This is the greatest debate of all time. Editing in part done by: dragonkingakumathefool --------------------------------- Links, Portfolio, Contact, and Hiring: stevieblunder.com/ #yugioh #rarran #farfa
About Rarran not understanding Farfa's last point, Rarran in a followup video commented saying that he understood it after calming down and realizing he was focusing on the wrong words in a comment. It's chill.
fr fr, its hard to watch how they constantly crap on each other despite the fact that they are all basically agreeing on everything... i dont know how is that even possible
@@charlesfort6602 I mean that's basically React culture overall. Reacting really has nothing to do with actually taking tie to understand and put together thoughts, it's just "I want to intimidating response to something right now so I can get a video out of it."
It actually didn't look like anyone misunderstood anyone at all. Farfa agreed for the most part w Rarran about how complicated and hard for new players ygo is. Rarran then also correctly pointed out how apeshit some of farfa's bad takes are, and then stevie also agreed on how bad farfa's takes were and agreed w the both of them on how hard the game is. No misunderstandings here. Except yours I guess.
@@hugomendoza5665no there is misunderstanding all over this video, you're cherry picking certain spots and saying "That's what happened" neither Stevie nor Rarran are actually trying to understand what Farfa is saying they're just trying to say "No farfa you're wrong" when he is legitimately bringing up good points, his "bad takes" were, you will not be good at the game after just a few hours unlike simple games like hearthstone and mtg, yugioh is complicated when you are trying to be competitive, and go touch grass and learn by playing the actual card game. Idk if you know this but all of those takes are valid, you aren't going to be ultra competitive just off you playing a few hours of it and yugioh is simply easier to understand with the actual card game. Stevie had some horrendous takes in this video saying "yugioh as a whole is bad because x" which is literally what Rarran was saying too, but it isn't it's just Master Duel, that's why yugioh people got defensive, because Rarran started shitting on yugioh as a whole instead of Master Duel and Stevie is literally making it worse by just agreeing and not bothering to actually understand what Farfa is saying at all. You seem to be biased from the get go just judging by your "matter of fact" tone you took with your comment and still doing what Stevie and Rarran are doing, ignoring what is being said and simply saying "No you're wrong Farfa". What Rarran did/was trying to do is the basic equivalent of a newborn baby fighting Mike Tyson, you're literally setting yourself up for failure. But idk man you decide what you want, it doesn't seem like I can convince you otherwise, so best of luck to you and I hope you do great in whatever endeavors you might have.
YGO is just playing on its ancient Egyptian roots by making the knowledge of the game extremely secret and esoteric. Only scholars who have dedicated their lives to studying it can understand it.
My personal example was back during Synchros, I loved playing Dark World and Fabled, but I would read cards that Discard at Cost, put them in, and not understand "Wait I sent my Goldd away, why isn't it coming back." I read the card fine, but nothing was there to say "Cost doesn't count" or something.
or even how chaining works, like difference of chain 1 eldritch trap that summon eldritch and chain 2 poping 1 with trap , and chain 1 popping and chain 2 eldritch summon trap
I don't mean this comment to be belittling, Farfa's final comment about the illusion of choice/fair play is that because Hearthstone and Magic ramp, you believe you're doing better than you actually are if you're no skill vs some/high skill. In Yu-Gi-Oh! You get blown out turn 1 and don't play, in MTG/HS you build your mana and play a few cards to get blown out by a constructed strategy, but it happened in later turns. I'll say that it still can be more fun than not playing at all, but I realized during about Edison format that unless I drew specifically well, I was losing most games because of not only the skill level, but the deck building. It's why when we look at historical formats now we see that deck building philosophies of the past aren't particularly good.
With the game taking multiple turns, even if you are getting stomped, has the benefit of a learning process happening. You do ramp mana, yes, but you also have time to comprehend what your opponent is doing; where your deck is lacking. Next time the opponent needs more turns to beat you, because you learn to counter certain strategies. Or you build a deck specifically designed to counter the opponent's deck. I remember when I started playing MtG:Arena, it was the War of the Spark meta, right before Throne of Eldraine. The low elo games were full of red Burn abusers. My preferred playstyle is midrange and control, which just get rolled by Burn. So I started playing white Lifelink deck and black zombie deck until I climbed far enough for people to not play the burn deck anymore, where my preferred decks were actually useful.
That's how I interpreted it. I think they got too focused on his choice of words rather than letting him cook and see what he's actually trying to say. That comment sounded like he was actually praising his for actually letting players interact with the game even if they're bound to lose but they all saw it as him trying to criticize hs for being a simpler game. The arguments with farfa fans making rarran all heated probably didn't help though.
@amuro9624 In Rarran's video reacting to Farfa, he pinned a comment saying that he listened again in editing and now understood what Farfa meant by "the illusion". But at the time he had just gotten done reacting to MBT's vid, so he was already tilted by his own chat, so he was having trouble telling whether Farfa was making points with or against him
The farfa take is that even if you are going to get booty clapped in hearthstone on ladder you at least still get to learn something in the game because the pace is slower and can pick up on things like value trading or what some of YOUR cards can do and it would transition game to game. You know what Rarran probably learned from that RikkaSun game? Absolutely nothing besides well I should've won the coin flip. There are no small glimpses of "winning" where you are somehow ahead on board on turn 4 or whatever. It's just a 1 sided bloodbath where if you go second against a combo deck every card in your hand gets negated or auto removed from board and you die from 8k the second their turn rolls around.
@@arkanamaster4961he doesn't know the combos. He wouldn't know either, unless he played long after he had already lost just to try and figure out what he should be doing.
I agree. I'm technically new to ygo and last time I played master duel I was trying to learn an exosisters deck but every game I would either summon mikaelis or whatever she's called And the enemy immediately concede or I would lose because my hand bricked, my combo got interrupted or my opponent just kills me in one turn. I played like 10 games and I still didn't feel like I had a good game where I got to play my deck. I still didn't feel like I understood how to play it. No progress in 10+ games and I'm still in this state of complete confusion where I have to reread every card before to play them because the effects aren't intuitive and even then I'm not sure I understand the effects correctly. The one game that didn't end in 1 turn, I combo into a card then realized it didn't do what I thought it did and it lost me the game. It was so frustrating that I immediately closed the game and decided to never play again. Yu-Gi-Oh is a great game that doesn't want to be played.
