitely changed my world! ❤️

I've never been Mormon, but I think we can all learn something from this discussion. It's natural for me to identify with and root for John, both as an outsider and as someone who admires his articulate, rationalistic delivery. But the real, healthful challenge is to try to identify with the stake president and bishop... to deeply understand their perspective and see it in myself... to see the ways dogmatism and bias influence my own thinking. We are all vulnerable to undisciplined patterns of thought. We all naturally avoid the psychological pain of growth. Only intellectual discipline can overcome our natural desire for psychological comfort. We must be both the John Dehlin and the Mormon church leader in our own heads. Thank you for sharing, John.

Wow! John: please understand how I’m struggling with these issues and be empathetic. President/Bishop: It’s your own fault. I know what your issues are and they are not things you should focus on.

Thanks for sharing this video. I'm glad you recorded it though I hated listening to it because of the memories of my own disciplinary council meeting. I am so glad to be free of religion, especially the LDS church. In my experience, the local leadership means well but are continually uninformed of real church history and doctrinal errors, and have little to no real training to actually help anyone struggling with a crysis of faith. Telling someone to Pray and read your scriptures is equivalent to suggesting that all you need is to brainwash yourself more.

I've never been Mormon, never will be. I am Apostolic-Pentecostal. It breaks my heart that you, Dr. John, and others have to go through this!! Who are THEY to condemn anybody?! It warms my heart when you say that it's not Christ-like. I just cannot imagine having to prove myself to ordinary men. It's NOT Biblical, period.

You are an incredible man of good character, John. How you remained so calm throughout this entire communication is beyond me! Wow! As a former member of the church, I do NOT miss the feelings that these interviews once stirred in me as a young, single woman. I have only recently come across your channel here, but I can relate to so many of your guests. I have been “out” of the church since 2001, and 22 years later, I still battle with some very emotional triggers from my time in it. Thank you for being here, sharing your story, helping others share their stories and help us heal.

It seems that the position of the church is that if you are struggling with your faith, and not certain of what you believe about God, they don’t really want you to baptize your son. That’s foreign to my way of thinking. I think if I was speaking for a church, I would say to someone “Baptize your son since you and he both want that. Join us with what faith you have, and grow from there.”

They do not listen at all. This was so frustrating to listen to and I’m so sorry that you had to go through this. They need to learn empathy!

Dear John: Thank you for this spectacular gift. First of all, I am stunned with your calm and patience. It is soo healing. I loved that you quietly never permitted them to put words in your mouth or twist your words. You completely dumbfounded them, with your honesty, and willingness to insist on your right to believe your own beliefs. I grew up in the church, and left, almost against my will, in high school. I didn’t have anyone else to turn to, nor the relief that today’s internet resources can bring. Your interview so clearly brings out the irreconcilable conflict between the heavy load of required dogma and the individual’s sincere seeking to comprehend the mystery of the Creator. “If you would only…………..you would be where the faith oughta be”. He’s shouting from the other side of the chasm. “What do I have to believe to be legitimate?” This recording is from 2012. It’s an INCREDIBLY vulnerable, blazing, searing question. Thank you for this.

Always felt wrong to me that grown people in the church were treated like children. Always needing approval from bishops and a priesthood holder present at events.

One of the tenants of any kind of counseling, including religious counseling, is the necessity of trust. They are definitely not fostering a trusting environment, they don't even really trust themselves to do this, and you definitely don't trust them. It's really painful to listen to the lack of a trusting environment in this entire conversation. How could they have expect there to be any progress if they hadn't built a relationship that fostered trust?

The arrogance displayed by these gatekeepers is palpable.

"i could get anyone off the street, and if they did the tithing I could get them to do anything" yeah, ok....now we saw a glimpse of transparency within the LDS church

Wow, the "interviewers" are not the sharpest tools in the shed. Well done, John.

