The Exquisite Irony of Claudine Gay's Downfall | Glenn Loury & John McWhorter | The Glenn Show 

I was in teacher training and another student teacher said there was no reason to teach black students about dead white men like Socrates etc. I was horrified and blew up. I told everyone I was going in the opposite direction because I believed the kids could learn at the highest level and I was going to teach the fuck out of them. They were going to know everything I could possibly teach, that I wanted them smarter than everyone else. I taught history for 24 years and I never lowered standards for my students. I lectured every single day. They took tests which would’ve been very hard for senior level college students (in fact a former student of mine received his masters in history at the University of Chicago and said my class he took as junior was far more rigorous.) My students did massive year long research projects and I never let up. It was boot camp. And guess what? They LOVED it. I gave a damn about their brains. They always rose to the challenge. That’s why affirmative action is dead wrong. These kids CAN do it and be prepared for any intellectual challenge.

I love the way these two guys really LISTEN to each other. They aren't just waiting for their turn to talk. We need more of this!

John, I really appreciate your charity for Claudine Gay, it I feel like her resignation letter blaming the whole thing on racism destroyed any charitable interpretation of her intentions.

IMAGINE all the people she hurt,fired, cancelled,and censored on her way to the top

She wasn't raised to be excellent? Wasn't her father an engineer and her mother a nurse? Didn't she go to a private boarding school? It isn't like she was raised by a single mother on welfare in a poor neighborhood. BTW, I was a single mother on welfare living in a poor neighborhood and I now have a master's degree - and I have never plagiarized any of the essays I wrote.

Two PEOPLE (not colors) sharing different view points respectfully and authentically. Such a privilege to hear this without having to pay tuition. Thank you gentlemen for your voices.

Glenn, please keep telling the “uncomfortable truth.”

I attended/graduated from Quinnipiac University 35 years ago; when I started in the mid-1980's, the board had just elected a new President, John Lahey. After earning 4 degrees (BA, MA, MA, PhD), he took QU from being a small private college to a nationally recognized powerhouse university, adding a school of law and a medical school (Yale and UConn being the only other two in CT) He served 31 years, and by the time he retired, he was the second highest paid college president in the country. That's a college President!

There’s always a “reason” someone did what they did, even when it’s lying and cheating over decades. Claudine Gay had plenty of opportunities to find a profession she was qualified for. She chose instead to play the high-stakes con-artist game for money and status. Unlike John, I have no sympathy for this Ivy League “academic” still taking home a $900,000-a-year Harvard president’s salary. If someone wants to give you a position you don’t deserve (yet), just tell them you appreciate the opportunity but prefer to wait until you’re ready. It’s called integrity, and even the “elite” should have it.

I also grew up on the South Side of Chicago, late 50's to mid 70's. I was told and I believed that all white people were racist, even if they sincerely denied it. They were racist and didn't even realize their racism. I was told that being black very frequently (or even always) placed someone at a disadvantage with respect to Whites. I interpreted that as Black people would have to work harder for their gains. I was told that the experience of being Black in America was unique in the world and that no other race or people could understand that. The narrative I heard as a child was constant, and as a child it was difficult to have adequate critical thinking capacity to deconstruct these assumptions of reality. At the same time, there was an alternative narrative, one less strident, which came from some educators, churches, and others that through hard work one could succeed just as well as White people, and Black people did not need any special accommodation.The special accommodation was it itself patronizing, and beneath the dignity of a Black person with self respect. Black people were as obviously as intelligent and capable as anyone else. There were plenty of examples to be found of Black men and women on the South side of Chicago who had worked hard and were successful in their own right; and some in the face of real racism. I suspect that there were alternative narratives and examples in many places; and that people like Claudine Gay and Kendi heard and saw them and ultimately rejected them and chose the narrative they promote, and began to oppose those other narratives. I strongly disagree that they are not responsible for their positions on DEI and racism. To not hold them responsible is to dehumanize them. Where does that end?! That is the same thinking of helplessness that led to things like affirmative action. They are intelligent responsible adults. They have at least been exposed to alternative ideas but have chosen to disregard them. In fact, in the case of Ms Gay, she has actively tried to stamp them out, even when a Black professor, Dr. Fryer, was almost certainly helping more Black children succeed in education with self respect and hard work than she has; and doing some pretty good social science research as well. His work and research has enormous potential. Arguably Gay and Kendi, and others like them, have not demonstrated adequate effort to consider a broad range views, to critically evaluate those perspectives as well as their own, and to do serious social science research in the subjects related to racism and DEI appropriate to their positions. If we deny their responsibility, we deny their agency. If we do that we must have a working theory to account for their lack of agency and which stands up to scrutiny, and in the same way, we must have an adequate social theory as to how some are not helpless, but escape those narratives and how others are helpless before them. There are millions of Black people who have not been helpless in the face of the various toxic narratives, including the two of you as outstanding examples. I think a little bit of anger is understandable. At the same time I do believe we must be charitable and compassionate. I am convinced that these toxic narratives can be turned around, but to do so will require a lot of work and a solid grasp of the precognitive narrative based worldview assumptions upon which they are constructed. There is of course the darker elements of this which might fall under the will to power...