@arkanamaster4961 reading gazelle doesn't do anything. Oh boy, I can send a salad monster. Oops I sent Emerald Eagle and now my turn is over. Reading individual cards doesn't mean anything because you aren't playing cards, you are playing entire decks with combo lines and you need to know what EVERY CARD does and how they interact with each other.
I don't understand why whatever Farfa says is taken as defending/thinking YGO is better. most of the things seem like 'haha so true' - makes a joke by pointing the problem out in an exaggerated way - He worded the 'illusion' thing kinda bad and Rareware completely misinterpreted what he meant because of that. but other than that part he seemed to agree with 'Ra, the winged dragon, Ran' on most things. like the word count thing comes up early and is the most obvious example. Or seemingly taking the going into casual mode commentary as an attack on him personally, instead of like an 'oh no' cringe knowing what's coming, knowing 'casual' isn't actually casual. 'the illusion of choice' thing was worded weird, and the exact 'actual pro vs complete noob' was taken literally when its an exaggeration. Like there are people that know how to play and know the rules and know what the meta is, but go 2-2 at best in locals, and only go to locals. this 'noob vs pro' thing still applies when they are playing a tier 2 or rogue deck vs someone who plays the best deck and goes to and does just okay regionals. You'll still have the 'choice' of what cards to play (assuming you go first) but defeat is inevitable. In other games you get to play cards for more turns/make more choices, but losing is still inevitable most of the time.
Yeah thats what i was wondering. I legit watched both MBT and Farfa’s videos and while MBT’s is clearly more in agreement with Rarran, I don’t recall anything that implies that Farfa thinks ygo is a superior game, just like how Rarran’s video didn’t say that Hearthstone is a superior game.
You can blame Rarran's chat for that. During his stream where he played the game and the follow up stream where he reacted to MBT's and Farfa's response videos, his chat was being way too toxic and combative. Becoming repeatedly frustrated by not only the game itself but also the chat led him to be extra annoyed and misunderstood farfa's point. Thats why in the comments of the reaction video, Rarran mentioned that after calming down he finally understood Farfa's point and admitted that he wrongly made it a bigger deal than it actually was
I agree. I felt that when he was saying when it was more complex he was saying it as a bad thing. He keeps on saying how the barrier of entry is so high and to me it seemed that he was just trying to reinforce the idea.
@@alsaiduq4363 neither of these are how you spell Weiss Schwarz, nah but fr, TCG players in general, like MMO players, need to diversify, esp in a casual setting for most people imo
especially since rarran literally *experienced* what he's talking about. he lost because his opponent literally stopped him from doing anything. and i haven't played magic/hearthstone but i assume, even if the other player is better or has a stronger deck, you get to actually play cards across multiple turns as opposed to immediately getting shut down in yugioh
@@WeavileGuy I think he jumped the gun and was interpreting everything Farfa says as defending YGO, so when he said 'other games give the illusion (that you're playing/can possibly win)' his mental alarms were going off for some reason.
I think everyone understands what farfa is talking about, they just disagree with the framing "illusion of choice." Rarran wpuld say that the "illusion" that farfa is talking about is called playing the game, so even if it's a game you were going to lose you still got to play the game. The way farfa described it makes it seem like a negative aspect of hearthstone/magic.
@@DLH112 rarran was definitely sparking off on knee-jerk reactions halfway through that video, at 1 point he just kept pausing farfa's vidoe every couple seconds to sprout off
I don’t get how Farfa’s point is hard to understand. Maybe his wording with the whole “illusion of freedom” shit is what is stumbling people but all he is saying is that in other cards games you have a chance to play your cards and while ultimately the experienced player would probably win in nearly every reality, the new player at least gets to feel like he has a chance, when in reality he most likely/ most definitely doesn’t.
I feel like that's just irrelevant. In other card games, even if I play some cards and get to the same conclusion of "Well I actually didn't end up having a chance" at least I did something to get there, AND it went at a pace taht's better to understand. It's like playing two fighting games, one where you keep getting all your attacks blocked and do no damage, and one where your opponent started a combo that didn't stop. In both cases, yes you did nothing to your opponent, but in the first one you did stuff and could see their responses "Oh, maybe my choices were too obvious, maybe I should try different moves or different order." Whereas in the second, "Oh, well I didn't do anything, so what can I do better. There's nothing that helped me know."
@@ShyRanger It's an excuse ygo players make for not having a resource system. There's *no* guarantees a pro is going to beat a new player in Magic. Turn count is about *interaction* , which ygo severely lacks. Also other card games have bigger random outcomes unlike ygo where decks play themselves with hyper-consistency baked into cards (search for exactly what you want for free). Tutors in Magic are rare and have the design elements to "brick" finding anything. Not in Ygo. You get what you want all the time. Ygo players are so used to being able to do whatever they want Immediately, they don't understand concept of pacing of gradual improvising as turns pass (because there are barely any turns in Ygo). The battle phase in Ygo is absolutely *binary* compared to Magic. The only things that matter are attack power, quick effect, negation and personal protection. A high attack monster just blocks and attacks at the same time with 0 downside. I would really like to see Farfa sit down and play Magic *live* and repeat that nonsense. Confirm that comment.
@@reshiwashere Are you serious? They just explained how bad Farfa's comment is. Farfa's pretty much said the outcome would be the same with or without a resource system and that is *false* in context. There's *no* guaranteed Victory because *multiple* turns and RNG will lead to different outcomes. Card design in Magic isn't designed around consistency like ygo. Creatures *don't* attack the turn they're summoned (unless they have Haste) and cards don't have a bunch of non-interactive elements (can't be targeted, destroyed) and most cards *don't* have floating effects. The battle phase also plays a faaaar bigger role, non-existent in Ygo. Ygo only has combo/aggro/control as one deck. There's no *viable* aggro or control. What are aggro and control supposed to do about turn-1 snowballing combo? Randomly hope to have board breakers and handtraps and *hope* they don't get negated? Ygo's "negates" stay on the field, attack/block at the same time and can use their effects once per turn for *free* . *Free* severely diminishes strategy. The only that matters is *when* you do something and not *if* you can. These types of things aren't a thing in Magic whether you lose or not, interaction is always there. People rather lose with even a tiny bit of interaction involved than with just braindead solitaire.
