The springs actually do have different functionality. You cannot use the homing attack on the classic springs. And... that's it. But there is a difference!
How is that supposed to make sense it would have been useful if you can use the homing attack on those springs and also Sonic feels slow in cyberspace even when I use the boost he doesn't even feel fast and cyberspace to me are nothing more than filler levels because the only thing you get from them are just portal keys and due to the fact that's they reuse the same designs from Green Hill chemical plant and even sky century why don't they give us the level designs from the adventure games or the storybook games or unleashed or even colors of all people don't you agree that we are tired of the same levels like Green Hill like chemical plant and sky sanctuary over and over again if anything those levels from those previous games never even got in Sonic frontiers or even a motorized design of them
@@JustinJulian-00 First, I want to introduce you to this thing called "Punctuation". Sebond, the Classic Springs are not meant to be useful. They are just meant to be another aspect of the level to keep in mind. Because if you can use the homing attack on them then they are no different from the Modern Spring. So at that point why even have them? Everything else you mentioned is an entirely different conversation.
Fun fact: the spin dash is actually in the PS2/Wii version of Unleashed. If you press the boost button right when GO appears you'll spin dash. Get the timing perfect and you'll also fill up a boost bar for free
Watching this video made me realize how inconsistent this franchise’s game design is and how many moves it doesn’t have anymore, and also how the rules break even with the very same moveset
It will never not piss me off that Sonic doesn’t have the drift in Cyberspace since the left shoulder button (which is used for the Sonic Boom attack in the overworld) doesn’t do anything.
Yeah man Sonic can't even drift in cyberspace like you wanted to be because sonic just goes against the wall if you were trying to turn left or right for example you can only do that in certain areas of cyberspace that should have been one of the main movesets for Sonic so I can drift and tight corners much easier while maintaining my speed
@@sonicdml4175 I know I can slide I just can't drift in certain areas of cyberspace and drifting is all about turning in sharp corners and drifting and sliding is not the same thing
Classic being from a different dimension wouldn’t have been lame if they did what I THOUGHT they were doing with that plot. The phantom Ruby was already doing some weird dimension-y stuff in mania. I was confident the villains Infinte was using were plucked from timelines that they had been victorious in. A chaos that had wiped out all life, a shadow that had followed through with his plans, a zavok that… lost hexed all over the place? Idk I never played lost world. Instead, they’re just… projections? Copies? They’re lame. The phantom Ruby was undermined and a great potential story arc for all four of those villains was missed. Just IMAGINE shadow talking to a past self that didn’t realise Maria’s true last wish…
That's an awful idea. If there are alternate timelines where other outcomes happened, then the events of each game become meaningless. It's the ultimate tension killer. Sonic's victory in any given game means nothing is there's infinite timelines where he lost and everyone died, and vice versa. It's impossible to introduce a multiverse into a series without erasing all meaning from any and all plots.
@@HOTD108_It's basically needing a "main timeline" that stays focused on. With how Sonic goes, the idea'd only be in Forces. Unless manipulated, the other timelines wouldn't matter... Just do it 'cuz it's cool this one time, then move on as Sonic tends to do
When you said "Sonic Moves" I thought you were talking about his dance numbers in those commercials from the 2000s And that's not even mentioning Shadow
Lost World had a lot of cool ideas that I felt like could've worked had Sonic Team actually STUCK with the gameplay they were going for and fleshed it out going forward. Instead they just cowarded out and made Forces, a game specifically created to appeal to as wide an audience as possible.
They said that the show was made to be canon but that after production started the writers of the show at Netflix disregarded pre existing canon and did whatever they wanted
It still pisses me off that parkour has practically been left to rot in Lost World since that's actually a cool mechanic that could have been explored more if they bothered fleshing it out (no I don't count Frontiers, since they only cover certain colored walls.)
In Sonic Lost World there's forgotten move, When Sonic's uncurling from the Spindash and spinning without the Ball Graphic, just hold down the Spindash botton again you literally do this by spinning in the Water without fall it
I've never watched an LSMark video so I was confused as to why he kept getting recommended to me. Now I know it's because him and Splash Dash are the same person lol.
Funnily enough, Frontiers technically goes back to the way the boost gauge fills up in Unleashed in Generations as well because collecting rings while boosting (when you don't have an unlimited boost that is) will fill your gauge back up slowly, so collecting rings while boosting is useful in Cyber Space. Just a fin tidbit. They're going back to how it works in Unleashed and Generations in Shadow Generations, so that's fun. They better have the wall jump in there too.