We need a campaign for Roland Fryer as Harvard's new president. Richly deserved in light of Gay's attack on him.

I’m a PhD Geologist about half a decade out of my PhD. I got a fellowship and thanks to COVID I am no longe in Academia. I say this, because I am shocked by her academic “record”. I have 14 papers and nearly 300 citations in 7 years. She has 10 papers and 2 citations. TWO! In 20 years, and plagiarised whole swaths of work. How is that possible? That somebody like that wins, and I and thousands of other academics of similar productivity lose and out of academia?

Man up and woman up!! I love Glenn’s passion. What is John talking about, “It’s not her fault”? Women, even extremely privileged ones, have agency, and a conscience. This strikes me as the soft bigotry of low expectations.

As an asian parent, the thing that bothers me most about affirmative action is the fact that kids are pretending not to be asian. It's the effect that this has on the asian identity in these young people. Imagine being an immigrant that grew up in a very different culture speaking a different language and your kids actually do know the society better than you, it is very easy for them to be dismissive of your views. And then they are told that they are better off lying about their ancestry on college applications. It is one thing to assimilate, it is another to be told to run from your identity because it hurts you. The kids are not stupid, no matter how many times you say that it doesn't hurt them, every piece of data that comes out tells them that it does. This is a result of making it not only acceptable but "virtuous" to tolerate or even endorse racism against asians. ---------------------- I saw the debate you had where lawrence tribe video conferenced in for a few minutes and people were basically calling you a liar for saying that standards were being lowered to achieve diversity at highly selective schools. I was embarrassed for them.

No writing books is a lot different than PLAGIARIZING over 50 times. So, not only did she not write books, she couldn't even write an article without stealing other people's ideas!

To give someone a pass card because she had no sense of integrity and recognition of her own abilities is not good enough. This sits at the base of so much that is collapsing our society. We all have a capacity to know what’s right and wrong and if this woman is educated and would have been brought up with a sense of morally and ethics then she is culpable. She’s not a moron. Don’t excuse her. In the end her disgusting attitude to Jews was the final straw. Thank you Glen for your wisdom and your sense of justice and fairness.

Should the fact that she refused to provide the raw data from her doctorial thesis have raised red flags?

So saddening for all those of us who work extremely hard to succeed, to see the administrative triumph of UNcompetence.

I only studied a little in high school and avoided some challenging classes. I was always a good reader who loved books, comics, films, etc. When I took the SAT, I was informed that I did not qualify for much. I spent many good years at community colleges. I moved to Santa Barbara and aimed to attend UC Santa Barbara. Until... I realized I would have to spend years playing catch up and was not promised a seat at the table. I did the next best thing: I attended Cerritos College and Cal State Fullerton. I knew I was a decent enough student but accomplished much at the right institutions. I paid my way through college and never felt "less than" anyone else. I wanted to enjoy myself while doing college. Sometimes, it's best to stay in one's own lane. My step-brothers are professors at prestigious universities and went to CalTech and UC Berkeley to study mathematics and physics.

This is the hard honest conversation that no one really wants to have. Thank you both for speaking the truth. Unfortunately, and sadly, I don't see this reality getting much traction in the wider conversation.

As a Brown University applied math-economics alumnus from several decades ago, I regret not having had the opportunity to have listened to, interacted with, and learned from Prof Loury. The current students are very lucky to have that opportunity. I am grateful that I can listen to him on RU-vid, and as a recruited athlete admit and given his academic standards, it is probably better for me that way!

Glenn, you just made a grown man cry! What you said is completely correct, and, coming from you, the real deal, a kid from the south side of Chicago, we now have the TRUTH. I’m ignored for white privilege. But you just can’t be denied! THANK YOU!