Wait, so their argument for not using keywords in Yugioh is that remembering a bunch of keywords would be too unappealing, and their solution to this problem was to make new players have to remember every single individual card? Sounds exactly like konami.
Sure make a keyword for archetype like vaylants and cardian. Yugioh has reached the point of archetype mechanic overides game mechanic, now imagine Konami release an archetype that both defying summon mechanic and keyword mechanics.
@@r3zaful yeah that just sound like Tuesday in yugioh i mean what keyword you use for crystal beast or the upcoming centurion. I can imagine deck in the future will do dumb stuff like i don't know summon an extra deck monster in facedown attack position. keywording can help but at the end of the day we probably fused the keyword or have around 30 or more keyword.
No one ask you to remember every single cards. you need to UNDERSTAND what the card does, the moment you read it. Understanding needs hours of gameplay, like farfa and stevie said. Even at the highest level of ygo tournament players will read cards that opponent has, because they may not remembering if ash needs to be discarded or send to gy, for example
"Imagine you go and see a movie and you have to read?" Uh... I hope Rarran isn't one of those "no subtitles" people LOL I think he just picked a bad analogy.
To be fair, Rarran didn't say that you were the one reading but the people in the movie were. Like if in a yugioh movie the characters read the card text out loud everytime a card is played in every duel.
Farfa made his argument badly, but it's wild seeing it stunlock everyone when it's not really that objectionable? I used to play Shadowverse, which is similar to hearthstone, and when I first started playing, I lost most of my games because I didn't understand the strategy, I didn't understand favorable trades vs unfavorable ones, I didn't have great knowledge of the classes and what they could do, but I still felt like I had a chance in every game. I played some friendlies against my partner, who beat my ass because she'd been playing the game for years, but after almost every loss, my takeaway was "Oh, that was close, I should have held that card longer," or "If I'd drawn a little better, maybe I could have won," or "Oh, that card was really strong, but next time I'll be prepared for it." The reality was that I was probably never beating my partner in those early games because our knowledge and deck construction was so far apart, but even though nobody likes losing, I never felt demoralized by losing, and always felt like I could see myself getting to her level. Farfa's "illusion of choice/freedom" wording doesn't really make sense and makes the other games seem unflattering because they're lying to you or something, which is dumb, but I think the point he's making is that even if a match between me (a brand new player) and my partner (someone who regularly made top rank in events in Shadowverse) basically only had one outcome (her winning), I still got to play and have fun, and I could see the path to getting as good as her. I could see what I needed to do (in abstract, at least) to get good, and it was mostly simple things like better understanding the classes and their playstyles, better management of mana, better usage of Evolve points. Shadowverse is certainly not the most complicated game ever, but getting better was about understanding resource management and interactions, and maybe building decks better according to curve. In contrast, if I were to teach my partner to play yugioh, she would not have the same experience. We wouldn't have some fun games that I would go on to win. I would just crush her even with bad decks like VW or Ninjas, and she'd never get to play a card or have fun, and she'd quit with no idea of what steps she needed to take to improve. A loss in Shadowverse teaches you something, even as a new player, while losing in yugioh just feels like you didn't get to have any fun or play the game at all. I guess what he means by "illusion" is "you feel like you have a chance in other games, even when there's no chance because of a skill gap, and having that chance makes you want to keep playing. In yugioh, you immediately realize how unskilled and lacking in knowledge you are compared to other players, and how you cannot win at your current skill level, and thus will not want to keep playing."
I think “illusion of choice” is just bad wording from Farfa, and what he’s really trying to say is “illusion of having a chance at winning”. In HS, a new player can queue into a game they have no chance of winning based on the decks/player skill, but they will still be able to participate in the game for a few turns and FEEL like they have a chance before getting destroyed. In Yugioh you often get completely destroyed before ever playing a single card, and that feels absolutely terrible for a new player.
For some people it's better like this. I for example hated HS because of the "lying" that the card game offer to you. After the game I had see that I cannot had a chance anyway, and it's made me go mad about the game. In Yugioh when a game is decided, I can see that I lost, and it makes me feel that the game is not "lying" to me
@@DavidBeckham2001 Oh for sure, I think most veteran players like this better, because they know right from turn 1 whether they have a chance, instead of having to play it out and feeling like they wasted their time playing a game they were never going to win. BUT I think this is a big deterrent for new players, because it just feels unfair and unfun to lose super hard on turn 1, and a new player will get very little from that experience.
@@DryFieri I agree on your point, it's just my experience with the game. I think that Yugioh does not have to change what it is, because it's for people how like to do war crimes with a card board and it's what makes Yugioh good for people like me how does not like the false hope of winning, but the sheer juice of "YOU HAD LOSE SO HARD BRO" because when you have even a little Opening to break a board for example, IT'S SO F#CKING GOOD
I' guessing both. Honestly feels like he IS angry, but a pro streamer like him honeslty wouldn't care about most comments, so something like that "All YGO players" comment is either faked or heat of the moment.
I think he was genuinly more angry than he showed on stream. Imagine being a streamer who is a top player in another card game. You declare to play 10 hours of that new game and you are unable to convert any knowledge you have to the new game, being humiliated by getting stomped in the lowest of low ranks and worst of all, having to ask chat what to play, because he doesn't understand why his opponent has 5 negates on board. The fact that he didn't even try to power through these 10 hours and that he was changing decks, hoping the next one will work for him instead of just patiently learning the first one is enough to see how frustrated he was.
@@theguywholikesturtlez i won't say he's stupid because he doesn't understand, but it is very funny that he said he would play 10 hours and barely even made 5, i feel if he had played the extra 5 and actually tried to learn he could have at least learned salad and shown more about why the game is "ridiculous". Quitting at 5 and acting like looking stuff up on the internet isn't very common for any modern game is kinda "ridiculous".
@@theguywholikesturtlez If he was most angry at chat, then well... cry more lol I mean, I' not saying they were right or calling hi stupid, but Twitch chat is, like, ALWAYS bad, so whatevs. But I do say this as someone who's not a streamer, so while half of me is like "oh boo hoo" I'm sure I'd feel similar if I tried.