@11:40-.-Don't worry, the final Avatar solo level is The only level where you can wall jump. It can't be done in any other level, which is why mark forgot about it. And technically, Sonic never did the wall jump, so he is not wrong.
At this point. Sonic has brought back the old games so much at this point that it isn’t even nostalgic for old players anymore. Sega is the opposite of “let the past be the past”
I don’t know why but I’ve always had a love for the Super Peel Out. I think it’s one of the best things to be introduced to a Sonic game but it needs to be in more modern titles!
What good super peel out would do sure you will be super fast when you use it but your left open to enemy attacks I mean it can be optional to put the move in there but it's not the most beneficial move to have because while you spin dash you are more protected from damage from the enemies
@@JustinJulian-00 You can roll immediately after launching from a Peel-Out making you just as protected as with the Spindash but with the Peel-Out's speed, if anything once you start doing that trick the Peel-Out makes the Spindash less useful, other than you still being vulnerable while charging in place which is hardly an issue.
@legoboy7107 Actually, that makes the Super Peel Out worse since you need an additional input to make it more effective. The Spindash gives you speed and protection upon being used. Super Peel Out requires you to quickly press down right after using the move if there is enemies in your way. At this point, it's only main unique trait was the running animation which as of Superstars has become Classic Sonic's full speed running animation.
@@mikeanthony3300 I mean, I don't exactly find pressing down on a dpad to be a particularly difficult challenge to be honest, that seems entirely negligible and also doesn't really impact which move is better in terms of abilities and usefulness in-game, that's an external factor.
I like the way they handled Boost and Spindash in Frontiers. Boost to go fast yet glued to the ground and Spindash to go fast and basically enable physics. I like those options.
@@GUNS_jk just don't use it in cyberspace because otherwise you're not going to get any faster after you use it while you are faster on the islands as long as you have all of your rings
I thought of the idea where the equivalent of Cyberspace in the next game have two styles. One could be Sonic Adventure style and the other the boost gameplay. Like have an in game explanation that Sonic notes that some of the zones he’s going to make boosting too risky explaining why Sonic would switch to the Adventure style. 6:58 That idea is much better though.
Fun Fact! In frontiers, Sonic was actually meant to have the drift and it was removed last minute, BUT THEY SOMEHOW LEFT IT FOR SUPER SONIC. You can literally do it while fighting Giganto in the vanilla game, it's insane
great video! when you pointed out the classic springs showing up in modern games it made me remember how much i hate that the dash panels are falling into the exact same camp like for some reason forces EXPLICITLY ONLY USES the classic dash panel design and then in frontiers it flip flops between them? i specifically remember a section in 1-3 (the only 2D highway level) where it starts out with a classic dash panel, switches to a modern dash panel in another section and then back to a classic one, like, why??? they dont function differently so why flip flop?
Even though they are probably less significant to the evolution of Sonic’s game design compared to the console games, I do think it’s interesting to note how the 8-bit games by Aspect handled evolving Sonic’s gameplay in tandem with the 16-bit games. The way they attempt to evolve the formula and adjust to the limitations of the Master System and Game Gear over time are interesting and smart and they feature additions to the gameplay I’d always have liked to see in mainline. Sonic Chaos was the first game where Tails could use his flight in gameplay and featured both the peelout from CD and the Spindash from Sonic 2 on Mega Drive, it feels like they wanted to make full use of Sonic’s moveset at that point in time and take advantage of ideas that may or may not become mainstay once the higher budget console games released. I especially love how Triple Trouble added to things with letting Sonic briefly curl into a ball out of springs and his fall animation while also accommodating the Game Gear’s inability to load all the rings you drop when getting hit by having only up to 5 or so fall out of Sonic, but you can only loose up to 30 from the counter. Genuinely such an amazing little change for balancing the 8-bit games’ often radical difficulty issues because you can gain enough rings that you can accumulate a sizable health bar for riskier sections of the levels, and be able to spare rings to enter the special stage boxes even having gotten hit, but when you are starting out the level or start to get low you can still end up in that state of risk that makes the system satisfying. Sonic Blast further tuned the system by having you only lose about 10 rings I think which while surely makes the game a lot easier, can’t say that it’s really a bad thing for this game’s case given everything is so chunky and hampered by screen crunch that making he game generally easy to beat and play otherwise is for the best. It also is the only game in the franchise I’ve seen where Rings act as an additional timer that drains away once your air runs out under water. It’s a really cool mechanic for handling Sonic’s whole limited air system, and another small idea I think if the mainline games had would make them feel more satisfying, even if the only level you’ll see it in is constantly snagging you by the balls through vacuum tubes. Holy Shit Blue Marine Zone.