John, thank you so much for sharing. I've not yet made it through all of the recordings, I'm currently in the middle of the second recording with Stake President Mark Jensen. I have been continuing to read the book "The Good Heart," with words and commentary by the Dalai Lama at a conference he was invited to speak at, where he was surrounded by those whose spiritual views differ from his own in many ways. Something that one of the other religious leaders, Father Laurence Freedom, said made me think of you and your interview with President Jensen (p.128) - "The point of the exercise of dialogue is not to come up with final answers but to find a deeper and fuller vision of the Truth, which contains and fills all -- and which ultimately, as Jesus said, will set us all free from fear and ignorance." I wish for more people to be comfortable doing what you did and being where you were in your mind at the time of this interview - being okay with saying, "I don't know." I wish for more church leaders to be comfortable with members being in this place of unknowing and for leaders themselves to be okay with not knowing, and to not shame themselves or others for feeling the way they feel. I wish for all of us to honor the truth of ourselves and others and have compassion and respect for each individual's spiritual path in life. John, my life is better because of you and your efforts to keep asking questions, your efforts to be open and transparent with yourself and others, and your practice of compassion and love. May you be well and continue to feel loved and supported by many. Thank you for loving and supporting us, your fellow-human beings, no matter our differences in views, feelings, outlook on life, and experience.

I found the rose and thorns analogy particularly galling. This guy is equating noticing the thorns, and acknowledging the thorns, with “focusing on” the thorns. It’s his own refusal to even acknowledge the thorns that brings them into sharp focus in the first place. And his further implication that acknowledging the thorns is a mental, emotional, or spiritual sickness - that implication is particularly, ironically perverse.

"if you don't believe exactly how I believe we don't want you around."

Ugh! “...you called it your journey of faith or whatever”. This guy is such a condescending and arrogant jerk. He repeatedly insists on putting words into John’s mouth. He came with these thoughts in his head and nothing was going to change his mind.

Thanks for sharing this, John. This guy .... the endowment of power is strong with this one. So incredulous to the possibility that anyone could be in the boat and decide to step out at all. And for anyone to tell you that any part of your faith 'journey or whatever' is 'self-inflicted' is very indicative of the power dynamic he believes exists. I can't believe he spent this long talking with you to end up really saying so little and really get nowhere in attempting to understand you. It's clear that if you can't believe enough to pay your full tithe, then you should get off the field and quit being a bad example to the rest of the players. Glad this part is all behind you.

Honestly, this meeting would've been the nail in the coffin for me to leave the church. He couldn't answer any questions other than saying it's best to not even think about them or any concerns.

I was told 30 years ago that I wasn't welcome at church, although they stopped short of excommunicating me and I won't resign until my parents have passed. One thing that has really struck me since is that 90% of the Mormon church's problems are problems of their own making. These interviews just reinforce that. I am so glad I got to live my adult life outside the church. One of my favourite things is challenging the missionaries and members who still knock on my door unsolicited on the subject of blessings as all the things they say on the blessings you will receive for following the gospel have happened to me and I am not following the gospel. I know it sounds awful saying I challenge them, but they can't seem to go half an hour with me without throwing out their own challenge, to read the book of Mormon, to pray, to commit to church, to stop smoking etc. It always strikes me that most of these people have only ever known life in the church and they can't actually compare it to a life without the gospel as they have no experience of it. I would probably be more likely to take them up on their challenges if there was a bit of come and go and they were willing to change their way of life for a bit.

Wow! I’m 35 minutes into this and I find these two men to be complete jerks. John, you give them way too much credit. I’m cringing as I hear them mistreat you. They are clueless about how many LDS church members attend church and perform ordinances while they’re in a faith crisis or not fully believing in the church doctrine.

A lot of nervous laughter from the leaders.

John, you have my utmost respect for all of the work you do.

This is fascinating! Thank you for posting this!

You sound so vulnerable here. I am willing to bet this conversation would play out a lot differently today. Maybe Leaders in all churches will find out some day none of us have a factual knowledge of where we are all headed after this life, or maybe we will never know when this life leaves each of us.

All I hear is "mmhmm." Which means, not really listening.