I collected Yu-Gi-Oh! Back in the early 2000s and never played any sense of a competitive game. I picked it back up again in the 2020s when MD was announced. I didn’t have any friends who played it so I was on my own. I googled top decks and decided to go with HEROs because it looked pretty straight forward. I learned that deck inside and out on the basics. I learned about other decks by dueling them and as I learned and MD released I crafted the decks I constantly lost to and learned new decks as I continued to play. There are so many radically different strategies that you can’t make a tutorial for each and you just have pick a deck, learn it through things like yt replays, play and lose to better decks, learn by loosing, and then learn how to play those better decks. As you do that you will learn new intricacies of the game and get better. It’s not a quick process but it’s fun when you get there.
i think this is something a lot of people keep getting confused about, like learning literally every different match up possible or just simply every deck/archetye or interactions between commonly-uncommon mechanics isnt soemthing that anyone is gonna ever be expect to know and even knowing most will take probably months from either looking them up from various media or encountering them yourself however learning that 2 cards of the same lvls = xyz summon, what a tuner on the field means or leads to, some some common extra deck links like the knightmares, charmers and common staples and engines are things that wont take more then a couple encounters to get which can vary from a few games to an unspecific amount of time in days or weeks because of how broad it all is but is still far less time then it takes to learn every single deck/archetype and interactions possible nor are either of these 2 really comparable to the amount of time it takes to get the fundamentals basics of the game's mecahnics down to form too as this would vary from individuals to indivudals but some people just simply want to lump all this up into months
I think the "illusion of choice" argument still holds some weight (although to be clear yugioh 100% has a problem with going 1st being way too strong). Consider a match in Mean Streets of Gadgetzan meta where I'm playing some sort of reno/control deck and have opened basically very little anti aggro/board presence up until turn 4 meanwhile the pirate warrior I'm facing against opened crazy and has done like 10 damage to face by like turn 3 and has follow up going into turns 5-6 to clear anything I could use to try to slow down the game. Even if I choose THE optimal play every single time until I lose 30 life, the game will pretty much go to the Pirate Warrior. This game state id say is a good parallel into a YGO game state where I have drawn zero hand traps/going 2nd cards into an unfair combo deck in a bad/FTK centered meta. In both cases there was pretty much nothing I could have done there given the opening hands, but the multiple turns it took for Pirate Warrior to execute their win condition can make it seem like there was somehow a line out of it since you had more decisions to make even though the game still would have been over for me no matter what play I committed to since even the optimal play will still lose the game. What I'm trying to say here is that I think EVERY SINGLE card game will have games where you will basically lose no matter what given certain hands and that saying that YGO is the only game where you lose without doing anything meaningful is disingenuous. I DONT THINK RARRAN ever said this or implied it but the discourse that has resulted from his honestly very good video has been spreading this unhelpful take and I think we all need to be careful in how we assess YGO. I think the "illusion of choice" is an ok way to understand one of the natural downsides of YGO being a very turn 1/2/ and sometimes 3+ game since newer players just want to do stuff even if it doesn't ultimately stop them from losing and Yugioh doesn't really give you that especially since to many new players they dont think using hand traps going second is "actually playing" since they are mainly focused on securing their own proactive engine (which is a fair take tbh but I think anyone integrated into YGO wouldn't ever say that handtrapping going 2nd isnt meaningful playing). Regardless, Konami basically needs to stop being out of touch and integrate prospective players in a way that actually helps them from playing honestly a really good card game despite its inherent flaws. They should also make the actual game feel more fun to play by getting rid of toxic strategies but we can get there AFTER we fix the lack of on-boarding problem.
Yeah thats kinda the nature of card games though a lot of it comes down to luck across many factors like your draws, mulligan and deck match ups you could debate on how much luck is involved in the outcome of a game on a game by game basis but thats a whole other topic and one thats basically impossible to quantify. The problem comes from the fact that when a game is decided so early on it both leaves the player feeling like they didnt get a chance to play and they dont get to learn what their deck is trying to do to win the game or even how to get to even get there. When the outcome of a game is massively slowed down by a mana system for example even if you lost the game you still got to see what your cards do and how your deck functions, you also get to learn from your mistakes during the match and the strengths and weaknesses of both yours and your opponents decks. I should state that I don't think yugioh needs a mana system but if the power level of the game is so high that you can often tell if you lost the game within the first 10 seconds of the match, why would new player want to continue playing if they felt like they never even had a shot at winning or at the very least learn what their deck is supposed to do.
what gets me about this argument is that it is still meaningful to lose in a game that was "inevitable". First because you don't know that its inevitable (even the most one-sided matchups in games never go 100% in favour of one deck), this is basically the illusion of choice point but more importantly because you get the opportunity to play optimally even when you are losing, its still valid practice. The more salient point that Rarran was kinda flirting with is that Hearthstone and Magic rarely have these "inevitable games" whereas it feels like yugioh has them far far more. This is why the illusion of choice argument is annoying people, because it tries to say that hearthstone and magic have the same quantity of this problem but its just less noticeable whereas in reality i think its less noticeable in hearthstone and magic, simply because these situations happen way less in hearthstone and magic.
As a Magic player primarily, I can confidently say that if I did not have so much spare time at work, I would have instantly dropped Master Duel. I needed so much time to learn what cards do that it was insane. I'm lucky. I had time an energy to spend on this game. But to the average new player, they're going to go to one locals and instantly quit. It's so frustrating when you're starting.
Until today I still have zero idea of how evil eye play, I knew they are playing with equips but knowing when to stop them before they get the equips is pain man.
@@KyunaCookies That's cap. Been playing for over 20 years and I still don't understand everything. I mean most people still don't understand how the damage step works or when/if.
Imagine konami retroactively adding keywords in the style of other card games. How many keywords there'd be that only apply to like.... 8 cards lol, or having to separate common effects into 3-4 keywords each because of the small variations in those effects that completely change how the deck is played. Not arguing with you or saying the current tcg method is great or anything. Just going more in depth into why MTG-like keywords (beyond things like excavate or piercing) is not a viable option and hasn't been since, like, early GX era.
@@bl00by_ I'm just imagining them keywording the massive block of text for qliphorts, which only apply to qliphorts, only for someone to open google & read that same block of text anyways lol
then again some new players like randall would ask "what is piercing means?" "what is destroy and negate?", in other words yugioh just f*cked up for new players anyways.
