The way Nathan sits low in his chair and his posture in other pics just screams "I got this project dumped on me and now I have to be the bad parent telling the kids who are super hyped for a Disneyland trip we could never hope to afford that it's cancelled"
Unfortunately Jurnalism is Jurnalism and they won't let you be honest Even if you guys like Angry Joe for his "cynical persona" and yelling at games that yes should be yelled at, in that interview he acted like prime example why people hate journalists
@@masterzoroark6664 Yeah you could tell with each question Joe asked the knife dug a bit deeper and the dude looked like he was a bit annoyed by Joe. He couldnt wait for that convention to be over.
In a way, I do feel sorry for Nathan. Coming in and taking over a project from someone else, who, it turns out, promised a hundred million things about said project that you feel you can't deliver on, is hard. Especially since you now have to tell all the people who were promised these things, and paid money for them, that they can't have them. And are they gonna blame the guy who made the promises? Some of them, yes. But most of them? No. Most of them are going to blame you, because you are the one who didn't keep those promises. Don't promise what you can't deliver on, and if you've promised something you have to deliver on it. Of course, it sucks for Nathan that he is the one who has to deliver on Miguel's impossible promises. But while I feel sorry for Nathan, and don't blame him for the entire debacle(Miguel is also to blame for a massive chunk of it and there were tons of things that went wrong), Nathan isn't entirely blameless. He may have tried to hint at Eternal Crusade not, initially at least, being what was promised, but he never made it super clear either. He was just sort of walking on eggshells when discussing it. And how many people DID see those interviews he did? Speaking for myself, I never watched any of them. I was just waiting for trailers and reviews when the game came out. That gameplay trailer was the first horrible indication I had that the open world mmo I was looking forward to had mutated into an arena shooter. I wonder if it would have been better if Nathan, instead of trying to skirt around it and insinuate things in interviews, just went straight to the heart of the matter and contacted all the people who'd invested and said "What Miguel promised you I can't deliver on. It is not feasible to create the single server open world mmo he promised. At most we can create an arena shooter. Everyone who doesn't want that can get their money back." At least I wouldn't feel lied to if he'd done that. Sadly, I'm pretty sure the modern games industry doesn't allow you to be that honest. And of course, people not getting refunds is really shitty. It has to be clear to everyone that what they paid for isn't what they're getting, and it has to be easy for them to get a refund. At the end of the day I am still just angry that I didn't get the game I was promised. And no apologies, engine troubles, financing issues, refunds, lack of refunds, impossible to keep promises, staff changes, interviews with subtle hints, unasked for arena shooters, asshole publishers, bad marketing, non-disclosure agreements, or any other of the things that went into this shit stew can change the fact that I'm angry because I didn't get the game I was promised.
@@vozu13 At least Star Citizen is honest with its pay model, though. And I desperately hope SC has a better ending, though I'm afraid I'll be watching a video like this about it one day.
During the middle of the crusade, the glorious leader leaves and is replaced by a new warmaster- I mean lead dev. The fanbase splits in two, creating a civil war between the loyalists and the disillusioned. By the end of the war, the game is shell of its former vision. Looks like life imitates art.
The interview with nathan and the hyped guy is really telling. It's delusion vs reality. On the left we have someone with no clue of games development living in the dream of the blue sky phase where the game can be all these things and on the right you have the actual game designer who knows what makes a good game just unable to bring the hype back to reality.
It's was delusional for miguel to promise all these grandiose game design decisions without a fun core game, it was delusional of the people promised this to not realise that no game had achieved this scope before. It was then delusional for the fans to hate Nathan for being the only one at the helm to be honest and realisitic about timescales and what players can expect. You can't be mad at the man who is trying to steer away from the traffic after the madman in the back said he'll get the car to fly before it hits oncoming traffic.
@@BAGG8BAGG Two months late, but whatever. I was someone who never quite believed in Miguel's vision, so I was fine with Nathan coming along and offering a much more realistic vision. Despite that, Nathan still failed to deliver. I was fine with a much finer scope, but the game just wasn't that great. It felt quite clunky, they could never quite get the balance right, and they spent too much time reworking all the systems. All I really wanted from Nathan was basically a polished Battlefield in 40k, but the end result just wasn't that great. I still played the game for a over 1k hours, and I don't have any regrets over spending money for my Founder's Pack. I just regret that the game couldn't be better and had to die. I regret that we likely won't have another online 40k shooter, or a 40k MMO.
Man imagine being Nathan and being put in charge of a job where basically somebody promised a million dollar mansion and it's just a hundred dollar shed and you have to explain to the buyer why it's that way.
This is why you normally wouldn't have a guy like Miguel run rampant like that. He's basically doing a pitch to a company to get funding, but hes doing it to his future audience instead, before his game had even started manifesting itself.
Pretty sure they just bought a bunch of sets to show off during those videos to convince people that they were the real deal. I'm not saying the weren't 40K fans, but they were clearly giving all those boxes so much screen time for a reason.
I dont think "passion" is the right word for Miguel.. he was a hype man. And he was hype for his own game. He's the kind of guy you DO NOT PUT in front of a camera because he has no idea how much work these features take to implement because frankly he very likely isn't the one working on the actual game. He's a fan in a position of power. That is REALLY dangerous.
Correction: He's the kind if guy you put in front of a camera at the very end of a project, when everything has been planned out and you're just completing the final rounds of bug fixes before release. That way, whatever he says will be in the game is already implemented and he can't come out with something that you haven't got the time, money or crew to make.