Remember the sweep kick in sonic unleashed? That was straight up pointless and its only use was for destroying furniture/boxes in the hubworld. Also unleashed had the “tap” jump, where if you tap the jump button sonic will do a small jump while keeping your speed. I THINK generations had it too but they got rid of it in future games. And the light dash. Before frontiers it was basically gone since like unleashed. Colors didn’t have it besides using the green wisp, and generations only had the light dash with some specific trails of rings. I don’t even remember if forces had it but frontiers finally brought it back to normal. The bounce bracelet. SA2 had it, 06 had it, and then frontiers kinda brought it back albeit it’s pretty gimped. No idea why those 3 games have it and no others. What about the magic hands in SA2? That serves absolutely no purpose? Dude I can go on and on and on.
Colors and Generations have the short hop as well, I assume it was dropped because Lost World didn't have it and Forces and Frontiers are built off that game for some reason.
Ok, so the classic style springs may have been implemented into lost world and modern stages in forces for nostalgia purposes, but in frontiers, they actually have a distinction: they can’t be locked onto. You can’t homing attack the classic springs.
18:34 actually I think the reason they kept them was to distinguish them from springs that you can homing attack, since you can’t homing attack the classic-style springs
Mannn.... FINALY someone talks about it. I hate how every thing is inconsistant in this franchise. And also the button layout. How the f they can't make a consistant button layout?
I actually like the way the spindash and boost co-exist in Frontiers, and there are trade offs for using one over the other The Spindash has a faster top speed than the Boost, making the Spindash the faster choice on the other hand, The Boost has more sticky-ness to the ground, a much tighter turn, and can stop on a dime, making it a much more controlled speed So it basically becomes a choice of Pure speed or More Control
The rings in Forces dissappearing when they're lost isn't exactly new, the same thing happens in Unleashed, and I think it would've been better this way, since Forces is so easy.
Ok hold up 12:00 about the drift. While I get people like it. But is it REALLY needed now a days? It was only implemented in the boost games because they couldn’t figure out how to make Sonic turn correctly while going at high speed. Now as we see in Frontiers Sonic can make tight turns now. Which of anything that’s a good thing. Sooooo, why do we need it back or want it back? What would be the point of it can Sonic can turn in high speeds now? The only reason it would if they mess up Sonic turning. But again I ask, why in the HFIL would you want them to make Sonic’s Turning crap again? You see, I don’t get this. Someone help me out here cause either I’m dumb or everyone wants Sonic to regress backwards.
I think the thing with Frontiers is that Sonic is inherently slower most of the time so he can make tighter turns easier, the drift is way more useful for a faster Sonic so if they make him faster again in the future, the drift would help a lot
@@Err0_Will Fun fact, if we go by code, Sonic in the Cyberspace stages is actually the fastest Sonic has ever been when compared to the boosting games. It's all in the camera angle.
Getting rid of boost is probably the stupidest thing you could have ever said, spin dash and boost can't be used in tandem but tbf boost is better in literally every way, with spin dash you've got spindash and that's basically it. With boost you got drift, and arial boost. While i like the amount of freedom you get with spindash jump it's extreamly broken and you can just skip levels, with boost as the base mechanic you can't break the game, and thanks to unleash and generations diverging routs are possible and more quick time then previous games
Sonic X shadow Gens really shows the problem with having the moveset being different in every game. It's revealed that you have the option to use the controls Frontiers had in Generations, most notable changes being the change for the homing attack and the boost being on the shoulder button. It's good for people who don't want to hassle with changing their muscle memory when switching between two characters, but when you actually start to think... ....this doesn't work at all. Hear me out. The open zone gameplay of Frontiers never has the same focus on having tight reflexes the same way the previous boost games do, such as using the slide and quickstep. These moves happen to be the most underutalized in Frontiers. Trying to boost with r2 while using the shoulder buttons to quickstep feels awful to do. That's why it's most comfortable to use the boost and quickstep during the squid chase sequences, since you can use the joystick to quickstep instead. It's also why one of the update 2 challenges that involes the quickstep in kronos island feels wrong to do when trying to boost, because it was ONLY built for quickstepping, meaning that sonic team knew that was the case.