Rarran's stream and response reminds me of, uh.... I forget the guy's name, but there was a guy who played WOW who played FF14 for the first time. He was getting backlash from FF14 players for going through everything so fast as if to shit on everything, that so many people responded and reacted basically going "Uh no, it's because he's a streamer, and streamers have to do things so fast and in a certain way or else they lose attention of their viewers."
5:15 "so like a new player they don't know what like your dragonmaid end board should be" yes that is true but at the same time i dont think in any tcg where activating 3 cards and the board state is practically unchanged is anything to celebrate about especially when it was this scenario that was used as the on-screen example of yugioh being ridiculous when nothing was accomplished from that
Very true, you probably will fuck up EVERY combination of cards in any card period, you’re not supposed to see what the deck does first glance and first try
9:16 Tbf the game was never supposed to be an entrance point for new players. In the reveal trailer they said that MD is for people who already play the game. New players should play stuff like Duel links instead. It's funny how people always criticise that, even tho konami themselves literally said that it's not supposed to be an entrance point.
@@kit5849 well sure but i think konami always saw duel links and speed duel (or in japan's case rush duel) as the beginner friendly formats to get you into yugioh while MD was pretty much seen as the ultimate competitive ocg/tcg experience.
One of the major problems as well with the whole "just read the cards" is that for the most part it's just word spaghetti that you need to fully comprehend the first time you read them. The worst offense though has to be that you not only need to understand how your deck works to an absolutely insane degree, but you must have that same level of knowledge regarding every single deck in your current format and all of those decks' variations in order to know what are the most important effects to negate or cards to destroy with your own interruptions. But I guess you can always circumvent that with DRNM into Feather Duster into Raigeki and pass on Inspector Border and Anti-Spell Fragrance turn 2
God, I fucking remember starting playing MD when it launched, hadn't played ygo since before Synchro's was a thing and the format was literally Drytron with Herald, Virtual World into VFD and Eldlich lmao
Rarran. Has a new stream where he settled the debate with farfa. The tldr of that stream is basically both sides repeating valid criticisms to each other for 1 hour. They are technically aggressively agreeing with each other for 1 hour and it somehow sounds like an argument.
Farfa is trying to say that if a new player plays against an older player, the older player is going to win just cause they have the experience and knowledge to win. The new player however will at least be able to play cards and feel like they're doing something unlike in yugioh
Also even if you lose, you at least got to participate so that you can learn to play the game. Watching my opponent play solitaire for ten minutes and then losing turn 1 has almost 0 value for new players.
Oh also he's objectively wrong because there are plenty of decks in YGO that let your opponent have "the illusion" like if you set up a good Dracoslayer board where anytime your opponent summons anything they're cut down to size, so if they don't have exactly the right card, then their turn was wasted.
So i play Modern and commander in MTG, Edison and Advance, in yugioh and Wild, BGs, and a little standard in hearthstone. I think the biggest problem with master duel was just the tutorial. The game, and its complexity are fine. If the tutorial started off with like "Your opponents trying to add a card from their deck to their hand! Activate your ash blossom to stop it!". It would have helped alot.
Absolutely. The tutorial doesn’t just need to teach you how to physically perform game actions; it needs to teach you how to win. In that respect, it should definitely have included handtraps and had you perform combos using the various mechanics. There should also be Scripted Duels, where all the random elements are always the same but the player has the choice of what actions to take, to help you figure out when to use handtraps and other interruptions and how to play past interruption.
When I played magic I went up against someone good who'd played for a while. We got to like turn 10 before it ended. In yugioh that game would have been over instantly. I was always going to lose but at least it felt like I was playing and had an opportunity to understand what was going on to better myself next time. That's what he means
I hate the argument: "Im good at this card game so my skills should translate because its played with cards" NO! Its like saying, Im good at football so i should be good at golf because you play with a ball. Yes you play with a ball, but a very different ball and its not the same rules!
Well for most card games, a lot of mechanics and knowledge tend to transfer over. It’s just that Yugioh is radically different from most other card games, especially in its current state. The sports comparison here only really works with Yugioh and most other card games. A Hearthstone player is more likely going to pick up a game like MTG or Shadowverse due to a lot of mechanics or ideas crossing over; most importantly, a mana/energy system. A more apt sports comparison is going from soccer to futsal.
Its because of the way Farfa speaks, even if he does fundamentally agree, he talks as if he's making fun of Randranch for his takes half the time and it comes off as "just git gud" and i can easily see that he felt attacked because of it
@@GoneAngel I was there, he was getting one guy'd, tbh this whole interaction made me consider unsubbing from Rarran the nail in the coffin was the "H0w d0 YoU wInzzzz???" interaction in the teaching yugioh to rarran video, he could have noticed that that win condition was exhausting your opponent's resources, LITERALLY how control decks win in Hearthstone, but he's so desperate to be right he just acts childish,
I absolutely hate Farfa's guts but in this case, he's right. His point was that unlike in Yugioh a noob playing vs someone better will feel as though the skill levels are "more fair" simply because they at least don't die immediately and instead get to feel like they're playing. A bronze will walk into bronze, get full Rika comboed by someone who's recently joined MD but has been playing the deck for years and assume the matchmaking is just fucked.
I mean, yeah, Yu-Gi-Oh is like a fighting game, where you can get punched against the wall to death if you are not good enough and Hearthstone is like Starcraft, where you will think that a missclick or suboptimal decision doesn't put you that much behind but in reality, that will snowball into a stomp if your opponent knows how to punish.
@@Lapshark his YT is fine but his Twitch is super toxic he fills the dead air by berating chat constantly like he will say the most abusive asinine shit ever to random viewers that look up to him but it's fine because he's saying it to a faceless chat instead of actual people. He perma'd me for telling him "use" and "activate" one effect per turn are different so if a "Use" effect gets its activation negated he still cannot use the other one because he was malding about not being able to do so and didn't know why. My reward for answering his question to chat was "Chatting chatting oh my god chat you guys are all so stupid why don't you use something to unban yourself OneGuy OneGuy amirite chat oh my god chatting!"
Imo learning to play YGO is like learning to play fighting games nowadays, sure you can spam everything you have but the best outcome always end up going to training mode and memorise the combos
Except no? Labbing is good, but the most important part is still things like footsies and finding your best button spamming the hell out of it. For example I actually won a match in BBCF using Ragna; And all I did was spam 5B, DP, Gauntlet Hades, and Carnage Scissors. It's great to know your bread and butter combo after a punish or a mix up; But you don't really need to lab.