How as you are heard in the interviews and such, Miguel bought licences and products(codes scripts, etc etc.) what are totally had been worked out or had been abandoned due to the game it has been made for got cancelled, so needed some finishing touches, and they bought those and tried to put it into the game. What are turned out to be not working at all, on basic levels, or wasnt integrated to the engine they used, so they had to salvage it, how later on, Natan admits that they bought a shit ton of crap, what are those promises was, but they didnt worked, and they couldnt salvage it either. I personally not try to defend either side, but making an opinion with only half truth is ignorance. My only issue was with the game, that after they dropped it, they stopped. They slowly reduced the dev team one after another, to the point, when it was literally 2 guy doing all the patches, new stuffs for over a year if not more, and then the only person whom was working on the project was 1 person whom wasnt even an IT guy. And he watched over EC for its last 1,5half year. Alone. That guy deserves some respect. My only issue is that they didnt even tried to finish there game. To the point where you can say that game worth its price. I like Warhammer games, be AoS or Old world, WH40/30k but when a game of theres drop, I read a lot of stuff about it, before even buying it. Cause most of there games never totally finished., or just an cash grab.
No Man's Sky is another example of the fact that YOU SHOULD NEVER MAKE A DEVELOPER A SPOKESPERSON. Either shut up about the development and promises of your game, or have a PR person take care of that. He drastically overestimated his team's technological capability. 1000 players in one map? Dude we can't even do that NOW. That would have been so much lag back in 2014, people would crash so much.
"It's called life" No Miguel, it's called integrity. Life has nothing to do with it. It's simple, don't make promises you can't keep or aren't sure you can keep.
I loved Natural selection and you’re right they did balance that well. The way Miguel was describing the combat, it sounded like 4 orks players would be equal to one space marine player.
@@PonchaYT Trouble is who is going to want to play an Ork if you are constantly being smashed by space marines. Orks should not feel weak they are a race born for war.
@@andrewkirkland1452 This only applies if its a 1v1, but if the orks play as they should and outnumber the sm in combat to such a degree they need that opness, i guarantee you it would be sm players that whine since emphasis on quality coupled with sm faction naturally drawing in newbies and 12yr olds meant sm players would have to fight smart and weak players not pulling their weight would be a major hindrance. By contrast the kind of players drawn to perceived underdog and swarm factions are more likely to be team oriented since they will have less of an ego problem and understand they need to work together to win or die horribly.
@@libertinarey yeah but how many people want to be orks vs sm? if you let people choose evryone will choose sm. your arguments dont hold since most mmo thrive on 1v1 aswell as team fights. lets face it, lore accurate warhammer 40k wont work as an mmo
I was out there on the front lines, and let me tell you: "they promised too much" is only half the story. Even when they scaled back to something they could deliver, they could still barely deliver. They bled team members the moment the beta came out. In less than a year there was NOBODY working on the game. Like two people desperately trying to squeeze out one or two more minor promises
I felt my spine leaving my body at how awkward that Angryjoe interview was- Like oh my g od- He was trying to tell you that the dream of the old game is dead and he's just going on about all these impossible things that are clearly not happpening. It's just so painful to watch-
Angry Joe Should've changed his channel name to Hyped up Moron ages ago. Then again, nowadays he goes by the moniker of Sad José, which is also fitting.
Imagine being a developer for this game listening to all these promises being made by your boss. Just imagine the pain thinking "how the hell are we going to do these things on time?"...
"I will just get back to my desk... and not think about it. Luckly I'm getting payed by the hour and not game features." Still depressing for them tho.. just imagine working on a game you love but know it will die before it gets fully realised... °-° Probably that was not that big motivation for the team working on it, slowing them down more.
@@endcraftable "Luckly I'm getting payed by the hour and not game features." The developer is probably more so thinking "Shoot, this game and studio are gonna die and I'm gonna have to find another salary job in a year."
I'd quit on the spot. That was incredibly shitty of him. People like him should stick to being developers and need to quit opening their mouths. He was very disconnected from his dev team and knew hardly anything that was truely being worked on and developed. 90% of what Miguel said was a bunch of hype with almost no end result, besides a failure.
I honestly think I would quit the job on the spot if I heard my boss give one of those Miguel speeches. You just know you're wasting your time on a product that will never see the light of day. And you know (especially in the video game industry) that you're the one who's going to have to work his ass with unpaid overtime to get even basic shit done on what is probably even a small budget. A long time ago I read some stories and interviews about how the actual developers behind the original Fable felt when they heard one of Peter Molyneux's speeches during a game show. I think there was some point where the team was watching a live presentation when one of the lead developers broke down into tears and went home because he couldn't take it anymore. That's what this sort of behavior does to your colleagues.
I feel abit sad for Nathan. Having to say "There was a big dream and I crushed it". Having to take responsibility for something he had nothing to do with. Becoming the reason people didn't get the game they were promised and breaking promises he hadn't given. Having to come in as a realist after the dreamer promised everything and then some. Realising alot of those promises were either straight up unrealistic or so expensive they needed to be put into the game at a later stage.
he worked on eve online. That dev team is full of realist's AND dreamers who are in a constant state of the dreamers promising something ground breaking, and the realists who make it clear a year or two later "we let the dreamers try, knowing they would probably fail. and they did."
Honestly, the new guy went too hard into the "I'm an asshole" route and it really makes the game/company look unappealing. I know what he was trying to do, but I think he botched it catastrophically. Nathan and Miguel both seem like douchebags in different ways.
Peter Malenuoex (not bothering spellchecking for his name), Hodd Toward, and the fellow from Hello games being perfect examples (tbf, last example less so. His case was a bit more complicated. I feel for the people behind the game, but the games still sucks for what it is)
The worst part about Nathan leaving was HOW he left: For months before he left, he had promised to basically hand over the game-development to the player-community by adding a workshop to EC to allow players to add game-content and by allowing the players to write the background-story. (You know, the continuous, on-going RPG background-story that was supposed to be written by Graham McNeill.) Some players began programming assets in Blender. Some began creating characters and storyboarding storylines that would meld into one epic story of the war of Arkhona. bE even added a FAQ-section how the workshop would work. With bated breath we waited for Nathan to finally open the workshop... And then came the announcement that he had just packed his bags and had left.