18:54 I have a possible explanation on the Motobug thing: -Colors & Generations Motobug is meant to be a design evolution, making it fit the more modern "tech-y" style -Sonic 4 Motobugs are weird like that, because they try to add modern edge to the classic shape (being somewhat emblematic of Sonic 4's identity crisis where it puts a modern coat of paint over classic stuff) -Lost World gives the Badniks a VERY toy-like look, so gotta make the Motobug all cartoon-y then once Frontiers rolls around, they come back to the tech-y look, so the Colors & Generations look it is again (and I do like that look, it is a very solid evolution of the design) question is if Sega intends to commit to that look or make ANOTHER major change due to reinventing Badnik aesthetics again or being in a nostalgia haze
So funny thing about the ring system in forces. You still can’t recollect rings after getting hit, but that’s only a thing in easy mode for some reason. Normal has them function like how they should
8:00 the double jump was originally from Sonic 3 but it was locked behind the electric shield. Then it was part of his base moves in Sonic R and, to my knowledge, didn’t show back up until Colors
I get the dislike of being able to break the level design. But i personaly like it. It opened up alot of creativity, and i loved that. It just made everything feel so natural and if you want to play the level normaly.....then do it. Idk thats just me. I like more open levels which is why i like adventure 1 more then 2. While you still could be creative it felt much more difficult and it ruined a bit of the fun
Man, it's like each game had a different Director making decisions on how it would play instead of Sega *(Sonic Team)* being this singular entity responsible for creating every Sonic game ever and being responsible for all of the game's mechanics not carrying through with each new game.
l say Sonic and the Black Knight has the best boost because it's not dependent on rings or tricks the only thing you need is the red fairies at the beginning and as you level up Sonic you will gain the ability to naturally fill up your own soul surge meter as you run and then you can just boost from there and why hasn't Sonic games done this yet like you're running speed in a Sonic game should naturally fill up the boost meter and when it's full or you have plenty of it then you can use it to your heart's content I hope you agree with what I said like they should make a Sonic game where does spin dash or the boost can either be optional or you can use both to experiment with them because you have to stay still to use a spin dash anyway while boost just acquires you to use while you're moving
Depends on the games. The spindash in sa2 is way less fun than the boost from say, colors, because it’s not all that strong, annoying as hell to use due to having only 2 buttons, and with how linear the level design in sa2 is, there’s not a whole lot of wide spaces where the spindash can really shine like in sa1
They work wonderfully together in Sa1 with the turbo mod. Spindash for combat and variable mobility and boost for limited mobility, both for amazing fun.
I feel like it's very obvious that Classic, regardless of which translation was used was supposed to be interpreted as a seperate dimension from Modern.
13:00 To be fair, the whole thing where you loose only a certain chunk of your rings upon getting hit was already a thing way before Shadow the Hedgehog, Triple Trouble did this back in the Game Gear days IIRC
Frontiers introducing a base sonic and cast combat system opens new avenues. Sonic’s moves like his eagle kick could make a return and chain with the homing attack if with anything. It could even cause a screen shaking explosion as super sonic as good for thought. Sonic’s kicking slashes from frontiers doesn’t have to be a cyber energy exclusive move since theoretically sonic can just kick wind that fast. And speaking of wind Sonic should definitely have more tornado moves. If they wanted to reference something they could have him move around while spinning around like in sonic underground just for the cheeky fuck of it. And that’s just sonic Also fun fact super sonic was accidentally left with the drift in frontiers despite regular sonic not having it outside of that one cyber space mission
Eagle Kick IS in Sonic Frontiers, you just to hold down when doing the basic combo. The combo finished will launch the enemy in different directions depending on what direction you are holding, if you are holding down, Sonic will kick the enemy down into the ground while doing the Eagle Kick.
i'm genuinly surprised rush wasn't mentioned, not only did it include both the spindash and the boost (while gating the boost from bosses you could actually roll in the normal levels so you could save gauge by rolling downhill) it also refilled in the most unique way, tricks. be it rush 1's spamming off any spring, aerial dash pad or rainbow rings or rush adventures finisher system which only rewarded the vast majority of the trick boost when performing a combo finisher which while existing in the first game mostly acted as a way to extend momentum or gain a second jump. i S ranked every rush level so i should know how situational that was i'm not surprised nobody noticed it, and the fact the homing attack was on R was like... wtf?
Here's what I'm thinking: Double Jump w/flip (course correction and extra height in exchange for more vulnerability and less momentum) Air dash/homing attack (dependent on if there's an enemy or spring to target or not) Stomp to shoot down and slide Trigger for crouch a la Mario, used for the roll and spindash Maybe have an extra button/left trigger for a boost meter, but use it for things like drifting and insta cyloop, sonic boom, basically a mana meter.