For two new players in Yugioh, turn 1 won't be all deciding they'll be able to have an interactive back and forth. They will both mess up their combos, and games will last a very long time and be fun and engaging. The problem is that new players cueing into experienced players is not fun. Farfa just means that in games like Chess even if you are playing Magnus Carlsen, you'll at least be able to make a few moves. Whereas in Yugioh, if you're a new player cueing into an experienced player, you won't get a chance to play the game at all.
Reading the card doesn't really help at the end, because even if the card say summon a lvl 3 monster, what monster should I summon that later summon 2 things that later bring a spell thay brings a boss monster? If you don't know the deck, you are playing nothing
@@bl00by_ You also need to know what your opponent's deck/cards do. With no resource limit or set rotation there could be what seems like infinite combos/possibilities from playing any 1 card created in a 20+ year card pool from a new players perspective. The amount of homework needed just to spectate a game let alone play is overwhelming if it has'nt been a dedicated hobby.
they way i think about it is that yugioh compairs WAY MORE to a fighting game than a card game alot of players just pick the box character and wanna smash buttons and have a good fight like that but the moment you go against someone who knows what they are doing your gunna get comboed or zoned out before you even get in and smack a button and you need to learn not just what tools you have to defend yourself but you A actually need to use them which alot of players dont want to cuz they dont think defense is fun OR B you know what they are and want to use them but alot of using it needs you to just go out into the community crack open a book find a friend do something to look into the nuances of WHY and WHEN which you just need to go out of your way to learn
This, i play both YGO and fighting games and they're very similar. I dont think its necessarily a bad thing that you cant pick up both and be a competent player and need to invest more than a super long session (seriously learning to play any game for hours straight is usually not a good idea) to be good at. both can obviously benefit a lot from having the learning tools available through their platform ( i think having a guide/video available with the structure decks is a good idea). YGO being complex and having tons to learn is one of the main appeals for me and the community content (while not as great when i started) is still a great way to learn a lot of yugioh concepts just the like learning content for fighting games is fantastic and helps parse the nuances and complexities. Is YGO perfect? fuck no its got a lot of dumbullshit and recent card design hasnt been helping that but i dont think its as insurmountable as most people make it out to be. If i could teach my sister inlaw( whos not a huge gamer let alone a fighting gamer) how to play fighting games with out investing hours upon hours of time and still have her go from coughing defenseless baby to competent beginner i think most people can learn ygo just fine. Also reading a short paragraph isnt that bad, im not even a book nerd but ive never had as much of an issue with ygo text as other people have.
but thats the problem. Most fighting games nowadays teach how to throw cancel, etc. You don't need to google how to dragon install, you can learn in the practice. mode. MD has no real tutorial, how do you learn Tear in MD? You have to look up a GOOD player, dkayed's build was different than the tcg build. Thats the problem, we don't have an easy way in house to teach new players. Most players have NO IDEA what a meta deck is. And if they do they have to no way to practice it. WHERE is the tutorial on when to use hand traps, when to hand trap, how cost and effects resolve? I'm not asking for a new player to be a god at the game but they should be taught a basic understanding of the game. You can start up MD, learn to set La Jinn and by BRONZE you're playing against Swordsoul.
Except fighting games actually tell you how to use your buttons Anime fighters and Tag fighters are notorious for being suped complicated; But most, if not all modern FG have indepth tutorials on their univesal mechanics and even have dedicated combo trials to see what the characters do. Me and my brother recently got into BBCF, we tried characters and I went with Azrael; At the start you mash, but eventually you find that he has a rekka and it becomes a combo ender. My brother played Tager, because he played Potempkin in GG, so he knows that the command grab is a 180 motion. Skills in fighting games are transferable, whereas no other card game plays even similarly to YGO. Fighting games are hard, but they are not not intuitive; Specially games with auto combos or Tekken. The thought that you "need" to lab for combos is just not true. I won a set in BBCF, where I just used Ragna's 5b, DP, Gauntlet Hades, and Carnage Scissors.
@@boxtupos7718 I disagree with a lot you're saying here. Most fighting games don't have a tutorial that's anymore indepth a basic explanation of the mechanics and even the good ones like SF6 or GGST only scratch the surface when it comes to playing the game on a higher level. Ive watched newbies play fgs and it's usually not as intuitive as you make it seem and I'm sure ygo and other TCGs have transferable skills like figuring out preferable board states, resource management and keeping in mind to play around your opponents cards. I would agree that you don't need to lab combos because starting out it's more important how to position your character and what their good buttons. I tell every Sf newbie that all they need to know is their good poke and Anti air to start, even knowing that puts you ahead of all the other newbies. Just like in MD you don't need to know the meta to get out of rookie rank, I've climbed from rookie to gold plenty of times playing decks like BEWD, DM, Marincess, magical musketeers ECT and have even won against meta decks. Again I'm not arguing that Konami can't put out more learning tools especially to explain things that arent as detailed in the rule book(things like cost/activated effect, target/non target etc)
XD I'll have a more In-depth comment some time later, but ... I forgot his name the HS Player stating: "In what world would a Champion be playing with a Noob" oddly enough that wouldn't be odd at all at least in YGO a noob going to the same locals as a champion or just See Jesse Kolton against that poor kid in 2019.
I played a ton of card games, but casually; Most card games you can actually jump from one another and not feel lost. I played MTG, Pokemon, Hearthstone, Shadowverse, LoR, etc; And these games skills actually gets transferred, some keywords even sort of overlap. In YGO you have to learn an entire new game, every deck seems so busy; Don't get me wrong, doing busted ass combos in YGO is fun, but the game is just not intuitive. Like the information vomit from cards, stops you from actually learning.