@@PonchaYT I joined EC a while after Miguel had left, so I didn't experience the first hype, but watching these old clips I made a stunning observation: Nathans went through 3 mental stages during his time working on EC. At first, Nathan was a cold professional who tried to trim Miguel's wild vision into something feasible. Then he started believing his team's own hype and dropped his professionalism. He got dragged in and repeated Miguels's mistake of making unrealistic promises. The last stage was desperation: As the game lay dying, Nathan blatantly lied to the community, tried to conjure up waves of hype again and again and again and again. Did he do that because he wanted to stop the people from leaving? Did he do that because he wanted to show bE management that this game still has a fan-base?
No one should ever let the players write the background story. Just look at the attitudes of many of the players in regards to Eldar. They just wanted the Eldar to suck and the game to be just Space Marine v Space Marine. Their idea of balance would have been whatever would make Eldar most unplayable.
This was my first 40k game, and while definitely not the best game it was a lovely little gem for me and around 30 other people. The servers shut down around 30 minutes ago at the time of posting this and I was lucky enough to be there at the end, taking screenshots while posing with around 12 other battle brothers. This game was special, and i hope another like it (not abandoned by devs and actually finished though) comes around someday.
I played back when it was no longer available to order on Xbox. •30-40 players a side per battle lobby •Tanks and ground vehicles Playable •Orks • Eldar •Space Marine •Chaos Space Marine •Tyranid invasions from time to time •Tyranid Deathwing styled combat in buildings •Squad leaders like in Battlefield I’d sum it up as Battlefield without air or naval combat
@@Hanzo615That’s a really fair criticism. I was probably biased on that statement. I guess it’s because I’ve spoken to many devs and they always discretely say publishers made us do that or this, we did not want to. I guess in my head. I see so many people attack devs when they can’t respond because of the NDA and they need someone to speak their voice.
Great video. A true example of biting off way more than you can chew. In reality this project never stood a chance and just goes to show how much 40k fans of which I consider myself one are marks and gauged for money. Warhammer as a hobby is just insanely expensive. Give me spaced marine 2 THQ god damn it.
41:03 It's pretty much a given that Joe can't do interviews. The frustration on his face just screams that he wants to tell Joe to shut up for a minute.
@@jumi9342 I remember watching it way back and just internally screaming for him to SHUT THE HELL UP AND LET THE MAN TALK FOR 5 MINUTES! I don't think I ever watched the whole "interview" because of it.
@TheDude Lebowski There's so many things that you could criticise him for and out of all of them you decided that him saying a word wrong (by one vowel) is proof that he's a fake fan. I swear, some people are living satire of normal humans
Could have been great, and I feel we all fell into a trap. I know that I regret getting into it for several reasons. Excellent video! Matches a lot of thoughts people brought to me, along with being close to discussions I had with some of the devs. It was a rough time for all.
Honestly, it sounds more like people with a dream or an idea facing a bitter reality. People with an idea, but may be not enough coding experience. Then once reality sets in, the fickle audience turns a blind eye and refuses to support them. This is basically No Man's Sky, Bad Ending version. There may have been too many conflicts with the code, animations and models, and map design simply because they were able to obtain assets from a _single player_ game and tried to make it multiplayer.
No, it never could have been great. Behavior Interactive would have never ever ever been able to deliver on the vision they were hyping up. They never even managed to deliver a solid arena multiplayer shooter. And even though I applaud Nathan's more realistic approach to slowly building out the game, that actually wasn't realistic either. First of all, because Behavior wasn't even capable of delivering the MVP product Nathan envisioned, and because video games traditionally have a lot of trouble working with iterative designs (even though it's an approach that works very well with other types of software). The complex and gnarly nature of a lot of video game codebases can make them very inflexible. And I don't for a single second believe that Behavior was ever going to be capable of building the tech required to allow for these massive networked battles. The reality is that there are simply an incredible amount of very tough technical problems that this brings to the table (many of which industry leaders *and* academics have not been able to solve to this very day), and if you haven't already dealt with that technical complexity in the MVP version of the game, you simply will not be able to reuse it a basis for the larger vision. You would have to rewrite most of the systems and networking from scratch. And that's just the technical stuff. There are tons of very difficult game design issues that a game with a scope this vast presents you with. What I'm trying to say is, the original proposition was *never* going to happen. Even large, very well-funded companies would have problems pulling this off.
Just wanted to say I’ve been living the repercussions of testicular cancer, and whilst the game wasn’t THAT bad, I will say that at the cancer got me morphine...
Disagree. The way they did this whole milking was very succesfull, this is a success story, on the expence of the fans and employees. When they swiched to Unreal MMO was out the window and they know it. And a success in the beggining too the reason they didnt admit its a croudfunding with strech goals... They actualy made millions! and able to hide it. :D Its so clever. This was a successfull project, but no one wanted to deliver a game so sad :(
In my opinion they straight up promised too much. That game would have taken years to make and they announced far too early for the hype to be maintained for that amount of time. All of the promises they made in the beginning just screams of amateur developers who needed someone to come in and focus the design of the game to get it out in any amount of time. Sadly that fell to Nathan and at that point if he had walked back on too many of the promises they would have basically lost all of their funding. Did Bandai force the game out too soon, of course, but honestly as soon as I heard 1000 players, open world, four factions, etc etc etc I knew it was either going to disappoint or end up taking years to finish.
@ combat is very different, planet side 2 dose it but they have struggled for years even the hit detection is handled client side.. there is a reason no one else has tried to do a real mmo fps since..
It seemed believable when it was announced to me simply because of the relative success of planetside. I liked PS2 but the progression and monetisation is what turned me off ps a bit. Little did we know large scale FPS would be too hard to pull off again and PS2 was a mammoth effort on its own
I've been there since 2013, couple of remarks: -Nathan was way more deceptive than he appears in this video; he purged the forums from people who didn't agree, and he said some dumb stuff like "but this game IS persistent, the score and character progress persists, so technically it's a persistent world!" which is plain deceptive. - Nathan never really admitted what was going on and slinked away in the night. -Fanboy chaptermaster Valrak was a (imo terrible) moderator there and was part of the tendency to shut down any opinions that weren't singing EC's praise. He also at one point called for people to leave positive reviews on steam. (so his comment on here makes me chuckle) -EC was a perfect storm of incompetent devs ( Miguel) dishonest devs (Nathan) warhammer fanboys ready to jump on the next hypetrain ( Valrak) which failed at identifying its targetaudience. There were some lolz to be had, like Angry Joe burning the game down to the ground during the launch stream he got hired to do by said game, Nathan trying bully and threaten players on the forum with being able to recover their steam ID's and get em banned from Steam, etc. This video let em off relatively easy.