Hi John I’ve been listening to your Podcasts on YT about your Excommunication. So much is swimming through my mind and trying to keep it straight. I hear so much pain in your voice. Please, these are just men and they think they are listening and empathizing but they don’t know how to do that. Your answers are between you and God and His Son who Sacrificed his life for all of us. I understand what you are saying and what your heart is feeling. I love your Podcasts and listening to you, You have so much to share and it isn’t just about Mormonism. It’s about humanity and how we treat one another. Thank you so much for sharing these very personal interviews. I’m sending love, strength and prayers to you. I hope I haven’t written out of turn but I wanted to share my thoughts with you.

Often times, when people get angry about disbelief or opposing opinion of religion/ faith, it is because it feels threatening to them.

Some of Mr. Jensen’s conversational tactics - such as the friendly condescension, gaslighting, lecturing, empty platitudes, mansplaining, and so on - are so familiar to me as a Gen-X woman from a misogynistic, patriarchal community. But I am surprised to hear so many local LDS leaders talking to John the same way. From a cultural perspective, at the very least, John is so unassailable. It’s almost comforting to witness him being talked down to and willfully ignored in such a way: It makes all the times I’ve been treated the same way less personal, more about the ignorant, brazen speakers than about my own somewhat underprivileged position. In any case, John, your patience and articulateness under fire was well done.

We see the rose!!! We see it. We also see the thorns. We're asking if you see them, too. And instead of a serious conversation we're just getting no no no these don't matter. Don't worry if you get pricked and bleed. Focus on the rose. Pretend like the pain you're feeling doesn't exist. G.a.s.l.i.g.h.t.i.n.g.

You were trying to find ways to stay and he was looking for the way to see you out. Then practically said if you were totally put off by the Book of Mormon then he wouldn’t help you but if you weren’t completely gone then he would - both scenarios deserve attention! The person who is totally given up, even more so! Wow just wow. To hear a leader say - if you are just sick over our book then what’s the point? WHUT.

I wish I could afford the audacity these men seem to have in abundance.

John like my experience sharing my faith crisis. The leaders never have any answers. President Jensen sincerely asks how he can help you. Then you open up and discuss a dozen issues which to he has ZERO answers. Your experience was similar to mine.

This is interesting. Yet, there are other Mormon men and women who are the same as John was but don't get excommunicated. I think they simply did so because he had a public podcast where he discussed all of his thoughts and feelings (his journey and others).

What he's questioning is what you want. "Why do you want to baptize your son?"... That's up to the individual, not anyone or thing beyond the individual. If he asked me why I want to baptize my child. "Well president let me ask you for help, why would anyone or you want to baptize your child? " I'll bet the same reasons... Love your child, support your child, etc. This guy 😤🤦‍♂️

As a former Catholic, I struggled with so many of these issues with men in Roman collars who wouldn't, couldn't, and didn't listen. Mostly, though, they wouldn't and didn't hear. I happily excommuncated myself and never looked back.

Stk Pres: "I think you call it your journey of faith or whatever. ". "Reparative therapy, you'll have define that for me" Me:

I can see what you mean by how much they disregard your questions... without even realizing that they're doing it! All because they do not know the answers. They end up trying to pull anything different than average, back to the average... which is anti- personal revelation in effect, when you think about it. It is very sad. A perfect example of why so many don't bring these questions to the 'brethren'. I found it healthier to step away from these pressures and inherited beliefs entirely as I worked on nurturing my understanding of the truth (without the normative bias), and only go back (if desired) once that had been accomplished. A meddling third party can only interfere with the development of one's relationship with God. You did great!

They are so demeaning and seem like they just want you to give up so they can go home and eat dinner with their families.

Listening to your perspective has helped me to find God again. Thank you.

He just kept trying to twist your words. I agree with your stance on things 150%. I've been judged by others and its not a good feeling. Thank you for standing up for what is right!

It’s great to have these public. This is what you get when dealing with these poor men in leadership. Listening to John try to help these guys understand was painful. And hearing them be so dense and so uninspired was just embarrassing. Unfortunately this is typical. Very similar to my own experiences though I was less patient. Hearing their brains strain to reach beyond correlated thought was just sad. To relive this via these interviews was so helpful. I’d forgotten how simple the minds of these types of men are. And it reminds me of why I could never sit across a desk from one of these types again. Literally from the get go John was having to explain the meaning of words to them. Hearing them try to understand John’s work and his samples for research... these men may be “good” as John says but man are they simpletons.