Stevie reacting to Rarran reacting to Farfa and MBT reacting to Rarran playing Master Duel for 12 hours. Also Rarran doesn't understand that we Yu-Gi-Oh Players hate our game more than any other player
No way man, some chat said YGO is great, therefore Rarran has the right to say "All YGO Players are up their ass" I'm sure he was partly joking, but that'st he only part I was like "Okay dude, whatever"
I have played casual not competitive YGO since the beginning, i read my cards, doesn't mean i have the foggiest what half of them actually do/can do or the end board i should be aiming for. Pokemon for instance doesn't have that issue, you can honestly learn the game in around an hour of SOLO play and increase your skills over time. YGO just doesn't have that, as there isn't a clear guide from playing the game itself. Using an outside guide/coach isn't meant to get you into a game, it's meant to help you improve your skills once you are into the game. Rush duel actually does a better job as it actually gives you a few turns and every effect is once per turn, so you can slowly learn and as games are quick, you can play more games overall in a short amount of time, increasing your skills in a more natural way.
i do think that it can be still fun it depends on the type of people like you said in a similar video their are different types of format for you to play i feel like it can be fully fun(this is just my opinion and if you dont like it than oh well)
I want to say, I am a guy who never played paper yu gi oh. I played the yu gi oh power of chaos games in like 2006 or something before. I started playing yu gi oh master duel this year. I think from February. I think the game is great and i love the complexity of the game. My first deck was spright, then i played Tear and now I am playing Kash and Purrley. How do I know to play better decks and learn the combos..?? Just common sense. I don't understand this new player argument in this era when everything and every knowledge is just a click away.
I'm mainly an mtg player, but i play a lot of different tcgs. You and MBT have had the most reasonable takes so far. Got a sub from me even though i dont play yugioh. Yugioh needs more reasonable community heads instead of memers and trolls.
@StevieBlunderReal my story with modern is back in like 2013 or 2014 I was trying to piece together melira pod since it was like over 1k. I had it proxied, and was playing it and slow adding pieces. Then they banned pod. So I just never tried building another. When mh2 came out I made a selesnya blink casual af deck just empherating solitude and endurance and eternal witness. It was pretty ass. I mainly just play commander and limited now. I enjoy deckbuiling a lot, so limit is so great. Wish yugioh had a way to draft. I have a six sam edison deck, but no one plays yugioh in my area. When MD dropped I played thunder dragons, but I stopped playing. I played runick a bit a couple of months ago, but advanced format yugioh is just not for me. Although I think runick is a cool and different idea for normal yugioh decks, I think a lot of people hate it.
@@bl00by_lol yea literally everyone has a fucking computer in their pockets but god forbid u use it to learn something on a game ur playing that’s just ridiculous. Why doesn’t the game with an insane about interactions teach me every single interaction?
@@randomcommenthere15 They're the reason why imperm shows which column is negated. They're the reason why the ubisoft formula exists. They need someone to hold their hand and show them everything they need to do.
Ironically, I bought 3 traptrix structure decks, barely changed them for locals, and I got second overall. It was pretty hilarious to keep auto winning due to the fact I can just flip any link decks first monster face down, or just win after using 5 disruption. I didn't even have Zeus. I only had some cheap XYZ's. The most expensive card was a $5 Bagooska
14:03 I get what Farfa was saying, he was basically saying that if you take someone who doesn't know anything about the game besides the basics and someone who knows a whole lot more about the game then the one who knows more will win. Which in the case of Rarran against the Rikka player was the case. It's the illusion of choice in other card games that if you go up against somebody like that which you easily can and maybe even will, then the game was decided when you sit down to play. He said it in a bad way, but I understand his argument.
The qualifier that farfa says at the beginning is the major key, talking about a new player in a slower game against a stronger returning player. In a game like Yu-Gi-Oh if you have no outs you have lost immediately but in games with a mana system you will get at least one turn. But this goes to show the problem with matchmaking, I was diamond in master duel but stopped playing and dropped to rookie. Because of this, when I upgraded my funny lightsworn grass deck with ishizu and tear cards I was getting matched up against new players who were using the link starter deck.
idk how both of you got so confused about the "losing the game before the game starts" when Farfa was clearly talking about how no matter the skill difference of both players a game of magic or hearthstone will always last for a while and have some back and forth while in yugioh this simply does not happen
I think the better way for beginner to learn is to do a progression series, starting with goat, going to GX, edison, XYZ etc... That way you learn slowly and steadily. I've done that with a beginner friend and it really helped him understand the rules etc...
Ngl if it wasnt for duel links release years ago, I would not be playing yugioh today. And thats me playing a custom yugioh format on a discord these days cos the modern game experience of the game was so ass. People looking at the lineup of modern card games, I dont even think other yugioh players would disagree that yugioh is one of the least appealing options with formats, learning curve, affordability etc
They should've released the game like they did YGO back in 2002, slowly rolling out new sets over a couple of months and having Queues for community formats (which should just be made official anyways) as soon as a set, not supported by those low power level formats, are released. All those new players could've started slowly learning the game in the same way (just within a more compressed time window) as all the people starting between 2002 and 2014.
The difference between chess and yugioh/ (most card games) is that in ches you allwais open with the same tools, meanwhile in card games you open a different hand every game, this means that in card games the result of each game depends on rng more than in other kind of games and I think that's a major flaw
I do get Farfas point regarding the Illusion of choice I think. Imagine it like this: You play Hearthstone with a slow control vs a fast aggro deck. You make choices, you play cards, you feel like you are "fighting back" until the aggro player finally overwhelms you. In reality, the conclusion was predetermined all along. Nothing you did during your 5-ish turns until dying mattered, no choice would have changed the outcome. When someone monkeyflips a floodgate on you, it's the same thing essentially, just without the 5 turns of doing stuff that wouldn't have changed a thing. I think what he is trying to say is that this illusion is what keeps new players in the game. They feel like they played the game even though objectively, they really did not contribute to the match's outcome in any way. Of course, not all games is HS are like this, even control vs aggro (well back when I played 5-6 years ago anyway) but once you had soem experience the pattern was obvious. I could often recognise my inevitable demise 2-3 turns before it would happen. Still, a new player will feel like he "played" during these turns, even though he is so far behind in tempo and/or card advantage, there was a 0% chance to come back. Same thing with noob vs pro. The response about "but a noob wouldn't face a pro" just fundamentally missed the entire point.