@@Andreazor Still, he can give you or your product a great way of attention. I don't like Joe either, but he has a big audience and developers know that. That's why they contact them and try to get them talk about their product, even though they are complete tools and bots who will say everything you want, if you throw enogh money at them.
Poncha, you are now the Internet Historian for us 40k fans. The memes in your magnum opus here were magnificent.Very entertaining and informative at the same time.
Thanks mate. I took inspiration from a lot youtubers for this one. Historian, pyro, mr boss. I wanted to make content that was worth watching. I’m glad you liked it. Makes it worth editing.
Based on this video, Eternal Crusade did not exist until players started buying Founders Packs. After starting its development process, the development team realized there was no way they could fund the game they were promising so they forced Miguel out and brought in someone that could competently lead the team, Nathan. Nathan realized that he was brought into a hot mess of a game that was nowhere near completion, and needed funding to save whatever they could. There was no way they would be able to convince players to spend more money on the game, especially in its current state, so they signed on with a publisher. The publisher saw the writing on the wall and forced the developers to push the game out to recoup their losses because publishers are a business, not a charity, causing an unfinished product to be pushed out well before it was ready. I'm not convinced this was the publisher's fault, which was a conclusion hinted at in the video, but rather the development team reaching for the stars without first building a stable launch pad to send the rocket up. It was nice and all that the development team was passionate about the game, but they clearly did not have leadership capable of making a game that was grounded in reality. If Eternal Crusade was advertised as a crowd funded game which stretch goals as you pointed out, that would've been far better. The 40K community would've loved to have funded that game if they had a clear idea of what their money was building, not grandiose promises that the development team thought would be great, but couldn't possibly deliver on. Say what you will about Star Citizen, but Chris Roberts told his backers exactly what their money would be paying for and was able to obtain an absurd amount of money for it.
It's almost as if you need some kind of coherent management team to work these things out... how in hell did it ever get to the stage it did? Just horrendous mismanagement.
So true! As I said in my comment, the entirerty of assets the game had by the time the first gameplay streams started, could have been made by the team of 10 industry-average workers in two-three weeks. Given a couple months, those could have been the assets of Dark Millenium level. The fact that bE had spent YEARS on this garbage said it all. The devs just had a crooked zero of an art team and art director. All assets were horrible, animations crude. This team clearly had no real production resourses at all. Their first trailer with the game assets told me all there was to say.
@@leegarner4592 Some people are just too excited about what their imagination conjures up about the future to admit how unrealistic they're being. I make that mistake myself sometimes.
@@k-leb4671 The problem is that this continues to happen. Anthem, Cyberpunk, all examples of people continuing to hype themselves up, fall for all the crap the devs say and never bothering to temper their expectations.
I think Miguel had unrealistic expectations, he had the experience to realise the difference between a dream game and what was realistically possible but for some reason got carried away and made promises he knew he couldn't keep. He looks like he jumped ship and Nathan was left holding the bag trying to redefine what the end product would honestly be.
IT HAS HAPPENED TODAY 6/10/2021 - They are officially shutting down the servers. They give up. 9/10/2021 is the day this slow withering pain ends. I remember the good days on the forums before the launch, the optimism, the excitement. What a load of crap....
It is the nature of the beast. The longer they are waiting for the finished product the more money they are losing. The reality is it might never have been released considering what eventually was forced out and Bandai would have got nothing,
At some point the game needs to come out, I can't totally blame bandai for throwing the game out since by that point it was a directionless money sink.
Yeah I was considered one of the best medics in the game and also one of the best on a character called Lazarus. Shame the game died but I don’t blame that for happening considering what 2K did.
@@invaderHUNK sad to be honest mate. Knowing how much work and love the devs put into that game for 2K to do day one dlc. The game got a back rep and it was scarred from then on. Even when it went free to play the damage was done. Evolve was marketed in a bad way being aimed toward the casual player. When the game was more of the complete opposite. If you have two teams going up against each other who knew what they were doing it was one of the best experiences and nothing has come close since. Evolve does need a video defending it, my brother might being doing that. His name is grizzlemarine in my channel box, he was a big RU-vidr for it and it broke him when it got cancelled.
@@PonchaYT thanks for taking the time for my questions, looking forward to your bro’s video. Hope the dev team gets another shot, they’re working on another FPS slated to come out this year. Maybe we’ll see Evolve 2: Stage 2 in a couple years?
I feel bad for Mr. Nathan to be honest, I believe he really wanted to make the game as best as possible. I really enjoyed this video! I hope to see more like this.
54:10 You're a surprisingly good looking chap. (No homo) But seriously, great vid, watched the whole thing. Well made, passionate, but fair - not a mindless rant or unfair digs (though I wouldn't blame any 40K fan for making those.....) I think more fans need to hold Games Workshop to account however. I can't, off-hand, think of an IP that has been as poorly utilised as 40K. It's shambolic and that's putting it nicely.
Haha, I work out regally and almost have a six pack so I hope I don't look too bad. Funny thing is from the angle I look obese as hell but I have very big shoulders. Yeah I'm really trying to improve my content from mindless rants or attacking other creators. Shame people only see one side of me and don't see the other. People watch one video and make an assumption quick but you can't stop them from doing that.
@@PonchaYT I certainly think there's a place for that style of vid don't get me wrong, but you're clearly far more capable and this video (while a long watch) shows that. 👍
Sadly enough Nathan was in one of my friends discords and would hide away in our vc. He was half drunk apologizing for the failure of the game. Eventually when the game went f2p he just stopped visiting.