I appreciate your courage to allow us to listen to these very personal interviews . In the first interview with your bishop you never said you didn’t believe in God and the mission of Christ to teach us to LOVE . I also loved what you said about why you wanted to baptize your sweet son. Shouldn’t that be reason enough for you to be able to gift your son that blessing if he wants it . Interesting how they back pedal and deny you not meeting with them . It’s been my experience that when you interview with people who want to be right its very frustrating . Grateful for the wonderful mission and work you are about at this time in helping many of us that have had faith crisis experiences . 🙏❤️❤️❤️

I made it halfway through. This is painful

This is painful to me because I recently talked to my bishop about my concerns before I baptized my daughter. This is exactly how I was afraid it would go.

John asking mark jensen if he has to believe the earth is only 6000 years old in a dead serious tone cracked me up lol what a legend john is

As a non-Mormon it’s very odd that they acknowledge there are issues with the legitimacy of the doctrine and the first vision but are just going to have faith and press on? Giving this response to someone struggling with their faith is crazy

John has it all over the Bishop... Bishop almost laughs at John. John replies in a calm, manner to every issue the Bishop raises... Go John!❤🙏

John. You should be thanking these bishops and SPs!! After all, they played a pivotal part in your awakening and, thus your exit!!

Holy cow. This is painful. Jensen can’t hear a thing John says. He is just trying over and over to get John to say “your right. I think the church is total BS. “. (Which it is, actually) 😃

Pretty much these guys are saying that “there’s only one way to live the gospel of the church and hoping isn’t enough.”

🤬🤬🤬 "The Lord didn't want them to mix with them. So he made them a little different"

1st comment. Thanks John for putting these up. I always like learning more about you. :)

The ultimate irony here is that they demonstrated exactly why most people aren't comfortable coming to their church "leaders" with their doubts about the "gospel".

I'm glad the stake president at least didn't refute Johns claims of the inconsistencies, because most members gaslight you, or think you are lying. So this was new to me seeing a stake president admit there are a lot of issues with the BoM.

This is so triggering to me. You kept your composer....I have been there and did not keep my composure - I told a Bishop once, (after I used an expletive at him) if you are called of God - then the church can't be true - You're a good man Charlie Brown

I’m a never-mo but I find that these issues are found, to a lesser degree, in the mainstream Christian church. These issues lead to me not attending brick and mortar churches. Here is what I identified with while listening. Thank you for continually using your voice to speak towards the church for those who don’t have a voice. They might not listen but I bet the woman of the LDS church and those in the church that identify with LGBTQ+ community find hope with your words! I’m sorry they pushed you out but it is indicative of the major issues within the organization. If you speak up against the status quo, then you aren’t welcome. They repeatedly question you and bypass the real purpose of your conversation. He said, “Help me understand…” but in the rest of the conversation he gave vague answers and didn’t seem to hear you.

I love how the answer to questioning the teachings of a church is always to read the bible and participate in church more. Like, that's where the questions are coming from!

I am Presbyterian but I live in the Bible Belt so I know lots of denominations. I’m not extremely religious but I do know that my God is forgiving, loving, and understanding. My brother is Buddhist but I believe my God loves and watches over everyone… including the non-believers because He Is God and he loves without conditions.

Edit: Part 1 was the interview with James Stephenson. I didn’t get too fired up over him…but these two ciphers…sheesh. John ran circles around them and here are the receipts!

Around the 43 min Mark...perfect example of Gaslighting!

This type of religious investigation is what happens when man invents a system that elevates himself to the place that Jesus alone should have in a Believer's life. 1 Timothy 2:5. Edit: At 1:19:20 the bishop says that "coming to church would be of benefit and it is something I told you the first time we met, long time ago, that you needed to do." Wow. Jesus died to bring us freedom, so that we would WANT to gather with fellow believers, not so some religious system could put us into chains, dictating to us what we "need to do."

“Hold on, lemme hold your son’s salvation hostage while I enjoy this petty tyranny I worked so hard for.” What an absolute tool.