12:01 I honestly don't understand why they did this, because in the Wii version of Unleashed, you 100% could drift without any context sensitive inputs. You could do it whenever you want if you ran fast enough.
You couldn't play that game with the Wii Remote only though, Unleashed needs the nunchuk, Colors doesn't. Really they shouldn't have done that anyway, 3D games with just a dpad feel bad.
12:36 Super sonic also has a drift which is really weird But I think Kishimoto said sonic was meant to have one And super sonic having one is a remain of the scrapped mechanic
The reason Sonic doesn't have a drift in Frontiers is because the whole point of Drift was to help Sonic made tight turns since he couldn't do that properly during the boost games, but since Sonic already turns well in the open world naturally, they just removed.
@@memiix sonic's twitter made a tweet saying "everything is canon" in response to one of their collaborations and then someone took a screenshot of it isolated and everyone started taking it super seriously for some reason
Yeah NO. Sonic Prime isn't canon, no matter how much they try to push it. If they had consistency between the Sonics then sure, but Prime 'Sonic' is *not* Sonic of the mainline games- and even those are inconsistent!
Honestly of all the forgotten moves, I'd love seeing the Triangle Jump come back, albeit slightly more movement-oriented. The wall-running already was pretty cool. even if it is just more quick-step stuff, and making it a piece of the level would add some more depth to the gameplay besides left and right, or rather, up and down. Imagine say, Egg Fleet got remade, but in those tight corridors, instead of being on a fan that you just move up and down, you have these tight corridors that you have the wall running from, but you use the triangle jump to go to another wall to dodge something that can't be quick-stepped aside. It's heavily reaction-based.
I've only seen it in like a couple fangames I can't think of right now but it would be so cool for sonic to have like a tight corner drift that functions similarly to like Kirby Air Ride or Sonic Riders' Drift
Hey maybe the boost could be fully cut out of sonic's gameplay moving forward and it could work a lot like 06's mach speed sections. Like, say Sonic is trailing a ship in the middle of the ocean or something in the story, and has a actual reason to be going faster than usual, then you could make a nice boost level with a huge focus of spectacle and speed again.
I'm fairly certain some level of inconsistency has affected basically every move in Sonic's arsenal. His basic run and jump aren't immune. Sonic's base speed can vary between games, not to mention Lost World featuring a run button. The Spin Jump was absent from Secret Rings and Black Knight, and in base 06 it didn't even damage enemies. All this doesn't even factor in other moves like the Homing Attack, Bounce, Stomp, Slide, Jump Dash, or Lightspeed Dash. Not to mention all of these moves have completely different visuals and sounds basically every game. I like that the games do switch up the movesets every so often, but a little more consistency would be appreciated, or at least maybe finding a way to incorporate these forgotten moves back into the games.
On what you said about springs, maybe they offer slightly different functions? The Modern springs are very direct, they shoot you exactly where you need to go. However, in the classics, springs were a bit less restrictive - if you hopped on a vertical spring, it could take you up, or you could build up momentum and jump onto it in order to give yourself some good diagonal distance. They feel more like simple physics objects. In Generations and Frontiers, I feel like they lost some of this differentiation since the Classic springs now push you along a path like the Modern springs do, but I still feel that the two types of spring can coexist in the games if they differ in functionality.
I think that since both running and curling up into a ball are pretty core to Sonic's character design, future games should build Sonic's move set using that baseline. How the bounce bracelet never caught on, I'll never know. It has varied utility, fits his core design, and just feels good to do. I think another interesting returning ability would be time break from Secret Rings. It stands to reason that Sonic has heightened reflexes to run as fast as he does. Being able to press a button to slow down time for a couple seconds would help with tricky platforming, reacting to hazards, or timing a hit on a boss's weak point. Sonic should be simple to control but hard to master. Let his friends have the gimmicks that deviate from that baseline.
I think Frontiers showed well how the boost and spin dash can both exist in the same kit for Sonic without making the other redundant. The boost in that game lets you move faster, while keeping the same level of control over sonic, he can turn just as tightly as you want him to, it can be used on walls and in the air, and when in the air, it lets sonic change his direction in an instant and gives him some additional height as well as distance. but in turn it lost its offensive utility. The spin dash in contrast allows sonic to reach even faster speeds and make it easier to take advantage of the physics and geometry of the levels and world, it can deal damage, but its harder to control and can only be activated on the ground. These traits make both the spin dash and boost useful for reaching high speeds but geared for different purposes. The boost being more of a pure movement tool that can be used anywhere while the spin dash is more of an offensive and exploitative tool that you have to find and figure out how and where to make the most use out of it.