I imagine it must truly suck, to have the chance to work on THE dream project, only to realize you don’t collectively have the skill nor your higher ups the leadership...
I really appreciate your immersive effort you put into this. Still watching this and enjoying it so far, but every scene where Miguel is taking in, I just can't help but talk over saying "fuuuuuuuuuck you..."
Lol, I say the same thing whenever he's on screen. This guy was the worst possible nerd for the job. And idk why but my first red flag was when they said the developers collected the miniatures.. it looked like his were all still in unopened boxes.. but when he promised an open world in a 40k game, I instantly knew he was either delusional, an idiot or knew nothing about developing video games. ...I bet he collects Tau..
He reminds me of that douchey-bearded asshole who hyped up(lied about)Dead Rising 4 before its release. >__> I am glad Hello Games got raked over the coals for No Mans Sky, it doesn't happen enough.
I had no idea about Dark Millenium. The fact that it was being created by the very same team who made Darksiders makes it such a shame. A SHAME, I TELL YOU.
Honestly I’m surprised they got away with building so much hype with what was essentially just ideas. It’s like if I could get to e3 with the ideas I have for games while I’m lying in bed. Also have there ever been any “ideas guys” in history that got further than Miguel?
The ones that also had their hands in what they were working on. But more importantly, the ones that could bridle their imagination. Know when to dial something back. It’s easy to kick back in ur boss pattern easy chair and TELL people what to make, but with no effort on your part, YOUR idea really isn’t the fruit of your labor. And as such, it’s subject to change, typically into something more manageable. Hell fire, I’ve “dreamt” up a kick ass 40k game, I KNOW everyone would love it. But until I act on these ideas, that’s all it is. A Dream. At the same time, it’s one of those “Dang I wish I could do the work of 50 people” type games. But long story short, my advice, if you wanna bring your ideas to life… Do it. It may take time, it may not be worth it, but if you’re willing to go through hell, you can at least say you’ve done it. If you don’t have a computer, at least do the stuff you CAN do right now, I.E, design characters or dream up levels. Maybe instead you’ll find your calling to make comics or sumn. Rootin’ for ya, whatever you go for.
You know, I think something with the framework of Foxhole might be an interesting game for WH40K. Trenches, vehicles, big army sizes? I’d imagine you’d have to start with just the guardsmen and maybe the Orks, but I’m sure it’d make something cool.
The most important part is that Foxhole didn't get where it is today overnight, looking at their history, along with their newest project Anvil Empires, and how it gradually works towards its goals is the key to attaining ambition. In the case of a 40k version, I'd say start with Guardsmen vs Renegades, in a sort of microcosm of Vraks (a relatively small, but expandable, map, first / third person rather than top down, so that Thunderbolts, Dakajets and more could be added eventually. and if GW has the rights for it (they probably do, knowing them) re-use assets from Darktide for the various types of Lasguns and Autoguns etc (maybe make it so each pattern of autogun requires different ammunition, to further emphasise the logistical benefit of a Lasgun and their recharging power packs) Manufactorums and basic Adeptus Mechanicus faction threads could be necessary to add right away for the logi side, but a basic "engineering corps" with Tech priests etc could be set up as an early placeholder. But yeah, 40k Foxhole is the only way to go. You could even have a lot of the logi simplified in terms of the micromanaging to make it more "automated" but still there. Adding Orks in Later along with their scrap mechanics (maybe even eventually add in a mekshop vehicle customizer that lets you assemble scrap and gubbinz like legos) And if you really want to go a bit more hardcore (keep Space Marine 2 for the more casual play, and this for the Hardlore) Inquisitors, Assassins and Rogue Traders as solo play compatible while Marines as an elite, clan only faction (Each Chapter as a clan/guild, 250 active players per chapter max (unless the playerbase gets into the millions, then and only then would chapters max out at 1000, clan leaders have to manage it ala Chapter Master) Each of these would be major expansion/updates ala the Trench Warfare, Inferno and upcoming Naval expansion that Foxhole has.
Like, bruh outsiders probably already think we're some cult. Then these goofballs walk out on stage in dark robes in a dark room with some monastic chanting playing in the BG? not helping at all
The guy presenting the features of the game sounds like a 10 year old describing his friends "oh maaaan, I thought of this game yesterday, it's gonna be so kewl!".
@ God, yes. Interplay's Descent: Freespace was THE definitive game of my childhood... The sheer immersion of knowing that despite the epic, desperate dogfighting you engaged in to protect fleet assets you're only a cog in an interstellar machine... I'm sure that's the same appeal the Astra Militarum have in 40k. Nothing compared to the sheer overwhelming scope of the conflict told in the story. ...I used to have dreams that they'd come out with Freespace 3.
@@toledochristianmatthew9919 I won't fault that, just wanted to point out the difference between Developer and Publisher there. My little 'Akshully' of the day.
Steven Lumpkin... fuck that's a blast from the past. Still hurts if I listen back to his Dark Heresy sessions or Rollplay Swan Song and hear how optimistic he was about this.
3 года назад
I remember TotalBiscuit asking Steven out how this company will archive their goals with only candy crush like games under their belt.
@@ShahbazBokhari I dont know what you're talking about, DoW2 never got a sequel and anyone who claims otherwise is filthy Xenos lover. No, I'm not in denial.
Cheers mate. I'm still very critical of this video myself. I feel like stuff still could of been done better but editing this was a challenge and I've learnt so much.
@@PonchaYT i hope to not offend, but it is "should have" instead of "should of". I noticed you keep using "should of", "should of" does not make sense. Have a nice day and more power
10:22 at the start of that Interview a monetization alarm was going off in my brain (I mean because they have a monetization system there not youtubes). "Hope is the first step on the path of disappointment" -Jonah Orion, Librarian of the Blood Ravens ...which is why I go for the best sentence in the Imperial Guard manual: "Hope for the best but prepare for the worst".