Glen is absolutely correct and yet John wants to give her a “pass” with the excuse of “she was raised that way. She is a product of that corrupt system.”

Professor Loury nails it again! 👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾🇺🇸❤️

I friggin' love Glenn Loury. ❤ No one tells it like it is as honestly as he does and as beautifully articulated. I think I'll write him in for president this year. :)

Excellent as always. It's so hard to make a reasonable argument without being called insensitive or racist.

I have been waiting for you gentlemen to give your thoughts on this issue. Like you both I've read Gay's papers and pedestrian is a kind description. I can still remember the days when the admittedly rare sighting of a black person in certain positions virtually guaranteed that that person was the best in his/ her field. Meritocracy used to trump racism now racism trumps merit.

I think that we need to broaden this conversation. The concept of merit is under attack in every discipline and in every profession in America. We are regressing as a culture. We are doing so because of the discomfort that attends achievement. I recently read this statement by a Soldier: “you should do something everyday that is uncomfortable and challenges you.” As a culture we have embraced comfort and ease to the degree that we no longer understand that one must struggle to overcome our own potential for mediocrity in order to achieve our potential for excellence.

Columbia once had a President named Eisenhower who's best known written work was called "Operation Overlord". University presidents should be good at running stuff, but they should also not be plagiarists.

The analytical rigor from Glenn is impressive. Excellence is developed through deep subject mastery, not via phony noblesse oblige. It helps the individual and society so much more than quotas.

Why doesn't Penny Pritzger put her inherited wealth into her home town's (Chicago) public schools, instead of Harvard? This segment was Glenn at his absolute best!

Claudine Gay has devalued the currency of every black person. I feel sorry for those blacks who legitimately earned their position, like Glenn and John. The effects of this devaluation will be devastating to the black community.

As an Australian, it is so depressing to hear stories from you two about how corrupt academia is, and how you (left of centre Classical Liberals) are viewed as misguided, and even downright reprehensible. So glad you raised Rowland Fryer and Gay's role in his "de-fenistration".

The longer Claudine Gay stays on at Harvard the more reputational harm is caused. If she left tomorrow it would still take a long time for the university to claw back it's standing. It's hard to put the poop back into the camel.

I love listening to Glenn and John, so honest in their opinion, thought provoking, unafraid.

Professor Loury, yours is the best explication that I've seen of all that is at stake in this appalling series of events at Harvard. The Harvard from which I earned my degree long ago has been utterly eclipsed and degraded by the social action orientation and policies of DEI there, including what is now happening in most of its graduate schools. The votes by the faculty supporting Gay show either an utter failure to grasp all that is at stake or a widespread fear that dissent would spell extreme trouble for those who objected. Only a few excellent universities--like the University of Chicago and its leadership--have rejected the hypocrisy and destructive force of DEI.

The country needs more voices like you gentlemen🧐

The whole country needs to llisten to this !

This has to be so frustrating when you see some book, like that one by Robin Diangelo, celebrated as if it has ANY value. It hurts the mind so much that it’s hard to think of some response to the nonsense promoted.

Glenn is so correct in his observation about Ms Gay's academic record. A "copy and paste" approach is the height of mediocrity. She demonstrated a copy and paste approach in her testimony in Congress as well, just mouthing the words she was clearly told by lawyers, rather than thinking in the moment and speaking from her own point of view after deep consideration of the subject.

Thank you for mentioning your freind ROLAND FRYER ! Gay threw him under the bus ! That is much worse than plageirism. Yes , thank you for mentioning him . Never forget what they did to ROLAND FRYER !

Claudine Gay has checked every affirmative action box on every application since she was in high school. Race? Check. Gender? Check. Haircut? Check. Last Name? Check. . . . you get the point. She did this in high school, undergrad, graduate school, jobs in academia. But now finally it has caught up to her that she has obtained everything because of affirmative action. Disgraceful.

Thankyou what you’re saying is absolutely spot on. She is a disgrace to her counterpart academics. The system is corrupt 👌

John is the perfect example of “not settling for crumbs.” He may have been given crumbs, but he rose to the level of Master by having grit and determination, proving by his own merits that he deserved that dignifying position.

Right and wrong do not depend on who you are. Believing they do is a serious moral mistake.