Never realized that presidents and bishops became professional interrogators

John, you opened yourself up so much! To punish your for having questions was so wrong, I am sorry!

Oh my!! 😲😲😲 Did he just say @1:07:38...."I know there is a LOT of problems with the Book of Mormon?!?" Can he really admit this and expect the members not to have concerns? Please don't be like the Jehovah's Witnesses!! I had to leave them and it sounds like I'm listening to them all over again! SMH

He asked “How was this [teaching] received?” and John responded “Very well.” 🤣 I laughed heartily out loud in my car. This is a local leader who knows age has no power over the man he’s interrogating.

I've watched all of these before. The algorithm put it in my feed again. I'm just here to comment hugs and loves to you. What a sad and mean process.

“We’re not very knowledgeable John and clearly we are ignorant, but we know all! so pipe down and do what we say!” What a bunch of crap. John you are a good man!

Bless them, thise two never stood a chance. They were unprepeared to meet an educated and researched questioning parishioner. No way they could answer anything properly, all I'm hearing is sales talk. I feel for the people relying on these people for reassurance and support 😢

Respect John! On multiple levels. Thank you for sharing.

I appreciate your courage and commitment. Your interviews and videos help me learn every day since I discovered you.

The equivocating by Jensen speaks VOLUMES. And, Dehlin, navigated the discussion brilliantly and effectively. The key phrase in all these matters is the ability to say, "I don't know." instead of making completely unsupported claims. Eight versions of the first vision? JUST WOW! Again, so telling as to the flagrant fraud going on with this church.

I love that Elder Holland said that to you. He is the most loving and down to earth apostle. I left the church but I love that man!

The rose and thorn analogy! You could also say that if you hand someone a rose then you should absolutely say here’s a beautiful rose but be careful if the thorns. They could stick you. And the person would then either accept the rose carefully or decide that they don’t want the thorns. That is an informed decision!!

Notice how tithing was one of the primary concerns. $$$$$

I'm Presbyterian and it's crazy to me that you can get hauled in front of leaders and get chastised for how you speak about your personal faith. I'm not saying my church is perfect but at least we can be honest with our pastors without worrying about getting kicked out.

These two church leaders are a classic example of listening to RESPOND instead of listening to UNDERSTAND. The 50-minute mark of the video is infuriating. John literally tells them what he wants from them...which is to try to understand where John is coming from and address and empathize with the actual concerns he has. Instead of confirming John's point, President Jensen interjects the atonement out of context which was his way of telling John "Hey, I gotcha there!" John, thank you for being you. Thank you for blazing a path for those of us who have questions and can't simply "believe" our way through the issues. I know I speak for a lot of people here. What you had to go through was completely unfair, and what you still go through with your name defamation by church apologists is completely unfair. Thank you for providing clarity and doing it in a way that is both tasteful and factually based. Please know that your work has helped my wife and I more than we could ever express. We both come from families that are still 100% in the church. We have no one to turn to or talk to about these issues. You are where we find clarity and comfort. Thank you!

First, neither of these guys have done their homework. They double-speak, prevaricate and come off sounding like used car salesmen. The first gentleman in part 1 just expressed concern and asked how he could help. But second, and more irritating, these guys in part 2 of these conversations say “We can’t know everything,” but when John expresses he doesn’t know if a particular item of church doctrine is true, then to them, HE’S wrong. They’re clearly not John’s intellectual match, they’re clearly more miffed that he’s working in the larger community, and they’d rather he just shut up so they can go back to their comfy unchallenged, soft little lives. Pfffft.

I had to laugh at the rose analogy. When I bought my house, it came with a small patch of several rose bushes. Yes they are pretty but I got so tired of getting poked by the thorns that I ripped those stinking things out. I have a pretty strong distain for roses now. I now have lilacs 😊.

It is absolutely astounding to me that this church has a single member if this is how they treat someone in a faith crisis. The degree of surveillance on you alone is disturbing - they're watching you, they want to discuss specifics about your church attendance and frequency of meetings. As a never-Mormon I cannot imagine putting up with this. That being said, I understand there are systems in place that build up to this to make it feel tolerable to members.