At the time, I was still in high school, so I didn't want to go spending my money on things that I didn't have to. Thank god I didn't, because some of those backer packs really made me want to buy in.
when i played thq's Space Marine as captain Titus, i could feel an mmo in this style of gameplay has a chance to work out but was probably too much work, both for dev, and for player
I so badly wanted Nathan to outright say "Miguel was a dickhead who promised things the development team didn't have the time or funding to deliver, then pussied out the moment he realised what he had done. Now I'm here to pick up the pieces and tell you that the things he promised won't be implemented on time at best, or will be downright impossible at worst".
@@borntopwnyou Yeah, if companies actually understood PR instead of outsourcing it to a marketing department, they might try that. Not everyone can be Hello Games where they fuck up at the start but end up delivering everything they promised later.
Honestly, it could have had a waaay larger appeal if the f2p included imperial guard too, so you'd have members as the elite forces like Space Marines and f2p as guardsmen as well as orcs. Now youve got true 40k battles and more people happy since it isnt just f2p vs members theyre just supporting their faction.
Founder here. Said this before but its worth saying again. All engineering projects involving development of something new carry inherent risk with them. The promises must first be made to gather interest, in order to pay for development. This means the hype and investment must always come before the technical challenges are addressed. You cannot attempt to address the technical challenges without the money in the first place. Naturally, every engineering project has the chance to fail technically. I believe this happens in game development far more often than people realize. It is technically very challenging to design video games and developers will hit numerous walls that take far longer to cross than anticipated. Ambitious games always take far more time than estimated due to technical challenges that can only be discovered after investment has been put down. This is obviously directly at odds with publisher goals, who understand the importance of running engineering projects with a business mind. When a game's development just continues on and on, endlessly expanding, overengineering and gathering more problems than it is solving, it's time to cut the losses. Infinite crowd funding and lack of a voice of reason saying its time to stop is why star citizen exists as it does today, as barely a shadow of what was promised.
Well said mate. Some people really don’t understand how the game industry works and how complicated is it to make a working game. I feel most people who review games don’t even know what they are talking about when they say a game is bad without the context or being involved in its development.
I was there every step of the way from birth to death. I think there are several parties at fault here: . the developers who lied through their teeth repeatedly. Don't feel sorry for Nathan, he did it too. I tuned in to every single weekly twitch update on the development, and he lied every single week about what was coming shortly (and never even existed behidn closed doors), as well as being really rude to fan questions and generally being snarky. - as for information of those refunds, i still have an email conversation with them, asking clearly three times in seperate emails for a refund during this perioid and they try to evade and dodge my question and point to other things i can look at instead, with the final straw saying i can get a refund if i really want to from a particular link, that actually just lead to their home page, not to a ticket support or anything similar. Crooks, the lot of them, and don't bullshit saying there are otherwise. - The final reason i blame the devs is for the gameplay. It didn't work well. Melee combat was rock-paper-scissors except it wasn't compatible with attack speed differences between weapons. It was purely guess work. Imbalanced weapons, bad maps, poor visuals, bugs, i couldn't even invite friends to my lobby for months after release. This looked like an amateur project that should've bene F2P. Especially with the overpriced cosmetics. Some really shit pieces that were just colour changes or an added symbol cost £10+. . The youtubers that constantly protected the game and defended it, convincing unknowing people to waste their money on this scam - and it is a scam. Those players did not deserve to have their money wasted by overly loyal defenders who were still in love with the non-existent pipe dream that was this game. If this game was on more peoples radars, there'd probably be a lawsuit or trouble over the false advertisement. Not to mention the gameplay itself is absolutely dreadful for a TPS, a non-40k fan would call this shovelware, and rightly so. . The publishers for releasing early. But honestly, the game was never going to be ready or finished, so this seems inconsiquential to me. I remember the game was already dead and the fanbase had widely abandoned it months before this happened.
@@PonchaYT Also, I've seen several of your videos now. This one was the one that made me sub finally :) I like longer documentary style vids like these, and you do them well :) Eternal Crusade is a rough journey, full of let downs and disappointments. I'm definitely gonna be biased in what I say about it all, but I really find it interesting how some games like Cyberpunk gets massive backlashes and a lawsuit, where eternal crusade doesn't, but did far far worse things openly
@@Willsr14 I honestly don't understand either. How lawsuits work in the gaming industry is a mystery. I appreciate you like the video. My content is not going to be just videos like this. Dawn of war 3 and eternal crusade I've wanted to do videos on for a while. This channels content is not going to be base around one game or just a small video here and there. I've decided that this channel will be more of doing long reviews, talking about warhammer in a more mainstream way and trying to get new people in. I have many video ideas that I hope people will like, videos like this I will try to be more serious but for reviews I still want the a bit of comedy. My next big video is going to be a spotlight on the unification mod as I promised the modders I would and I think a lot of people will like it.
The moment you mentioned Evolve, i felt that so hard. For some reason i am drawn to games that unfortunately more or less died. Titanfall 2, dirty bomb, evolve, all great games that i played and am still playing and with eternal crusade i got another one in my list
Yeah I loved evolve so much. So many hours in it. Played it every night with mates. Shame the game died because of 2K but I’m not surprised with all the dlc. I thought titanfall2 was really good it just go released at a bad time.
@@darthgiorgi4990 well, now it's basically unplayable, which, as a big fan of the game, is quite depressing, but, you know, respawn can't work on TF|2 because they have to keep milking the money cow that is Apex Legends
Exactly. How can anybody think people with such limited experience can produce a quality game, let alone an MMORPG of a beloved franchise of all things. It was literally impossible from day 1 and doomed to inevitable disaster.
Happened to remember Eternal Crusade existed today (I tried so hard to suppress that trauma) and poked around on the forums to see how active they were. One of the few posts from this year was a link to your video. I appreciate how measured and details this all was. Honestly, the only thing I could want for more is actual details about what happened behind closed doors. Unfortunately, as you mentioned, it's something that wouldn't get out. And although text pretty much never carries subtle tone, I could only really "hear" Miguel's tweet in a very embittered, hurt tone. I can only imagine the betrayal he must have felt, to work so hard and so passionately, just to be tossed aside and watch his baby get killed slowly from afar.