You both get it. Thank you! Last year, when I shared some research (an article) with our high school staff (Bay Area, CA), which positively correlated student achievement with teachers' high expectations for students, I was called a racist. Yes... the system is completely corrupt and not holding students to high standards does them a disfavor and hurts them in the long run. When you treat students like victims, you are further victimizing them. It is much better to help them be resilient and showing them how to empower themselves to reach higher.

Question for John - How little agency do you expect black people like Claudine Gay to have? The defense of "that's all she's known" seems pretty condescending and kind of alienating. Like we can't relate to (people like) her? How can you account for yourself not being like her? (Love this podcast and both Glenn + John)

These two are very rational logical thinkers, it's a pity there aren't more like them in positions of power.

Glen is spot on here!

Brilliant response from Glenn, the world is a better place with people of his calibre in it. I always find his comments to be thoughtfull and thought provoking.

These are such great discussions and should have a long shelf-life. Decades ago, I use work at a black student center at the university tutoring students in their mathematics, physics, chemistry, and other science courses during some of my grad school years. Affirmative action in its best form would force institutions to find those gifted and talented students that may not have gone to good schools or had the best mentors. This would be good for all demographics. Eventually the hope, is that once students are caught up no additional allowances are needed.

★★★★★ Excellent discussion, gentlemen. Thank you.

When we're talking about institutions that are to keep us at the "cutting edge" in global competition, your competence and proven track record should determine who ends up there. I was a "distracted but intelligent student" good but not great grades out of HS. If I was "purple"...should any of our top schools have admitted me?...NO! I got "woke"....not the current woke but became fully self aware and focused...did some years at a community college, made the honor roll all semesters.... I transferred to a top 10 university...got two degrees and had a very successful high tech career...that's the way it's supposed to work. All other countries "test into" their best schools even high schools...they don't waste very valuable seats on so-so students and doing so will put us in the rear view mirror if we keep this up!

Thank you for describing what happened at Harvard as ‘corruption’. It clarified for me what happened, and placed in the larger context of what has happened to the United States. I live in Alberta, where many of us believe that corruption describes current socio-political behavior in Canada.

A good heart, a solid character, and a delightful spirit and mind have no color.

There's a lot of truth in what's being discussed here In fact, I think this needs to be discussed by more people

John and Glenn, thank you for having these hard conversations. I'm glad we get to listen to them which helps us with our thinking on the recent fallouts.

Tough conversation to hear, but necessary.

The amount of energy I get from these guys is just unbelievable.

❤❤❤❤🎉🎉 love this channel. Thank you so much for enlightening me.

I really love the conversations you two have. Thank you!

I am pleased that these e two men chosed to deal with Gay's situation. Their views are same as mine. I am pleased to know that I have not lost my mind!

Every time I watch these gentlemen engage on a subject I learn something new and, perhaps more importantly, I learn how to be a better thinker. Sincerest thanks and gratitude for enabling us to sit in on these conversations. ❤

Ms. Gay played this card to the hilt. Personal workplace experiences in public, nonprofit, and private sectors include power trips, back channel management, humiliation, dishonesty and abuse from these opportunistic individuals. I and others who read the game plan got out early. Others couldn’t take that chance and accepted the compromises. Most importantly, the missions and purpose of the agencies and organizations were ultimately undermined. Small stuff by comparison to this issue perhaps, but pervasive all the same.

Love you two guys!

This has always been my biggest frustration and I think it’s best expressed by Joe Biden when he said “Poor kids are just as bright and just as talented as white kids!”. There’s this implication that black kids are automatically poor or unable to do something all other kids are able to and that’s simply not true. I grew up in the 80’s and 90’s so most of my early education and socialisation was a drive towards colour blindness and I lament that it went away. I have worked in some fantastically “diverse” environments at a decently technical level where people were picked for their skills not their skin and everybody helped that company become hugely profitable. But it wasn’t our skin that did that but our brains and they all look the damn same. The loss of colour blindness frustrates the crap out of me because the alternative is harmful not helpful. You’ll only ever do enough to climb as high as the bar is set and if that’s lowered for some in some misguided attempt to “equalise” things then all you do is drive the standards for that group down. You’re not helping them excel. 😕

great stuff as always!

At Stanford in the late 1970's, the typical African American student had richer parents than me. The smarter ones, it seemed to me, were actually from poor backgrounds and did overcome something. But they were much fewer, I think.

10 years ago I attended a local university for another degree. After seeing the mostly black students argue with our professors about their test scores, asking to have extra time on papers or not pulling their weight in team presentations, I went to the department head and told him I was not proud of this degree, that the standards had been “dumbed down.”