There is a real discussion to be had with the game as is. Konami seems to think that the game's 2009 where attack stats matter. I don't really remember a point in most games where I had to care about that. We're so beyond that point but they waste time teaching basic shit. No Yu-Gi-Oh! isn't too complex like the boomers say BUT we need to have a bridge for newer players. How to chain certain cards, should you veiler something or imper it? Should you make something c1, or c2? Ppl compare this game to fighting games and that comparison doesn't work tho, because most fighting games have really good tutorials. Where you can set the AI to always guard to learn guard break, to always grab to learn canceling, etc.. In MD there is no place to have a bot spam stuff or craft a hand of like 5 negates for you to go through. Where besides google do you learn that Salads best monster for the longest time was Accesscode? Or that Danger is best played w/an archetype that likes to be discarded (Like Darkworld)? TLDR: Yu-Gi-Oh! think that teaching ppl to set La Jinn and pass in MD will naturally mean new players will spend 20+ hours watching BA man and learn the rest of the fucking game, and not quit the game.
Come to think of it, my most favorite decks are all decks that have a clear gameplan and an end goal. You read generaiders? You immediately know what the plan is. You know whats going on. You read sky strikers? Ok, resource your opponent until Accesscode jumpscare. Runick? Survive, as your opponent runs out of deck. Traptrix? Put up the holes and then gloat like a villain when you bottomless a monster that took 4 materials to summon. Kaiju? Stifle your laughs until your opponent realizes they are playing chess with a pidgeon and you knocked all the pieces to summon a turtle which gave them infinite omni negates But a deck where its incomprehensible? Like galaxy? Whats the galaxy gameplan? They all read like disjointed cards that someone could theoretically freestyle into a rank8, but thats about it. It isnt even complexity, but its "oh, reading only 2-3 cards, I understand what the deck wants to do and how it does it instead of reading a combo guide"
That's a bad example, galaxy's end goal is obviously monke beat down your opponent with photon dragon But most galaxy cards are unplayable, that's why they seems disjointed A good example would be vaylantz, even as a pendulum player I still don't know what their game plan is
Traptrix vernalizer gs ocg summon barrier statue, sometimes mixed with baronne with shs and abyss dweller. How you can call that "Clear gameplan" when a archetype can play 7 different style at once.
Sky striker or sentouki can be played with orcust and others activate engage? ash Activate hornet drone Summon kagari? Inperm Then your opponent Normal summon scrap and send harp.
The illusion of choice point is especially foolish because you do legitimately have a chance in games like magic and hearthstone as a new player, even if we ignore that pairings online tend to be against players of similar levels. A new player thinking well about their lines might improve their win percentage against a good player from like 10 to 30%, which can be rewarding and not like you just lost the game t1, you can also learn where you could improve next time. I'm playing the world championship in magic and two years ago I taught my partner who never played the game before how to play and with some handicaps in deck strength (which are easy to do in paper, and online you have pairing algorithms that help) we legitimately got into a situation where my partner making good decisions for their level was the difference between winning and losing, that's very different compared to just being super confused t1 losing, and not understanding what you could have done differently.
man for me rn i just wish they somehow dealt with the coinflip problem of yugioh, like genuinely its been probably a whole fucking decade or two of almost every deck going first and having considerably more chance going first and they need to fix it somehow
I was playing ranked today (don’t really play MD anymore but wanted to build a deck on my mobile acc) and the tip was like “if your monster gets beat over in atk mode you take dmg! But if you’re in def you’re safe 😊” Imagine if the tips were like “ash the branded fusion”
Ok someone please explain to me WTF IS WRONG WITH A GUIDE like these guys saying “why do you need a guide to play the game” you literally need a guide to play any game on the planet earth to a half decent level so I ask good people of the internet wtf is the problem with looking up how to play the fucking games
DUDE. Keywords LITERALLY fix yugioh’s complexity problem! We can even use the already existing slang that people use competitively, stuff like pop, bounce, spin, stratos, piercing, banish, excavate, foolish, omni, towers, stuff like that. Like anything more complicated than that, like whatever the fuck Vaylantz do, but honestly that would fix most of the card bloat
I play legends of runeterra and Mtg, I know how to play hearthstone but don't like it very much, I learned one piece tcg and Lorcana this week, and I plan to plan pikrnon very soon. I already know yugioh base rules (turn phases, summoning rules, card types etc), but I dont learn Yu-Gi-Oh, because to learn all the insanity modern YuGiOh cards do would be more work than learning every other card game I've fucking played
Me who just bought 3 traptrix structure decks 11:55 💀 I left the game around 2020 wanted to come back thinking that traptrix could be competitive... Hearing that makes me question if that was a right decision hahaha
I think farfa is saying specifically for the NEW PLAYER EXPERIENCE when you're about to get rolled there is at least interactivity that is learnable for the new player in a game where the other dude's not just playing solitaire with mechanics you don't even understand.
16:22 It's really odd to me that both Stevie and Rarran had such trouble wrapping their heads around what Farfa was saying here, it seemed pretty straightforward to me. They both made the same mistake, focusing on the "the game was decided before you sat down" part, when Farfa's point was actually about the "you feel like you did something" part. Farfa wasn't saying that Hearthstone was more predetermined than other games, he was saying that in Hearthstone, unlike Yugioh, even in those cases where the game is predetermined, you feel like you accomplished something. I think Rarran was so pissed off about all the Yugioh fans antagonizing him in chat that he assumed Farfa was criticizing Hearthstone when he was actually praising it.
14:02 I think that Farfa's argument here has been severely misunderstood. I believe what he's referring to really is that in games like Hearthstone it's more difficult to realize small tempo mistakes that lead to you to losing the game several turns later. In Yugioh, if you mess up your sequence, you brick, etc, you are severely punished instantly because you don't get to keep playing. In hearthstone it's physically impossible to lose the game turn 1 or 2, no matter how bad you play it. Your interactions have way less consequences and you win by an accumulation of good small decisions that give you a more noticeable advantage over time. On Yugioh, targeting the wrong card on any selection will probably mean you can't complete the sequence your deck needs in order to work, you'll no longer be able to special summon what you want, protect your field and you basically have to give the turn to your opponent who will most likely destroy your board and win the game on the spot. So yeah, what he means by this "illusion of choice" is that you can totally play a game of hearthstone with no idea of how your deck actually works but by using the core mechanics of the game and enjoy some turns no matter who your opponent is. In yugioh, you need REALLY good understanding of your deck just to barely be able to play. This issue gets even worse considering how it affects skill levels and that if you're new to the game and you face someone who knows a little more about his deck than you it is also going to feel like he's steam rolling you, unlike in Hearthstone, where if you face someone with similar level, a lot of luck factors are going to be involved and any of the two could perfectly win.