Yeah it seems like he gets way too excited about stuff and doesnt think things through before he says or does them as much as he should. Not making excuses for him tho. He's a grown ass man that should be able to do that lol
Same. The 'h' at the end negates the pronunciation of the 'g'. I think some deliberately pronounce the 'g' as a joke, but has become common-place for so long that many actually think its correct.
Ah eternal crusade, one of my poorer financial decisions. I was one of those fools that signed up for the Warrior founder pack, then daisy chained my way up through the other packs for the bonus credits/items in the rouge trader store until landing on the Dawn of the Imperium (later known as Heresy) founder pack, and in addition to that got the The Ork Pioneer pack, the Boss points bundle and then signed up for the monthly points bundle dusted my hands and said "Now i wait until release". 16 months later i receive an email that my points subscription is now canceled because some tomfoolery with steam going on so i figure that the game must be about to come out so i installed it, booted it up and was largely disappointed, i tried for about 2 hours (most of which was attempting to play dress up with all my shiny bits) but just couldn't get into the game itself with it feeling like a Call of Duty/Battlefield with my expectations of the game being a team based PUBGesque game before PUBG was even a thing, so i put the game back down in the hopes that it would eventually move more towards what i thought the game would be, but alas that is a resounding "No." And good luck getting a refund now that it's on steam as the game is listed as being a "gift" so in all likely hood even if i asked for a refund it would just go away into the ether leaving me still with the hole in my wallet, still have that feeling of shame, and having no digital monument to my sins.
That's the most tragic video game development story ever. I was so hyped by Dark Millenium until its cancellation, that then I put all my hopes into Eternal Crusade and bought a Founder's Pack that I kept for months, eagerly awaiting release ; only to be so disappointed when Bandai Namco force released it. I've never spent more than 20 hours on it. What a shame.
Ah, so they did a No Man's Sky. Classic mistake of over promising and under delivering. The difference being that NMS actually did something about it in the end. Likely all caused by Miguel and his ambition. He kept making shit up and promising things that the team itself likely wanted him to shut up about. That is no doubt why he was removed. Miguel set expectations way way way too high. Bandai was probably one of the worst publishers to get too, they're fucking awful.
I had similar thoughts. Both devs allowed their ambitions to get the better of them and both promised too much. And ultimately the teams couldn’t deliver on the promises made. Of course, Hello Games managed to get most, if not all, of those promises filled eventually. In this case, everything just went to shit and that was that.
@Dizzy Gear It's a common issue with people who get too successful to the point where others around them are no longer able to give criticism or reign back their biggest impulses. George Lucas is a really good example for a filmmaker.
Well, that was a trip down memory lane... I remember being so active on the forums, so hyped. I did some graphical redesigns for the premium weapons to look more realistic and/or cool. I spent hours talking with other people from all around the world, brainstorming what would make the game the best it could be. I even got the 120$ Founder's Captain Pack for the music track I made in the bE's creative competition on the forums. Unfortunately, I had a hamster-powered PC, when the game went live (perks of living in Eastern Europe, I guess...). So, couldn't play it. But boy, oh boy... What I saw on YT disappointed me so much, I immediately forced myself to lose interest in the Eternal Crusade, just as to avoid unnecessary stress... So much wasted potential.
me too, spend a load of money on a game my PC would barely be able to run. In the end it crashed hard before I ever installed it, and all the negative hype put me off ever bothering, such a shame.
Will you do such a documentary on evolve??? I bought the 100 euros pre-order, got the golden dev skins, but can't play the game I loved... And I would like to know why... Why did it become stage 2? Why was the campaign removed? Why has it become a free to play? Why was the big rock monster not included within my collector's edition? There was an esport scene?! Where, when, how, by whom???? Please
oh my friend that's a very temping video. Me and grizzlemarine, a big youtuber for evolve who knew the devs were thinking about doing that at some point.
To shed a bit of positivity on the matter, as someone who was never invested in the pre-alpha, alpha or beta, and only discovered it by chance in the Steam F2P section, this game brought some of the most fun I've had playing an online game. The community at the time was fun and mostly salt-free, the gameplay, although unbalanced, was really really fun. I never heard about those "thousand player matches" , but I've got lots of fond memories of the 32vs32 sieges that made it feel like an actual 40k battlefield, charging chainsaw in hand as a Khorne zerker was incredibly fun. Bigger maps or teams were unnecessary to make the game a fun experience, specially for those of us who loved THQ's Space Marine and thirsted for more after the studio's demise. As I've learned in this video, there were a lot of broken promises, but for those of us who were never aware of those promises and only wanted a fun 40k game, this game was incredible.
Match Making killed it for me. I had lots of fun but then the Map stopped and 50% of the time you had to wait for the next round to finish... 20-30min Having Servers or at least not kicking everyone out of the Lobby would have been welcome ^^
Likewise I had great fun with the game, although I disagree with the salt-free community. Space Marine players complained every time they didn't roflstomp the enemy, as someone who played both Eldar and Space Marines, I found myself running with the astartes less and less because I was bored of bad players expecting a game to be handed to them because they were the poster boys. The Ork Community though was always epic, outgunned, outnumbered, but always had a blast
@@mildlyderanged last night were many 20 vs 20 LSM ORKZ matches and it was a BLAST! and at the end two choice LSM started calling the orkz n-words and telling them to uninstall. Uh, we need people to shoot at! Don't tell them to leave!
"Let's talk about the fall of Warhammer 40,000: Eternal Crusade..." The fall of what now? How have I never heard of this? "...a massively multiplayer online role-playing game." Ah. There it is.
Also as an Aside, I remember Steve Lumpkin, he did some RP with Total biscuit, His credentials... where not amazing, he worked on some tycoon games, but he was defo- passionate about 40k and I assume he was good at his job.
having only known of eternal crusade after it released, and was entirely free to play, and played it (although not much, because there were no active ork lobbies, just space marine v chaos, and i like the orks best), the team describing this mmo game makes me very confused.