I love these conversations - timely, insightful, intelligent and impactful.

Having spent a lifetime attending lectures, debates, and discussions (I once had the pleasure of hearing William F. Buckley and Dick Gregory lecture on successive nights), and being bored by most discussions offered on the Internet tubes, I found these two gentlemen as engaging and insightful as any two gentlemen I have heard.

John, you cut her too much slack just as you do for Kendi. At a certain point, people who are advanced simply because they have the right skin color, realize it and are confronted with a choice: either embrace and perpetuate that system, or work harder to retroactively earn the status one has received. Both Gay and Kendi affirmatively chose the former.

I am so impressed with this conversation between you two guys because of your frankness and honest sharing and expressing your opinions, even opposing thoughts, so comfortably.

Thank you for these conversations.

Love these two! Thank you guys!

Love watching you two talk and debate. Keep at it we need more of this.

I have huge respect for both of you. You both made good points about Claudine Gay. I'm Canadian and hadn't looked into her background. I didn't realize she came from a Haitian family who were already successful in Haiti. I was not impressed with how she handled herself in front of the Congressional committee. Soon after I heard about people reporting she plagiarized her academic work. I hope she has learned from this experience.

A really excellent conversation. Thank you!

this is. a fantastic conversation. thank you gentlemen

I completely agree with Glenn on this. Id be embarrassed and ashamed to get anything so easily handed to me on the basis of my race as opposed to my merits.

Is it really a downfall if she is still hired as a professor (to teach what exactly, and should she), doesn't lose her doctorate, and still receives a whopping $900,000 a year salary? I only heard this through the grape vine...but she certainly doesn't seem- nor any of them of any institution- seem all that upset about her plight. I wouldn't be surprised if she is down right martyred for her loyalty to the cause, rewarded, movie and theater reenactments by Tyler Perry, book deals, paid speaking engagements, profitable non-profits, statues and murals erected, and maybe even a wing of a building or whole departments in honor of her struggle for DEI.

I just love the intelligent exchange of ideas on this podcast.

Thank you. I always learn watching and listening to your discussions.

This is a great conversation. People speaking truth.

Noting but admiration and respect for these gentlemen. I’m sure Thomas Sowell grins when he thinks of Glenn and John. Well done 👍

You two are amazing even when or often times when you disagree..so articilate..

SUCH great conversation

Gentlemen, well done. Thank you

My problem and let me admit it is my problem, is I fully endorsed Glenn’s righteous anger at this situation, but I also understand that John doesn’t want to be angry and point the finger at Claudine Gay, because he is a man of upmost integrity, and he has a calm demeanor, which I wish I could have. So in conclusion, my problem is I agree with both of them, but I tend to be more like Glenn.

“She can’t help it…” But…YOU could help it, John. Why are you giving this woman a pass that you yourself knew not to take?

What a fantastic discussion, so many great points made and countered. Well done!

You two gentlemen are extraordinary. I appreciate your candor and insight.

Been waiting for this topic since gays ignominious downfall . Also , Glenn for president of the United States ( I’m aware he’s far too smart to want the job ).

Man, its so weird to hear John not understand the argument of merit. “She didn’t know any better because she was raised in this environment” is a WILD argument. Glenns points seem much better here. Also, what of all the students who got smacked for violation of “honor” code..every one of them that has been booted out under her tenure should file claims

Hello Glenn…I am a Black American, older than you both and became a Navy Jet Aircraft Carrier Pilot in my day. I [earned] the Navy Wings of Gold. Unlike academia, you TRUELY have to succeed in all aspects of training. The reason I could wear my Navy Wings so proudly and be respected by all the white pilots is because unlike your academic process to your top…there will or can always be a “question” of the work. Landing on an aircraft carrier, in the middle of the night-in the rain, with the flight deck moving around-there is no question of ability-there is no focus on your color-there is no grade shaving just because your Black to keep you in-so when you bring yourself and the tax payers multimillion dollar machine back aboard day after day, night after night …everyone knows you’re the real deal! No way to fake your game!

Thanks again, dudes. Happy New Year!

Thank you both very much for sharing your time and work, John, and Glenn, peace

Why can John never assign responsibility?

Thank You for this discussion … very enlightening … cannot get a discussion like this anywhere else … and I’m glad to have been introduced to Roland Fryer …

Love you guys! Thanks so much for sharing your honest thoughts!