Not gonna lie, I'm STILL sad about eternal crusade years after I stopped playing it. It was legitimately my favorite game before I just got fed up with all of it's issues. The gameplay itself was REALLY fun.
Warhammer has always had a heartbreaking history when it comes to gaming because it feels like for every good game there's two or three games that end in disaster 😞
Holy moly, what a ride. I remember the vlog of, what I think, was a GW employee from the UK and visiting the game studio. He had some pretty funny stuff to share. I also remember buying the Founder's package, then promptly forgot about it completely, my interests going after different games.
I have not forgot about unification, its been on my mind. I think next video is 100% going to be a darktide comparison development and promises to vermintide one that I've been planning for a while. After that I will most likely to the unification mod.
The worst part about this is that now there is a fan project making the game better from the ground up it seems, for free, and it's already added in at least four of the features the main game promised but didn't' deliver on. The Crusade Reborn has Terminators and Bikes already and it's only been going for about a year.
A great example of asymmetrical factions in an MMOFPS of all things to make a closer analogy to Eternal Crusade was the original Planetside. Now the factions use a LOT of the same faction neutral gear such as most of the vehicles and a number of guns. But the empire specific gear was different enough it GREATLY affected the way they played out. Unlike the sequel Planetside2, the original was NOT afraid to have drastic differences in the faction specific gear instead of just mostly being slightly different stat arrays. This led to situations like the Terran Republic having a combination of empire specific gear that REALLY encouraged a Zerging behavior leading to the term Terran Zergs. There was even one outfit on the server I was on that was notorious for essentially being an organized zerg rush. Instead of coming into a base raid with a few gunship troop transports for a coordinated drop strike, they flew in as a massive swarm of one man fighters and ejected over the base with minimal coordination on the location and timing of the drop. They then overwhelm and confuse the enemy with their equipment load out of a Gatling gun and vehicle Homing rocket the two empire specific heavy weapons for that faction. The Gatling allowed them to be somewhat effective at medium range outdoors compared to the other two empire equivalents. And the sheer number of them everywhere would overwhelm defenses trying to hold the outside. But if you held choke points inside instead you had an easier time handling these masses of identical load out enemies who weren't the most coordinated. Meanwhile you get the New Conglomerate who really focused on heavy armor and weaponry. They hit HARD from a VERY far range with their empire specific tanks and their Assault Rifles also had high damage per shot and very good range. But their special heavy infantry weapon and the weapon on their Power Armor suits were shotguns making them a very strong powerhouse in close quarters. Their infantry anti vehicle special was a remote guided rocket so between that and the tank they liked to lay siege on a base from behind a ton of cover making it hard to strike back effectively. But they were slow and able to be outmaneuvered. Then the Vanu Sovereignty had no one specific easy to grasp specialty like the speed and firerate of TR or the armor and heavy damage of NC. They had , 'technology' with weapons that fired energy shots with no bullet drop. Their weapons only had two types of ammo they needed to fuel them making inventory management much easier and letting the assault rifle get effectively more ammo then other factions and could use both the rifle and the empire specific special heavy weapon without worrying about not having enough ammo for either one. And bonus points, their energy came in one flavor and other empires had to not only swap out the mag to switch to AP rounds but that was more inventory management for that ammo type to carry. VS only had to push a button to change to AP mode with the same energy cells. AP rounds did not do much to vehicles and Power Suits, but it did do damage and that meant an entire enemy force of taking plink damage from them when going at them. So it meant the few people who did have a anti vehicle weapon equiped could get away with maybe one less round to get a kill if all his teammates focused fire. This faction also had hover vehicles letting them get across rivers and difficult terrain with absolute ease, and their Power Suits had jump jets letting them get up on roofs to more easily insert from areas the defence may not expect a force of Power Armors to come in from. Essentially VS was a rather weak faction per soldier but their specialties made them VERY effective from a tactical standpoint. This meant they regularly had a lot less active players online at a time then other empires due to not being well suited to a solo player like the TR, but their more tactical nature meant their Outfits worked together and coordinated much more effectively. This allowed them to not be overwhelmed by the numbers of the other two empires and hold their own and things stayed balanced despite all this massive gameplay differences. So yeah, sorry for the massive text wall, but sometimes being more different is what allows balance as opposed to trying to carefully manage things to not be 'unfair'. So an assymetrical shooter at large scale is possible.
@@heartwork7977 I doubt about the latter, since after the release of DoW III and their terrible way of support towards it says enough for me that they are not doing well. Hell, they cancelled DLC's and every other major contents not even a year after release! And after that we never heard anything from them.
Fucking rip, 40k planet side 2 is still pretty much a "free money" idea that no one is going for ... planet side 2 is what? 8 years old? how much could the tec cost at this point
You need the software that Daybreak wont give out, you need the servers, the graphics etc. Planetside is shit but its shit because people have expectations.
You really put a lot of work into this video. The presentation, duration, information, and even the video effects are really well done. I hope your channel grows! Best of luck!
The sad reality is. I set myself a goal for this year. Subs being 10k. I’f I don’t reach it I promised someone that I would quit. Basically it’s up to the community.
@@PonchaYT I run a RU-vid channel with 20k subs (political, so you an imagine the extra unpopularity that causes with many). I absolutely love your format with time stamps, sources linked and presented, etc. You're in the best position for RU-vid algorithm I think. All that remains I believe is to make your own Discord server, spread it on message boards and Reddit, take up fans requests (which is what Discord is for), for increased chances of word to mouth. Perhaps a collab video with another RU-vidr (best chances for both sides to gain recognition). Usually RU-vidrs are open to the idea when presented to them in an e-mail. I genuinely hope you reach your goal because I really enjoyed your level of professionalism. Would be sad to lose another informative channel :)
@ I don’t know why but I just feel like my content is terrible 😂 and I keep wanting to strive to make something better. I can’t upload a half ass video it just does not feel right to me.
